Ser Barristan Selmy- truly a "True Knight"?

[Nagini's Neville]

17 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, unless you think Barristan is an adequate embodiment, the series is still short a True Knight.

Such a transformation might upset "Hound fans" even more, of course.  "Hound fans" probably like Sandor the way he was.  To see any point in this, you have to agree somewhat with Sansa's side of the argument, that knights ought to be True Knights, like those in the stories.

What was the point of Duncan the Tall?  Was he important only because he acquired a friend in high places?  I'm not saying that is necessarily wrong, but I would find such a take on Duncan the Tall to be rather depressing.

Defend the weak?  Give a damn about the peasants being slaughtered?  Rescue a maiden from a dragon, or a giant, or a zombie, or a squisher?

Yeah, I agree. A true knight would be in general hard to find and there is of course also the question, if you can really ask/demand that of a person (defend the weak at risk of their own life)

Oh no, Dunk again... (haven't read the novellas yet and yes, I'm ashamed, but the anticipation for them is the only thing, that gets me through this Long Night, that is the wait for TWOW)

I just meant, that if Sandor comes back, he'll have an important role to play in the overall story. And for all you'll suggestions he'll have to be able to fight. If he can fight there is lots for him to do of course. The question is what will his role/purpose be, if he can't fight?

[Springwatch]

30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Not to upset any Hound fans, but if he really comes back, what exactly would he have to offer except for his fighting skills?

Plenty! He's brave in every sense; his observation is terrific; he has a knack of being in the right place at the right time; he's an excellent judge of human nature; he's seen the game of thrones close-up. He's better than 'not dumb' - he's clever; he can solve problems with words as well as swords.

For evidence of these, consider the times when he

• Saved Loras from the Mountain (=observation, timing, courage)
• Backed up Sansa in the Dontos affair (=quick, clever)
• Fought Beric (=courage)
• Stole Arya from the BwB (=observation, timing)
• 'Persuaded' the boatmen to take them over the river (he managed this with words, not swords - he genuinely seems to want to be better than an outlaw in this phase of his life. He even gives a kind of payment with the receipt from the BwB.)
• Got himself, arms, armour and warhorse plus Arya through an armed camp to the gates of the Twins - disguised as a simple farmer. Even though people knew him, and knew Stranger. (=clever, good judge of people)
• He saw and understood signs of treachery at the Twins, and got  Arya out (=observation, knows game of thrones, courage)

And so on.

(I've not forgotten his bad side, I promise! In fact, I consider the Elder Brother's little speech to Brienne as a kind of a confession by proxy - and hopefully, a marker of repentence.)

[Nagini's Neville]

32 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Plenty! He's brave in every sense; his observation is terrific; he has a knack of being in the right place at the right time; he's an excellent judge of human nature; he's seen the game of thrones close-up. He's better than 'not dumb' - he's clever; he can solve problems with words as well as swords.

For evidence of these, consider the times when he

• Saved Loras from the Mountain (=observation, timing, courage)
• Backed up Sansa in the Dontos affair (=quick, clever)
• Fought Beric (=courage)
• Stole Arya from the BwB (=observation, timing)
• 'Persuaded' the boatmen to take them over the river (he managed this with words, not swords - he genuinely seems to want to be better than an outlaw in this phase of his life. He even gives a kind of payment with the receipt from the BwB.)
• Got himself, arms, armour and warhorse plus Arya through an armed camp to the gates of the Twins - disguised as a simple farmer. Even though people knew him, and knew Stranger. (=clever, good judge of people)
• He saw and understood signs of treachery at the Twins, and got  Arya out (=observation, knows game of thrones, courage)

And so on.

(I've not forgotten his bad side, I promise! In fact, I consider the Elder Brother's little speech to Brienne as a kind of a confession by proxy - and hopefully, a marker of repentence.)

Thanks for these examples . I'm not saying he doesn't have a lot of skills. Especially people skills, intelligence, intuition, experience and courage.  I'm just questioning, if it is going to be enough longterm, if he couldn't fight at all.

And in all these examples his ability to fight played an essential role. Even when he didn't have to fight, knowing that he could is for sure a big source of his courage.

I'm just wondering, what his role could be if he couldn't fight at all anymore. But that I have a hard time imagining what his role will in future books anyway and how he could come back and why.

