Ser Barristan Selmy- truly a "True Knight"?

[Finley McLeod]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

What exactly makes Jaime that despicable? Not saying he is a really good guy, but I lately also don't find him, that evil anymore as I once did. But maybe I'm forgetting something important. 

 

Well, he accepted Robert's pardon and all the while screwed his wife behind his back.  He is Kingsguard and he was betraying his king every night.  He boxed himself into a corner, got seen by a kid, and tried to murder that kid.  Worst of all, he swore to protect King Aerys and he murdered him.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What exactly makes Jaime that despicable? Not saying he is a really good guy, but I lately also don't find him, that evil anymore as I once did. But maybe I'm forgetting something important. 

I doubt you missed anything. Jaime will be fine and dandy, the truest knight who ever trued, once he joins forces with Queen Daenerys Targaryen. [/s]

[Nagini's Neville]

19 minutes ago, Finley McLeod said:

Well, he accepted Robert's pardon and all the while screwed his wife behind his back.  He is Kingsguard and he was betraying his king every night.  He boxed himself into a corner, got seen by a kid, and tried to murder that kid.  Worst of all, he swore to protect King Aerys and he murdered him.  

Except for Bran all of that doesn't make a bad man to me. Quite the contrary actually - if your boss is an asshole or straight up evil and insane to me it shows character to not follow him and his rules blindly. Oaths are worthless, if they are given to someone, who turns out to be immoral and a bad person.

I'm not saying that jaime is amazing ( and he for sure isn't the brightest necessarily, not dumb either, just to impulsive), just compared to a lot of other men, who are raping and torturing ( like Robert and Aerys for example), he just isn't that bad. 

Even when it comes to pushing Bran, that was of course awful, but he isn't just walking around murdering children for the heck of it. (He for example wouldn't have beaten Sansa.)

That for example is the difference between the murder of Shae and the attempted murder of Bran. If Shae lived or died, there would be no difference for Tyrion, but if Bran lives or dies could mean life or death For Jaime and his whole family.

I agree with what GRRM had to say about it:

"At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting. I don’t have any kids myself, but I’ve talked with other people who have. Remember, Jaime isn’t just trying to kill Bran because he’s an annoying little kid. Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I’ve asked people who do have children, “Well, what would you do in Jaime’s situation?” They say, “Well, I’m not a bad guy – I wouldn’t kill.” Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he’s going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .

Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, “Yeah, I would kill someone else’s child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent.” These are the difficult decisions people make, and they’re worth examining."

and

"Obviously a lot of people, when Jaime throws Bran out the window, and we like Bran, we've seen his good points, tend to think that makes Jaime a bad guy. But then you understand, if you understand the situation, if Bran goes back and tells what the saw, and is believed, Jaime will be put to death, his sister will be put to death, and there's an excellent chance that his own children will be put to death.

So I said to my friend, what would you do if some other eight year old kid was in a position to say something and you knew that would mean the death of your own young daughter. And he said, that eight year old kid is dead! And this is what we would consider a moral man.

So how do you make that choice? The abstract of the morality vs. the lives of your own children. I mean, I don't know that I'm a prostelitizer who says this is the answer to that, but I have to question the painful, difficult question, the difficulty of the choice, that's what I think makes powerful fiction."

[Nagini's Neville]

19 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I doubt you missed anything. Jaime will be fine and dandy, the truest knight who ever trued, once he joins forces with Queen Daenerys Targaryen. [/s]

I love how everyone has their own person, who'll turn out to be a "True Knight"   I by now actually also believe Jaime is a much better person, that most other men in the 7 Kingdoms

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I love how everyone has their own person, who'll turn out to be a "True Knight"   I by now actually also believe Jaime is a much better person, that most other men in the 7 Kingdoms

No, I was just being sarcastic. Everyone who is touched by Dany's light suddenly becomes awesome.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 29. Dezember 2019 at 8:36 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Barristan ended up serving a mad man by bad luck, he swore himself to a king he admired in Jahearys II, he could,'t predict that he would end up serving a sadistic, lunatic, that was Aerys.

Jaime on the other hand choose by his onw free will to serve Aerys for his own selfishs interests, knowing very well to what he was tying himself. Jaime is by no means a good person and not even himself would try to argue against it. He pushed Brandon from the tower, tried to kill Arya, stayed quiet while Tywin ordered the rape of his sister in law and then lied to his brother.

I don't think Jaime knew that at all though. He was just 15 after all, when he joined the KG. And how could he have known how awful Aerys truly was prior joining the KG? And we don't know what he would have done with Arya, if he had found her that night. Just because he was suddenly afraid of what he might have done, doesn't mean that he for sure would have harmed Arya. I wrote about Bran in #63

And as far as I remember he didn't know, that Tysha was/would be be gang-raped. But his lie to Tyrion... yeah there I agree with you. That was horrible. And it annoys me so much, when Jaime and Tyrion suddenly feel the strong need to obey Tywin  and through that seriously hurt others especially, while we simultaneously know, if they really don't want to, when it is important enough for them, they are capable of not obeying Tywin.

