Bob0 Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 The ‘three treasons’ prophecy given to Daenerys in the House of the Undying comes up repeatedly in ASOS and ADOD. Daenerys interprets this prophecy as the actions of Mirri Maz Duur, Ser Jorah Mormont and Brown Ben Plumm. However, they don’t fit the prophecy and she doubts this interpretation herself. The ‘three treasons’ prophecy fits far better as a prediction of the battles at Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen, all involving treason as a significant part of the battle, but treason that is for Daenerys’ advantage. The prophecy only states that she will 'know' three treasons. Each battle has many links to one of the themes in the prophecy, Astapor – blood, Yunkai – gold and Meereen – love. For each battle, there are links between the theme and: The city involved in the battle The group that commits treason The decisions that Daenerys makes I have written an article describing this interpretation, including many quotes. This is a short summary of the main points. Go and read the full article with all the book references here: breaktheice308168428.wordpress.com The Battle at Astapor The Unsullied commit treason by turning on their former masters after being freed by Daenerys. Astapor and Blood Astapor is linked to blood through references to ‘blood’, the colour ‘red’ and violence: The saying "Bricks and blood built Astapor, and bricks and blood her people." Astapor is called The Red City, it is made of red bricks Numerous references to blood when talking about the city before and after the battle (see full article). The joint highest number of mentions of the word ‘blood’ in ASOS are found in Daenerys II, in Astapor. The Unsullied and Blood The Unsullied are linked to ‘blood’ when they are described and through their treatment by the Good Masters: They are often linked to blood when they are talked about e.g. ‘fine well-blooded troops’ They are compared to the red (blood soaked) bricks of Astapor They drink bloodfly larva in the ‘Wine of Courage’ When they are first seen, one of them is whipped and another cut, both resulting in bleeding. They appear to side with Daenerys because of a desire for violent revenge for their treatment by the Good Masters, i.e. ‘blood must pay for blood’. The Decision and Blood Daenerys’ decision is linked to blood by the proposed trade and the battle itself: The Good Masters want Drogon (Daenerys is the blood of the dragon, so it’s her blood). Daenerys is not sure that she wants the Unsullied because of the ‘innocent blood’ spilled in their training. Daenerys decides she wants both her dragons and the Unsullied, so she attacks and defeats the Good Masters. There are several references to ‘blood’ in the description of the battle, which is a first-hand account, unlike the later ones. The Battle near Yunkai At Yunkai, the Stormcrows, led by Daario Naharis, commit treason by changing sides just before the battle. The Second Sons join Daenerys after the battle. Yunkai and Gold Yunkai is linked to gold through ‘gold’ itself as well as the colour ‘yellow’ and wealth: Yunkai is called The Yellow City, it is made of yellow bricks. Yunkai has a golden pyramid. Yunkai is a very rich city, with plenty of gold. The Wise Masters of Yunkai generally dress in yellow and are wealthy. Sellswords and Gold Sellswords are linked to gold by their desire for it and by Daario himself: There are many references to sellswords being motivated by gold, or loving gold throughout ASOIAF. Daenerys offers gold for them to change sides, which they refuse. Daario is almost entirely dressed in gold and yellow. It is the actions of Daario that cause the Second Sons to change sides, by killing the other captains and taking command of the company. He represents 'gold' by his appearance, but there are some references to the sellswords changing sides because of gold too. The Decision and Gold Daenerys’ decision is linked to gold through the Wise Master’ offer to Daenerys and as a form of payment. The Wise Masters offer gold to Daenerys to leave them alone. Daenerys wants to free all the slaves of Yunkai with payment for their labour. Daenerys rejects the gold, and wins a victory on the battlefield, which convinces the Wise Masters to release the slaves. The Battle at Meereen The capture of Meereen is aided by a slave revolt led by a group entering the city through the sewers. The revolt starts in the fighting pits. Meereen and Love Meereen is linked to love as this is where Daenerys decides who she should marry, from many suitors, and her trying to win the love of the city to rule it: Many suitors want to marry Daenerys and speak about this in terms of love even if they don't actually love her. Daenerys tries to win the love of the city by marrying Hizdahr and reopening the fighting pits. Meereen has multicoloured bricks and seating indicated by colour and arranged by status in the fighting pits. This represents the diversity of the city that Daenerys wants to rule and to do so she must show them 'her love'. The Slaves and Love The slaves are linked to love through their Mother-Children relationship with Daenerys The slaves call Daenerys ‘mother’ before