[Platypus Rex]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And in all these examples his ability to fight played an essential role. Even when he didn't have to fight, knowing that he could is for sure a big source of his courage.

True courage is willingness to face death, in the service of a higher cause.  It is not belief in one's own invincibility.

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm just wondering, what his role could be if he couldn't fight at all anymore. 

I would imagine that, if he returns, his role will involve fighting.  I can't prove that he is not a complete cripple, but I don't see why I should get hung up on that hypothetical.  

Favoring one leg, while your other leg heals, and during your off hours, is just a natural and normal reaction to injury.  It in no way implies the injury is permanent or even particularly serious.  

[Nagini's Neville]

7 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

True courage is willingness to face death, in the service of a higher cause.  It is not belief in one's own invincibility.

Not belief in one'e invincibility, but belief that you can fight your way out of certain situations. There is always a risk involved of course and that requires courage. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Not to upset any Hound fans, but if he really comes back, what exactly would he have to offer except for his fighting skills? I mean he is not dumb, but he is also no Littlefinger and he is also not high-born, so why would anyone care about him? What would be his strength and his function in the overall story?

I agree. If the Hound returns I can't think of anything he would do other than fight. Only this time it will be to protect only. 

Like you said though The George may have more ideas than we do. 

[Darth Sidious]

On 12/28/2019 at 9:56 PM, Platypus Rex said:

The "True Knight" of the series will be the wandering mystery knight once known as Sandor Clegane.  

So killing an innocent boy is honorable?  Sandor Clegane is almost as horrible as his brother.  Just because he showed kindness towards Arya does not make him good.  

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, Dothraki Khal said:

So killing an innocent boy is honorable?  Sandor Clegane is almost as horrible as his brother. 

Did you not notice my use of the future tense?  The "True Knight" ideal comes from the Faith of the Seven, which also deals in the concepts of repentance and redemption.

The setup is ironic.  In many ways, Sandor is the last person one would expect to become a True Knight.  But the clues and setup are there.

Quote

Just because he showed kindness towards Arya does not make him good.  

Of course.  It will take more than that.  Being sentenced to an agonizing death by Arya for the murder of Micah, somehow surviving that agonizing death, then digging a hundred graves, are only the beginning.

[Putin]

Ok first lets not confuse knight with kingsguard. Kingsguard is position of higher rank (importance) than just knight so doing your duty as Kingsguard comes first. I dont know what is exactly said in oath spoken by knights but lets pretend its something like protecting the weak , helping those in need and so on.

Now as member of kingsguard Barristan primary duty is to protect the king not to protect weak or those in need , he swore a oath (assuming they actually swore an oath I need more info on do they actually do this ) so everything else comes in second . He cant hit the king if he is beating someone he is restricted by his kingsguard oath/duty.Breaking a sworn  oath is really dishonorable act.

So Barristan not doing anything to protect the queen does not take away from his honor or knighthood. He was simply in situation where fulfilling both oaths was virtually impossible (protecting/doing no harm to  the king and protecting those in need ( Queen)). But as I said oath to protecting king is more important than simple knight oath so nothing wrong with what Barristan did (by not doing anything).

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 minutes ago, Putin said:

Ok first lets not confuse knight with kingsguard. Kingsguard is position of higher rank (importance) than just knight so doing your duty as Kingsguard comes first. I dont know what is exactly said in oath spoken by knights but lets pretend its something like protecting the weak , helping those in need and so on.

Now as member of kingsguard Barristan primary duty is to protect the king not to protect weak or those in need , he swore a oath (assuming they actually swore an oath I need more info on do they actually do this ) so everything else comes in second . He cant hit the king if he is beating someone he is restricted by his kingsguard oath/duty.Breaking a sworn  oath is really dishonorable act.

So Barristan not doing anything to protect the queen does not take away from his honor or knighthood. He was simply in situation where fulfilling both oaths was virtually impossible (protecting/doing no harm to  the king and protecting those in need ( Queen)). But as I said oath to protecting king is more important than simple knight oath so nothing wrong with what Barristan did (by not doing anything).

I think the issue arises because to be a Kingsguard you have to be a Knight. The vow seems to vary when you become a knight. We have varying vows being sworn by Knights 

 

"in the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave.”  “In the name of the Father I charge you to be just.”  “In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent.”  “In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women.”

