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Ser Barristan Selmy- truly a "True Knight"?

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59 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

The missing element is repentance.  Whether 2 handed Jaime would have done this, I have no idea.  But it is beside the point.  It is just Jaime doing different stuff, in different context, because of different circumstances.  And was not Jaime always a fearless man-of-action?

Except that isn't it. Jaime is doing things that are out of character for him to do. 

59 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Except there are clues that Sandor might be repentant.  We know pretty certainly that Jaime is unrepentant.

Well, firstly I agree there are clues that Sandor might be repentant. But if the clues to Jaime's repentance are not actually clues to his repentance but are only Jaime acting a different way in a different circumstances then there aren't clues to Sandor's repentance either. There is only Sandor behaving differently in different circumstances. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

None of which is definite without access to his internal thoughts.  Like I said, they are only (arguable) clues

They are arguable clues but I agree with your take on them. What I'm confused about is how you can determine Sandor is following a redemption arc when we don't have his internal thoughts & don't know for certain he is even with the Elder Brother & at the same time determine Jaime's actual difference in behavior is not a redemption arc but him just doing different things in different scenarios? 

I don't necessarily think Jaime would have NOT pushed Bran out of the window if it happened now but I do think that much of his behavior after losing his hand is not behavior 2 hand Jaime would have exhibited. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

But I don't think "redemption" means "he does not need to be redeemed because he never did anything wrong".  Nor does it merely mean he goes on to do other things because he no longer faces the same temptations.  Something must change internally, to imply that, if faced with the same circumstances, you would not make the same choice.  

No, I don't think a redemption arc is he doesn't need to be redeemed because he never did anything wrong either. There would be no possible way for a redemption arc if there weren't anything to be redeemed for. 

He doesn't just go on to do other things because he isn't faced with the same temptations. Sandor is not going to be in the exact same situation again either. Jaime is recognizing Cersei's toxicness & greatly respects Brienne. He tried to end a siege against his enemies with no blood shed. He went back to save Brienne - something that 2 hand Jaime would never even have thought about because his only care was for Cersei. He is evolving as a person & while he has not made the entire evolution (and may not ever) there are certainly clues that he is attempting to redeem himself. 

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Barristan chose to join the Kingsguard and with that choice come privileges like a job for life but it also comes with giving up the freedom to act freely.  He knew all of that going in.  Therefore, he was not wrong to allow King Aerys to do as he wanted.  That was not the role of the Kingsguard.  They have a very defined role, to protect Aerys.  Joining the Kingsguard is not like taking a job as a retail clerk.  It comes with heavy obligations and limitations.  Selmy knew that going in and therefore he is more correct to not interfere with Aerys' domestic problems.  

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

After Edmure surrendered?

4 hours ago, frenin said:

If he didn't. 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He originally joined the KG only in an effort to be close to Cersei. He later decides he wants to be a true member of the KG I guess. I don't recall him saying that but he starts to behave more like one, because he is attempting to redeem himself. 

He never says he wants to be Tywin. 

 

- He wants to be a true KG  and that's what he says both to his father and Cersei.

 

Quote

[...] Lord Tywin glanced at Jaime’s stump again. “You cannot serve in the Kingsguard without a sword hand—” “I can,” he interrupted. “And I will. There’s precedent. I’ll look in the White Book and find it, if you like. Crippled or whole, a knight of the Kingsguard serves for life.” “Cersei ended that when she replaced Ser Barristan on grounds of age. A suitable gift to the Faith will persuade the High Septon to release you from your vows. Your sister was foolish to dismiss Selmy, admittedly, but now that she has opened the gates—” “—someone needs to close them again.” Jaime stood. “I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me, Father. No one ever asked me if I wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but it seems I am. I have a duty—” “You do.” Lord Tywin rose as well. “A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he’ll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei. Oberyn Martell perhaps, once I convince Lord Tyrell that the match does not threaten Highgarden. And it is past time you were wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead—”  “NO!” Jaime had heard all that he could stand. No, more than he could stand. He was sick of it, sick of lords and lies, sick of his father, his sister, sick of the whole bloody business. “No. No. No. No. No. How many times must I say no before you’ll hear it? Oberyn Martell? The man’s infamous, and not just for poisoning his sword. He has more bastards than Robert, and beds with boys as well. And if you think for one misbegotten moment that I would wed Joffrey’s widow …” “Lord Tyrell swears the girl’s still maiden.” “She can die a maiden as far as I’m concerned. I don’t want her, and I don’t want your Rock!” “You are my son—” “I am a knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard! And that’s all I mean to be!” Firelight gleamed golden in the stiff whiskers that framed Lord Tywin’s face. A vein pulsed in his neck, but he did not speak. And did not speak. And did not speak.

