Skinchanging bonds

[Lollygag]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

But weren’t those dead dreamers in the Heart of Winter? I need to go reread the passage, I may be confusing two different things. 

Yeah. I'm confused by the Last Greenseer but there's such an intense search out there for the next one. Using the term "Last" strikes me as odd if you think there are more out there and are actively looking for them. I think we're not being told everything here.

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Again, this is just how I read it, and can be totally off... But yeah, Bloodraven starts talking about human greenseers, and then Bran says, “I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children”. And then Bloodraven starts talking about the CotF, and that’s when he brings up the eye colour. But it’s super foggy, the whole thing. Also, Jojen has moss-green eyes, yes, but he isn’t a greenseer, he only has green dreams. 

 Lots and lots of fog around this subject. My take, and I might be wrong especially as GRRM seems to keeping things tight to the chest on this subject, is that a greendreamer is a greenseer-lite. Kinda like how a warg is a limited skinchanger, a greendreamer sees only in dreams but is not a seer otherwise. In the Maggy the Frog thread, it's been noticed that Yen and Maggy can use blood to see the future, but with Melara, Maggy didn't need the blood implying she's something stronger. So these degrees of power have a strong precedent in ASOIAF.

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe. But it doesn’t really feel like Martin’s style of obfuscation to me, it would feel like a type of cheat that I don’t really think he goes for. The red/green eyes stuff above otoh is right up his obfuscating alley IMO. 

I don't disagree. GRRM typically doesn't get so technical with grammar rules.

But I just can't overlook Bran's holding a bowl of blood/Bran has the wrong eye color/the vague reference to Bran's blood (in his hands or in his veins?).  GRRM could have had BR answer a simple yes or no to Bran's question and avoided the confusion, at least on this.

Def a crackpot on my part, but there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, the stone statues, Winter is Coming always struck me as the Starks maybe being a backup, a last ditch defense, or something like that. I've entertained the idea that the blue and gray eyed Starks may not be natural or ideal greenseers, but maybe they can stand in as substitutes if desperate and with some tweeking or hybridization. The arrival of the direwolves, Bran's experience in the cave, all of the dead dreamers have me entertaining the idea that the Stark kids are being shoe-horned into something because time is up and it might not be a clean or natural fit.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

33 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Def a crackpot on my part, but there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, the stone statues, Winter is Coming always struck me as the Starks maybe being a backup, a last ditch defense, or something like that.

I think it's quiet possible. But whatever they used to know has been forgotten or not passed down. 

I actually realized that Bloodraven might have known a few Starks in his time as lord commander of the Night's Watch. Lord commanders tend to travel to Winterfell every now and again. We know Mance Rayder traveled to Winterfell with Lord Commander Qorgyle.

Bloodraven might have done the same and he might have known Bran's great-grandfather (Edwyle) and Lord Rickard as well. If there was knowledge that was passed, it might have died with Rickard when he was executed. 

Plus there's kinship between BR and the Starks, through House Blackwood.

Quote

I've entertained the idea that the blue and gray eyed Starks may not be natural or ideal greenseers, but maybe they can stand in as substitutes if desperate and with some tweeking or hybridization. The arrival of the direwolves, Bran's experience in the cave, all of the dead dreamers have me entertaining the idea that the Stark kids are being shoe-horned into something because time is up and it might not be a clean or natural fit.

Does the eye color matter all that much, though? The Ghost of High Heart seems to be a female version of Bloodraven, but as far as we know, she's not a greenseer. She has prophetic dreams, but it doesn't seem like she's a skinchanger.

And Bran's "awakening" happens after traumatic events in his life. It happens after his fall, and he opens his third eye after the fall of Winterfell. And he reaching out to Jon while he was beyond the Wall had to be some pretty powerful magic because the Wall has acted as a barrier between Jon and Ghost, Ghost and Summer after Bran went beyond the Wall. 

I don't know if this makes sense. 

[Lollygag]

41 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think it's quiet possible. But whatever they used to know has been forgotten or not passed down. 

I actually realized that Bloodraven might have known a few Starks in his time as lord commander of the Night's Watch. Lord commanders tend to travel to Winterfell every now and again. We know Mance Rayder traveled to Winterfell with Lord Commander Qorgyle.

Bloodraven might have done the same and he might have known Bran's great-grandfather (Edwyle) and Lord Rickard as well. If there was knowledge that was passed, it might have died with Rickard when he was executed. 

Plus there's kinship between BR and the Starks, through House Blackwood.

