Stormlight Archives 4: Rhythm of War (SPOILERS)

[Rhom]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

I don't think this is yet a full spoiler thread.

I had said I would wait a week before editing the first post for full spoilers.  That would be tomorrow.  I know its kind of an arbitrary date... Do you want me to go ahead and do it now?  It'll be another week or two at my current pace before I can jump in, so I know there's plenty of others who want to go ahead and get to it.

[Poobah]

7 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I had said I would wait a week before editing the first post for full spoilers.  That would be tomorrow.  I know its kind of an arbitrary date... Do you want me to go ahead and do it now?  It'll be another week or two at my current pace before I can jump in, so I know there's plenty of others who want to go ahead and get to it.

Oh no, I felt that the guy I was replying to should have used spoiler blocks for some of what he posted, which maybe I should have conveyed more clearly in calling that out. I don't really mind or feel put out by needing to take a moment to turn on the spoiler block and would prefer that people like you who haven't managed to hack your way through this enormous book in a week don't feel excluded.

[jurble]

8 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Finished it as well.  There's a lot to say, but mild disappointment is probably the most immediate reaction.  The slow slide in quality from the WoK continues. 

I think probably the most interesting and ambitious portion of the book was the attempt to grapple with Kaladin's and Shallan's mental health.  BS deserves credit for trying to write three-dimensional fantasy.  

  Hide contents

Rayse's sudden elimination was kind of anticlimactic and kind of weird.  Taravangian gets stabbed with Nightblood, then transports it to the Spiritual Realm and Odium, oblivious to the fact the man has a sword stuck through him, allows Taravangian to stab him?

I was also mystified by Hoid's sudden presentation as a key and hidden player in the contest for Roshar.  He's old as time and crafty AF but still turns up to meet with Odium carrying all his breaths?  At this point it's not even clear to me which individuals have what motives.  Cultivation is hiding in Shinovar, but also teaching Taravangian how to use his power?  Does she want Odium to win? 

Taravangian, having taken up the shard of Odium, could easily have preserved humanity as we have known since Book 1 was his overriding motive.  Instead he seems to have committed to becoming a craftier version of Rayse.  Why? I dunno.  

Also - the chapter epigraphs or what have you are the most extended bout of navel-gazing I've seen in my life.  

 

Spoiler

Taravangian wasn't stabbed with Nightblood, he would've poofed instantly.  The sequence isn't written clearly but it seems he was pulled into the Vision alongside Nightblood... but Szeth wasn't, somehow allowing Taravangian to draw Nightblood and stab Rayse.

Hoid's been actively trying to defeat Odium since book 1.  He was writing/receiving letters in the epigraphs of TWoK.  His memories are stored in his Breaths, so I don't imagine he hides them anywhere on a casual basis.

Cultivation isn't hiding in Shinovar, Shards exist in the Spiritual realm, their real bodies aren't cached somewhere physically.   I believe her hope is or was that Taravangian would be able to control the shard of Odium rather than agree with its desire to destroy the rest of the shards.

Yeah, iunno.  Either he legitimately, with the insight granted by the Shard's abilities, decided the other Shards were in fact inimical to the survival of humanity or the Shard's Intent just overrode him immediately.

I thought this was the weakest Stormlight book, which seems to be the consensus even among the Sanderson super-fans.   So little happens in so many pages, a great deal could have simply have been cut and have happened off-page.  I thought Oathbringer was weaker than the preceding two novels, but at least the ending was d r a m a t i c and exciting.  RoW was just lacking in compelling drama throughout. 

Having reread the series prior to RoW, I get the impression that Sanderson is writing the books as if they were meant to be adapted 1:1 to a 24-episode-a-season television series.  They're composed of so many little episodic plots that run alongside the larger plot. 

In any case, the major story take-away for the book going forwards is clearly 

Spoiler

Syl + Kaladin is now possible thanks to Ishar's experiments in turning spren into real people. 

 

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, jurble said:

I thought Oathbringer was weaker than the preceding two novels, but at least the ending was d r a m a t i c and exciting.  RoW was just lacking in compelling drama throughout. 

An interesting observation and one that actually often describes Wheel of Time novels - a series that Sanderson has cited as having influenced him as a writer. Lots of detail and a feeling of slowness - followed by an exciting and dramatic ending. The...Wheel of Time Effect?

[Rhom]

Changed up the first post to allow for spoilers.  Have at it!  I’ll be back when I finish the slog.

Also... in my original post, I wondered who would get the editorial/publishing cycle finished first; Sanderson or Lynch?  Boy, that has not aged well.

[Rhom]

13 hours ago, IlyaP said:

An interesting observation and one that actually often describes Wheel of Time novels - a series that Sanderson has cited as having influenced him as a writer. Lots of detail and a feeling of slowness - followed by an exciting and dramatic ending. The...Wheel of Time Effect?

I’m at the point where the expedition first enters Shadesmar and he spent an entire chapter discussing Adolin’s clothing.  I think Wheel of Time Effect is a very apt descriptor.