 

[...] Jaime took off his cloak and hung it from a peg on the wall. “I talk to Lord Tywin every day.” “Must you be so stubborn? All he wants …” “… is to force me from the Kingsguard and send me back to Casterly Rock.”

 [...] “Lord Tywin has not asked for my approval. I can talk to him, but he will not listen …” “He will if you agree to leave the Kingsguard.” “I’m not leaving the Kingsguard.”

 

 

- At the very first time he wants to come clean with Cersei and the kids and the Realm. without caring or realizing that he wants her to sign their death warrant and is embittered when Cersei obviously says no.

 

Quote

If Cersei wants another child, I’ll give her one … and this time I’ll hold him, and the Others take those who do not like it. Robert was rotting in his grave, and Jaime was sick of lies.

“Her Grace is in mourning. And why would she be wanting to see the likes of you?” Because I’m her lover, and the father of her murdered son, he wanted to say.

“This was folly.” Cersei pulled her gown straight. “With Father in the castle … Jaime, we must be careful.” “I am sick of being careful. The Targaryens wed brother to sister, why shouldn’t we do the same? Marry me, Cersei. Stand up before the realm and say it’s me you want. We’ll have our own wedding feast, and make another son in place of Joffrey.” She drew back. “That’s not funny.” “Do you hear me chuckling?” “Did you leave your wits at Riverrun?” Her voice had an edge to it. “Tommen’s throne derives from Robert, you know that.” “He’ll have Casterly Rock, isn’t that enough? Let Father sit the throne. All I want is you.” He made to touch her cheek. Old habits die hard, and it was his right arm he lifted. Cersei recoiled from his stump. “Don’t … don’t talk like this. You’re scaring me, Jaime. Don’t be stupid. One wrong word and you’ll cost us everything. What did they do to you?”

“He is your son …” “He is my seed. He’s never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them.” “To keep them safe! You as well. How would it have looked if my brother had played the father to the king’s children? Even Robert might have grown suspicious.” “Well, he’s beyond suspicion now.” Robert’s death still left a bitter taste in Jaime’s mouth. It should have been me who killed him, not Cersei. “I only wished he’d died at my hands.” When I still had two of them. “If I’d let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell

 

His sister fought back tears. “Jaime, you’re my shining knight. You cannot abandon me when I need you most! He is stealing my son, sending me away … and unless you stop him, Father is going to force me to wed again!” Jaime should not have been surprised, but he was. The words were a blow to his gut harder than any that Ser Addam Marbrand had dealt him. “Who?” “Does it matter? Some lord or other. Someone Father thinks he needs. I don’t care. I will not have another husband. You are the only man I want in my bed, ever again.” “Then tell him that!” She pulled her hands away. “You are talking madness again. Would you have us ripped apart, as Mother did that time she caught us playing? Tommen would lose the throne, Myrcella her marriage … I want to be your wife, we belong to each other, but it can never be, Jaime. We are brother and sister.” “The Targaryens …” “We are not Targaryens!” “Quiet,” he said, scornfully. “So loud, you’ll wake my Sworn Brothers. We can’t have that, now, can we? People might learn that you had come to see me.

 

“Be my Hand,” she pleaded, “and we’ll rule the Seven Kingdoms together, like a king and his queen.” “You were Robert’s queen. And yet you won’t be mine.” “I would, if I dared. But our son—” “Tommen is no son of mine, no more than Joffrey was.” His voice was hard. “You made them Robert’s too.” His sister flinched. “You swore that you would always love me. It is not loving to make me beg.”

 

All while he still want to be an honorable KG

 

After Genna's famour remark, he starts wondering aout how his father would've handled things.