,These didn't occur to me! Also, the Blackwoods used to hold the Wolf's Wood but they were kicked out of the North for some mysterious reason and they have that dead weirwood which is odd. It makes me think the Blackwoods might know things the Starks don't.

44 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Does the eye color matter all that much, though? The Ghost of High Heart seems to be a female version of Bloodraven, but as far as we know, she's not a greenseer. She has prophetic dreams, but it doesn't seem like she's a skinchanger.

And Bran's "awakening" happens after traumatic events in his life. It happens after his fall, and he opens his third eye after the fall of Winterfell. And he reaching out to Jon while he was beyond the Wall had to be some pretty powerful magic because the Wall has acted as a barrier between Jon and Ghost, Ghost and Summer after Bran went beyond the Wall. 

I don't know if this makes sense. 

It's possible it doesn't, or at least it's not as rigid as presented, but it's weird to state it unequivocally to Bran and the reader, to show it to be true in BR and Jojen, to name it as a mark directly from the gods which sounds pretty important, and then to backtrack on it with no explanation.

The Ghost of High Heart does give me pause. I know of nothing hinting at her being a skinchanger. She might be like Jojen, someone who's like a weak greenseer seeing only under limited circumstances so not up to the level of a true greenseerer, kind of like how a warg is a limited skinchanger. She doesn't seem to have the physical limitations that BR and Jojen were born with. Also, not all red- and green-eyed people are greenseers (Mel, any given Lannister, LF...). I can only think that the greenseeing thing has levels, iand is complicated and varied like warging/skinchanging. I dunno. 

I agree that Bran is very unique but he just doesn't fit the mold as we've been told. Also, Bran's physical limitations are from a recent accident but BR and Jojen were born with theirs which for me is a better fit for a mark from the gods. It feels a bit more like Bran and to a lesser extent the other Stark kids being shoe-horned into something. The 3EC also freaked when Bran started to remember Jaime tossing him and Summer knew something was up with Bran going near that window so I wonder if the 3EC wanted Bran to have an accident so he could progress down that path. Becoming a tree person sounds a lot better to a kid who feels like he has no other good options than it would to a healthy high-born kid with lots of options.

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

So Bloodraven is the Last Greenseer but Bran is also a greenseer. Also remember that Bran saw a lot of dead who failed the test. 3EC talked about looking for Bran for a long time.

Bran is told that greenseers have green or red eyes, but is also told that his blood makes him a greenseer when Bran is blue-eyed.

These look like some serious contradictions in the text.

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm really not sure as to the correct interpretation, but there's another interpretation for this passage.

“Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. “Will this make me a greenseer?”
“Your blood makes you a greenseer,” said Lord Brynden. “This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.”

"Your blood" can also refer to Bran's bowl of what appears to be blood which is prominently mentioned here. It's quite ambiguous as to what "your blood" refers.

Hiyha Lollygag, I read the bit about the eye colors of greenseers, red and green, to be the color of Children of the Forest eyes, not humans.  So long as Bran doesn't pop a pair of sapphires in I think we'll be OK no matter what color his eyes...and they could always change with his awesomeness.  

[Lollygag]

Just now, Curled Finger said:

Hiyha Lollygag, I read the bit about the eye colors of greenseers, red and green, to be the color of Children of the Forest eyes, not humans.  So long as Bran doesn't pop a pair of sapphires in I think we'll be OK no matter what color his eyes...and they could always change with his awesomeness.  

Yikes. Hopefully no sapphire eyes for Bran.

I see that, but it's showing human greenseer BR with red eyes and limitation of albinism (no sunblock in Westeros) and human greendreamer (greenseer-lite?) Jojen with "strange" green eyes and another congenital physical limitation... it's just too weird for me to think it's CotF only when those human examples were presented to the reader at the same time.

I feel like I'm being sold 2+2=5: green or red eyes and congenital physical probs for CotF greenseers + human BR and Jojen fitting exactly that description = blue-eyed Bran who only had a recent accident is somehow also a greenseer. Something's clearly missing though I can't say what.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

agree that Bran is very unique but he just doesn't fit the mold as we've been told. Also, Bran's physical limitations are from a recent accident but BR and Jojen were born with theirs which for me is a better fit for a mark from the gods.

We know next to nothing about BR's childhood, but Jojen started having greendreams only after he almost died of greywater fever. The 3EC went to him while he was sick and gave him the gift of greensight.

I think that Euron is another one who was visited by the 3EC and that it might have broken his mind.

