Best Targaryen Kings

[Lord Varys]

@frenin

None of those quotes you gave confirmed that half of the Realm wanted Aerys I and Bloodraven gone. They just prove that a couple of people believed Bloodraven and Aerys I weren't all that popular - and nobody ever doubted that. You don't have a case.

Launching a rebellion to gather support is a joke, too. Whitewalls was in the center of the Riverlands, meaning Daemon II and his band of morons would have brought war and destruction to a region living in peace right now. This would not make them popular, it would make them unpopular.

If the Tullys and the Brackens and Mootons and the Darrys and the Lothstons and the Mallisters and the Vances, etc. (i.e. the great houses of the Riverlands) had been with Butterwell and Frey then they may have had a shot because it would have meant the majority of the Riverlanders wanted war with the Iron Throne. As things stand even people theoretically sympathetic to the Blackfyre cause would have turned against them ... because Daemon II would have brought the war to their own homes - without properly bringing them into the plot or preparing them for the rebellion (if they had been included they would have been at Whitewalls).

George never said that the Blackfyres were 'a serious threat'. He just has various characters say that they were threats in comparison to, say, Robert. Which says pretty much nothing. And of course I compare Westerosi wars to others when judging the length and brutality of wars. Anything else would make no sense.

It is convenient for you, since you changed from Daemon II being loved to Daemon I.

TMK makes it very clear that Peake's assessment of the political situation was wrong. The man had as good a picture of the situation as you have. That is why his plan failed so spectacularly.

How do you measure Bloodraven/Aerys I's charisma against that of Daemon II? We have seen Bloodraven only for two minutes, and Aerys I not at all. Daemon II couldn't inspire any of his own men aside from his lover and Gormy. Butterwell, Heddle, Frey, etc. all had doubts.

Dunk wasn't there during the Blackfyre Rebellion. His assessment of the Realm being split is not (necessarily) factually correct. He doesn't have statistics on the whole thing. But, sure, Daemon I did have an impressive following and may even have marshalled as many men as the Targaryens on the Redgrass Field, perhaps even more. But we don't even have a reason to believe that all Seven Kingdoms committed men to either side - in fact, I'd be very surprised if the North cared which dragon won/kept the Iron Throne.

LOL, the fact that Bittersteel himself did not accompany Daemon II and refused to give him Blackfyre (which should have been Daemon's from the day his father and elder brothers died) shows that Bittersteel didn't think Westeros wanted him to return at that time - or that Daemon II could win the Iron Throne even with Bittersteel's help. If he thought Daemon II had a chance Bittersteel would have been at his side.

And by the way - Bloodraven didn't execute septons as far as we know. The authorities in Stoney Sept did. Loyal Targaryen men, one expects. Bloodraven doesn't authorize executions in the Riverlands.

And again - nobody doubts that the Blackfyres had a coterie of stupid followers. Just that they were all that many.

LOL, no. Plumm says that quite a few lords like their king handsome and stupid - not that this handsome and stupid guy has a realistic shot at becoming king.

No, I made the example and I made it so that it exactly conveys what I want to convey.

 

[frenin]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

None of those quotes you gave confirmed that half of the Realm wanted Aerys I and Bloodraven gone. They just prove that a couple of people believed Bloodraven and Aerys I weren't all that popular - and nobody ever doubted that. You don't have a case.

 

So, you based in ad ignorantiam are going to statethat everyone was in line, with no quote whatsoever, in fact  we're told that many believed them responsible of all the shit that were going on but i suspect that your argument based in absence of evidence is better.

 

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 Launching a rebellion to gather support is a joke, too. Whitewalls was in the center of the Riverlands, meaning Daemon II and his band of morons would have brought war and destruction to a region living in peace right now. This would not make them popular, it would make them unpopular.

 

Really?? A rebellion against and unpopular King and hated Hand during a time of crisis is always going to be well received.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 If the Tullys and the Brackens and Mootons and the Darrys and the Lothstons and the Mallisters and the Vances, etc. (i.e. the great houses of the Riverlands) had been with Butterwell and Frey then they may have had a shot because it would have meant the majority of the Riverlanders wanted war with the Iron Throne. As things stand even people theoretically sympathetic to the Blackfyre cause would have turned against them ... because Daemon II would have brought the war to their own homes - without properly bringing them into the plot or preparing them for the rebellion (if they had been included they would have been at Whitewalls).

 

Or you know, joined them because they have given the step they didn't want to give, or stay put and see how things evolve before try their lucks, etc.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 George never said that the Blackfyres were 'a serious threat'. He just has various characters say that they were threats in comparison to, say, Robert. Which says pretty much nothing. And of course I compare Westerosi wars to others when judging the length and brutality of wars. Anything else would make no sense.

 

And that would be great, if the point was made to all the Blackfyre wars, it's only made for Daemon, you quite literally said that his rebellion was a joke for lasting a year, which  makes no sense because Martin more often than not make Westerosi wars last between 1 and 2 years and because we know that Daemon was close to triumph and the Robellion itself lasted a year, as i said before no one but you are talking about the brutality of the war, so you're just keep bringing your strawman. 