[Caligula_K3]

15 hours ago, IlyaP said:

An interesting observation and one that actually often describes Wheel of Time novels - a series that Sanderson has cited as having influenced him as a writer. Lots of detail and a feeling of slowness - followed by an exciting and dramatic ending. The...Wheel of Time Effect?

When I finished Oathbringer, I felt exactly this: I was in the middle of Wheel of Time again. Not Wheel of Time book 8 or 10, but somewhere around book 6, when you really felt the books began to be padded out. Oathbringer even ended with the requisite "we're about to beat the big boss! Oh no, he got away! Guess we'll see him in a sequel" WoT climax.

I was only going to consider reading Rhythm of War if it was shorter than Oathbringer and ideally, Words of Radiance. Instead, the bloat problem seems to have only increased...

[Ninefingers]

22 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

 

I was only going to consider reading Rhythm of War if it was shorter than Oathbringer and ideally, Words of Radiance. Instead, the bloat problem seems to have only increased...

The fundamental problem is that there's no such thing as a story that takes 10,000 pages to tell. 

If the books were more episodic in nature, fine. But they're just not. 

[Argonath Diver]

I am glad some of you have found some pleasure reading this book. I want to thank you all, also, for confirming my good decision to not even bother finishing Oathbringer, and abandoning this series. One mention of the anacronistic language brought up bad memories. I'm currently reading Tad Williams' Otherland series, which also features dialogue ranging from stilted traditional fantasy dialogue, to modern colloquialisms, to bizarre invented slang languages. I never physically wince the way I did so many times with Sanderson's bizarre choice of modern phrases nestled into his characters' inflections seemingly at random. I can't even imagine reading more about that one kid using her Awesomeness or whatever the hell that atrocious one-off chapter was. I can't recall ever reading a chapter of fiction I found so reprehensibly bad.

On a more positive note, I do still find a lot of joy in Sanderson's body of work. Some others' agreements that the Wax and Wayne books are great fun has made me interested in a quick re-read of those. It sounds like Sanderson has a fourth novel scheduled for next year. I realize now that I don't believe I've even gotten to the third. For those who have, do you expect the fourth novel to conclude that series? I think if I started a re-read today, I'd blaze through all three books within a week, and enjoy every minute, so perhaps I'll try to push them off until the next release.

[Gaston de Foix]

49 minutes ago, Argonath Diver said:

I am glad some of you have found some pleasure reading this book. I want to thank you all, also, for confirming my good decision to not even bother finishing Oathbringer, and abandoning this series. One mention of the anacronistic language brought up bad memories. I'm currently reading Tad Williams' Otherland series, which also features dialogue ranging from stilted traditional fantasy dialogue, to modern colloquialisms, to bizarre invented slang languages. I never physically wince the way I did so many times with Sanderson's bizarre choice of modern phrases nestled into his characters' inflections seemingly at random. I can't even imagine reading more about that one kid using her Awesomeness or whatever the hell that atrocious one-off chapter was. I can't recall ever reading a chapter of fiction I found so reprehensibly bad.

On a more positive note, I do still find a lot of joy in Sanderson's body of work. Some others' agreements that the Wax and Wayne books are great fun has made me interested in a quick re-read of those. It sounds like Sanderson has a fourth novel scheduled for next year. I realize now that I don't believe I've even gotten to the third. For those who have, do you expect the fourth novel to conclude that series? I think if I started a re-read today, I'd blaze through all three books within a week, and enjoy every minute, so perhaps I'll try to push them off until the next release.

 

I expect it to conclude the Wax and Wayne series.  Mistborn is a trilogy of trilogies with a tetralogy falling between the first and second trilogy.  This tetralogy is the ongoing Wax and Wayne series.  The first trilogy is The Final Empire to the Hero of the Ages.  If I were in your shoes I would wait until Book 4 has a release date then re-read the first two followed by a first read of the third and then read the fourth book fresh.  That way you would have wrapped up a consistent story arc. 

I grant Sanderson a certain amount of leeway as a writer because I spend a lot of my day writing as a lawyer.  When I started I used to polish and refine even as I drafted and it slowed the whole process done enormously.  Now when I write I translate my thoughts into words down on paper as quickly as I can and try to refine only after I have finished.  Part of the refining process is workshopping drafts with colleagues etc.  Sanderson's work comes across often as a third or fourth draft when he needs to get it to a sixth or seventh draft.  I think as he gotten bigger and bigger as a writer his beta readers, team and editors have all deferred to him too much in getting things out the door so he can meet his extremely ambitious goals.  At his best, like the Emperor's Soul and like a good deal of the short stories in Arcanum Unbound, he can tell a ripping yarn.  The problem is he doesn't have anyone to tell him no or its not good enough prior to publication.  

[Caligula_K3]

4 hours ago, Ninefingers said:

The fundamental problem is that there's no such thing as a story that takes 10,000 pages to tell. 

If the books were more episodic in nature, fine. But they're just not. 

