Skinchanging bonds

[Lady Anna]

Wasn't sure where to post this, but I think this could benefit from its own thread.

I was wondering that, since Jon Snow has at times a stronger sense of smell, like a wolf's, even when not actively warging into Ghost, could Ghost's other enhanced senses and traits be also passed to Jon? I saw someone mentioning the following tidbit:

In Melisandre's chapter Jon finds the 3 heads of the rangers killed by the Weeper:

''A ragged blanket of white covered the torn and tortured earth that stretched from the Wall to the edge of the haunted forest. Jon Snow and his black brothers were gathered around three spears, some twenty yards away.

The spears were eight feet long and made of ash (...)''.

"Black Jack Bulwer, Hairy Hal, and Garth Greyfeather," Bowen Marsh said solemnly. "The ground is half-frozen. It must have taken the wildlings half the night to drive the spears so deep. They could still be close. Watching us." The Lord Steward squinted at the line of trees (...).

Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeather's head and wrenched it violently from the ground. "Pull down the other two," he commanded, and four of the crows hurried to obey (...).

To the men struggling with the spears Snow said, "Take the heads and burn them. Leave nothing but bare bone."

So Jon can pull the spear from the snow by himself, but 4 men struggle to pull out the other two. This could be nothing, but since this discrepancy was noted, i'm wondering if it could be from Ghost's physical strengh transferring to Jon for a moment, like his sense of smell at other times. Although here Jon wasn't even touching Ghost (although he was present), but I'm not sure if that is necessary. But could Jon just be stronger due to other reasons?

Thanks

[Yaya]

hmmm interesting.   it could be that the other men were less strong than Jon or that Jon was lucky to pick the spear that was easier to pull out or even that he had a big adrenalin boost.

i'm trying to think of other situations where any of the wargs/skinchanger types exhibited "feats of strength" but i can not.  doesn't mean it didn't, doesn't or can't happen.
(right now i'm thinking specifically of Varamyr - when he was injured & really couldn't do anything)

in my opinion all the warging/skin changing resultant abilities/information is mental - through the senses or dreams. 

i'll be looking for anything similar as i go through my re-readings.  thanks Lady Anna!

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Lady Anna said:

So Jon can pull the spear from the snow by himself, but 4 men struggle to pull out the other two. This could be nothing, but since this discrepancy was noted, i'm wondering if it could be from Ghost's physical strengh transferring to Jon for a moment, like his sense of smell at other times. Although here Jon wasn't even touching Ghost (although he was present), but I'm not sure if that is necessary. But could Jon just be stronger due to other reasons?

It’s not. Remember when Jon is pondering Stannis’s offer to become Lord of Winterfell at the end of ASoS? 

“He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.
It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. “Ghost?” He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. “Ghost!” he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run.”

 

[kissdbyfire]

Also, you might find this thread by @bemused interesting. 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

So Jon can pull the spear from the snow by himself, but 4 men struggle to pull out the other two. This could be nothing, but since this discrepancy was noted, i'm wondering if it could be from Ghost's physical strengh transferring to Jon for a moment, like his sense of smell at other times. Although here Jon wasn't even touching Ghost (although he was present), but I'm not sure if that is necessary. But could Jon just be stronger due to other reasons?

I don't know that it has anything to do with the skinchanging abilities. Jon has two altercations with Alliser Throne. The first time, AGoT, it takes Grenn and Pyp to stop him and Grenn is described as a pretty strong kid. The second time, Jon manages to lift Alliser Thorne by the neck and off his feet and it takes a few men from Eastwatch to get him to let go. And there's the beat down he lays on Iron Emmett, where he just seems to blank out for a few minutes. 

To me it seems like it's something that happens whenever his anger gets the best of him (or as I like to call it waking the dragon). 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

To me it seems like it's something that happens whenever his anger gets the best of him (or as I like to call it waking the dragon). 

Or an excess of wolf's blood which in effect, looks exactly like waking the dragon.

To the OP, Bran wakes spontaneously at the same point when Lady dies which tells me that the warg bond between the Stark kids and their respective wolves is a lot more fluid than it first appears extending between the wolves themselves, and possibly between the Stark kids directly. Jojen says that he can't be hooked up to the weirnet because he's not a warg, so it looks like being a warg is just a small part of something larger.

 

Adding****

AGOT Tyrion I

"If he wakes," Cersei repeated. "Is that likely?"

"The gods alone know," Tyrion told her. "The maester only hopes." He chewed some more bread. "I would swear that wolf of his is keeping the boy alive. The creature is outside his window day and night, howling. Every time they chase it away, it returns. The maester said they closed the window once, to shut out the noise, and Bran seemed to weaken. When they opened it again, his heart beat stronger."

 

[Lady Anna]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, you might find this thread by @bemused interesting. 

