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Ser Barristan Selmy- truly a "True Knight"?

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Not what I was trying to say at all

Well you said I interjected myself. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

am completely unrepentant.  I do not think that anything I have said or done is blameworthy.  There is no redemption arc for me, assuming I have done anything wrong (which I don't think I have).

Whether it's wrong or not it's childish. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Note that I'm not insulting myself (any more than I was insulting you, when I said you were unrepentant).  I'm only illustrating the abstract idea that one cannot have repentance (and by further extension, one cannot have redemption or a redemption arc) without an acknowledgment that one's actions are blameworthy.  And if one is right in one's assessment that one has done nothing blameworthy, then no redemption, or redemption arc, is needed

I was joking when I said my favorite insult was unrepentant. Calling someone ignorant, stupid, etc is insulting them whether you think so or not. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

But I think Jaime's choice was indeed blameworthy.  And I see no repentance by him, and by extension, no redemption arc for him

That's cool. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

And I'm not going to change my mind just because you put yourself in Jaime's shoes.  Be as offended as you like

I'm not offended by your opinion on Jaime or by your insults. I was just pointing out that rather than debating the topic at hand you insult the poster. Clearly that's the extent of your discussion & debating skills. 

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On 1/8/2020 at 1:23 AM, Dofs said:

Jaime clearly didn't notice that Lannisters were already about to enter the Throne Room because Westerling and Crakehall took him by surprise, it's plainly said in the text. And it's perfectly possible because Jaime entered the Throne Room (which is enormous) through the backdoor while Westerling and Crakehall through the main entrance - they entered the room from different sides and didn't see each other beforehand.

 

The castle had already fallen when Jaime entered through the backdoor, it seems hard to not notice it.

 

 

On 1/8/2020 at 1:23 AM, Dofs said:

 Jaime knew that Aerys was about to lose but how soon he had no idea: half an hour, hour? And during that who know what would have happened, another pyromancer could have come and Aerys could have given another order because Rossart was taking too long. 

So Jaime could knock him out, tied him, kidnapp him... but he went there took his sweet time and enjoyed the killing.

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On 1/11/2020 at 7:33 PM, frenin said:

The castle had already fallen when Jaime entered through the backdoor, it seems hard to not notice it.

The castle had not yet fully fallen, Jaime remembers that the fighting was still going on when he was caught by the Lannister forces in the Throne Room. That means that once the Lannisters entered into the castle walls, it's not like they were free to go wherever they wanted, they still had to capture building by building inside. Jaime has thus entered the Throne Room from the part of the castle that the Lannisters haven't reached yet. He and his father's forces went from the opposite directions and met in the Throne Room. Also, again, Westerling and Crakehall caught him by surprise. Jaime had no intention to be seen killing his king, his plan was to kill him and escape with people wondering who did it. That by default indicates that Jaime had no idea at what positions the Lannister forces were and did not expect them to come that soon. You keep ignoring this point but it's pretty cut and dry. Jaime didn't know where the Lannisters were.

Quote

So Jaime could knock him out, tied him, kidnapp him... but he went there took his sweet time and enjoyed the killing.

First of all, as I've already explained, Jaime had no idea what the situation was outside. He could have captured him and then a bunch of loyalists would have come and freed him. And why risk it? To save Aerys' life for some hours or a day? Not sure what is even the point of Jaime tying him, kidnapping him or whatever.

And took his sweet time and enjoyed the killing? What are you even talking about, from where are taking all this? Jaime has literally grabbed him and slashed his throat straight away. You are just starting to invent stuff. And the only information that Jaime gives us about his thoughts on killing Aerys at the moment was that he thought how easy it was to kill a king and that it should not be so, nothing about enjoying anything. Though even if he enjoyed it, so what, Aerys was a disgusting creature that surely deserved to die anyway.

Edited by Dofs

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

The castle had not yet fully fallen, Jaime remembers that the fighting was still going on when he was caught by the Lannister forces in the Throne Room. That means that once the Lannisters entered into the castle walls, it's not like they were free to go wherever they wanted, they still had to capture building by building inside. Jaime has thus entered the Throne Room from the part of the castle that the Lannisters haven't reached yet. He and his father's forces went from the opposite directions and met in the Throne Room. Also, again, Westerling and Crakehall caught him by surprise. Jaime had no intention to be seen killing his king, his plan was to kill him and escape with people wondering who did it. That by default indicates that Jaime had no idea at what positions the Lannister forces were and did not expect them to come that soon. You keep ignoring this point but it's pretty cut and dry. Jaime didn't know where the Lannisters were.