and after the battle. Daenerys loves the ex-slaves and they love her. The Decision and Love Daenerys’ decision to take the city and then how to rule it are linked to her love for her followers and for the city: Daenerys want to take Meereen because of her love for her ex-slaves and the current slaves of the city. She is angry after seeing the slave children on the road to Meereen. If she does not take Meereen, her followers will starve. Daenerys wants to rule Meereen personally to protect her followers, after receiving bad news about Astapor. Daenerys wants to marry someone who will help her to rule in peace and win ‘the love of the city’. References to the Prophecy The 'three treasons' prophecy is brought up at key points for the battles in a Storm of Swords When the decision is made to go to Astapor and the Unsullied are introduced. Just after Daario has been sent back to the Stormcrows to start the battle with the Yunkish forces. Just before Daenerys sends a group into the sewers to start a slave riot at Meereen. In the final Daenerys chapter, just after the capture of Meereen and the final treason has been carried out, the prophecy is given in full, for the only time in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anck Su Namun Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 4 hours ago, Bob0 said: The ‘three treasons’ prophecy given to Daenerys in the House of the Undying comes up repeatedly in ASOS and ADOD. Daenerys interprets this prophecy as the actions of Mirri Maz Duur, Ser Jorah Mormont and Brown Ben Plumm. However, they don’t fit the prophecy and she doubts this interpretation herself. The ‘three treasons’ prophecy fits far better as a prediction of the battles at Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen, all involving treason as a significant part of the battle, but treason that is for Daenerys’ advantage. The prophecy only states that she will 'know' three treasons. Each battle has many links to one of the themes in the prophecy, Astapor – blood, Yunkai – gold and Meereen – love. For each battle, there are links between the theme and: The city involved in the battle The group that commits treason The decisions that Daenerys makes I have written an article describing this interpretation, including many quotes. This is a short summary of the main points. Go and read the full article with all the book references here: breaktheice308168428.wordpress.com The Battle at Astapor The Unsullied commit treason by turning on their former masters after being freed by Daenerys. Astapor and Blood Astapor is linked to blood through references to ‘blood’, the colour ‘red’ and violence: The saying "Bricks and blood built Astapor, and bricks and blood her people." Astapor is called The Red City, it is made of red bricks Numerous references to blood when talking about the city before and after the battle (see full article). The joint highest number of mentions of the word ‘blood’ in ASOS are found in Daenerys II, in Astapor. The Unsullied and Blood The Unsullied are linked to ‘blood’ when they are described and through their treatment by the Good Masters: They are often linked to blood when they are talked about e.g. ‘fine well-blooded troops’ They are compared to the red (blood soaked) bricks of Astapor They drink bloodfly larva in the ‘Wine of Courage’ When they are first seen, one of them is whipped and another cut, both resulting in bleeding. They appear to side with Daenerys because of a desire for violent revenge for their treatment by the Good Masters, i.e. ‘blood must pay for blood’. The Decision and Blood Daenerys’ decision is linked to blood by the proposed trade and the battle itself: The Good Masters want Drogon (Daenerys is the blood of the dragon, so it’s her blood). Daenerys is not sure that she wants the Unsullied because of the ‘innocent blood’ spilled in their training. Daenerys decides she wants both her dragons and the Unsullied, so she attacks and defeats the Good Masters. There are several references to ‘blood’ in the description of the battle, which is a first-hand account, unlike the later ones. The Battle near Yunkai At Yunkai, the Stormcrows, led by Daario Naharis, commit treason by changing sides just before the battle. The Second Sons join Daenerys after the battle. Yunkai and Gold Yunkai is linked to gold through ‘gold’ itself as well as the colour ‘yellow’ and wealth: Yunkai is called The Yellow City, it is made of yellow bricks. Yunkai has a golden pyramid. Yunkai is a very rich city, with plenty of gold. The Wise Masters of Yunkai generally dress in yellow and are wealthy. Sellswords and Gold Sellswords are linked to gold by their desire for it and by Daario himself: There are many references to sellswords being motivated by gold, or loving gold throughout ASOIAF. Daenerys offers gold for them to change sides, which they refuse. Daario is almost entirely dressed in gold and yellow. It is the actions of Daario that cause the Second Sons to change sides, by killing the other captains and taking command of the company. He represents 'gold' by his appearance, but there are some references to the sellswords changing sides because of gold too. The Decision and Gold Daenerys’ decision is linked to gold through the Wise Master’ offer to Daenerys and as a form of payment. The Wise Masters offer gold to Daenerys to leave them alone. Daenerys wants to free all the slaves of Yunkai with payment for their labour. Daenerys rejects the gold, and wins a victory on the battlefield, which convinces the Wise Masters to release the slaves. The Battle at Meereen The capture of Meereen is aided by a slave revolt led by a group entering the city through the sewers. The revolt starts in the fighting pits. Meereen and Love Meereen is linked to love as this is where Daenerys decides who she should marry, from many suitors, and her trying to win the love of the city to rule it: Many suitors want to marry Daenerys and speak about this in terms of love even if they don't actually love her. Daenerys tries to win the love of the city by marrying Hizdahr and reopening the fighting pits. Meereen has multicoloured bricks and seating indicated by colour and arranged by status in the fighting pits. This represents the diversity of the city that Daenerys wants to rule and to do so she must show them 'her love'. The Slaves and Love The slaves are linked to love through their Mother-Children relationship with Daenerys The slaves call Daenerys ‘mother’ before and after the battle. Daenerys loves the ex-slaves and they love her. The Decision and Love Daenerys’ decision to take the city and then how to rule it are linked to her love for her followers and for the city: Daenerys want to take Meereen because of her love for her ex-slaves and the current slaves of the city. She is angry after seeing the slave children on the road to Meereen. If she does not take Meereen, her followers will starve. Daenerys wants to rule Meereen personally to protect her followers, after receiving bad news about Astapor. Daenerys wants to marry someone who will help her to rule in peace and win ‘the love of the city’. References to the Prophecy The 'three treasons' prophecy is brought up at key points for the battles in a Storm of Swords When the decision is made to go to Astapor and the Unsullied are introduced. Just after Daario has been sent back to the Stormcrows to start the battle with the Yunkish forces. Just before Daenerys sends a group into the sewers to start a slave riot at Meereen. In the final Daenerys chapter, just after the capture of Meereen and the final treason has been carried out, the prophecy is given in full, for the only time in the book. Perhaps the whole cycle takes place in Slaver's Bay. Although it is hard to rule out MMD's treason, funeral fire, and execution. The treasons result in the deaths of husband or lover, the husband is cremated, the guilty dies by fire as the punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob0 Posted December 30, 2019 Author Share Posted December 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said: Perhaps the whole cycle takes place in Slaver's Bay. Although it is hard to rule out MMD's treason, funeral fire, and execution. The treasons result in the deaths of husband or lover, the husband is cremated, the guilty dies by fire as the punishment. It's not treason though. There is nothing to indicate that MMD intended to harm Khal Drogo. Daenerys asked her to do the bloodmagic ritual, was warned about it and knew there would be a death, but wanted to do it anyway. Daenerys feels bad about it afterwards, but it's not as if MMD did anything that wasn't asked of her, so how is that treason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsil4 Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 8 hours ago, Bob0 said: There is nothing to indicate that MMD intended to harm Khal Drogo. In my opinion MMD was under no obligation to be loyal to those enslaving her and murdering her people. So even if she did do something to hurt Drogo or Dany, which I don't think she did, it wouldn't be treason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 On 12/29/2019 at 6:19 PM, Bob0 said: The Battle at Astapor The Unsullied commit treason by turning on their former masters after being freed by Daenerys. The Unsullied didn't commit treason. They were lawfully sold by the Masters who confirmed to Dany (and them) that they were under no obligation to obey anyone but her. “Dany turned the whip in her hand. Such a light thing, to bear such weight. “Is it done, then? Do they belong to me?” “It is done,” he agreed, giving the chain a sharp pull to bring Drogon down from the litter.” [...] “She stood in her stirrups and raised the harpy’s fingers above her head for all the Unsullied to see. “IT IS DONE!” she cried at the top of her lungs. “YOU ARE MINE!” She gave the mare her heels and galloped along the first rank, holding the fingers high. “YOU ARE THE DRAGON’S NOW! YOU’RE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR! IT IS DONE! IT IS DONE!” They didn't even attack Grazdan who ordered them to help after Rakharo shot him. “When Rakharo put an arrow through his mouth, the slaves holding his sedan chair broke and ran, dumping him unceremoniously on the ground. The old man crawled to the first rank of eunuchs, his blood pooling on the bricks. The Unsullied did not so much as look down to watch