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Nagini's Neville

Ser Barristan Selmy- truly a "True Knight"?

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I often see ppl listing Ser Barry as one of the only current True Knights in the seven kingdoms. But he was complicit in Aeyrs raping Rhaella. So how is that really different from being complicit in Joffrey's beating of Sansa? It's worse. But he has contempt for Jaime for killing the mad king. Jaime's personality often gets a on my nerves, even though he can be really funny, but don't think he is a bad person. The only thing that was bad about him killing Aerys is that he didn't do it earlier. And Jaime was also very young still, while Barry was quite a bit older with much more life experience. The KG first and foremost protects the king of course, but no harm would have come to the king by protecting the queen from being brutally raped. I just don't have a lot of respect for those characters, who are so rigid, when it comes to following rules and can't think a minute for themselves and then also think they are honorable because of it. It's been a minute since I reread Barristan's ADWD's scenes, so I can't remember, if he ever mentions Rhaella, but regardless he still has a low opinion of Jaime.

 

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I just don't have a lot of respect for those characters, who are so rigid, when it comes to following rules and can't think a minute for themselves and then also think they are honorable because of it.

Preach. 

“The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. “You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. “You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

And I’m sure Selmy has had similar experiences. I absolutely agree w/ you, the whole blind obedience and sticking to vows and oaths no matter what is despicable. “It’s not my fault, I was just obeying orders!”. 

Selmy is very dutiful, but doesn’t equal honour. You can have duty and honour, but not always, and not necessarily. 

We have a great example in The Hedge Knight

“And in the midst of it all stood Prince Aerion, resplendent in a red velvet doublet with long dagged sleeves, twisting Tanselle's arm in both hands. She was on her knees, pleading with him. Aerion ignored her. He forced open her hand and seized one of her fingers. Dunk stood there stupidly, not quite believing what he saw. Then he heard a crack, and Tanselle screamed.

One of Aerion's men tried to grab him, and went flying. Three long strides, then Dunk grabbed the prince's shoulder and wrenched him around hard. His sword and dagger were forgotten, along with everything the old man had ever taught him. His fist knocked Aerion off his feet, and the toe of his boot slammed into the prince's belly. When Aerion went for his knife, Dunk stepped on his wrist and then kicked him again, right in the mouth. He might have kicked him to death right then and there, but the princeling's men swarmed over him. He had a man on each arm and another pounding him across the back. No sooner had he wrestled free of one than two more were on him.”

Dunk wasn’t dutiful, he dared to strike a prince. But he couldn’t have behaved more honourably. So much so that Baelor Breakspear sided w/ Dunk in the Trial of Seven that followed. 

At least Selmy is now thinking about how dishonourable some of his choices were in the past.

 

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10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I absolutely agree w/ you, the whole blind obedience and sticking to vows and oaths no matter what is despicable. “It’s not my fault, I was just obeying orders!”. 

Selmy is very dutiful, but doesn’t equal honour. You can have duty and honour, but not always, and not necessarily. 

Dunk wasn’t dutiful, he dared to strike a prince. But he couldn’t have behaved more honourably. So much so that Baelor Breakspear sided w/ Dunk in the Trial of Seven that followed. 

At least Selmy is now thinking about how dishonourable some of his choices were in the past.

 

Great post! You're right with whole duty vs. honor conflict and that it isn't the same. Jon is really great, when it comes to picking "honor" and doing the right thing over duty. It's even more meaningful, when he does, because we know he is so dutiful and it is incredibly hard it is for him, especially, when he believes he is committing sins against the old gods. But it shows his inner moral compass and that makes me really respect a character.

 The Hedge Knight sounds so great- must read that very soon. dunno why i still haven't.

Great, that Barristan is rethinking his dishonorable choices of the past. I must really reread his ADWD scenes. I didn't remember that.

