Arthur Peres Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said: A legitimate reason for pushing Bran! That one is almost as outrageous as the excuses a few of the people here use to defend Jon Snow and Arya Stark. So why exactly was Bran a threat? Because he accidentally saw Jaime and Cersei doing something they shouldn't be doing. Jaime and Cersei made that happen. I don't like Bran but I have to say he was a victim here. agreed. And to make matters worst, Jaime himself claims time and time again that he never cared about his own children. He cannot even remember Joffrey's face on his way to King's Landing. Joffrey: And now he’s dead. He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose. And then Tommen: “He is my seed. He’s never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them.” Even Cersei went on to berate him for the incident... I really shocked how some people try to justify his crime against a child. “Did I tell you to throw him out the window? If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Even Cersei went on to berate him for the incident... I really shocked how some people try to justify his crime against a child. Well, the author sort of did, so, there you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, 300 H&H Magnum said: A legitimate reason for pushing Bran! That one is almost as outrageous as the excuses a few of the people here use to defend Jon Snow and Arya Stark. So why exactly was Bran a threat? Because he accidentally saw Jaime and Cersei doing something they shouldn't be doing. Jaime and Cersei made that happen. I don't like Bran but I have to say he was a victim here. Well I tend to be .... outrageous lol Now I'd really like to see those excuses for the disgusting Jon Snow and the despicable Ayra Stark as they are clearly indefensible. So if you could save your whole family (including 3 of your own children) by killing a child you don't know, you really are so sure you wouldn't do it, especially if you are already used to killing all the time? I side with GRRM on this one; his quotes about the matter in post #63 And of course Bran is a victim, have never seen anyone argue otherwise. And Bran is among my absolute favorites. I stopped reading for three years after he was pushed, I was so upset about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Well, the author sort of did, so, there you go. GRRM really shooted himself on the foot there... the character himself writed states that he doesn't care about his children time and time again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Well, the author sort of did, so, there you go. The key words here are "sort of". Which is itself a bit of a stretch. Lots of non-comital ambiguity in what GRRM actually said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said: No. I don't like "the Hound". "The Hound" is, or was, a bad person. The difference is, I see clues of a possible redemption arc for Sandor. I see no such clues for Jaime. People talk about Jaime's redemption arc, but I have no idea what they mean. I think what they mean is that, since no man is a villain in his own point of view, therefore no character with a point of view is a villain. Alright. Than my apologies Well, there are clearly a lot of villains with POVs. And a lot get worse with their POV imo. Maybe wouldn't have hated Theon or Victarion that much without theirs. Imo the only bad thing Jaime has ever done is trying to kill Bran and thinking that he might have killed Arya and recognizing that darkness within him. Imo it was sort of an awakening. But that doesn't mean he certainly would have killed her. It just means he recognized and was shocked by the power Cersei has over him. He doesn't seem to have the natural tendency to hurt children though. He is scolded the KG for beating Sansa. I think it is maybe not so easy to stay completely sane, when you are constantly in battle and have to fight and kill anyway. So if you don't seem to be fond of rape or torture, that's a plus for me. But those are low standards- I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 50 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said: A legitimate reason for pushing Bran! That one is almost as outrageous as the excuses a few of the people here use to defend Jon Snow and Arya Stark. So why exactly was Bran a threat? Because he accidentally saw Jaime and Cersei doing something they shouldn't be doing. Jaime and Cersei made that happen. I don't like Bran but I have to say he was a victim here. Of course it's a legitimate reason. It isn't Bran's fault but if he exposed them it could mean death for Jaime, Cersei, & all 3 children. Bran was certainly the victim but to pretend Jaime had nothing to fear from Bran exposing them is very naive. 45 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said: People talk about Jaime's redemption arc, but I have no idea what they mean. I think what they mean is that, since no man is a villain in his own point of view, therefore no character with a point of view is a villain. I don't think that is what they mean at all. Jaime is one of the few people who do own their actions, making him a villain in his own point of view. He went from shoving a child out of a window without a care in the world to succeeding at ending a siege against an enemy without bloodshed BECAUSE he was forced to swear to an enemy, at sword point, not to take up arms against her house. If that's not a redemption arc I don't know what is. I agree, the hound is following a redemption arc as well but he has showed much less redemption thus far than Jaime. We don't know what his activities have been on the QI so that may change things some but the very best we can say for him prior to that is that he didn't kill Arya. He kidnapped her & hit her, but he didn't kill her. Jaime has provided Brienne help to seek out the Stark girls, public enemy #1 according to his own house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 41 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: GRRM really shooted himself on the foot there... the character himself writed states that he doesn't care about his children time and time again. I only remember him stating, that he didn't love Joffrey, not the other two and he clearly loved Cersei at this point more than anyone else. And maybe Jaime is an unreliable narrator lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Of course it's a legitimate reason. It isn't Bran's fault but if he exposed them it could mean death for Jaime, Cersei, & all 3 children. Bran was certainly the victim but to pretend Jaime had nothing to fear from Bran exposing them is very naive. I don't think that is what they mean at all. Jaime is one of the few people who do own their actions, making him a villain in his own point of view. He went from shoving a child out of a window without a care in the world to succeeding at ending a siege against an enemy without bloodshed BECAUSE he was forced to swear to an enemy, at sword point, not to take up arms against her house. If that's not a redemption arc I don't know what is. I agree, the hound is following a redemption arc as well but he has showed much less redemption thus far than Jaime. We don't know what his activities have been on the QI so that may change things some but the very best we can say for him prior to that is that he didn't kill Arya. He kidnapped her & hit her, but he didn't kill her. Jaime has provided Brienne help to seek out the Stark girls, public enemy #1 according to his own house. The part where he threatned to catapult a baby on the wall kind of ruins this "heroic act". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, Nagini's Neville said: I only remember him stating, that he didn't love Joffrey, not the other two and he clearly loved Cersei at this point more than anyone else. And maybe Jaime is an unreliable narrator lol Absolutely & not loving Joffrey or the other two is a far cry from not caring if they get killed. Besides that he isn't allowed to take much part in the kids lives - I'm not saying he would have been a shining example of a father, he probably would not have but I do understand, to a degree, why he doesn't feel about the children the way most people feel about theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said: I only remember him stating, that he didn't love Joffrey, not the other two and he clearly loved Cersei at this point more than anyone else. And maybe Jaime is an unreliable narrator lol He is more blunt with Joffrey, be we have not mention of him even thinking about Myrcella, and with Tommen, we have this weird conversation with Cersei: “He is your son . . . ” “He is my seed. He’s never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said: The part where he threatned to catapult a baby on the wall kind of ruins this "heroic act". I didn't say it was a heroic act. The fact that he cared enough to even try to end it without taking up arms against them is proof he is someone different than the man who pushed Bran out the window. He was under no obligation to do that. The vow was taken from him at sword point & sworn to an enemy. The old Jaime would have rallied the troops, stormed the castle, & catapulted the baby, not just threatened to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I didn't say it was a heroic act. The fact that he cared enough to even try to end it without taking up arms against them is proof he is someone different than the man who pushed Bran out the window. He was under no obligation to do that. The vow was taken from him at sword point & sworn to an enemy. The old Jaime would have rallied the troops, stormed the castle, & catapulted the baby, not just threatened to. I fail to see the point of saying he is not taking arms when he is using a baby as hostage... I mean If I have let's say, Luca Brasi to take your mother/father, to a ride, and then "ask" you to give all of your belongs or something might happen to them... is this really not using force? Am I being noble for not pointing a gun and taking it? Jaime ended the siege the way it was easier to him. Using a hostage was taking arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 19 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I don't think that is what they mean at all. Jaime is one of the few people who do own their actions, making him a villain in his own point of view. He went from shoving a child out of a window without a care in the world to succeeding at ending a siege against an enemy without bloodshed BECAUSE he was forced to swear to an enemy, at sword point, not to take up arms against her house. If that's not a redemption arc I don't know what is. Did he?? He was ready to take on every Tully if needed be and he would've killed every Tully, in fact he sent men against Brynden, change?? For sure, redemption arc?? Well, we'll see whem Jaime settles and decides who he wants to be... 13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I didn't say it was a heroic act. The fact that he cared enough to even try to end it without taking up arms against them is proof he is someone different than the man who pushed Bran out the window. He was under no obligation to do that. The vow was taken from him at sword point & sworn to an enemy. The old Jaime would have rallied the troops, stormed the castle, & catapulted the baby, not just threatened to. The old Jaime wouldn't have realized or cared that's a very good waste of troops, since the storming wouldn't have been bloodless, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: I fail to see the point of saying he is not taking arms when he is using a baby as hostage... I mean If I have let's say, Luca Brasi to take your mother/father, to a ride, and then "ask" you to give all of your belongs or something might happen to them... is this really not using force? Am I being noble for not pointing a gun and taking it? Jaime ended the siege the way it was easier to him. Using a hostage was taking arms. He used coercion & threats but that isn't what he swore not to do. Either way it doesn't matter because my point is the Jaime Lannister that pushed Bran out of a window wouldn't have given a second thought to a vow sworn to Catelyn even if she wasn't holding him prisoner, let alone attempt to uphold the damn thing. Who said anything of being noble? I certainly didn't. We know the reason Jaime ended things the way he did because he told us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, frenin said: Did he?? He was ready to take on every Tully if needed be and he would've killed every Tully, in fact he sent men against Brynden, change?? For sure, redemption arc?? Well, we'll see whem Jaime settles and decides who he wants to be We can't say what he would've done, only what he did & while he may not succeed in his redemption arc he is certainly on the path of one. 10 minutes ago, frenin said: The old Jaime wouldn't have realized or cared that's a very good waste of troops, since the storming wouldn't have been bloodless That's another point towards Jaime getting better then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 The first thing Jaime does when he comes to Riverrun is to challenge Blackfish to a duel... later on after taking the castle he still send his men after the elder Tully. He did take upon arms against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: That's another point towards Jaime getting better then. I would argue that getting smater is not the same as redeeming himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: He is more blunt with Joffrey, be we have not mention of him even thinking about Myrcella, and with Tommen, we have this weird conversation with Cersei: “He is your son . . . ” “He is my seed. He’s never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them.” Yeah, but he is saying that to Cersei, right? They aren't really that truthful in their weird, toxic relationship with one another. Imo George's statements about the matter clearly show, that he meant for Jaime to care about his weird family, even if it's not clearly obvious from his thoughts. A lot of things are subconscious after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: We can't say what he would've done, only what he did & while he may not succeed in his redemption arc he is certainly on the path of one. Jaime can and he did clarify Edmure's options, or are you suggesting that he would've just turned around and leave RR be because he couldn't take it without bloodshed?? Don't know wh he later sent people after Brynden. Don't buy the redemption arc, because i don't know for what he's redeeming, nor do i really know what he really wants because he changes his mind quite often. I don't really consider Jaime a bad guy who needs a redemption arc, just changed, he's still an overall selfish and very self centered dude but not a crime 15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: That's another point towards Jaime getting better then. Or more dangerous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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