him die. ” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob0 Posted December 31, 2019 Author Share Posted December 31, 2019 3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: The Unsullied didn't commit treason. They were lawfully sold by the Masters who confirmed to Dany (and them) that they were under no obligation to obey anyone but her. “Dany turned the whip in her hand. Such a light thing, to bear such weight. “Is it done, then? Do they belong to me?” “It is done,” he agreed, giving the chain a sharp pull to bring Drogon down from the litter.” [...] “She stood in her stirrups and raised the harpy’s fingers above her head for all the Unsullied to see. “IT IS DONE!” she cried at the top of her lungs. “YOU ARE MINE!” She gave the mare her heels and galloped along the first rank, holding the fingers high. “YOU ARE THE DRAGON’S NOW! YOU’RE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR! IT IS DONE! IT IS DONE!” They didn't even attack Grazdan who ordered them to help after Rakharo shot him. “When Rakharo put an arrow through his mouth, the slaves holding his sedan chair broke and ran, dumping him unceremoniously on the ground. The old man crawled to the first rank of eunuchs, his blood pooling on the bricks. The Unsullied did not so much as look down to watch him die. ” Keep reading. She raised the harpy’s fingers in the air … and then she flung the scourge aside. “Freedom!” she sang out. “Dracarys! Dracarys!” The scourge is the symbol of ownership, Daenerys throws it away and shouts "Freedom", so it's up to the Unsullied to make a decision. Grey Worm later confirms that they have been freed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 51 minutes ago, Bob0 said: Keep reading. She raised the harpy’s fingers in the air … and then she flung the scourge aside. “Freedom!” she sang out. “Dracarys! Dracarys!” The scourge is the symbol of ownership, Daenerys throws it away and shouts "Freedom", so it's up to the Unsullied to make a decision. Grey Worm later confirms that they have been freed. Right. I'm familiar with the passage. It doesn't make it treason. Master's chattel -> Dany's Chattel (to do with as she wants per Grazdan) -> Freemen They're at least two steps away from it being treason. It's just open war at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob0 Posted December 31, 2019 Author Share Posted December 31, 2019 31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Right. I'm familiar with the passage. It doesn't make it treason. Master's chattel -> Dany's Chattel (to do with as she wants per Grazdan) -> Freemen They're at least two steps away from it being treason. It's just open war at this point Not sure if you mean Kraznys not Grazdan. The Unsullied are still people, they have been obeying the Masters since they were enslaved and now they are given a choice about who to follow. What is Daenerys' claim to ownership of them? The scourge - she just threw that away. She 'paid' for them - she just said that 'a dragon is no slave', so she didn't really pay anything. The transfer of ownership is symbolic, it only works because the Unsullied have been conditioned to obey. Drogon doesn't want to be given away so he/she doesn't let it happen. The Unsullied being 'freed' gets them to start thinking for themselves. Kraznys is wrong about the Unsullied, he says that they don't want freedom, when they are clearly happy to be freed. I agree with you that it is open war at that point. When you attack someone that was your master, that is treason. Just because of the Unsullied have been through their conditioning doesn't make them non-people, unable to make decisions. One point of this passage is that the Unsullied do have some free will left. When the Stormcrows attack the Yunkai, that's definitely treason because they changed sides and attacked their previous allies. This is no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 49 minutes ago, Bob0 said: Not sure if you mean Kraznys not Grazdan. The Unsullied are still people, they have been obeying the Masters since they were enslaved and now they are given a choice about who to follow. What is Daenerys' claim to ownership of them? Kraznys saying she owns them (like I showed in the first post): “Dany turned the whip in her hand. Such a light thing, to bear such weight. “Is it done, then? Do they belong to me?”“It is done,” he agreed, giving the chain a sharp pull to bring Drogon down from the litter.” They are chattel at this point. They belong to Dany in totality. “IT IS DONE!” she cried at the top of her lungs. “YOU ARE MINE!” She gave the mare her heels and galloped along the first rank, holding the fingers high. “YOU ARE THE DRAGON’S NOW! YOU’RE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR! IT IS DONE! IT IS DONE!” edit: def forgot that gem Quote The scourge - she just threw that away. Right but that's irrelevant Quote She 'paid' for them - she just said that 'a dragon is no slave', so she didn't really pay anything. Not according to Kraznys, who accepted her payment. Quote The transfer of ownership is symbolic, it only works because the Unsullied have been conditioned to obey. Drogon doesn't want to be given away so he/she doesn't