 

 

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 It is convenient for you, since you changed from Daemon II being loved to Daemon I.

 

I didn't and that's why i specificied later, Daemon father, they share the same name,  i thought it obvious since Daemon son could've not  time to you know, become beloved.

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 TMK makes it very clear that Peake's assessment of the political situation was wrong. The man had as good a picture of the situation as you have. That is why his plan failed so spectacularly.

 

Why?? Because Bloodraven acted before he got a chance to act?? It's very curious that Gormy's words are  just the same we keep hearing since TSS.

 

 

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 How do you measure Bloodraven/Aerys I's charisma against that of Daemon II? We have seen Bloodraven only for two minutes, and Aerys I not at all. Daemon II couldn't inspire any of his own men aside from his lover and Gormy. Butterwell, Heddle, Frey, etc. all had doubts.

 

Because we're told Bloodraven is reviled along Westeros and Aerys disliked. 

If they didn't have doubts to rebel against Bloodraven i'd be amazed.

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 Dunk wasn't there during the Blackfyre Rebellion. His assessment of the Realm being split is not (necessarily) factually correct. He doesn't have statistics on the whole thing. But, sure, Daemon I did have an impressive following and may even have marshalled as many men as the Targaryens on the Redgrass Field, perhaps even more. But we don't even have a reason to believe that all Seven Kingdoms committed men to either side - in fact, I'd be very surprised if the North cared which dragon won/kept the Iron Throne.

 

Is the only one we have and it makes quite sense sice we know Daemon was supported by Houses from Half Westeros,  Dunk it's only repeating a tale he heard, more likely from Arlan who was there, but he's the only one who tells us.

The North couldn't care much, since at the same time they were likely supressing the Skagosi rebellion.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 LOL, the fact that Bittersteel himself did not accompany Daemon II and refused to give him Blackfyre (which should have been Daemon's from the day his father and elder brothers died) shows that Bittersteel didn't think Westeros wanted him to return at that time - or that Daemon II could win the Iron Throne even with Bittersteel's help. If he thought Daemon II had a chance Bittersteel would have been at his side.

 

Or that Bittesteel disliked Daemon for being gay. Or, or.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 And by the way - Bloodraven didn't execute septons as far as we know. The authorities in Stoney Sept did. Loyal Targaryen men, one expects. Bloodraven doesn't authorize executions in the Riverlands.

 

Loyal Targ men... Ofc, how many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have??

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 No, I made the example and I made it so that it exactly conveys what I want to convey.

 

Except it doesn't and that's why you moved from "being in danger" to "being a joke". The very fact that i'm bing charged for attemtpting against you is all you need to know.

[Lord Lannister]

None of the above.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

So, you based in ad ignorantiam are going to statethat everyone was in line, with no quote whatsoever, in fact  we're told that many believed them responsible of all the shit that were going on but i suspect that your argument based in absence of evidence is better.

You claimed it was half the Realm. You failed to provide evidence for that.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Or you know, joined them because they have given the step they didn't want to give, or stay put and see how things evolve before try their lucks, etc.

No evidence for any of that - the fact of them not being at Whitewalls doesn't make it clear. Against who, do you think, the 'army' of Daemon II would have fought if they had left Whitewalls and gone to war? Against various Riverlords in the neighborhood, of course. And who do you think would have liked that? The houses whose lands and smallfolk would have been harmed by that most definitely not.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

And that would be great, if the point was made to all the Blackfyre wars, it's only made for Daemon, you quite literally said that his rebellion was a joke for lasting a year, which  makes no sense because Martin more often than not make Westerosi wars last between 1 and 2 years and because we know that Daemon was close to triumph and the Robellion itself lasted a year, as i said before no one but you are talking about the brutality of the war, so you're just keep bringing your strawman.

Most wars lasting a year are definitely in part a joke because of that. A year means there cannot have been all that much fighting and, more importantly, no lasting destruction of farms, fields, and countryside.

Even the Dance isn't a particularly destructive war. Half of Westeros or war didn't even see a battle, and in those regions which saw battles didn't see them at many different places.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Why?? Because Bloodraven acted before he got a chance to act?? It's very curious that Gormy's words are  just the same we keep hearing since TSS.

Again, if a threat is dealt with before it could become a threat it was no serious threat at all. But again - considering Daemon II's own incompetence and the incompetence of his followers it is quite clear he would have been crushed like a bug even if Bloodraven hadn't only learned about the Rebellion after it actually started.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Because we're told Bloodraven is reviled along Westeros and Aerys disliked. 

If they didn't have doubts to rebel against Bloodraven i'd be amazed.

We get rumors by people who aren't court insiders or even court regulars. Bloodraven is certainly feared and not well-liked but he is not hated by a majority. He is more or less a second Tywin, perhaps a tidbit less respected because he is physically an albino, but the fact that people fear is going to give them a lot of pause before they decide to oppose him.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Is the only one we have and it makes quite sense sice we know Daemon was supported by Houses from Half Westeros,  Dunk it's only repeating a tale he heard, more likely from Arlan who was there, but he's the only one who tells us.