 

Thanks so much! I noticed it mentions the altercation with Alliser Thorne, which I had forgotten about.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

27 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

To the OP, Bran wakes spontaneously at the same point when Lady dies which tells me that the warg bond between the Stark kids and their respective wolves is a lot more fluid than it first appears extending between the wolves themselves, and possibly between the Stark kids directly.

The wolves themselves are connected. Bran knows Robb and Grey Wind are dead because of a dream Summer had. Jon has a dream of the Red Wedding, but mistakes the direwolf in the crypts for Summer instead of Grey Wind and he says that he knows that Ghost knows that Lady is dead, there's the dream of Shaggydog fighting the unicorn and Nymeria off in the riverlands howling at the moon with her pack. There's that connecting that happens between Bran while he's in the crypts and Jon while he's beyond the Wall, through Ghost. I think the closeness between the siblings helps the bond along.

Quote

Jojen says that he can't be hooked up to the weirnet because he's not a warg, so it looks like being a warg is just a small part of something larger.

Only one in a thousand is born a skinchanger and only one skinchanger in a thousand is a greenseer. Jojen has green dreams but isn't a skinchanger, Jon is a warg, but seems to have different types of dreams, or perhaps it's as Melisandre said, Jon resists his power, so he hinders himself. Arya is a skinchanger and is so far limited to wolf dreams, although Nymeria doesn't seem to connect to Ghost or Summer in the way they connect to her.

[kissdbyfire]

Wolf blood and waking the dragon = the beast within. IMO. And we all have it, to greater or lesser degree. 

[Lollygag]

8 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The wolves themselves are connected. Bran knows Robb and Grey Wind are dead because of a dream Summer had. Jon has a dream of the Red Wedding, but mistakes the direwolf in the crypts for Summer instead of Grey Wind and he says that he knows that Ghost knows that Lady is dead, there's the dream of Shaggydog fighting the unicorn and Nymeria off in the riverlands howling at the moon with her pack. There's that connecting that happens between Bran while he's in the crypts and Jon while he's beyond the Wall, through Ghost. I think the closeness between the siblings helps the bond along.

That's an interesting thought. It makes me think of Nymeria pulling Catelyn from the river. That emotional connection might be very, very important.

8 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Only one in a thousand is born a skinchanger and only one skinchanger in a thousand is a greenseer. Jojen has green dreams but isn't a skinchanger, Jon is a warg, but seems to have different types of dreams, or perhaps it's as Melisandre said, Jon resists his power, so he hinders himself. Arya is a skinchanger and is so far limited to wolf dreams, although Nymeria doesn't seem to connect to Ghost or Summer in the way they connect to her. 

Jon def resists his powers. Actually, all of the older Stark kids do. Bran, Arya and Rickon are younger and closer to their instincts. At the beginning of AGOT, Robb, Jon and Sansa have entered their adult roles in the real world which means moving away from those instincts. Getting in touch with his wargy self is probably #879 on Jon's to-do list. Kid is seriously overwhelmed. This was the case with Robb (being King) and Sansa (navigating/surviving KL and losing Lady didn't help), too. Bran and Arya being younger were less immersed in those adult roles so that's the big reason I think they're naturally stronger. And Rickon being only 4 when he came to Shaggydog and then being raised on Skagos will be very unique from them all. It's one of those realistic character handlings of GRRM's that I really enjoy in these books.

I only realized recently (facepalm me) that there's no known proper replacement for Bloodraven. Bran seems to have been put into that role, but he has blue eyes, not red or green. No Stark kid has green or red eyes and no green- or red-eyed character that I recall has any solid hints of being a warg or skinchanger besides BR. So Jojen + Bran (or any Stark kid?) = greenseer?

ADWD Bran III

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

Bloodraven talked about waiting and waiting, so maybe there's only hinky options left?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I only realized recently (facepalm me) that there's no known proper replacement for Bloodraven. Bran seems to have been put into that role, but he has blue eyes, not red or green. No Stark kid has green or red eyes and no green- or red-eyed character that I recall has any solid hints of being a warg or skinchanger besides BR. So Jojen + Bran (or any Stark kid?) = greenseer?

Who did Bloodraven replace? Was it a child of the forest or was it a human? Or did he come along a thousand years after the greenseer he replaced died?

And even so, is Bloodraven supposed to have a replacement? He is called the last greenseer. If he is called that, then it means there's no one after him, imo. 

And while the Stark children don't have green eyes or red eyes, their wolves do. Ghost is an albino, just like Bloodraven is and Shaggydog's eye color is commented on more than once in the text. The other wolves have yellow/golden eyes, which is the usual eye color of the children. So perhaps the wolves are the ones that are marked rather than the children themselves. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And even so, is Bloodraven supposed to have a replacement? He is called the last greenseer. If he is called that, then it means there's no one after him, imo.

