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Rose of Red Lake

Did GRRM really say Meereen would end like Iraq?

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7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

This is GRRM's fictional universe. None of the characters are real outside of his head.

If he wants to say that the people of Essos feared Dany due to the weapons she had then I'm okay with that. 

I'm more likely to take his word on this than yours or Lord Varys. Sorry about that.

I'm inclined to read the text of the books, and form my views based upon what  the text says.

The text says that Meereen was placed under siege, by forces that far outnumbered those of Daenerys, disbelieve it as you may do.

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16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'm inclined to read the text of the books, and form my views based upon what  the text says.

The text says that Meereen was placed under siege, by forces that far outnumbered those of Daenerys, disbelieve it as you may do.

Neither Dany nor Drogon are there. So yeah, they would be outnumbered because the WMD with a human rider is missing, and the other two are just wild dragons hiding in the pyramids. But earlier you said the slavers were getting kerb stomped by Barristan’s forces. It just seems like the arguments shift on a daily basis, depending on the weather.

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45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's pretty telling that the slaves  turned against the Masters at Astapor and Meereen.  If they actually liked being slaves, they'd fight for their Masters, and kill Daenerys.  Instead, they fight for Daenerys and kill their Masters, because they prefer to be free.

Well, I guess we can blame Dany for the Ghiscari slavery, too. She is an evil and incest-born Valyrian, thus responsible for the Ghiscari Wars which the Ghiscari lost. She is also a Dothraki khaleesi, meaning she has intimate connections to the people who provide the Ghiscari with most of their slaves. Which means she is resposible for the entire slavery system on two levels.

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

This is GRRM's fictional universe. None of the characters are real outside of his head.

If he wants to say that the people of Essos feared Dany due to the weapons she had then I'm okay with that. 

I'm more likely to take his word on this than yours or Lord Varys. Sorry about that.

An author colloquially reinterpreting his work isn't worth much. If George said something that makes no sense when you look at his actual works then he is just not making sense. If you bought that you would treat him as some kind of religious icon who is right by default, regardless what he says.

And he never says in-universe that the Ghiscari fear Dany because of her dragons. In fact, they do not fear her at all. They just hate her. That's why they conspired to destroy and kill her. If they feared her they may not have dared to plot against her. They have a bad collective memory of dragons, but the Astapori coveted dragons which is why they made their deal with Dany, only one Yunkai'i ever saw a dragon and he wasn't cowed by that, and the Meereenese also never saw the dragons before Dany took the city. And afterwards Dany herself freed her of the fears of the dragons by driving one away and imprisoning the others.

The fact is that neither Dany's troops are foreign invaders but rebelling slaves and sellswords the Ghiscari themselves brought into their lands. The fact is also that Dany's dragons played literally no role in her winning a victory in Slaver's Bay. Not at Astapor, not at Yunkai, not at Meereen. The dragons killed one guy at Astapor as far as I recall, and they burned the tokar of an emissary. That's it.

Pretending Dany is militarily superior to the Ghiscari is like saying Stannis having 20,000 men at the Blackwater means he is militarily superior to Joffrey just because Tyrion cannot stand against him. He does have other resources and they eventually show up and crush Stannis. Just like the Ghiscari and their allies unite their assets and immediately outnumber Daenerys - to the point that she cannot even leave Meereen with her army as early as early ADwD since she would then risk losing the city - thus 'strong' is her grap on the city.

And that's all due to her being to soft. Meereen could have been hers completely if she had simply killed all the (rich) slavers. It would have been that easy. Giving the vast wealth of the Great Masters to the common free Meereenese in exchange for their loyalty could also helped her to make her immensely popular among the surviving Meereenese.

Instead she gave in and did not finish the job.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Neither Dany nor Drogon are there. So yeah, they would be outnumbered because the WMD with a human rider is missing, and the other two are just wild dragons hiding in the pyramids. But earlier you said the slavers were getting kerb stomped by Barristan’s forces. It just seems like the arguments shift on a daily basis, depending on the weather.