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Great post! You're right with whole duty vs. honor conflict and that it isn't the same. Jon is really great, when it comes to picking "honor" and doing the right thing over duty. It's even more meaningful, when he does, because we know he is so dutiful and it is incredibly hard it is for him, especially, when he believes he is committing sins against the old gods. But it shows his inner moral compass and that makes me really respect a character.

I don’t remember any instance where Jon thinks that to do his duty he has to betray the OG, or sin against them? What I do remember involving decisions he has to make and how these decisions would go against the OG is when he thinks about Stannis’s offer to make him Jon Stark and Lord of Winterfell. And he ultimately rejects Stannis, precisely because it would not be cool w/ the OG, because Mel and Stannis want him to burn the heart tree in Winterfell’s godswood. And I would argue that the decision to give up on things he’s wanted all his life because he can’t bring himself to betray the OG and Winterfell is an extremely honourable one. 

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 The Hedge Knight sounds so great- must read that very soon. dunno why i still haven't.

OMFG!!!! GO GET IT NOW! NOW NOW NOW NOW!

The novellas are amazing, and I love Dunk and want to have his babies. :P

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Great, that Barristan is rethinking his dishonorable choices of the past. I must really reread his ADWD scenes. I didn't remember that.

ADwD, The Queensguard

“Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon’s son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys’s son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.”

 

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1 minute ago, Platypus Rex said:

The "True Knight" of the series will be the wandering mystery knight once known as Sandor Clegane.  

Oh, "wandering mystery knight" - I like it. But he needs to get himself a new helm (and never take it of), if he wants to stay a mystery knight  haha

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8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t remember any instance where Jon thinks that to do his duty he has to betray the OG, or sin against them? What I do remember involving decisions he has to make and how these decisions would go against the OG is when he thinks about Stannis’s offer to make him Jon Stark and Lord of Winterfell. And he ultimately rejects Stannis, precisely because it would not be cool w/ the OG, because Mel and Stannis want him to burn the heart tree in Winterfell’s godswood. And I would argue that the decision to give up on things he’s wanted all his life because he can’t bring himself to betray the OG and Winterfell is an extremely honourable one. 

Yes, his decision to reject WF came to mind as well. Because he has to burn down the heart tree, but also, because he has sworn a sacred oath before a heart tree to be loyal to the NW. So that connects all of his NW duties directly to the Old Gods.

 

"Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this and all nights to come."

 

For example Ygritte. When Qhorin leave Jon with her, he thinks he was ordered to kill her. She is their enemy, he was ordered to, it is basically his duty, it's therefore connected to the oath he swore to the OG (maybe that's not completely true, but I got the feeling, that Jon at least felt that pressure) But he can't do it, his conscience tells him otherwise. And of course later he finds out, he didn't have to kill her to fulfill his duty in the first place.

The same, when he sleeps with Ygritte. He really has no choice here, but he is still blaming himself, because he has sworn to his gods not to father any children and to take no wife. It is of course extremely tricky here, because there are to conflicting "duties" fighting with each another: obeying Qhorin (who tells him it'll all happen for the benefit of the NW) means breaking his Oath to the old gods to be a good NW's brother.

Imo whenever Jon decides to do something out of the norm, where he can't be 100% sure it will be beneficial to the the Watch (even though this is his intention), he is risking not being 100% true to his vows to the Gods. That conflict gets even worse by his brothers making feel disloyal, pressuring him and planting doubts. But he does those things anyway, because his compassion, intellect, conscience and knowledge are telling him it's right: He "works together" with Stannis and accepts his help, he wants to help Arya, he helps and lets the wildlings come through the wall.

If he was just a rigid rule follower, he wouldn't have done any of those actions. And that's why I think he ultimately will play a important role and will be successful, when it comes to fighting the others, because he is a flexible thinker (outside the box) and ultimately his conscience/honor will always win the fight with duty, even though it immensely hard for him at times. Which is also important, since being dutiful is significant quality of a leader, just not being dutiful at all cost and without switching of the head.