My take has always been that he is the last remaining greenseer in the current timeline, but that in the past there have been many at any given point in time. There’s quite a few passages in the WB that point to this, like the one below.

TWoIaF, The Riverlands

“Yet neither tooth nor talon was a match for the steel axes of the Andals, who slaughtered the greenseers, the beasts, and the First Men alike, and raised beside the High Heart a hill of corpses half again as high … or so the singers would have us believe.”

As to Bran, we know he is a greenseer, as Bloodraven tells him in Dance:

“Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. “Will this make me a greenseer?”
“Your blood makes you a greenseer,” said Lord Brynden. “This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.”

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

As to Bran, we know he is a greenseer, as Bloodraven tells him in Dance:

“Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. “Will this make me a greenseer?”
“Your blood makes you a greenseer,” said Lord Brynden. “This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.”

Well, you see, I'd totally forgotten about.

[Lollygag]

So Bloodraven is the Last Greenseer but Bran is also a greenseer. Also remember that Bran saw a lot of dead who failed the test. 3EC talked about looking for Bran for a long time.

Bran is told that greenseers have green or red eyes, but is also told that his blood makes him a greenseer when Bran is blue-eyed.

These look like some serious contradictions in the text.

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm really not sure as to the correct interpretation, but there's another interpretation for this passage.

“Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. “Will this make me a greenseer?”
“Your blood makes you a greenseer,” said Lord Brynden. “This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.”

"Your blood" can also refer to Bran's bowl of what appears to be blood which is prominently mentioned here. It's quite ambiguous as to what "your blood" refers.

[Buried Treasure]

20 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Jon has a dream of the Red Wedding, but mistakes the direwolf in the crypts for Summer instead of Grey Wind and he says that he knows that Ghost knows that Lady is dead...J

 

...Jon is a warg, but seems to have different types of dreams, or perhaps it's as Melisandre said, Jon resists his power, so he hinders himself. Arya is a skinchanger and is so far limited to wolf dreams, although Nymeria doesn't seem to connect to Ghost or Summer in the way they connect to her.

I agree that Jon has been resisting his dreams, but definitely think it is the different type of dreams too. His wolf dreams link him to what is going on with the others' wolves at that time, but the example you give of him dreaming the RW was IIRC prophetic and I think from his Targ heritage.

I am not convinced that Targs have a ton of super special powers; fire-reistance & dragon-links seem mostly incident and context specific. However there is an established talent for prophetic dreaming that  runs in the line. Daenaerys the Dreamer and Daeron the Drunk were both true prophets that had frequent prophetic dreams, and there are indications that other Targaryens have a latent version of the gift which gives them true dreams when they are in a heightened state; Maester Aemon had dragon dreams when he was sick and  fevered, Dany through her pregnancy and when fevered. Jon has warg dreams regularly but his prophetic dreams I think have also tended to be when he is injured - though they do not count as 'dragon' dreams as prophets see more easily what is close to them and Jon is closer to his Stark kin than his Targaryen side.

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

A very interesting question. I think maybe some aspects of the creature that is warged leave themselves in the warg, hence why some have speculated Jon will be more wolflike when he gets resurrected in Winds, and Rickon seems somewhat feral due to warning Shaggydog. The Stark kids w the exception of Sansa retain that sort of need to hunt and beast-like strength from their warging in their living states. I am curious if this same effect occurs if someone were to warg a dragon, as I know Daenaerys has prophetic dreams as Maester Aemon and her forebears like Daenys did, and Targs have a greater heat resistance than normal folks (but aren't fireproof). However, no one in the series as of yet has warged a dragon, so I am curious to see what happens. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

So Bloodraven is the Last Greenseer but Bran is also a greenseer.

I read that as “the last greenseer” being how he is known, or has been known up to now. I also don’t think Bran is quite there yet, as of the last time we saw him. In all likelihood that final scene w/ the paste is the moment Bran becomes a greenseer. Looking at it that way, Bloodraven still is the last greenseer. 

Quote

Also remember that Bran saw a lot of dead who failed the test. 3EC talked about looking for Bran for a long time.

Did they fail? Or did they have their time as greenseers and eventually died? I’m not sure if this is the passage you were referring to, but here, the skulls in niches have roots growing in and out of them, and to me that suggests they were “wed to the trees”.

“Bones,” said Bran. “It’s bones.” The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.”

 

Quote

Bran is told that greenseers have green or red eyes, but is also told that his blood makes him a greenseer when Bran is blue-eyed.

When Bloodraven talks to Bran about this, he’s talking about the CotF greenseers. And yes, it’s a bit tricky, b/c we know Bloodraven’s eye(s) is red. But we’re never told anything about other human greenseers.

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”
“I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children,” Bran said. “The singers, I mean.”
“In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.”

 

Quote

These look like some serious contradictions in the text.