I said Barristan, Victarion, and Tatters, all taking them by surprise.    

And, you think Dany on Drogon alone, whose wings are ten feet long, could somehow defeat 50 - 60,000 soldiers?  Get real.

Edited by SeanF

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Neither Dany nor Drogon are there. So yeah, they would be outnumbered because the WMD with a human rider is missing, and the other two are just wild dragons hiding in the pyramids. But earlier you said the slavers were getting kerb stomped by Barristan’s forces. It just seems like the arguments shift on a daily basis, depending on the weather.

Because the slavers are bumbling fools and various factions who are not in contact with Daenerys start to change the political landscape in her favor. Selmy follows a more aggressive policy than Dany ever allowed while she was still in Meereen. Tyrion takes steps to ensure that the Second Sons defect back to Meereen. The Tattered Prince has his own plans for defection ... and then come the Ironborn.

But they still have to fight. And the legions of New Ghis are competent soldiers. As are the sellswords of the Company of the Cat.

But the Yunkish allies in total still outnumber Dany greatly - Volantis and Qarth and all the cities in Slaver's Bay stand against her. That is an overwhelming advantage in numbers, and the only loyal/professional soldiers Dany has at this point are still only the Unsullied. The sellswords are professional but fickle. If the Volantenes decided to stay loyal to Dany the freedmen would all be enslaved again, and the sellswords would be stumbling over themselves in their desire to defect back to the slaver side.

Whatever forces Barristan is training right now are neglible, as are the companies of freedmen (although they might fight with unheard of zeal and determination, knowing that they are fighting for their very lives and freedoms).

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On 1/2/2020 at 10:18 PM, Dothraki Khal said:

Slaver's Bay is like the Civil War.  Daenerys Targaryen and her forces are the Union.  The Ghiscari are the southerners.  She is also Moses delivering the slaves from bondage in ancient Egypt.  

The symbolisms with the Exodus are all there.  The three pyramids and a moral figure who wants to free the slaves and stop the masters who stubbornly refuse to let the slaves go.  A comparison with the allies' invasion of Europe to stop the Nazis from gassing the jews would also be appropriate.  

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20 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

I don't see any parallel between the two conflicts.  The Americans went into Iraq because they feared Saddam had WMD's.  Iraq was never about slavery.  GRRM would surely know this.

There are no parallels except in the vain attempts of the OP to invent a bridge between the two.  :D  Iraq was a war of politics between Bush and Hussein.  Bush wanted to finish off his father's enemy.  There was already bad blood between the two.  In fact, the conflict between Bush and Hussein would more likely be closer to that between Slynt and Snow.  

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9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Barristan's forces, the Ironborn, and the defecting sellswords, all taking them by surprise.    

And, you think Dany on Drogon alone, whose wings are ten feet long, could somehow defeat 50 - 60,000 soldiers?  Get real.

I guess Dany is a damsel in distress beset with enemies, outnumbered on all sides, and her dragons will be easily defeated so she can stay forever the underdog.

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I guess Dany is a damsel in distress beset with enemies, outnumbered on all sides, and her dragons will be easily defeated so she can stay forever the underdog.

You're allowing your blind hate for a fictional character to make you see things that are not in the text.

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35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead she gave in and did not finish the job.

And that job is to become a genocidal tyrant who can’t hold back when non-slavers reject her also. Yay.

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

An author colloquially reinterpreting his work isn't worth much. If George said something that makes no sense when you look at his actual works then he is just not making sense. 

He’s also said Dany is the most powerful person in the world because she has dragons. Look at this crank, going around talking nonsense out of his ass. Call an interpreter! Whatever does it mean?!

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And that job is to become a genocidal tyrant who can’t hold back when non-slavers reject her also. Yay.

I'm going to believe that when George R. R. Martin is writing it, not when you are saying it. But unlike you I'm not trying to paint a character as cruel or mad or evil when she isn't, nor do I twist positive things she does into evil things. You can do that when you know the ending of the series as per George, not when all you have are basically your own wishful-thinking.