let it happen. The Unsullied being 'freed' gets them to start thinking for themselves. The transfer of ownership is literal and symbolic. Kraznys says it, Dany confirms it, and then gives order for her slaves to kill. Dany doesn't free the Unsullied until after the Sack of Astapor, and then she lets them pick their officers and bans the practice of new names (tho that might be before). Quote Kraznys is wrong about the Unsullied, he says that they don't want freedom, when they are clearly happy to be freed. That's irrelevant to it being treason. Quote I agree with you that it is open war at that point. When you attack someone that was your master, that is treason. Just because of the Unsullied have been through their conditioning doesn't make them non-people, unable to make decisions. One point of this passage is that the Unsullied do have some free will left. There's a few different definitions we can apply to treason here: the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government. the crime of murdering someone to whom the murderer owed allegiance, such as a master or husband. No allegiance was owed to Astapor, only to their current owner. Their current master is Dany. You can read it that way, but that doesn't make it true. We are told time and time again that the Unsullied are 100% obedient to their master and the only illustration we have of their combat is them ignoring a dying Grazdan after Rakharo shoots him with an arrow and then them being commanded to slay the Masters and strike chains off of other slaves, while they are still her slaves. She doesn't even bother with the "freedom" declaration until after those orders and making Drogon breathe fire multiple times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob0 Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 The scourge is the symbol of ownership. That's why Daenerys confirms that she is the owner with Kraznys and shows it off to the Unsullied. What she says at that point is not important. The Unsullied are not listening to her explanation, they see who holds the scourge and that's it. She tells them what she wants and frees them before they have time to respond. Throwing it away shows them that she has freed them. It's up to them what they do now. Quote Dany doesn't free the Unsullied until after the Sack of Astapor, and then she lets them pick their officers and bans the practice of new names (tho that might be before). I don't agree with this. Her throwing the scourge away and shouting 'Freedom' is when she frees them. If the Unsullied are 100% obedient to their new owner, why do the Masters ask them for help? Surely that's pointless, they are desperate for help at that point though, so perhaps that's all they can think of. If Daenerys was so sure that the Unsullied would side with her, why was she relieved when they did so? You can't make an exception for the Unsullied just because of their conditioning. If other soldiers were put in the command of someone who used them to commit treason, that would still be treason. It doesn't matter if you have a good reason. Quote There's a few different definitions we can apply to treason here: the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government. This is exactly what the Unsullied are doing here. They have spent at least 10 years in Astapor in their training. Astapor is their city. A minute or so of being given to Daenerys doesn't change that. They are overthrowing the government, so it's treason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 I don't think I'd call the actions of the Unsullied "treason" at any stage. They had no duty of allegiance to the Good Masters. Even if Daenerys had never turned up, they would have been entitled to string them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob0 Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 6 hours ago, SeanF said: I don't think I'd call the actions of the Unsullied "treason" at any stage. They had no duty of allegiance to the Good Masters. Even if Daenerys had never turned up, they would have been entitled to string them up. I agree completely that the Unsullied were totally justified and had no duty of allegiance to the Good Masters. However, 'treason' does not work like that. You are supposed to be loyal to the king/ruler/country that you are part of and if you help an enemy it gets called treason, even if you have a good reason. 'Treason' is a loaded word that only gets used disapprovingly about people on your side, never in a positive way. So really you want to ask whether the Astapori would describe the events as treason, which it seems likely that some of them would. We never get their opinion as they all get killed. However, we do get this from Prendahl na Ghezn, who is possibly related to those in Astapor. Quote “You took Astapor by treachery, but Yunkai shall not fall so easily.” The Merriam-Webster definition of treachery is: 1 : violation of allegiance or of faith and confidence : treason 2 : an act of perfidy or treason The other dictionaries that I looked at have treachery and treason as synonyms, so from at least some people's point of view it was treason. Perhaps they are thinking about the