 

Quote

[...] Edwyn bristled. “If my lord of Piper means to imply—” “I don’t imply, Frey. I say what I mean straight out, like an honest man. But what would you know of the ways of honest men? You’re a treacherous lying weasel, like all your kin. I’d sooner drink a pint of piss than take the word of any Frey.” He leaned across the table. “Where is Marq, answer me that? What have you done with my son? He was a guest at your bloody wedding.” “And our honored guest he shall remain,” said Edwyn, “until you prove your loyalty to His Grace, King Tommen.” “Five knights and twenty men-at-arms went with Marq to the Twins,” said Piper. “Are they your guests as well, Frey?” “Some of the knights, perhaps. The others were served no more than they deserved. You’d do well to guard your traitor’s tongue, Piper, unless you want your heir returned in pieces.” My father’s councils never went like this, Jaime thought,

[...] With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin’s son?

 

 

And how can one forget Goldenhand the Just??

 

Quote

No Wodes appeared, nor any of their smallfolk, though some outlaws had taken shelter in the root cellar beneath the second brother's keep. One of them wore the ruins of a crimson cloak, but Jaime hanged him with the rest. It felt good. This was justice. Make a habit of it, Lannister, and one day men might call you Goldenhand after all. Goldenhand the Just.

 

I don't really know how is he going to redeem himself, nor why he should,  is he going start to honoring his vows?? Is he going to start caring for others who aren't Cersei or himself, or is he going to stop being a self centered arrogant??

I think that would  destroy his charm. 

 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Idk what Tywin or Randyll did but I can guarantee they wouldn't have refrained from storming the castle because of a vow sworn to Catelyn at sword point. Him not wanting to waste lives points toward him being compassionate. 

Who knows, a Lannister pays his debts and all that and Jaime is as pragmatic as Tywin there, he is not caring much about compassion but about keeping troops alive,  just as Addam Marbrand or Edwyn Frey, i don't really see much difference there.

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53 minutes ago, frenin said:

If he didn't

Maybe he would've & maybe he wouldn't but I think he knew Edmure was not going to call his bluff. 

54 minutes ago, frenin said:

He wants to be a true KG  and that's what he says both to his father and Cersei

That isn't what he said. He said he is a member of the KG & that's all he means to be. He doesn't say anything of being a true KG. There is a difference. At any rate he originally joined because he wanted to be near Cersei, now that he is going through his redemption he does likely want to be a true KG. 

58 minutes ago, frenin said:

All while he still want to be an honorable KG

Again, you are putting words in his mouth. He doesn't say anything of being an honorable, true member of the KG but doesn't the whole passage you quoted go to show that Jaime is changing? He is changing the way he looks at & thinks about things. He is showing regret for the way things are. 

59 minutes ago, frenin said:

After Genna's famour remark, he starts wondering aout how his father would've handled things

That hardly means he wants to be like him. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

don't really know how is he going to redeem himself, nor why he should,  is he going start to honoring his vows?? Is he going to start caring for others who aren't Cersei or himself, or is he going to stop being a self centered arrogant

Almost everything you quoted says he is trying to redeem himself. He specifically says he is applying justice. He has already stopped caring for Cersei to an extent & started caring for others. I honestly don't know how you can quote the passages you did & not see that?

You said he changed his mind all the time. He joined the KG to be close to Cersei & then stated later, in the quote you provided, that he did not want to be heir to Casterly Rock, that he meant to remain a member of the KG. I agree he is starting to take his vows more seriously & has ambition to live up to the honor he believes is wearing that white cloak but this isn't changing his mind. 

He never said or even implied he wanted to be Tywin, I don't know how you get that from that passage so when he says he wants to be "Goldenhand the Just" he hasn't changed his mind about anything. 

He tells Cersei he doesn't want to keep sneaking around, wants her to be his Queen & wants to basically tell the world. Does he ever say he doesn't want that? I don't recall him ever arguing against any of those things & think it is probable that Jaime was always willing to tell the world & that Cersei was the one arguing against it, so again, no mind changing. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Who knows, a Lannister pays his debts and all that and Jaime is as pragmatic as Tywin there, he is not caring much about compassion but about keeping troops alive,  just as Addam Marbrand or Edwyn Frey, i don't really see much difference there

Sure a Lannister always pays their debts but there isn't another Lannister save maybe Tyrion who would consider this a debt. Also how do you know he isn't caring much about compassion? Wanting to keep troops alive is compassion. 

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1 hour ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Selmy knew that going in and therefore he is more correct to not interfere with Aerys' domestic problems.  