That quote you mentioned earlier;

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid. (Bran III, AGoT 17, p. 137)

This has made me wonder for some time if there isn't a battle between 3EC and the Others for the greenseers. Those are "failed" dreamers, so they lose that part that makes them "dreamers" and become a bunch of Eurons and agents of the Others.

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I agree that Bran is very unique but he just doesn't fit the mold as we've been told. Also, Bran's physical limitations are from a recent accident but BR and Jojen were born with theirs which for me is a better fit for a mark from the gods.

Well... in Bloodraven’s case there’s that arrow through the eye he took. We are never told whether he had a near-death experience from that, but it’s possible it was grave enough to have a similar effect to Bran’s fall.  And in Jojen’s case, it was the swamp fever that nearly killed him that awakened his gift. So, to me, seems pretty similar to Bran’s as well.

Quote

It feels a bit more like Bran and to a lesser extent the other Stark kids being shoe-horned into something. The 3EC also freaked when Bran started to remember Jaime tossing him and Summer knew something was up with Bran going near that window so I wonder if the 3EC wanted Bran to have an accident so he could progress down that path. Becoming a tree person sounds a lot better to a kid who feels like he has no other good options than it would to a healthy high-born kid with lots of options.

I’ve seen the idea that Bloodraven wanted Bran to have the accident before, but I’m not sure. If we take the direwolves as a “gift from the Old Gods”, or that they were sent by Bloodraven himself, then it doesn’t make sense IMO. As you mentioned, Summer was very distressed when Bran went climbing that day. Also, BR tells Bran he’s been watching the Starks since long before Bran was born, as if he knew/hoped a greenseer/powerful skinchanger would be born from the Stark line. 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Alexis-something-Rose said:

We know next to nothing about BR's childhood, but Jojen started having greendreams only after he almost died of greywater fever. The 3EC went to him while he was sick and gave him the gift of greensight. 

I think that Euron is another one who was visited by the 3EC and that it might have broken his mind. 

That quote you mentioned earlier;

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid. (Bran III, AGoT 17, p. 137)

This has made me wonder for some time if there isn't a battle between 3EC and the Others for the greenseers. Those are "failed" dreamers, so they lose that part that makes them "dreamers" and become a bunch of Eurons and agents of the Others. 

I'll keep an eye out for the details on Jojen next time I reread that part. That raises even more questions! It was stated that the gods mark them, but here we have the 3EC doing it?

Agree that Euron was likely visited by the 3EC. Another crackpot of mine has that the bizarro weirwoods in Qarth are a sort of wireless weirnet which is why they're somehow wrong so Euron found a way to tap into a weirnet, just not the one he first learned about. Dany's whole HOTU adventure reads like she's in the trees which isn't far-fetched given she's half Blackwood.

I like the idea about the failed dreamers and the battle between the 3EC and the Others. What they do to control the wights looks like a form of skinchanging. I can't get away from the Vlad the Impaler imagery of that scene but haven't gone down that rabbit hole yet to see if I think if it's related or not.

 

[Lollygag]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well... in Bloodraven’s case there’s that arrow through the eye he took. We are never told whether he had a near-death experience from that, but it’s possible it was grave enough to have a similar effect to Bran’s fall.  And in Jojen’s case, it was the swamp fever that nearly killed him that awakened his gift. So, to me, seems pretty similar to Bran’s as well.

I was thinking more about BR's albinism which is very limiting even with sunblock. Rightly or wrongly, I was thinking that Jojen was just not a long-timer, fever or not, but I might not be remembering that right. Just sickly by nature compared to the super-healthy Meera. I'll watch for that on reread in case I got that wrong.

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’ve seen the idea that Bloodraven wanted Bran to have the accident before, but I’m not sure. If we take the direwolves as a “gift from the Old Gods”, or that they were sent by Bloodraven himself, then it doesn’t make sense IMO. As you mentioned, Summer was very distressed when Bran went climbing that day. Also, BR tells Bran he’s been watching the Starks since long before Bran was born, as if he knew/hoped a greenseer/powerful skinchanger would be born from the Stark line. 

I'm not convinced either for what it's worth but there's enough for me to play with the idea. BR/3EC/(old gods?)'s behavior leaves me confused in general. I agree about that line with BR saying he's been watching the Starks but if Bran's a greenseer, we're missing the info to flesh out how that works. That there's something special about the Starks might play into them being potentially unique greenseers, rather than the typical ones. I don't know. I'm not convinced about Bran being the Prince that was Promised, but I can't ignore how often Prince comes up with Bran.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I was thinking more about BR's albinism which is very limiting even with sunblock. Rightly or wrongly, I was thinking that Jojen was just not a long-timer, fever or not, but I might not be remembering that right. Just sickly by nature compared to the super-healthy Meera. I'll watch for that on reread in case I got that wrong.