[Nagini's Neville]

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

No, I was just being sarcastic. Everyone who is touched by Dany's light suddenly becomes awesome.

haha okay. That makes much more sense now  I was wondering, why Jaime would exactly join Dany, especially since he is the KS. She might probably not have him. Yeah, the Daenerys' protection squad is strong here  

[Putin]

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I agree. He was really damned if he did & damned if he didn't because either way he is breaking one vow or another. 

Sure, I just think it would have made Barry look a whole lot better if he had at least attempted to stop it. Not to attack the King but maybe to stand in the way, or try to talk to him. 

Oh, I don't think Barristan is a bad man, or without honor. I'm just saying it can & is questioned by those that believe he should have done something regardless of the consequences. I'm not one of those people but there are others. 

I know its just some people are too quick to judge without objectively loooking into situation  I can understand their point that would be mine first reaction too, but overall after really analyzing situation I cant agree with them at least not in this situation.

 

 

[Springwatch]

On 1/1/2020 at 9:41 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Thanks for these examples . I'm not saying he doesn't have a lot of skills. Especially people skills, intelligence, intuition, experience and courage.  I'm just questioning, if it is going to be enough longterm, if he couldn't fight at all.

And in all these examples his ability to fight played an essential role. Even when he didn't have to fight, knowing that he could is for sure a big source of his courage.

True.

On 1/1/2020 at 9:41 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm just wondering, what his role could be if he couldn't fight at all anymore. But that I have a hard time imagining what his role will in future books anyway and how he could come back and why.

Hard to say. The most obvious solution is as a commander of troops. Jaime, Tyrion, Dany and Stoneheart are all weak fighters who lead armed men. Or he could be a castellan, like Ser Rodrick. This is not the solution I'm going to bet on though.

Foreshadowing says he does fight again. One very weird thing about these books is the way trees are repeatedly compared to soldiers - it happens a lot if you look out for it, and I think says something about the future wars in the north, wars against winter.

Arya has a totally freakish and impossible scene of play-fighting in a tree. Fighting the tree, or maybe fighting ghosts in a tree. Makes no sense whatsoever, unless it's there for foreshadowing. And if it is - well then, Sandor is another person with a scene beating the seven hells out of trees.

We don't yet know how tree power will manifest itself, but it's going to be exceptionally odd because trees experience time differently. That oddness could bypass the injury problem.

[Arthur Peres]

23 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I don't think Jaime knew that at all though. He was just 15 after all, when he joined the KG. And how could he have known how awful Aerys truly was prior joining the KG? And we don't know what he would have done with Arya, if he had found her that night. Just because he was suddenly afraid of what he might have done, doesn't mean that he for sure would have harmed Arya. I wrote about Bran in #63

And as far as I remember he didn't know, that Tysha was/would be be gang-raped. But his lie to Tyrion... yeah there I agree with you. That was horrible. And it annoys me so much, when Jaime and Tyrion suddenly feel the strong need to obey Tywin  and through that seriously hurt others especially, while we simultaneously know, if they really don't want to, when it is important enough for them, they are capable of not obeying Tywin.

Jaime cleary knew what Aerys was, the Duskendale defiance had already happened, Aerys was already know as mad and Tywin was the Hand of the King and was already enduring several humiliations by Aerys, Jaime would need to dumber than Hodor to not notice. Jaime still went on to swear the KG oaths to a mad man, for his own selfish reasons, without any intention to hold those vows.

Jaime knows himself, he already pushed Bran of the Tower, killing kids is not above his moral code, so he would killed Arya for sure given the chance.

[frenin]

22 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jaime cleary knew what Aerys was, the Duskendale defiance had already happened, Aerys was already know as mad and Tywin was the Hand of the King and was already enduring several humiliations by Aerys, Jaime would need to dumber than Hodor to not notice. Jaime still went on to swear the KG oaths to a mad man, for his own selfish reasons, without any intention to hold those vows.

 

Well, to Jaime's credit, the teen Jaime we're talked about only had in his mind Swords and Cersei so it's entirely reasonable that he never heard or more importantly listened about nothing about that,  Jaime himself never gives any hint of kowing what Aerys was prior serving under him and when that happens, he's just bullied into obedience by his "brothers".

He still joined to bang Cersei so that's not so good.

 

22 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 Jaime knows himself, he already pushed Bran of the Tower, killing kids is not above his moral code, so he would killed Arya for sure given the chance.

Agree here, i think it's just wishful thinking that Jaime wouldn't have killed Arya, or Edmure's kid for that matter,  pre maimed Jaime is just Ceresi's tool, not that he goes around killing them but certainly doesn't seem above him and maimed Jaime is playing to be Tywin in the Riverlands.