So, what you’re saying is that Barristan was correct to stand by and do nothing while a deranged mad man raped and beat and clawed and bit his wife. 

I. Can’t. Even. :rolleyes:

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12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe he would've & maybe he wouldn't but I think he knew Edmure was not going to call his bluff. 

 

Was it a bluff now?? He had to storm the Castle if Edmure didn't play along, that much is evident, not was he thinking it was a bluff there.

 

 

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That isn't what he said. He said he is a member of the KG & that's all he means to be. He doesn't say anything of being a true KG. There is a difference. At any rate he originally joined because he wanted to be near Cersei, now that he is going through his redemption he does likely want to be a true KG. 

Again, you are putting words in his mouth. He doesn't say anything of being an honorable, true member of the KG but doesn't the whole passage you quoted go to show that Jaime is changing? He is changing the way he looks at & thinks about things. He is showing regret for the way things are. 

I don't know, he's ashamed of sitting of the same chair Barri B and the others sat, he does not want to bang Cersei in the Lord Commander's chambers,  how can that be reconciled with him not wanting to become a true KG?? Especially after he banged her in the same place Joff laid dead. how can be both a KG and come clean be even possible??

Never denied Jaime is changing, i denied he's going to a redemption arc and i  find it difficult to believe being him as self centered as always.

 

 

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That hardly means he wants to be like him. 

He never said or even implied he wanted to be Tywin, I don't know how you get that from that passage 

 

Quote

[...] With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin’s son?

 

 

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Almost everything you quoted says he is trying to redeem himself. He specifically says he is applying justice. He has already stopped caring for Cersei to an extent & started caring for others. I honestly don't know how you can quote the passages you did & not see that?

 

He wants to be considered better, i agree on that, but he still is the same, he still revolves around Cersei,  first because her negative about coming clean and later about her cheating on him,  he still uses his vows to get off things he doesn't really want to do or be, Casterly Rock, Handship... but he's perfectly ready to ignore said oaths if suits,  him going after Brynden because he knows he's dangerous. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know how you get that from that passage so when he says he wants to be "Goldenhand the Just" he hasn't changed his mind about anything. 

No, i say quite the opposite, he changes his mind many times.

 

 

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He tells Cersei he doesn't want to keep sneaking around, wants her to be his Queen & wants to basically tell the world. Does he ever say he doesn't want that? I don't recall him ever arguing against any of those things & think it is probable that Jaime was always willing to tell the world & that Cersei was the one arguing against it, so again, no mind changing. 

As i said, that's completely impossible with him just wanting to be a KG how is that even possible??

 

 

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure a Lannister always pays their debts but there isn't another Lannister save maybe Tyrion who would consider this a debt. Also how do you know he isn't caring much about compassion? Wanting to keep troops alive is compassion. 

Don't think Tyrion would, i think Tywin's pride may do wonders.

Why is compassion exactly?? If you want to spare them and allow them to live other day and allow them to return to them familes ok, but if you just things that their deaths are simply a waste and they can be used better in other things, that's just logistics.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Was it a bluff now?? He had to storm the Castle if Edmure didn't play along, that much is evident, not was he thinking it was a bluff there.

I'm not saying it was a bluff - it very well may not have been. I'm saying Jaime was counting on Edmure to not call him on it. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I don't know, he's ashamed of sitting of the same chair Barri B and the others sat, he does not want to bang Cersei in the Lord Commander's chambers,  how can that be reconciled with him not wanting to become a true KG?? Especially after he banged her in the same place Joff laid dead. how can be both a KG and come clean be even possible??

Never denied Jaime is changing, i denied he's going to a redemption arc and i  find it difficult to believe being him as self centered as always

I agreed he probably wants to be a true KG but he hasn't explicitly stated it & it doesn't really follow that this came about because he "changed his mind often" or whatever you said. It fits into his redemption arc: not behaving as a true KG, not carrying about vows to wanting to be a true KG & caring about his vows. It's not like he just changes his mind all the time. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin’s son?

All he is doing is likening his actions to something that Tywin may have done. This does not mean or imply in the slightest he wants to be Tywin. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He wants to be considered better, i agree on that, but he still is the same, he still revolves around Cersei,  first because her negative about coming clean and later about her cheating on him,  he still uses his vows to get off things he doesn't really want to do or be, Casterly Rock, Handship... but he's perfectly ready to ignore said oaths if suits,  him going after Brynden because he knows he's dangerous. 