Yeah, I know what you’re saying irt BR’s albinism. Just to play w/ what you said earlier regarding the red/green eye colour applying to human greenseers as well... the way I see it is, BR has red eyes, Jojen has moss-green eyes; that’s how they were marked by the Gods, as in, they have potential. Then, BR’s arrow through the eye and Jojen’s swamp fever is what awakened their gifts. In Bran’s case, there’s no red/green eye colour, but maybe the “mark” in his case is his bloodline? I can’t get into it proper at the mo, but I have always thought that most northern FM houses have skinchanging potential since the time of the pact. Especially the obvious ones like Mormont, Blackwood (originally), Umber, etc. 

10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not convinced either for what it's worth but there's enough for me to play with the idea. BR/3EC/(old gods?)'s behavior leaves me confused in general. I agree about that line with BR saying he's been watching the Starks but if Bran's a greenseer, we're missing the info to flesh out how that works. That there's something special about the Starks might play into them being potentially unique greenseers, rather than the typical ones. I don't know.

Sorry, cut the post in the wrong spot, should have been here. So yeah, Starks and others as potential skinchangers/greenseers.

10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not convinced about Bran being the Prince that was Promised, but I can't ignore how often Prince comes up with Bran.

Even little things like, Theon’s ADwD chapter The Prince of Winterfell is when Bran first reaches out to Theon through the heart tree. As in, Theon is not really the Prince of Winterfell, but Bran actually is, and that’s the title of the chapter. 

We just really, really need more info. 

[Yaya]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Yeah. I'm confused by the Last Greenseer but there's such an intense search out there for the next one. Using the term "Last" strikes me as odd if you think there are more out there and are actively looking for them. I think we're not being told everything here.

like the discussion going on !
i would quote everyone but Lollygag is the closest to me as i reply ...

... and now, as i type, KBF replies in front of me with stuff i like too !

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

... the way I see it is, BR has red eyes, Jojen has moss-green eyes; that’s how they were marked by the Gods, as in, they have potential. Then, BR’s arrow through the eye and Jojen’s swamp fever is what awakened their gifts. In Bran’s case, there’s no red/green eye colour, but maybe the “mark” in his case is his bloodline?

LAST Greenseer could be a title as in something like the "LAST Greenseer".  could be that this is the blockchain keeper of sorts, a vault type of person on the weirwood memory chain.
(symbolically, a vault could tie in with the CRYPTS at Winterfell or any barrow or boneyard)

OR the LAST Greenseer that was the last of them Greenseers that "saw" all the events that are being remembered or shared or whatnot.

 

OR the LAST Greenseer because maybe there is a Blackseer &/or  Redseer and they are waiting on their third? 

(maybe i have too much tinfoil with all these the holiday leftovers ...)

 

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Hiyha Lollygag, I read the bit about the eye colors of greenseers, red and green, to be the color of Children of the Forest eyes, not humans.  So long as Bran doesn't pop a pair of sapphires in I think we'll be OK no matter what color his eyes...and they could always change with his awesomeness.  

Yes, indeed, CotF and humans are different species, why should eye colour in one have any bearing to eye colour in the other????????

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Something's clearly missing though I can't say what.

Yeah, Bran's human, not a Singer....

and

.... there's no reason at all to expect humans with certain abilities to have superficial similarities to Singers with the same abilities

[Rufus Snow]

41 minutes ago, Yaya said:

(maybe i have too much tinfoil with all these the holiday leftovers ...)

Maybe

 

but I read it as meaning greenseers were once far more common, and BR is the only one still alive - doesn't mean he's some mystical uber-greenseer, or the last shout for the phenomenon if he dies, just that, well, there ain't any others.... unless Bran can be hitched to a treee in time......

 

ps ETA etc oit's the early hours of the new year here, please don't tkae anything I might say to heart, all I can sayh is the local pub serves some fine whiskies and tghe bottles arfe npow all emptgy..,,,.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

only realized recently (facepalm me) that there's no known proper replacement for Bloodraven. Bran seems to have been put into that role, but he has blue eyes, not red or green. No Stark kid has green or red eyes and no green- or red-eyed character that I recall has any solid hints of being a warg or skinchanger besides BR. So Jojen + Bran (or any Stark kid?) = greenseer?

