characters who are not as they seem?

[Rose of Red Lake]

I found this interesting, from a fan account in the Citadel: "He writes books that he would want to read and finds alot of fantasy deficient because everyone is as they seem-called it lazy writing; said we all wear masks and people are complex--they have heroism and monstrosity.' (x) 

Would you say Martin is doing a good job of writing characters who are not as they seem? Is anyone written lazily in your opinion?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I found this interesting, from a fan account in the Citadel: "He writes books that he would want to read and finds alot of fantasy deficient because everyone is as they seem-called it lazy writing; said we all wear masks and people are complex--they have heroism and monstrosity.' (x) 

Would you say Martin is doing a good job of writing characters who are not as they seem? Is anyone written lazily in your opinion?

I don't think anyone is written lazily & if even a quarter of the mysteries & theories written here are true I would say George is doing a marvelous job of writing characters who are not as they seem. 

[Rufus Snow]

Spot on, of course we all wear masks, it's the only way 95% of humanity gets through the day without self-immolating. The George carries that realisation through to his fiction and that's a big part of what I love about his work, I really can't think of many writers who get such a depth of character - maybe Gene Wolfe.... but GRRM really puts JRRT back in the box regarding character, though of course JRRT has the edge on phylology and mythology.

[SilverGhost]

Only really Darkstar and hopefully there is more than meets the eye on that plot line. 

[SeanF]

Ned, Catelyn, Daenerys, Sansa, Jon are all as they seem, IMHO.

The three Lannisters are all rather more complicated, I think.

[Nagini's Neville]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

Ned, Catelyn, Daenerys, Sansa, Jon are all as they seem, IMHO.

I guess it depends, who reads them..

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 12/31/2019 at 6:23 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Is anyone written lazily in your opinion?

 

No. Not at all. I think it's tricky with certain characters such as DarkStar as George clearly doesn't want us to know what his true purpose is. I don't think he even wanted to invite too much speculation. It's enough to know he's out there. Somewhere. 

IMO, it's George's expansive set of supporting characters that give the reader the most surprises. And I think that's the design of the story. 

The one true exception for me is Viserys Targaryen. He is an irredeemable asshole. He proceeds to vent his frustrations onto the one person he can bully. He does it frequently and relentlessly and never gives the reader pause for thought. He arrives on page, acts like a complete bastard, then leaves again.  He does this up until the moment he dies. I have the teeniest, tiniest bit of sympathy due to his exile. But the fact that nothing on Planetos served to humble him makes him very one-dimensional. That said, I think that's exactly what George wanted from him. We were never supposes to see him in a different light. And he isn't wearing a mask. What we see is what he is. And I think we were supposed to loath him as ser Jorah and the Dothraki do. 

[Platypus Rex]

Daario is Euron.  Burnt Frog is actually Tatters; and Frog, who still lives, is actually Aegon.  Young Griff is actually Quentyn.  Varys is a woman.   Brienne is a zombie.  Bonifer is Dunk's descendant.  Dany is a Stark.  Doran Martell is a bloodthirsty babykiller.  Rh'llor and the Great Other are actually good friends, if not actually one and the same.  Things are not as they seem.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Daario is Euron.  Burnt Frog is actually Tatters; and Frog, who still lives, is actually Aegon.  Young Griff is actually Quentyn.  Varys is a woman.   Brienne is a zombie.  Bonifer is Dunk's descendant.  Dany is a Stark.  Doran Martell is a bloodthirsty babykiller.  Rh'llor and the Great Other are actually good friends, if not actually one and the same.  Things are not as they seem.

You forgot Mance is Rhaegar, Tyrion is a Targ & Hotpie is Azor Ahai

[Darth Sidious]

On 12/31/2019 at 1:23 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I found this interesting, from a fan account in the Citadel: "He writes books that he would want to read and finds alot of fantasy deficient because everyone is as they seem-called it lazy writing; said we all wear masks and people are complex--they have heroism and monstrosity.' (x) 

Would you say Martin is doing a good job of writing characters who are not as they seem? Is anyone written lazily in your opinion?

The characters give clues as to who they are and what they want. It's just the readers refusing to see the clues.  Take Jon Snow.  It was established early on that he has a large chip on his shoulders.  He deserted the wall after taking his vows to help his brother fight the Lannisters.  It took the superior honor and dedication of the other boys to drag his sorry ass back to the wall. Jon always has been the kind of person who would desert duty, break his oath, sacrifice the lives of many for the sake of his family.  A lot of very bad decisions he made were done out of love and revenge for his family.  He represents one of the obstacles to unity and is an impediment to peace.

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You forgot Mance is Rhaegar, Tyrion is a Targ & Hotpie is Azor Ahai

Nope.  Those ones aren't true.