He attempts to be better by coming clean about his relationship with Cersei initially. He decides if they have another child he will hold this one, be a father to it. Cersei denies him. I don't know what you mean by "he still revolves around Cersei, first because her negative about coming clean and later about her cheating on him" Yes he thinks about her cheating on him, that doesn't mean his life still revolves around Cersei. He denies he call for help remember? 

LOL Refusing to be heir to Casterly Rock & refusing to be hand of the king is not "using" his vows to get out of something he doesn't want to do. It's upholding his damn vows! 

I have no idea what you are on about with the last line. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

No, i say quite the opposite, he changes his mind many times.

I know you say that but that doesn't make it true. You stated it but you haven't proved it. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

As i said, that's completely impossible with him just wanting to be a KG how is that even possible??

It isn't & that's why it isn't done. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Don't think Tyrion would, i think Tywin's pride may do wonders.

Are you suggesting Tywin would have upheld an oath sworn to Catelyn Stark by sword point? 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Why is compassion exactly?? If you want to spare them and allow them to live other day and allow them to return to them familes ok, but if you just things that their deaths are simply a waste and they can be used better in other things, that's just logistics.

We don't know what he wants exactly but saving lives is saving lives & thinking of others & their lives is compassion. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Going back to the whole thing w/ vows, and duty vs. honour.. The argument that the knights of the KG knew they were supposed to protect, defend and obey the king no matter what, and should therefore have no problem whatsoever being witnesses to the rape, abuse, and torture of innocents is a dumb as fuck argument.

But it does raise an interesting question... The argument is dumb because, in the case of Aerys’s KG, some/many/all but Jaime joined before Aerys became king. Selmy and Hightower w/o a doubt, Grandison very likely. I don’t think we know when Dayne, Gaunt, Darry, Martell, and Whent joined. The point remains, the men who swore their KG vows to a different king, say Aegon V or Jaehaerys II, didn’t expect to find themselves in service of a deranged and cruel mad rapist. And herein lies [one of the] problem(s) w/ strict adherence to vows and blind obedience. 

Since the OP is about Selmy, let’s look at his case. He joined the KG when Aegon V was king. And then, many years later, he is serving and protecting the Mad King and witnessing all sort of aberrant and disturbing behaviour. Saying that he should have sucked it up and kept to his vows is just plain wrong, and IMO there’s no other way of looking at it, unless one supports the notion that kings should be allowed to do whatever they want, to whomever they want. Which is, IMO, total bollocks. 

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not saying it was a bluff - it very well may not have been. I'm saying Jaime was counting on Edmure to not call him on it. 

I think it’s impossible to tell whether it was a bluff or not, as I don’t know that Jaime himself knew what he would have done, had Edmure not complied. Truth be told, I think he might have found himself in a position where he would have thought he had no alternative but to follow through w/ the threat. 

I also think it was a gamble... everyone was aware of how Jaime dealt w/ Ryman Frey and his empty threats to hang Edmure. Jaime was very clear when he said only an idiot will make threats he’s not ready to carry out. So, he rolled the dice, counting on Edmure not calling him out on it. And it worked. 

5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

All he is doing is likening his actions to something that Tywin may have done. This does not mean or imply in the slightest he wants to be Tywin. 

Yup. It means the opposite. 

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think it’s impossible to tell whether it was a bluff or not, as I don’t know that Jaime himself knew what he would have done, had Edmure not complied. Truth be told, I think he might have found himself in a position where he would have thought he had no alternative but to follow through w/ the threat. 

Yeah I agree. It would have been interesting to see what he did in the end. 

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I also think it was a gamble... everyone was aware of how Jaime dealt w/ Ryman Frey and his empty threats to hang Edmure. Jaime was very clear when he said only an idiot will make threats he’s not ready to carry out. So, he rolled the dice, counting on Edmure not calling him out on it. And it worked. 

Absolutely & had it not worked he very well may have done what he said. 

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yup. It means the opposite.

Yep. 

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22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

LOL Refusing to be heir to Casterly Rock & refusing to be hand of the king is not "using" his vows to get out of something he doesn't want to do. It's upholding his damn vows! 

 

Being hand does not conflict with the KG vows,we already have 3 hands that were KG, and as Tyrion said, Jaime will run from every oportunity to rule.