We also have: 

 

do you swear before the eyes of gods and men to defend those who cannot defend themselves, to protect all women and children, to obey your captains, your liege lord, and your king, to fight bravely when needed and do such other tasks as are laid upon you, however hard or humble or dangerous they may be?

The Kingsguard oath, as far as I can see is to swear to the following: 

Protect the king from harm or threat

Provide the same KG protection to royals, lovers, mistresses and bastards (but only if so directed)

Follow orders from the king, other royals, the Hand and the Small Council

Serve the king's pleasure

Keep the king's secrets

Protect the king's name and honour

Maintain chastity

I didn't verify these things, someone else listed these with quotes to back them up. I didn't go through them all but they seem reasonable to me. 

So to be a Knight you have to take an oath to be just, brave, defend the young & innocent, those who cannot defend themselves, protect all women, obey your captains, liege lord, king. When your vows contradict each other what is a man to do? I suppose he picks the one he feels more important. There are those who would argue that protecting the Queen was more important than allowing the King to abuse her. 

As to the bolded I don't think that is necessarily true. He could have tried something to stop him, it need not be something violent against the King. Coupling that with the fact that allowing it to happen is breaking his Knight's vows I think it can be argued he did something wrong here. I understand he is in a precarious position but he certainly broke some vows, any which way you look at it. 

 

[Putin]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think the issue arises because to be a Kingsguard you have to be a Knight. The vow seems to vary when you become a knight. We have varying vows being sworn by Knights 

 

"in the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave.”  “In the name of the Father I charge you to be just.”  “In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent.”  “In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women.”

We also have: 

 

do you swear before the eyes of gods and men to defend those who cannot defend themselves, to protect all women and children, to obey your captains, your liege lord, and your king, to fight bravely when needed and do such other tasks as are laid upon you, however hard or humble or dangerous they may be?

The Kingsguard oath, as far as I can see is to swear to the following: 

Protect the king from harm or threat

Provide the same KG protection to royals, lovers, mistresses and bastards (but only if so directed)

Follow orders from the king, other royals, the Hand and the Small Council

Serve the king's pleasure

Keep the king's secrets

Protect the king's name and honour

Maintain chastity

I didn't verify these things, someone else listed these with quotes to back them up. I didn't go through them all but they seem reasonable to me. 

So to be a Knight you have to take an oath to be just, brave, defend the young & innocent, those who cannot defend themselves, protect all women, obey your captains, liege lord, king. When your vows contradict each other what is a man to do? I suppose he picks the one he feels more important. There are those who would argue that protecting the Queen was more important than allowing the King to abuse her. 

As to the bolded I don't think that is necessarily true. He could have tried something to stop him, it need not be something violent against the King. Coupling that with the fact that allowing it to happen is breaking his Knight's vows I think it can be argued he did something wrong here. I understand he is in a precarious position but he certainly broke some vows, any which way you look at it. 

 

As expected thanks for info. I still think Barristan honor can't be questioned here in this situation,he was in position where he simply had to break his oath one or another , not defending those in need or attacking king he is sworn to protect.So its entirely on your own subjective opinion which thing he had to do.                                               That's one way to look at it but lets see another . What is bigger " crime " in this situation not defending the weak or attacking your own king. I don't think first one is even a crime while second is death sentence like Joffrey said to his mother when she gave him slap.                                                   Now with those 2 different point of view I am pretty surely Barristan honor can't be questioned here.What support this is fact that this is bothering Barristan when he remembers it so its not like he didn't care because he not honorable man, Its because of his oath that was clear when reading his chapters. So no foundation to claim he is not honorable or true knight.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 minutes ago, Putin said:

As expected thanks for info. I still think Barristan honor can't be questioned here in this situation,he was in position where he simply had to break his oath one or another , not defending those in need or attacking king he is sworn to protect.So its entirely on your own subjective opinion which thing he had to do.

Yeah, I agree. He was really damned if he did & damned if he didn't because either way he is breaking one vow or another. 

20 minutes ago, Putin said:

That's one way to look at it but lets see another . What is bigger " crime " in this situation not defending the weak or attacking your own king. I don't think first one is even a crime while second is death sentence like Joffrey said to his mother when she gave him slap.