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He’s also said Dany is the most powerful person in the world because she has dragons. Look at this crank, going around talking nonsense out of his ass. Call an interpreter! Whatever does it mean?!

That is indeed nonsense, too. Dany's dragons are jokes, and so is she at this point. And she was even more of a joke as a political power throughout AGoT and ACoK - the Unsullied made her a little bit stronger, but she is still far from being 'the most powerful person in the world'. That's just nonsense. All the great lords in Westeros are more powerful than she is, the rulers of the Free Cities are, the princes of Yi Ti are, the more powerful Dothraki khals are, etc.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

You're allowing your blind hate for a fictional character to make you see things that are not in the text.

Being critical of the text and doubtful of Dany’s role in the story isn’t really hate, but I know people are sensitive to even the softest criticism of Dany, like saying her WMDs are powerful enough to defeat the slavers. Blind is an interesting word choice since I think you’re ignoring the signs that Dany is not a straightforward heroic fantasy heroine. You want her to genocide one group cleanly and ethically, never crossing a moral line that offends or be seen as a threat to anyone but the bad guys, but not so powerful that she gets called a superpower. It’s just so quaint. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Being critical of the text and doubtful of Dany’s role in the story isn’t really hate, but I know people are sensitive to even the softest criticism of Dany, like saying her WMDs are powerful enough to defeat the slavers. Blind is an interesting word choice since I think you’re ignoring the signs that Dany is not a straightforward heroic fantasy heroine. You want her to genocide one group cleanly and ethically, never crossing a moral line that offends or be seen as a threat to anyone but the bad guys. It’s just so quaint. 

There's no such thing as a "straightforward heroic fantasy heroine".  She's a sympathetic character with faults, just like Jon Snow, Sansa, Arya and the rest.

I make no apology for siding with her and the freed slaves over the Ghiscari Masters.  Your sympathies are clearly with the latter.  

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28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There's no such thing as a "straightforward heroic fantasy heroine".  She's a sympathetic character with faults, just like Jon Snow, Sansa, Arya and the rest.

I make no apology for siding with her and the freed slaves over the Ghiscari Masters.  Your sympathies are clearly with the latter.  

I think Dany is developing into something far more sinister than Arya or Sansa or Jon, a very dark shade of grey who is a major threat to the world. I think both Dany and the Masters are mass murdering assholes, like GWB and Sadam, like Cortez and Montezuma. My sympathies are with readers who are getting hoodwinked.

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47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm going to believe that when George R. R. Martin is writing it, not when you are saying it. But unlike you I'm not trying to paint a character as cruel or mad or evil when she isn't, nor do I twist positive things she does into evil things. You can do that when you know the ending of the series as per George, not when all you have are basically your own wishful-thinking.

That is indeed nonsense, too. Dany's dragons are jokes, and so is she at this point. And she was even more of a joke as a political power throughout AGoT and ACoK - the Unsullied made her a little bit stronger, but she is still far from being 'the most powerful person in the world'. That's just nonsense. All the great lords in Westeros are more powerful than she is, the rulers of the Free Cities are, the princes of Yi Ti are, the more powerful Dothraki khals are, etc.

I think there will be a time when she becomes the most powerful person in the world, but we're certainly not yet at that point of the story.

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Dany is developing into something far more sinister than Arya or Sansa or Jon, a very dark shade of grey who is a major threat to the world. I think both Dany and the Masters are mass murdering assholes, like GWB and Sadam, like Cortez and Montezuma. My sympathies are with readers who are getting hoodwinked.

No doubt you'd view Abraham Lincoln as a "mass murdering asshole" too, for trying to get rid of the South's Peculiar Institution.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I guess we can blame Dany for the Ghiscari slavery, too. She is an evil and incest-born Valyrian, thus responsible for the Ghiscari Wars which the Ghiscari lost. She is also a Dothraki khaleesi, meaning she has intimate connections to the people who provide the Ghiscari with most of their slaves. Which means she is resposible for the entire slavery system on two levels.