 

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True Knight is an ever more interesting concept since reading ASOIAF.   I've only skimmed the answers above, but I saw Sandor Clegane mentioned.  Yes, I think he may be a true knight right along side Brienne and Jamie and Barristan and many others I expect will probably glow with true knightliness by the time the tale is told.  I have to take the characters for their own thoughts and actions where those insights are available.  Is Barristan Selmy a true knight?  Yah I think so.   He was only complicit in crimes as part of his commission.  He's a hero, no doubt there.  Look at Duskendale, look at Mereen.  As I understand what knights are and are supposed to be, based primarily in the Knights of the Round Table where even Lancelot tweaked his duties to suit his desire, Selmy's thoughts and ideals match very well.  I think Jamie's finest hour was his worst and The Hound watched Sansa's beatings as well.  Group complicity in a crime committed by the people KG take orders from doesn't make them lesser knights.  If you read Sandor or Barristan or Jamie or even creepy Hyle Hunt you can see where the men become a whole lot more knightly when they leave the organized hierarchy of knighthood.   Do you think Dany ever imagined Selmy could pull off what he seems to be doing in Mereen?  I didn't and I had the benefit of being in both their heads.  

No argument, all our knights at issue, including Selmy, fall short of being excellent knights 100% of the time.   Bran wanted to be a knight and his good maester told him he could not in light of his disability.  Bran inhabits Hodor to defend and protect and adventure--not to hold Meera though, but I think Bran is a lovely description of my feelings on this matter.   Is it wrong to take Hodor over when the group is attacked.   Probably not.  Is it technically knightly?  You tell me.  

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Oh, "wandering mystery knight" - I like it. But he needs to get himself a new helm (and never take it of), if he wants to stay a mystery knight  haha

Getting a new helm is not a big problem, but I'm not sure "never taking it off" will be necessary, because:

  • His face has been reinjured, and then re-healed, by the Elder Brother, whose abilities are said to exceed those of the maesters.  His face will not look the same.
  • His face may be bandaged.
  • As a brother of the Quiet Isle, he may sometimes wear wool over the lower half of his face.  And winter gives him another excuse.
  • His eyes may not look the same.  When Sansa saw his "grey" eyes, it was in dim light, and they were dilated with drunkenness and rage.  When he is calm, and in daylight, his eyes may appear blue.
  • Tournaments are a perfect occasion for introducing mystery knights, and the next tournament is at the Vale.  Few people at the Vale know Sandor well, except Sansa, and she's a special case (see below).
  •  Anyone inclined to suspect the mystery knight of being "the Hound" will be distracted by the fact that "the Hound" is still active and elsewhere.
  •  Readers inclined to suspect that the mystery knight is Sandor may be distracted by the fact that he is traveling in the company of a shy 12-year old boy who addresses him as "Ser".  They will think this is Pod, and hence that the mystery knight is Brienne (who BTW also wore a bandage over some part of her face when last seen).  Actually it will be Edric Dayne, a lordling with the power to bestow a legendary swords on a worthy "True Knight".  Or so I guess.
  • Sansa spent all her time trying NOT to look at Sandor.  She looked at his face only when forced to do so; yet she has the psychological power to "look without seeing" at things that frighten her.  She is also skilled at recognizing people by their external emblems, which will not help her here.  The one time she did look at Sandor, she focused on his scars and the rage in his eyes - which will have changed.

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

 OMFG!!!! GO GET IT NOW! NOW NOW NOW NOW!

The novellas are amazing, and I love Dunk and want to have his babies. :P

ADwD, The Queensguard

“Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon’s son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys’s son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.”

 

:laugh: Omg I really have to read them now. I have them already in two languages haha 

I dunno why I haven't read them yet. I guess I subconsciously I just wanted to save something nice to look forward to to read during the wait for the big, long, cold winter. 

Babies???? But what about Ser Husband he'll want to learn Ser Duncan and apparently he seems to be quite the tough guy (haha sorry I'll probably will use any change I get to use that expression until the end of my days- that's the kind of dumb humor I have)

Thanks for the quote. I think it's great that GRRM never "forgets" about the flaws of his characters. Selmy was not written as a "True Knight", even if he appears like that on the first glance .