Yeah! I never thought of that before & it fits with Jojen paste.

20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

A clue to Jojen's fate? 

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Your blood" can also refer to Bran's bowl of what appears to be blood which is prominently mentioned here. It's quite ambiguous as to what "your blood" refers.

So, Bran eats his Jojen paste, making him a greenseer. Presumably BR would have used Jojen alone except for he isn't a skin changer. He's been waiting for the right combo of people to add to the weirnet. That's why he has Jojen lead Bran to him. 

 

ETA: sorry, just realized I'm late to the party & you & KBF have already discussed this! Anyway, I like it. 

[kissdbyfire]

17 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

but I read it as meaning greenseers were once far more common, and BR is the only one still alive

17 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

- doesn't mean he's some mystical uber-greenseer,

It may not mean that, but Bloodraven most definitely is a mystical uber awesome greenseer! And don’t you dare disagree!

17 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

or the last shout for the phenomenon if he dies, just that, well, there ain't any others.... unless Bran can be hitched to a treee in time......

I don’t think being physically one w/ the heart tree is a requirement. 

17 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

ps ETA etc oit's the early hours of the new year here, please don't tkae anything I might say to heart, all I can sayh is the local pub serves some fine whiskies and tghe bottles arfe npow all emptgy..,,,.

Are you suffering from the brown bottle flu today?

Happy 2020 everyone!

[Curled Finger]

23 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Yikes. Hopefully no sapphire eyes for Bran.

I see that, but it's showing human greenseer BR with red eyes and limitation of albinism (no sunblock in Westeros) and human greendreamer (greenseer-lite?) Jojen with "strange" green eyes and another congenital physical limitation... it's just too weird for me to think it's CotF only when those human examples were presented to the reader at the same time.

I feel like I'm being sold 2+2=5: green or red eyes and congenital physical probs for CotF greenseers + human BR and Jojen fitting exactly that description = blue-eyed Bran who only had a recent accident is somehow also a greenseer. Something's clearly missing though I can't say what.

You know, I see that and have to admit you are 100% right.  We don't really know what much means, do we?   

[AryaRegina]

On 12/30/2019 at 10:40 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Only one in a thousand is born a skinchanger and only one skinchanger in a thousand is a greenseer. Jojen has green dreams but isn't a skinchanger, Jon is a warg, but seems to have different types of dreams, or perhaps it's as Melisandre said, Jon resists his power, so he hinders himself. Arya is a skinchanger and is so far limited to wolf dreams, although Nymeria doesn't seem to connect to Ghost or Summer in the way they connect to her. 

Arya slips into the skin of a cat, and she's able to move her body while seeing with the cat's eyes. She also slips into the skin of a cat in her sleep once, but she mistakes it for a wolf dream.

She does have a semi-prophetic dream in AGOT:

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"When they had first come to King's Landing, she used to have bad dreams about getting lost in the castle. Father said the Red Keep was smaller than Winterfell, but in her dreams it had been immense, an endless stone maze with walls that seemed to shift and change behind her. She would find herself wandering down gloomy halls past faded tapestries, descending endless circular stairs, darting through courtyards or over bridges, her shouts echoing unanswered. In some of the rooms the red stone walls would seem to drip blood, and nowhere could she find a window. Sometimes she would hear her father's voice, but always from a long way off, and no matter how hard she ran after it, it would grow fainter and fainter, until it faded to nothing and Arya was alone in the dark. "
-Arya III, AGOT

And the Heart Tree talks to her in Harrenhal:

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"In the godswood she found her broomstick sword where she had left it, and carried it to the heart tree. There she knelt. Red leaves rustled. Red eyes peered inside her. The eyes of the gods. "Tell me what to do, you gods," she prayed.

For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said.

"But there is no pack," she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan."

"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."

"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth."

-Arya X, ACOK

I doubt she's a greenseer though, Arya's magic abilities seems to be more in the realm of shape shifting, being a skinchanger and training with the faceless men.

[chrisdaw]

It is a good point. That a skinchanger takes back some of the characteristics of what it skinchanges with them when they return to their body isn't a theory, it's established fact in ASOIAF.
 

Quote

 

Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

 

That Jon skinchanges Ghost in his sleep and must then bring back characteristics of Ghost is basically straight from the text. It is likely that it manifests itself in ways like the passage posted in the OP and others.

I suggest we'll get more insight into this through big dreaming flying obsessed Crow's Eye Euron, the elaboration on skinchangers and birds seems like it is all for him.