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 1/3/2020 at 6:26 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

I don't think Jaime knew that at all though. He was just 15 after all, when he joined the KG. And how could he have known how awful Aerys truly was prior joining the KG? And we don't know what he would have done with Arya, if he had found her that night. Just because he was suddenly afraid of what he might have done, doesn't mean that he for sure would have harmed Arya. I wrote about Bran in #63

And as far as I remember he didn't know, that Tysha was/would be be gang-raped. But his lie to Tyrion... yeah there I agree with you. That was horrible. And it annoys me so much, when Jaime and Tyrion suddenly feel the strong need to obey Tywin  and through that seriously hurt others especially, while we simultaneously know, if they really don't want to, when it is important enough for them, they are capable of not obeying Tywin.

Jaime is not even grey.  His heart is black.  Having a point of view does not make him a hero.  He's one of the bad guys. 

[Platypus Rex]

3 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Jaime is not even grey.  His heart is black.  Having a point of view does not make him a hero.  He's one of the bad guys. 

Agreed.

[Arthur Peres]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well, to Jaime's credit, the teen Jaime we're talked about only had in his mind Swords and Cersei so it's entirely reasonable that he never heard or more importantly listened about nothing about that,  Jaime himself never gives any hint of kowing what Aerys was prior serving under him and when that happens, he's just bullied into obedience by his "brothers".

 

Well, Jaime saw Aerys at Harenhall, the guy hadn't cut his finger nails or his beard, and was malnourished. Just looking at him would give hints that he cleary wasn't normal.

[Nagini's Neville]

 

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Agree here, i think it's just wishful thinking that Jaime wouldn't have killed Arya, or Edmure's kid for that matter,  pre maimed Jaime is just Ceresi's tool, not that he goes around killing them but certainly doesn't seem above him and maimed Jaime is playing to be Tywin in the Riverlands.

Pushing Bran is not comparable to killing Arya. There was a legitimate reason for pushing Bran. It was self defense/protection. I'd say Jaime killing Arya falls under the same cover as "would have Robert raped Lyanna?" "Would the Hound have killed/raped Sansa?" 

We all have our own opinions and we'll never know for sure.

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Well, Jaime saw Aerys at Harenhall, the guy hadn't cut his finger nails or his beard, and was malnourished. Just looking at him would give hints that he cleary wasn't normal.

Joining the KG wasn't an exactly well thought out plan of his. He is extremely impulsive and also was just 15 at the time and desperate to lose his sister-lover. His love for Cersei is like an addiction.

I just don't think that makes him truly evil.

[300 H&H Magnum]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

 

Pushing Bran is not comparable to killing Arya. There was a legitimate reason for pushing Bran. It was self defense/protection. I'd say Jaime killing Arya falls under the same cover as "would have Robert raped Lyanna?" "Would the Hound have killed/raped Sansa?" 

We all have our own opinions and we'll never know for sure.

A legitimate reason for pushing Bran!  That one is almost as outrageous as the excuses a few of the people here use to defend Jon Snow and Arya Stark.  So why exactly was Bran a threat?  Because he accidentally saw Jaime and Cersei doing something they shouldn't be doing.  Jaime and Cersei made that happen.  I don't like Bran but I have to say he was a victim here.  

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Agreed.

Hm, but I thought you like the Hound. He definitely isn't any better, than Jaime.

[frenin]

5 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Well, Jaime saw Aerys at Harenhall, the guy hadn't cut his finger nails or his beard, and was malnourished. Just looking at him would give hints that he cleary wasn't normal.

Normal?? Not a chance,  that he knew in what deep shit he was agreeing to?? Not  a chance either,  he would have never  donned that pretty cloak then.

 

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Pushing Bran is not comparable to killing Arya. There was a legitimate reason for pushing Bran. It was self defense/protection. I'd say Jaime killing Arya falls under the same cover as "would have Robert raped Lyanna?" "Would the Hound have killed/raped Sansa?" 

We all have our own opinions and we'll never know for sure.

Maybe but later on, Jaime doubles the bet by threatening with killing Edmure's babe... after he had spent an entire chapter going on and on about how one always should carry their words, that and the fact that he totally meant it there and after that he rather plesantly thinks about if Genna would keep saying that Tyrion is Tywin's real kid after seeeing what he pulled off.

I don't think the guy is evil, i think he's pretty selfish but that is both not evil and acceptable given how low the bar is,  but i think he's just reckless and act without thinking twice,  he may have killed both Arya and Edmure's child for a spur of the moment situation to later on regret his entire life...  But sure, we all have our own opinions here and never know.

[Platypus Rex]

11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Hm, but I thought you like the Hound. He definitely isn't any better, than Jaime.

No.  I don't like "the Hound".  "The Hound" is, or was, a bad person.  

The difference is, I see clues of a possible redemption arc for Sandor.  I see no such clues for Jaime.

Also, I am taking into account the fact that GRRM likes to surprise his readers.  Sandor is the last person one would expect to become a True Knight.  Therefore (and because of other clues) I think he will become a True Knight.

People talk about Jaime's redemption arc, but I have no idea what they mean.  I think what they mean is that, since no man is a villain in his own point of view, therefore no character with a point of view is a villain.