[Nagini's Neville]

4 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Daario is Euron.  Burnt Frog is actually Tatters; and Frog, who still lives, is actually Aegon.  Young Griff is actually Quentyn.  Varys is a woman.   Brienne is a zombie.  Bonifer is Dunk's descendant.  Dany is a Stark.  Doran Martell is a bloodthirsty babykiller.  Rh'llor and the Great Other are actually good friends, if not actually one and the same.  Things are not as they seem.

Don't you know, that Doran is a pedophile? And Rh'llor is actually the Mother from the Seven, that's why he/she wants Edric Storm.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You forgot Mance is Rhaegar, Tyrion is a Targ & Hotpie is Azor Ahai

Because Mance is Jon's father. I think, I'm having a aha moment. Oprah would be proud. And Dalla was Lyanna, right? Poor Jon, so close...

I think I figured out, that Mance is Jon's father, when they stood upon the wall together. Jon was talking about Ned, when Mance suddenly said: " No, I am your father!" (note NOT "Jon, I am your father"- that's important) He held out his hand to Jon and continued "Join me and together we can rule the Seven Kingdoms as father and son." But Jon just let himself fall of the Wall and right before he hit the ground he whispered "Ghost" and that's the last we've seen of him.

Btw did I mention, that Sansa is my favorite character? I can really relate to her.

[Elegant Woes]

Don't forget, Sansa is the worst person in Westeros. 

[The Sleeper]

That seems quite a generic comment. How are they not as they seem? To the readers or to other characters? As they first appear on the page or how they develop later on?

And in what fantasy did that person find this deficiency? Because thinking of authors like Martin, Hobb and say Abraham for instance, not to mention Le Guin from the earlier generation, lazy characterization is not something that can be said about fantasy authors in general. Certainly not the good ones.

[Reekazoid]

On 1/2/2020 at 12:44 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

 

No. Not at all. I think it's tricky with certain characters such as DarkStar as George clearly doesn't want us to know what his true purpose is. I don't think he even wanted to invite too much speculation. It's enough to know he's out there. Somewhere. 

IMO, it's George's expansive set of supporting characters that give the reader the most surprises. And I think that's the design of the story. 

The one true exception for me is Viserys Targaryen. He is an irredeemable asshole. He proceeds to vent his frustrations onto the one person he can bully. He does it frequently and relentlessly and never gives the reader pause for thought. He arrives on page, acts like a complete bastard, then leaves again.  He does this up until the moment he dies. I have the teeniest, tiniest bit of sympathy due to his exile. But the fact that nothing on Planetos served to humble him makes him very one-dimensional. That said, I think that's exactly what George wanted from him. We were never supposes to see him in a different light. And he isn't wearing a mask. What we see is what he is. And I think we were supposed to loath him as ser Jorah and the Dothraki do. 

Would you feel this way even if Viserys had the Targaryen taint, and was mad, or becoming mad?  Like, I agree with you, Viserys is a douche.  But if he is unsane , then it's not fully his fault.   I'm not claiming to be sure whether he is or isn't crazy, but the very fact that I can't be sure forces me to admit that the character is as well written as the others.

[Reekazoid]

On 1/3/2020 at 12:10 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

Don't you know, that Doran is a pedophile? And Rh'llor is actually the Mother from the Seven, that's why he/she wants Edric Storm.

 

Come on, lots of people enjoy seeing kids play and have fun.  That's not being very fair to Doran.  For it to be creepy, all these kids would need to like, idk, be butt naked all the time, and wrestle around in fountains all day, or something.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

Come on, lots of people enjoy seeing kids play and have fun.  That's not being very fair to Doran.  For it to be creepy, all these kids would need to like, idk, be butt naked all the time, and wrestle around in fountains all day, or something.

Dude, I was being ironic. I also don't believe Rh'llor is the Mother of the 7. Should have used a smiley or something  And maybe stop with all the bs posts LOL when I'm bored I get annoying. My apologies!

But now I can see how you can take that seriously, since someone actually made thread about it.

 

[Reekazoid]

32 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Dude, I was being ironic. I also don't believe Rh'llor is the Mother of the 7. Should have used a smiley or something  And maybe stop with all the bs posts LOL when I'm bored I get annoying. My apologies!

But now I can see how you can take that seriously, since someone actually made thread about it.

 

The irony here is that I was also being ironic, because the kids at the Water Gardens *are* butt naked and *do* wrestle around in the fountains all day.  I also do not take it seriously. 
 

We are the Ironyborn. 
 

[Nagini's Neville]

15 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

The irony here is that I was also being ironic, because the kids at the Water Gardens *are* butt naked and *do* wrestle around in the fountains all day.  I also do not take it seriously. 
 

We are the Ironyborn. 
 

Ironyborn Lol

They are butt naked? Well, then....