It does take a certain amount of arrogance to think you need 8-9 War and Peaces to tell a story. In the end, I can't think of a single fantasy series that's needed anywhere close to ten doorstopper books. The whole idea is flawed, but you'd kind of hope that current authors would have learned from the mistakes of Jordan, Martin, and Erikson. Which, to be fair, it seems most have (or at least most publishers have).

I think with Sanderson it's even more apparent because the massive bloat problem started in Book 2, rather than book 4 or 5 or 6, and because Stormlight is so narrowly focused for such epic page counts, interludes aside. Do you really need 500 pages each book of Kaladin having the same existential crisis over and over?

[IlyaP]

4 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

It does take a certain amount of arrogance to think you need 8-9 War and Peaces to tell a story. In the end, I can't think of a single fantasy series that's needed anywhere close to ten doorstopper books. The whole idea is flawed, but you'd kind of hope that current authors would have learned from the mistakes of Jordan, Martin, and Erikson. Which, to be fair, it seems most have (or at least most publishers have).

This presents an interesting question. When is "bloat" officially "bloat"? What's the identifiable line in the sand? 

[AverageGuy]

On 11/23/2020 at 9:44 AM, Poobah said:

It's obvious from comments he's made on reddit and from the books themselves that he's put effort into getting feedback and guidance from people with the actual mental health problems he's portraying and that he's attempting to represent them in a respectful manner. 

I can appreciate what he's trying to do, "cracks in the soul" is thematically part of series. But Kaladin's survivor's guilt and Shallan's complex trauma end up feeling very similar. And not just in the culmination with the metaphorical/metaphysical retreat to a dark place until they say the magic words that bring back light.

[Ninefingers]

11 hours ago, AverageGuy said:

I can appreciate what he's trying to do, "cracks in the soul" is thematically part of series. But Kaladin's survivor's guilt and Shallan's complex trauma end up feeling very similar. And not just in the culmination with the metaphorical/metaphysical retreat to a dark place until they say the magic words that bring back light.

Not only do they feel similar to each other, but similar to the 3 times before the character went through the same thing.

It's been explored. Unless Sanderson has something new to say about it, he's just repeating himself. 

[jurble]

19 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Do you really need 500 pages each book of Kaladin having the same existential crisis over and over?

Sanderson has said his goal with Kaladin is to convey how suffering major depression is actually like.  Meaning that Kaladin might have some inspiring moment that lifts his mood for a bit, but he's inevitably going to come back down i.e. he is  mentally ill in a physiological sense, not suffering from existential ennui.  If you've ever dealt with people with bad  recurrent depression irl, it can be incredibly taxing to both themselves and those around them how they always seem to fall back into the same 'woe is me' thought-patterns after seeming to get better for a while.  Hence why mindfulness is considered good for this sort of thing - allowing people to recognize they're falling back into the woe-is-me thoughts and whatnot.

However, for a story, yes, seeing Kaladin go through the same thing repeatedly is tiresome. 

[Caligula_K3]

I commend Sanderson for wanting to explore the long-term debilitating effects of mental health issues, and for wanting to show that there often isn't a magical bullet characters can use to cure themselves. But there are authors who've done a much better job of showing this sort of cycle in 200 pages than Sanderson has in almost 5,000. It would probably be helpful if every book didn't end with Kaladin "leveling up" and having a breakthrough at the same time, and if there were more showing rather than telling.

As for bloat and what it is and who can recognize it, @IlyaP, if you get 20 fantasy fans in a room you'll probably have 30 answers. For me it manifests itself in a few different ways commonly in fantasy series: when an author starts taking more and more pages to accomplish something they used to be able to accomplish in many fewer; when an author falls in love with their worldbuilding to the detriment of characterization and plot; when an author starts to focus on minor characters and plotlines that ultimately don't matter much. But the threat of bloat is always there, especially when your starting point is that you need 10,000 pages to tell a story..

[Ninefingers]

20 hours ago, IlyaP said:

This presents an interesting question. When is "bloat" officially "bloat"? What's the identifiable line in the sand? 

The Justice Stewart standard probably applies here. 

[Rhom]

I just finished Section 2.  Kaladin has run off into the occupied tower.

I kind of want to stop here and read no further... if I do, I can convince myself that Urithuru has become the fantasy equivalent of Nakatomi Plaza!

I’m afraid if I read on, it won’t be that fun.

Yippee-Kai-Ay Pursuer!

[Rhom]

OMG! OMG! OMG!!!

Quote

But though he’s finally thought to take off his bloodied shoes ... he still felt as if he were leaving stained tracks behind him.

Can we get a scene of Kaladin McClain running barefoot across broken gem shards?!!!!?

[Rhom]

Oooooh... the terrorists were in the basement trying to break into the vault and then a big shield snapped down in place effectively cutting them off.

The big question now... is this all part of Raboniel’s devious plan?  Is she just waiting for the Rosharan FBI to come in and cut power to the block and drop the shield for her?!!?

I know now that despite any descriptors otherwise, the Pursuer will forever be a large blonde man with a German accent.