An author colloquially reinterpreting his work isn't worth much. If George said something that makes no sense when you look at his actual works then he is just not making sense. If you bought that you would treat him as some kind of religious icon who is right by default, regardless what he says.

And he never says in-universe that the Ghiscari fear Dany because of her dragons. In fact, they do not fear her at all. They just hate her. That's why they conspired to destroy and kill her. If they feared her they may not have dared to plot against her. They have a bad collective memory of dragons, but the Astapori coveted dragons which is why they made their deal with Dany, only one Yunkai'i ever saw a dragon and he wasn't cowed by that, and the Meereenese also never saw the dragons before Dany took the city. And afterwards Dany herself freed her of the fears of the dragons by driving one away and imprisoning the others.

The fact is that neither Dany's troops are foreign invaders but rebelling slaves and sellswords the Ghiscari themselves brought into their lands. The fact is also that Dany's dragons played literally no role in her winning a victory in Slaver's Bay. Not at Astapor, not at Yunkai, not at Meereen. The dragons killed one guy at Astapor as far as I recall, and they burned the tokar of an emissary. That's it.

Pretending Dany is militarily superior to the Ghiscari is like saying Stannis having 20,000 men at the Blackwater means he is militarily superior to Joffrey just because Tyrion cannot stand against him. He does have other resources and they eventually show up and crush Stannis. Just like the Ghiscari and their allies unite their assets and immediately outnumber Daenerys - to the point that she cannot even leave Meereen with her army as early as early ADwD since she would then risk losing the city - thus 'strong' is her grap on the city.

And that's all due to her being to soft. Meereen could have been hers completely if she had simply killed all the (rich) slavers. It would have been that easy. Giving the vast wealth of the Great Masters to the common free Meereenese in exchange for their loyalty could also helped her to make her immensely popular among the surviving Meereenese.

Instead she gave in and did not finish the job.

 

How are you disagreeing with the author here?

If Dany did not have those Dragons, if she was not given those eggs by Illyrio do you, in your opinion, think she would have conquered Meereen and Astapor?

 

The people of Essos know what Dragons can do, they know she has Dragons. She is seen as a threat because of her Dragons. Stories from Slaver's Bay have reached Westeros because of her Dragons.

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On 1/3/2020 at 4:04 AM, Dothraki Khal said:

You could say the North didn't understand Southern culture when they fought to stop slavery.

Isn't that the core of the Lost Cause??

The parallales between the contexts are stricking.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SeanF said:

No doubt you'd view Abraham Lincoln as a "mass murdering asshole" too, for trying to get rid of the South's Peculiar Institution.

If Lincoln persued conquests that had nothing to do with slavery, if he was learning how to efficiently kill masters and non-masters alike as he slowly became even more certain and self righteous that mass murder was the only way to solve problems, if he allowed people to sell themselves back into slavery, and if he took an army of slaves to conquer another continent in his name, then sure I’d say he’s a mass murdering asshole just like the people he was fighting against. But Lincoln was a statesman trying to hold the country together and Daenerys is a conqueror trying to find the quickest way to clean up Meereen so she can move on to the next conquest. All of might explain why GRRM said he wouldn’t name his hypothetical kid Daenerys. Again my sympathies lie with the people who did.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Lincoln persued conquests that had nothing to do with slavery, if he was learning how to efficiently kill masters and non-masters alike as he slowly became even more certain and self righteous that mass murder was the only way to solve problems, if he allowed people to sell themselves back into slavery, and if he took an army of slaves to conquer another continent in his name, then sure I’d say he’s a mass murdering asshole just like the people he was fighting against. But Lincoln was a statesman trying to hold the country together and Daenerys is a conqueror trying to find the quickest way to clean up Meereen so she can move on to the next conquest. All of might explain why GRRM said he wouldn’t name his hypothetical kid Daenerys. Again my sympathies lie with the people who did.

As per usual, you're making stuff up about Daenerys that is not actually mentioned in the text.  It's your wishful thinking.

As Lord Varys put it "I'll believe it when George Martin is writing it, not when you're saying it."

Edited by SeanF

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