Sure, I just think it would have made Barry look a whole lot better if he had at least attempted to stop it. Not to attack the King but maybe to stand in the way, or try to talk to him. 

21 minutes ago, Putin said:

Now with those 2 different point of view I am pretty surely Barristan honor can't be questioned here.What support this is fact that this is bothering Barristan when he remembers it so its not like he didn't care because he not honorable man, Its because of his oath that was clear when reading his chapters. So no foundation to claim he is not honorable or true knight.

Oh, I don't think Barristan is a bad man, or without honor. I'm just saying it can & is questioned by those that believe he should have done something regardless of the consequences. I'm not one of those people but there are others. 

[Nagini's Neville]

17 hours ago, Dothraki Khal said:

So killing an innocent boy is honorable?  Sandor Clegane is almost as horrible as his brother.  Just because he showed kindness towards Arya does not make him good.  

Give poor old Sandi a break. Michael attacked the prince after all and Sandi was crying the whole way back. It's Ned Stark's fault if he can't distinguish a sob from a laugh

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Give poor old Sandi a break. Michael attacked the prince after all and Sandi was crying the whole way back. It's Ned Stark's fault if he can't distinguish a sob from a laugh

Not sure if you’re being sarcastic? Mycah never fought or attacked Joffrey. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure if you’re being sarcastic? Mycah never fought or attacked Joffrey. 

haha, yeah. I am. I'm trolling, I guess?(that would be trolling, right?) Sorry to annoy, I'm in a very annoying mood today. Thought it was extreme enough to be obvious. I am a Sansa fan, but not to the extent, that I'll take on her unreliable narration as truth. And I also don't think the Hound was crying ( but also didn't want to mock the ppl, who think he did. Just being silly)

I also know his name is Mycah. I was just channeling "avenge your little Michael"

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

haha, yeah. I am. I'm trolling, I guess?(that would be trolling, right?) Sorry to annoy, I'm in a very annoying mood today. Thought it was extreme enough to be obvious. I am a Sansa fan, but not to the extent, that I'll take on her unreliable narration as truth. And I also don't think the Hound was crying ( but also didn't want to mock the ppl, who think he did. Just being silly)

I also know his name is Mycah. I was just channeling "avenge your little Michael"

 

Haha!! Yes you are trolling! Good job! 

[Nagini's Neville]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha!! Yes you are trolling! Good job! 

Yeah, I made it!! Now I'm officially a functioning part of the internet!!! I belong!! 

[Finley McLeod]

On 12/29/2019 at 4:25 AM, Bowen Marsh said:

Barristan Selmy is a true knight who has temporarily lost his way when he accepted Robert's pardon.  There is a way to stop his king and still be loyal. So yes, he should have stepped in when King Aerys was raping his wife.  Then again, Ned should have permanently stopped Robert from abusing Cersei.  Ned could have spoken out against Brandon taking advantge of women in his youth.  Neither men are perfect.  But Selmy got a chance to redeem himself and now serves the real queen of Westeros, Daenerys Targaryen.  Barristan now has a path to redemption by serving Daenerys and helping her accomplish whatever she wishes to.

By the way, Jaime is a bad man.  He has been cuckolding his king for what, seventeen years now.  Jaime is scum. Golden but a scum.

Ser Barristan is now on the right track and that is what's important in his plot.  He has seen his past mistakes and now serves Queen Daenerys Targaryen.  She forgave him and that is also important.  Eddard is definitely not any more moral than Barristan.  Jaime is one of the most despicable men to ever wear the uniform of the KG. Ser Barristan is almost the hero that Ser Willem was.

[kissdbyfire]

36 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I also know his name is Mycah. I was just channeling "avenge your little Michael"

And I thought your autocorrect was as dumb as mine!

[Nagini's Neville]

15 minutes ago, Finley McLeod said:

Ser Barristan is now on the right track and that is what's important in his plot.  He has seen his past mistakes and now serves Queen Daenerys Targaryen.  She forgave him and that is also important.  Eddard is definitely not any more moral than Barristan.  Jaime is one of the most despicable men to ever wear the uniform of the KG. Ser Barristan is almost the hero that Ser Willem was.

What exactly makes Jaime that despicable? Not saying he is a really good guy, but I lately also don't find him, that evil anymore as I once did. But maybe I'm forgetting something important.