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm really not sure as to the correct interpretation, but there's another interpretation for this passage.

“Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. “Will this make me a greenseer?”
“Your blood makes you a greenseer,” said Lord Brynden. “This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.”

"Your blood" can also refer to Bran's bowl of what appears to be blood which is prominently mentioned here. It's quite ambiguous as to what "your blood" refers.

I think it would be really odd to phrase it like that, if what was meant was the veins of red in the bowl that look like blood... Maybe if Bloodraven said, “the blood”, but “your blood”, IMO, means Bran’s blood/lineage. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, The Ghost Beyond the Wall said:

if someone were to warg skinchange a dragon

FTFY. Sorry, it’s a massive pet peeve of mine. 

[Lollygag]

UGH. GRRRR. Damned forum ate my reply. Short version.

41 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I read that as “the last greenseer” being how he is known, or has been known up to now. I also don’t think Bran is quite there yet, as of the last time we saw him. In all likelihood that final scene w/ the paste is the moment Bran becomes a greenseer. Looking at it that way, Bloodraven still is the last greenseer. 

Maybe. But it's needlessly confusing though which is an odd choice. GRRM's clear about their warging/skinchanging. Why be confusing here?

41 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Did they fail? Or did they have their time as greenseers and eventually died? I’m not sure if this is the passage you were referring to, but here, the skulls in niches have roots growing in and out of them, and to me that suggests they were “wed to the trees”.

“Bones,” said Bran. “It’s bones.” The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.”

I agree with your interpretation on this passage but I was thinking of when Bran was falling in AGOT and he saw all of the dead dreamers impaled below him.

41 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

When Bloodraven talks to Bran about this, he’s talking about the CotF greenseers. And yes, it’s a bit tricky, b/c we know Bloodraven’s eye(s) is red. But we’re never told anything about other human greenseers.

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”
“I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children,” Bran said. “The singers, I mean.”
“In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.”

BR starts out talking about men. The red/green marks those gifted by the gods. So why would the gods use a different marker for men? We also have 2 men - BR and Jojen - who exactly fit red/green with physical limitations in the text at the same time. It doesn't make sense from a writing perspective to have a different standard for men but to then to include men who exemplify that it's the same.

41 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think it would be really odd to phrase it like that, if what was meant was the veins of red in the bowl that look like blood... Maybe if Bloodraven said, “the blood”, but “your blood”, IMO, means Bran’s blood/lineage. 

It's very odd. But it's a great idea if you want to convince Bran to do something he clearly doesn't want to do. BR can't exactly tell him the truth if it's actually the case that the blood in the bowl is what will make him a greenseer. It's a slight of hand/wordplay that Hand of the King and trickster BR would be very adept at. And for GRRM to put a neon sign with flashing arrows around the bowl of blood that Bran has in his hands and then to make an ambiguous reference to "Bran's blood" is atypical if it's an accident. He's usually a much more careful writer than that.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

UGH. GRRRR. Damned forum ate my reply. Short version.

Maybe. But it's needlessly confusing though which is an odd choice. GRRM's clear about their warging/skinchanging. Why be confusing here?

I suppose I don’t find it confusing... Which doesn’t mean anything at all; I am aware that my take can be 100% incorrect.

11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I agree with your interpretation on this passage but I was thinking of when Bran was falling in AGOT and he saw all of the dead dreamers impaled below him.

But weren’t those dead dreamers in the Heart of Winter? I need to go reread the passage, I may be confusing two different things. 

11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

BR starts out talking about men. The red/green marks those gifted by the gods. So why would the gods use a different marker for men? We also have 2 men - BR and Jojen - who exactly fit red/green with physical limitations in the text at the same time. It doesn't make sense from a writing perspective to have a different standard for men but to then to include men who exemplify that it's the same.

Again, this is just how I read it, and can be totally off... But yeah, Bloodraven starts talking about human greenseers, and then Bran says, “I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children”. And then Bloodraven starts talking about the CotF, and that’s when he brings up the eye colour. But it’s super foggy, the whole thing. Also, Jojen has moss-green eyes, yes, but he isn’t a greenseer, he only has green dreams. 

11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's very odd. But it's a great idea if you want to convince Bran to do something he clearly doesn't want to do. BR can't exactly tell him the truth if it's actually the case that the blood in the bowl is what will make him a greenseer. It's a slight of hand/wordplay that Hand of the King and trickster BR would be very adept at. And for GRRM to put a neon sign with flashing arrows around the bowl of blood that Bran has in his hands and then to make an ambiguous reference to "Bran's blood" is atypical if it's an accident. He's usually a much more careful writer than that.

Maybe. But it doesn’t really feel like Martin’s style of obfuscation to me, it would feel like a type of cheat that I don’t really think he goes for. The red/green eyes stuff above otoh is right up his obfuscating alley IMO.