Jaime remembers that the loyalist were still dying in the armory and the serpentine and Lorch and Clegane were scaling Maegor's holdfast, those are the only places that he knew there were about to fall yet and yes, Jaim does is caught by surprise but that indicates miscalculation, not lacl of knowledge about where they were, he just believed he would do it before they reached him.

 

 

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

First of all, as I've already explained, Jaime had no idea what the situation was outside. He could have captured him and then a bunch of loyalists would have come and freed him. And why risk it? To save Aerys' life for some hours or a day? Not sure what is even the point of Jaime tying him, kidnapping him or whatever.

And took his sweet time and enjoyed the killing? What are you even talking about, from where are taking all this? Jaime has literally grabbed him and slashed his throat straight away. You are just starting to invent stuff. And the only information that Jaime gives us about his thoughts on killing Aerys at the moment was that he thought how easy it was to kill a king and that it should not be so, nothing about enjoying anything. Though even if he enjoyed it, so what, Aerys was a disgusting creature that surely deserved to die anyway.

The point is arguing about the idea that Jaime had to kill Aerys as if that was his only option, it wasn't but he did want to do it.

Jaime arrives there, he informs Aerys about Rossart's dead, he then kills him, i don't argue about the fact that Aerys deserved it or not, i don't have any problem with him killing him.

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36 minutes ago, frenin said:

Jaime remembers that the loyalist were still dying in the armory and the serpentine and Lorch and Clegane were scaling Maegor's holdfast, those are the only places that he knew there were about to fall yet

Along with all of that Jaime in his recollection also mentions how Starks were entering the city at the moment, which Jaime couldn't have known back then. Hence loyalists dying in the armoury and Loch and Clegane scaling Maegor's holdfast while he was in the Throne Room wasn't something he knew back then, it's something he found out later. It's now, when he recalls the event somewhere in Riverlands during his journey with Brienne, that he knows that when he was killing Aerys, people were fighting for the armoury, the Maegor's holdfast was getting scaled and Ned's army was entering King's Landing. He didn't know any of that when all of it was happening.  

36 minutes ago, frenin said:

yes, Jaim does is caught by surprise but that indicates miscalculation, not lacl of knowledge about where they were, he just believed he would do it before they reached him.

It would have indicated a miscalculation if Jaime was in any rush but he wasn't. He simply walked in with no hurry, and killed Aerys with a normal pace. And then got caught at that very moment. The fact that Lannister forces might enter at any moment was clearly something that Jaime did not consider at all. 

36 minutes ago, frenin said:

The point is arguing about the idea that Jaime had to kill Aerys as if that was his only option, it wasn't but he did want to do it.

Jaime arrives there, he informs Aerys about Rossart's dead, he then kills him, i don't argue about the fact that Aerys deserved it or not, i don't have any problem with him killing him.

And I've addressed that. Jaime had other options but other options were too risky and also pointless? Why would Jaime even bother to try keep him alive and not kill him there? What is the point? 

My main point was that saying that he 'took his sweet time and enjoyed the killing' is simply false.

Edited by Dofs

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On 1/1/2020 at 3:26 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Well, unless you think Barristan is an adequate embodiment, the series is still short a True Knight.

Such a transformation might upset "Hound fans" even more, of course.  "Hound fans" probably like Sandor the way he was.  To see any point in this, you have to agree somewhat with Sansa's side of the argument, that knights ought to be True Knights, like those in the stories.

What was the point of Duncan the Tall?  Was he important only because he acquired a friend in high places?  I'm not saying that is necessarily wrong, but I would find such a take on Duncan the Tall to be rather depressing.

Defend the weak?  Give a damn about the peasants being slaughtered?  Rescue a maiden from a dragon, or a giant, or a zombie, or a squisher?

 

As a reader who finds the Hound to be an interesting character; I think he would have to change in some ways.  If he continued to be the "Hound" of the first few books, he would kill himself through fighting and/or drinking.  Sandor's sojourn on the Quiet Isle is probably just what he needs.  I think he might discover a genuine religious vocation, or decide to join the Faith to do penance.  

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