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4 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Being hand does not conflict with the KG vows,we already have 3 hands that were KG, and as Tyrion said, Jaime will run from every oportunity to rule.

Not wanting to rule is not the same thing as using his vows to get out of something he doesn't want to do. If his vows don't conflict with it & he doesn't want to do it he simply doesn't want to do it. If his vows do conflict with it & he says so then he he is upholding his vows. 

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29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But it does raise an interesting question... The argument is dumb because, in the case of Aerys’s KG, some/many/all but Jaime joined before Aerys became king. Selmy and Hightower w/o a doubt, Grandison very likely. I don’t think we know when Dayne, Gaunt, Darry, Martell, and Whent joined. The point remains, the men who swore their KG vows to a different king, say Aegon V or Jaehaerys II, didn’t expect to find themselves in service of a deranged and cruel mad rapist. And herein lies [one of the] problem(s) w/ strict adherence to vows and blind obedience. 

 

I agree with you here.

But Dayne mus have joined the KG during Aerys reign, since he was born around 260.

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4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not wanting to rule is not the same thing as using his vows to get out of something he doesn't want to do. If his vows don't conflict with it & he doesn't want to do it he simply doesn't want to do it. If his vows do conflict with it & he says so then he he is upholding his vows. 

Even as a kid, I was teached that we cannot do only what we want.

When Jaime refuses being hand, he is letting Cersei to be the one ruling and making all decisions for the realm, and this is very irresponsible. Jaime is a man behaving as a kid, in a world that kids are forced to act like grow ups.

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33 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Even as a kid, I was teached that we cannot do only what we want.

When Jaime refuses being hand, he is letting Cersei to be the one ruling and making all decisions for the realm, and this is very irresponsible. Jaime is a man behaving as a kid, in a world that kids are forced to act like grow ups.

I can agree with that. That's definitely one of his character flaws, that he does that sometimes. 

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44 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not wanting to rule is not the same thing as using his vows to get out of something he doesn't want to do. If his vows don't conflict with it & he doesn't want to do it he simply doesn't want to do it. If his vows do conflict with it & he says so then he he is upholding his vows. 

also true. Man, I am not able to catch up with you guys. you all posted so much

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34 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not saying it was a bluff - it very well may not have been. I'm saying Jaime was counting on Edmure to not call him on it. 

On that i agree.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agreed he probably wants to be a true KG but he hasn't explicitly stated it & it doesn't really follow that this came about because he "changed his mind often" or whatever you said. It fits into his redemption arc: not behaving as a true KG, not carrying about vows to wanting to be a true KG & caring about his vows. It's not like he just changes his mind all the time. 

I already said why i think he changes his mind often,  he indeed selects his vows, that's why he apparently sees no problems in being a KG and come out clean with Cersei.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He attempts to be better by coming clean about his relationship with Cersei initially. He decides if they have another child he will hold this one, be a father to it. Cersei denies him. I don't know what you mean by "he still revolves around Cersei, first because her negative about coming clean and later about her cheating on him" Yes he thinks about her cheating on him, that doesn't mean his life still revolves around Cersei. He denies he call for help remember? 

 

And all that while being a KG, or while they don't have sex in the Lord Commander's chambers everything is fine??

He revolves around Cersei always, first because he wants to return to her and come clean, later because he's totally pissed because Cersei cheated on him and that's why he denies her call for help, because he's butthurt. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

All he is doing is likening his actions to something that Tywin may have done. This does not mean or imply in the slightest he wants to be Tywin. 

If he had just thought on Tywin's actions i'd agree, but he thinks on Genna's words regarding his father and brother and wonders that if Genna had been there to see him, she'd keep saying that Tyrion is Tywin's real son... instead of him.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 LOL Refusing to be heir to Casterly Rock & refusing to be hand of the king is not "using" his vows to get out of something he doesn't want to do. It's upholding his damn vows

 

How is he upholding his damn vows by keep pursuing Cersei?? I agree on Casterly Rock but both Ser Ryam Redwyne and Criston Cole disagree with you on the Handship, there is no contradiction there.  But Jaime does not want to rule, marrying Margaery or Casterly Rock, he however does want Cersei.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Are you suggesting Tywin would have upheld an oath sworn to Catelyn Stark by sword point? 

Depending on how prideful he finds himself that day.  Don't know.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It isn't & that's why it isn't done. 