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30 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Is Barristan Selmy a true knight?  Yah I think so.   He was only complicit in crimes as part of his commission.  He's a hero, no doubt there.  Look at Duskendale, look at Mereen.  As I understand what knights are and are supposed to be, based primarily in the Knights of the Round Table where even Lancelot tweaked his duties to suit his desire, Selmy's thoughts and ideals match very well.  I think Jamie's finest hour was his worst and The Hound watched Sansa's beatings as well.  Group complicity in a crime committed by the people KG take orders from doesn't make them lesser knights.  If you read Sandor or Barristan or Jamie or even creepy Hyle Hunt you can see where the men become a whole lot more knightly when they leave the organized hierarchy of knighthood.   Do you think Dany ever imagined Selmy could pull off what he seems to be doing in Mereen?  I didn't and I had the benefit of being in both their heads.  

No argument, all our knights at issue, including Selmy, fall short of being excellent knights 100% of the time.   Bran wanted to be a knight and his good maester told him he could not in light of his disability.  Bran inhabits Hodor to defend and protect and adventure--not to hold Meera though, but I think Bran is a lovely description of my feelings on this matter.   Is it wrong to take Hodor over when the group is attacked.   Probably not.  Is it technically knightly?  You tell me.  

Really interesting thoughts! Thanks for your reply!

I guess Bran is a separate matter for me since he is still a child. And I also think there is a distinct difference between warging into Hodor, because he wants to walk around a bit or warging into him, cause he needs to survive and protect his friends and Hodor himself.

My question however was not so much concerning knighthood in general, but more "true knighthood" ;) Since Selmy is often mentioned as an example of true knighthood.

And I guess it all depends on your definition of what a "True Knight" is. I go with Sansa's definition, since she made up the term:

"True knights protect the weak."

Barristan didn't protect the Rhaella and maybe didn't protect others as well. So he doesn't fit the description.

Yes, the Hound watched Sansa's beatings and he is also no "True knight": "He is no true knight, but he saved me all the same,"

Imo the Hound doesn't fit the definition for a number of reasons. First and foremost, because he didn't seem to protect the weak, before Sansa came along (he said so himself; the Hound is no liar and we also see a couple of examples)

We do however know, that he tried to prevent Sansa's beatings, by giving her advise, lying for her and trying to verbally stop it. I think Sandor was walking the fine line, where you had to "give him (joffrey) what he wants" for a bit, so not to make it accidentally worse. 

But we don't know what Sandor would have done, if they kept beating Sansa bloody, while being naked or if Joffrey would have raped her in such a brutal way like Aerys did to Rhaella. What he did to Rhaella was way worse that, what happened to Sansa.

Brienne however is a "True Knight" up until now imo. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Getting a new helm is not a big problem, but I'm not sure "never taking it off" will be necessary, because:

  • His face has been reinjured, and then re-healed, by the Elder Brother, whose abilities are said to exceed those of the maesters.  His face will not look the same.
  • His face may be bandaged.
  • As a brother of the Quiet Isle, he may sometimes wear wool over the lower half of his face.  And winter gives him another excuse.
  • His eyes may not look the same.  When Sansa saw his "grey" eyes, it was in dim light, and they were dilated with drunkenness and rage.  When he is calm, and in daylight, his eyes may appear blue.
  • Tournaments are a perfect occasion for introducing mystery knights, and the next tournament is at the Vale.  Few people at the Vale know Sandor well, except Sansa, and she's a special case (see below).
  •  Anyone inclined to suspect the mystery knight of being "the Hound" will be distracted by the fact that "the Hound" is still active and elsewhere.
  •  Readers inclined to suspect that the mystery knight is Sandor may be distracted by the fact that he is traveling in the company of a shy 12-year old boy who addresses him as "Ser".  They will think this is Pod, and hence that the mystery knight is Brienne (who BTW also wore a bandage over some part of her face when last seen).  Actually it will be Edric Dayne, a lordling with the power to bestow a legendary swords on a worthy "True Knight".  Or so I guess.
  • Sansa spent all her time trying NOT to look at Sandor.  She looked at his face only when forced to do so; yet she has the psychological power to "look without seeing" at things that frighten her.  She is also skilled at recognizing people by their external emblems, which will not help her here.  The one time she did look at Sandor, she focused on his scars and the rage in his eyes - which will have changed.