actions of Daenerys and not the Unsullied, but there was definitely some treason going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 On 12/30/2019 at 12:19 AM, Bob0 said: The ‘three treasons’ prophecy fits far better as a prediction of the battles at Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen, all involving treason as a significant part of the battle, but treason that is for Daenerys’ advantage. The prophecy only states that she will 'know' three treasons. Each battle has many links to one of the themes in the prophecy, Astapor – blood, Yunkai – gold and Meereen – love. For each battle, there are links between the theme and: The city involved in the battle The group that commits treason The decisions that Daenerys makes I have written an article describing this interpretation, including many quotes. This is a short summary of the main points. Go and read the full article with all the book references here: breaktheice308168428.wordpress.com I really enjoyed the article, thanks. Astapor as city of blood is rock solid. You make a good case for gold and love for the other two also, but there a few really striking details that remain outside the puzzle. Yunkai is famous for training pleasure slaves. Astapor is equally famous for producing (very non-sexual) Unsullied. Admittedly sex is not the same thing as love, but I feel a sort of Mars and Venus vibe here. (Meereen seems to produce artisans of many kinds - the idea people=bricks works incredibly well.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 5:15 AM, Bob0 said: The scourge is the symbol of ownership. That's why Daenerys confirms that she is the owner with Kraznys and shows it off to the Unsullied. What she says at that point is not important. The Unsullied are not listening to her explanation, they see who holds the scourge and that's it. She tells them what she wants and frees them before they have time to respond. Throwing it away shows them that she has freed them. It's up to them what they do now. I don't agree with this. Her throwing the scourge away and shouting 'Freedom' is when she frees them. That can be inferred but it's not real concrete. More importantly she was still giving orders to them as slaves. We don't know exactly what happened directly after the fighting started and she yells Freedom. For a flawed* but comparable scene, when Mel Gibson gives the speech about freedom to the Scotsmen in Braveheart, it did not make them free men. William Wallace actually narrates that their freedom didn't come until years later after Robert the Bruce's victory at the Battle of Bannockburn * Obviously English - Scottish relations is a bit more complicated than a movie based on a fictional poem On 1/1/2020 at 5:15 AM, Bob0 said: If the Unsullied are 100% obedient to their new owner, why do the Masters ask them for help? Surely that's pointless, they are desperate for help at that point though, so perhaps that's all they can think of. If Daenerys was so sure that the Unsullied would side with her, why was she relieved when they did so? Well there's not exactly much else for them to do except die. And she wasn't sure, she just bet her life and freedom on it. On 1/1/2020 at 5:15 AM, Bob0 said: You can't make an exception for the Unsullied just because of their conditioning. If other soldiers were put in the command of someone who used them to commit treason, that would still be treason. It doesn't matter if you have a good reason. I don't need to make an exception. Normal soldiers are not recruited in the same as Unsullied. On 1/1/2020 at 5:15 AM, Bob0 said: This is exactly what the Unsullied are doing here. They have spent at least 10 years in Astapor in their training. Astapor is their city. A minute or so of being given to Daenerys doesn't change that. They are overthrowing the government, so it's treason. The unsullied were slaves either bought from their parents or purchased from their owners. They are forcibly castrated and indoctrinated by masters with no choice in their future. Once again slaves have no agency and no loyalty to a nation but rather their master. After their ownership is transferred to Dany, their loyalty to Astapor, which exists only as far as their loyalty to their slave masters, is formally severed and either never existed personally or was also severed by the same action. Dany's actions were indeed perfidy but that doesn't mean that what the Unsullied did was treason. They were perfidious because she was there essentially under safe conduct tl;dr - slaves have no loyalty to a nation state and they were not bound to any loyalty oaths to Astapor or its inhabitants after Dany bought them and freed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob0 Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 7:28 PM, Springwatch said: I really enjoyed the article, thanks. Astapor as city of blood is rock solid. You make a good case for gold and love for the other two also, but there a few really striking details that remain outside the puzzle. Yunkai is famous for training pleasure slaves. Astapor is equally famous for producing (very non-sexual) Unsullied. Admittedly sex is not the same thing as love, but I feel a sort of Mars and