Not because he doesn't want it as he keeps telling to Cersei, but because Cersei sees it as madness.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We don't know what he wants exactly but saving lives is saving lives & thinking of others & their lives is compassion. 

 

It isn't. Is logistics, Jaime is not moved by altruism, he's moved by the oath and later for the price of taking RR,  saving lives so they can die for you in another and better suited occasion isn't compassion, it's pragmatism.

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14 minutes ago, frenin said:

On that i agree.

 

 

I already said why i think he changes his mind often,  he indeed selects his vows, that's why he apparently sees no problems in being a KG and come out clean with Cersei.

 

 

And all that while being a KG, or while they don't have sex in the Lord Commander's chambers everything is fine??

He revolves around Cersei always, first because he wants to return to her and come clean, later because he's totally pissed because Cersei cheated on him and that's why he denies her call for help, because he's butthurt. 

 

 

If he had just thought on Tywin's actions i'd agree, but he thinks on Genna's words regarding his father and brother and wonders that if Genna had been there to see him, she'd keep saying that Tyrion is Tywin's real son... instead of him.

 

 

 

How is he upholding his damn vows by keep pursuing Cersei?? I agree on Casterly Rock but both Ser Ryam Redwyne and Criston Cole disagree with you on the Handship, there is no contradiction there.  But Jaime does not want to rule, marrying Margaery or Casterly Rock, he however does want Cersei.

 

 

Depending on how prideful he finds himself that day.  Don't know.

 

 

Not because he doesn't want it as he keeps telling to Cersei, but because Cersei sees it as madness.

 

 

It isn't. Is logistics, Jaime is not moved by altruism, he's moved by the oath and later for the price of taking RR,  saving lives so they can die for you in another and better suited occasion isn't compassion, it's pragmatism.

Ok, I tap. We are going around in circles about the same things & we aren't going to agree so here is my "agreeing to disagree" post. 

 

:cheers:

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23 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, firstly I agree there are clues that Sandor might be repentant. But if the clues to Jaime's repentance are not actually clues to his repentance but are only Jaime acting a different way in a different circumstances then there aren't clues to Sandor's repentance either. There is only Sandor behaving differently in different circumstances. 

Fair enough.  If we knew as little about Jaime as we know about Sandor, it might be possible to form reasonable theories speculating that Jaime is now repentant.

Maybe, if all we knew about Jaime's encounter with Lancel in the Sept, was that such an interview occurred, we could speculate all kinds of things.  We could speculate, for instance, that some kind of repentance and move for redemption took place.  And perhaps that would be a reasonable theory.

Unfortunately, we know a little too much about Jaime, and we know he is not repentant.  That's the difference.

Also, to make a long story short, the details differ, and I have a different sense of Jaime's arc.  I don't think GRRM is going to do the same thing twice.  

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Posted (edited)
On 1/5/2020 at 4:44 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, killing an innocent child is morally wrong 100% of the time. 

If I were to interpret the phrase "morally wrong" in the ordinary way, I would disagree with this statement.  For instance, one can imagine moral dilemmas where, where one has no choice but to kill an innocent child, and, since one literally cannot avoid it, there can be no moral blame.  "Ought implies can", as Kant is said to have said.

But, as your later words, indicate, you are not using "morally wrong" in what I would consider the ordinary way.  You have somehow disconnected the idea of "moral wrong" from what a person ought or ought not do in specific cases.  Which is weird to me.  If "moral right" and "moral wrong" are not about what one ought or ought not do, then what can it possibly be about?

Quote

I don't think temptation is the word I would use but ultimately yes I'm saying he was facing a very bad situation & picked the route that the majority of people would pick, making him no more or less evil than every one else (at least where this one instance is concerned).

Well then, you obviously don't think his choice was "morally wrong" as I understand the phrase.  And obviously "temptation" is not the correct word, since for you, there was no sin.

Applying ordinary semantics, I would count you among those who does not think Jaime needs to be "redeemed" (in the ordinary sense), because he did not do anything "morally wrong" (in the ordinary sense) in the first place.

And I disagree.  I think Jaime did indeed make the morally wrong choice, under the precise circumstances in question.  This is not a classic moral dilemma where there are only 2 options, both equally bad.  This particular moral dilemma has a right answer and a wrong answer, in my view.  You have led me in a circle, and we now are right back where we started.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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