Wow you have put a lot of thought into this! This is definitely an interesting theory ^_^ 

I find it very difficult to imagine how Sandor will come back into the story

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56 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Really interesting thoughts! Thanks for your reply!

I guess Bran is a separate matter for me since he is still a child. And I also think there is a distinct difference between warging into Hodor, because he wants to walk around a bit or warging into him, cause he needs to survive and protect his friends and Hodor himself.

My question however was not so much concerning knighthood in general, but more "true knighthood" ;) Since Selmy is often mentioned as an example of true knighthood.

And I guess it all depends on your definition of what a "True Knight" is. I go with Sansa's definition, since she made up the term:

"True knights protect the weak."

Barristan didn't protect the Rhaella and maybe didn't protect others as well. So he doesn't fit the description.

Yes, the Hound watched Sansa's beatings and he is also no "True knight": "He is no true knight, but he saved me all the same,"

Imo the Hound doesn't fit the definition for a number of reasons. First and foremost, because he didn't seem to protect the weak, before Sansa came along (he said so himself; the Hound is no liar and we also see a couple of examples)

We do however know, that he tried to prevent Sansa's beatings, by giving her advise, lying for her and trying to verbally stop it. I think Sandor was walking the fine line, where you had to "give him (joffrey) what he wants" for a bit, so not to make it accidentally worse. 

But we don't know what Sandor would have done, if they kept beating Sansa bloody, while being naked or if Joffrey would have raped her in such a brutal way like Aerys did to Rhaella. What he did to Rhaella was way worse that, what happened to Sansa.

Brienne however is a "True Knight" up until now imo. 

 

 

Totally get where you are coming from.  Brienne is a true knight, but even she has taken to lying and deceit as a result of her commission (to LSH, formerly her very own Lady Catelyn).   She's lying to someone, at any rate, in telling her dear friend Jamie that "The Hound has the girl".  This is what gets him to go with her from his camp at Pennytree.  That's not really in alignment with Sansa's short list of knightly requisites.  I only bring it up to draw a small comparison.  I think the point Martin makes in giving us so many examples of knights is to maybe bend the qualities of knighthood to real flesh and blood humans (or just realistic book characters).  They are just people with a nearly impossible, absolutely improbable job description.  Selmy protected his king and that was his primary life objective as he understood knighthood.  That doesn't make it OK for anyone to listen to rape behind royal bed chamber doors or watch beatings.  It's funny because I have found that Selmy joining Robert's service then leaving in a huff to sneak off to join Dany as the biggest complaint against Selmy's true knighthood.   

The character I have the biggest comprehension/sympathy problems with is Cat.   Even GRRM says she's this great mother.   I thought she was a terrible mother for leaving her babies, one in a coma.  After hearing GRRM say these things about Cat I tried to understand her but I have not yet been successful in seeing her as anything other than what I always saw.  You've got some very valid points about very specific events.  I cringe imagining what the rape of a queen by her mad husband might have sounded like.  We know Jamie thought it was awful and I think he even described some of Rhaella's injuries from same violence.  In this 1 horrible case that you spotlight it seems that Jamie was the only 1 who found the entire thing horrifying.  @kissdbyfire quote from the text where Darry tells Jamie (paraphrase coming up) "We don't protect her from him" sums the mindset of the older Kingsguard up nicely.  