Venus vibe here. (Meereen seems to produce artisans of many kinds - the idea people=bricks works incredibly well.) Thanks. I see Astapor as a city of violence which goes well with blood, Yunkai is a city of extravagance and pleasure-seeking which goes well with gold and pleasure slaves. Meereen is a bit more complicated, the main feature seems to be the fighting pits, which are hard to relate to love, although there are some interesting references in the Daenerys chapter in the fighting pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Bob0 said: Meereen is a bit more complicated, the main feature seems to be the fighting pits, which are hard to relate to love, although there are some interesting references in the Daenerys chapter in the fighting pit. I tend to agree that the three treasons do not fit at all. I don't think MMD is a treason and Jorah and Brown Ben Plumm don't fit. But things do become more interesting if we stop looking at Dany as being the victim of treason. I always thought he'd be the treason for blood because there seems to be a lot around him with regard to his blood, how he's not fit to be a consort, said more than once, how Dany considers him as one person who could ride her dragons and so on. Her thoughts about him go on like that. So about Meereen and love. It could be something that's still coming. Daario is in Meereen. And Dany loves him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Interesting ideas but I don't think the cities fit very well, with the exception of Astapor as a treason for blood, but even so - is the destruction of Astapor truly significant for Dany? Comparable to the dragon pyre or her marriage to Drogo (which are most likely her first fire and her first mount)? I tend to think that all the prophesized events should be of grave importance to Dany, and the cities just don't qualify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob0 Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 13 hours ago, Ygrain said: Interesting ideas but I don't think the cities fit very well, with the exception of Astapor as a treason for blood, but even so - is the destruction of Astapor truly significant for Dany? Comparable to the dragon pyre or her marriage to Drogo (which are most likely her first fire and her first mount)? I tend to think that all the prophesized events should be of grave importance to Dany, and the cities just don't qualify. I think the most dramatic rise to power for a character in the series should count as significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 22 minutes ago, Bob0 said: I think the most dramatic rise to power for a character in the series should count as significant. Except, the story was not even half-way through at that point. It was simply too soon to have that part of the prophecy fulfilled, given that the other parts have but started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 On 1/3/2020 at 12:40 AM, Universal Sword Donor said: That can be inferred but it's not real concrete. More importantly she was still giving orders to them as slaves. We don't know exactly what happened directly after the fighting started and she yells Freedom. For a flawed* but comparable scene, when Mel Gibson gives the speech about freedom to the Scotsmen in Braveheart, it did not make them free men. William Wallace actually narrates that their freedom didn't come until years later after Robert the Bruce's victory at the Battle of Bannockburn * Obviously English - Scottish relations is a bit more complicated than a movie based on a fictional poem Well there's not exactly much else for them to do except die. And she wasn't sure, she just bet her life and freedom on it. I don't need to make an exception. Normal soldiers are not recruited in the same as Unsullied. The unsullied were slaves either bought from their parents or purchased from their owners. They are forcibly castrated and indoctrinated by masters with no choice in their future. Once again slaves have no agency and no loyalty to a nation but rather their master. After their ownership is transferred to Dany, their loyalty to Astapor, which exists only as far as their loyalty to their slave masters, is formally severed and either never existed personally or was also severed by the same action. Dany's actions were indeed perfidy but that doesn't mean that what the Unsullied did was treason. They were perfidious because she was there essentially under safe conduct tl;dr - slaves have no loyalty to a nation state and they were not bound to any loyalty oaths to Astapor or its inhabitants after Dany bought them and freed them. IMHO, the Unsullied were never as indoctrinated as the Good Masters thought they were. Arming your own slaves is about as stupid an idea as one can think of, but it is a real thing in history, eg Mamelukes and Janissaries. But, slave soldiers, like all soldiers, develop bonds of loyalty to their comrades, and eventually conclude, they should be the ones in charge. With or without Dany, I think the Unsullied would have turned, just as the Mamelukes and Janissaries did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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