So no, if protecting everyone is the only requirement of a true knight, Selmy definitely does not get the title.  However, if you take all the character's deeds in total over 60 years of life, 50 in active pursuit of knighthood, Barristan does a lot better job than 99% of the knights we've seen in ASOIAF. 

I hope to see whom Sansa deems to be a True Knight by the end of the story.  

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Barristan Selmy is a true knight who has temporarily lost his way when he accepted Robert's pardon.  There is a way to stop his king and still be loyal. So yes, he should have stepped in when King Aerys was raping his wife.  Then again, Ned should have permanently stopped Robert from abusing Cersei.  Ned could have spoken out against Brandon taking advantge of women in his youth.  Neither men are perfect.  But Selmy got a chance to redeem himself and now serves the real queen of Westeros, Daenerys Targaryen.  Barristan now has a path to redemption by serving Daenerys and helping her accomplish whatever she wishes to.

By the way, Jaime is a bad man.  He has been cuckolding his king for what, seventeen years now.  Jaime is scum.  Golden but a scum.

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7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

:laugh: Omg I really have to read them now. I have them already in two languages haha 

I dunno why I haven't read them yet. I guess I subconsciously I just wanted to save something nice to look forward to to read during the wait for the big, long, cold winter. 

The novellas are wonderful, I think you’re going to love them. Both Dunk and Egg are wonderful characters, and I love them both. :wub:

Quote

Babies???? But what about Ser Husband he'll want to learn Ser Duncan and apparently he seems to be quite the tough guy (haha sorry I'll probably will use any change I get to use that expression until the end of my days- that's the kind of dumb humor I have)

:rofl:

It’s not literal, of course! Just a way to say I love him very much. And ser hubby is the gentlest creature you can imagine. :)

 

Quote

Thanks for the quote. I think it's great that GRRM never "forgets" about the flaws of his characters. Selmy was not written as a "True Knight", even if he appears like that on the first glance .

Absolutely. And I like Selmy as a character, but it really annoys me that he is held as this amazing knightly knight when in reality we know he witnessed things and stood by doing his duty, when he should have done something else. 

I like how Martin does this true knights thing... if you think about it, the true knights in the story are the ones who aren’t “proper” knights: Dunk, Brienne, and even Sandor and Jaime.  

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I'm with you in the Barri B being a great knight being bs,  those kg are all scum,  but are we aware that what we're asking Barri B and the others and into what Jaime is trying to transform the KG can only lead to the Praetorian guard right?? 

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12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Wow you have put a lot of thought into this! This is definitely an interesting theory ^_^ 

Thanks.  Also, there are a good number of striking parallels between Brienne and Sandor, and between Edric Dayne and Podrick Payne.  The only sense I can make of them is that they are a setup for identity confusion.  

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I find it very difficult to imagine how Sandor will come back into the story

I would imagine, through the confused eyes of that unreliable narrator and perceiver, Sansa Stark.

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Barristan at the very least can be argued that he learned from his mistakes, he joined the KG under a king he admired, had the worst luck to end up serving Aerys and than Robert and Joffrey, but after that had the sense to observe and test the next monarch before swore himself to Daenerys.

Barristan was not just a yes men, he was able to make Aerys spare the squire in Brandon's group, he was putting himself against a paranoid lunatic, that loved to burn people... Aerys could simply ignore him or even considered he a traitor and executed him. Barristan was putting his life on the line for a boy he didn't even knew.

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18 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Jaime's personality often gets a on my nerves, even though he can be really funny, but don't think he is a bad person.

Barristan ended up serving a mad man by bad luck, he swore himself to a king he admired in Jahearys II, he could,'t predict that he would end up serving a sadistic, lunatic, that was Aerys.

Jaime on the other hand choose by his onw free will to serve Aerys for his own selfishs interests, knowing very well to what he was tying himself. Jaime is by no means a good person and not even himself would try to argue against it. He pushed Brandon from the tower, tried to kill Arya, stayed quiet while Tywin ordered the rape of his sister in law and then lied to his brother.

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