The North couldn't care much, since at the same time they were likely supressing the Skagosi rebellion.

This is just talk about many people deciding to choose between the Black and the Red Dragon, not something that confirms the Realm as such was split. That by default would mean that entire regions declared for one or the other - and no great house declared for Daemon I, nor any secondary house of note.

At this point it looks as of tertiary houses and younger sons supported Daemon Blackfyre, not actual lords.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Or that Bittesteel disliked Daemon for being gay. Or, or.

If he was truly motivated by such things he would have been even a shittier guy than he already was. Daemon II would have been his king, sexual preferences or not. And if he abandoned him while thinking he may have a chance to win (with his help) then he actually betrayed House Blackfyre.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Loyal Targ men... Ofc, how many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have??

LOL, lords to execute people, not some agents and informers.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Except it doesn't and that's why you moved from "being in danger" to "being a joke". The very fact that i'm bing charged for attemtpting against you is all you need to know.

LOL, no, taking with you is pointless.

[frenin]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You claimed it was half the Realm. You failed to provide evidence for that.

Or you don't want to see it,  we're told that people disliked Bloodraven and  blamed him for practically everything, we're told that Bloodraven turned Westeros into a policial state and  people did not like that, being the phrase "a thousand eyes and  one" fairly common, we're told that people feared their neighbour to be an spy, we're told that treasnous speeches were common and  everyone who talks about them in Dunk's time is to shit on them.

You can take all that and  decide that's just the talk of 4 people.

 

 

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No evidence for any of that - the fact of them not being at Whitewalls doesn't make it clear. Against who, do you think, the 'army' of Daemon II would have fought if they had left Whitewalls and gone to war? Against various Riverlords in the neighborhood, of course. And who do you think would have liked that? The houses whose lands and smallfolk would have been harmed by that most definitely not.

I thought we were talking about a hypothetic scenario, Daemon would've fought against those he had a reason to distrust and  try to away those he had a reason to believe he had a chance winning over and  mind you, better a Westerosi army than Dothraki or Sellswords. Maybe he's ignored, maybe he's not. But the timing was the best chances of succes the Blackfyres would ever had.

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Most wars lasting a year are definitely in part a joke because of that. A year means there cannot have been all that much fighting and, more importantly, no lasting destruction of farms, fields, and countryside.

Even the Dance isn't a particularly destructive war. Half of Westeros or war didn't even see a battle, and in those regions which saw battles didn't see them at many different places.

I don't know why you keep arguing over this, it's been already clear that, we're not talking about how destructive a war was, we're not talking about your opinion  of what a joke war is, but the books.

Whether you consider  those wars a joke or not is simply irrelevant. They simply weren't.

 

 

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, if a threat is dealt with before it could become a threat it was no serious threat at all. But again - considering Daemon II's own incompetence and the incompetence of his followers it is quite clear he would have been crushed like a bug even if Bloodraven hadn't only learned about the Rebellion after it actually started.

Again, it had the potential  of becoming a serious problem. Would he?? I don't really know,.

 

 

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We get rumors by people who aren't court insiders or even court regulars. Bloodraven is certainly feared and not well-liked but he is not hated by a majority. He is more or less a second Tywin, perhaps a tidbit less respected because he is physically an albino, but the fact that people fear is going to give them a lot of pause before they decide to oppose him.

Don't know, we are telling the same in both Twoiaf and  Dunk books, if we hear rumours about court, the center of Bloodraven's gestapo do you even think we're getting reliable info?? All we hear is Bloodraven sucks but, by absence of evidence, we're  to believe otherwise...

 

 

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is just talk about many people deciding to choose between the Black and the Red Dragon, not something that confirms the Realm as such was split. That by default would mean that entire regions declared for one or the other - and no great house declared for Daemon I, nor any secondary house of note.

At this point it looks as of tertiary houses and younger sons supported Daemon Blackfyre, not actual lords.

We know that the Hightowers, the Yronwoods, the Brackens and  the Tarbecks, the Oakhearts,the Reynes all gave Daemon their support, we know that the Realm was split.  In fact one of the reasons why any Great Lord supported Daemon was because the amount of "secondary Houses of note" supporting Daemon, it seems that the Blacks seeked a change of the status  quo.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If he was truly motivated by such things he would have been even a shittier guy than he already was. Daemon II would have been his king, sexual preferences or not. And if he abandoned him while thinking he may have a chance to win (with his help) then he actually betrayed House Blackfyre.

Don't know, what you want to hear here.

 

 

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, lords to execute people, not some agents and informers.

Ofc ofc, the policial state had nothing to do with it right?? That's why after they found him dead, we keep heading,the rhyme.

 

 

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no, taking with you is pointless.

I mean, do you know that attempt murder is a crimen right?? But you're right, this is pointless.

 

 

[Lee-Sensei]

On 1/1/2020 at 9:08 PM, Tomless said:

Out of curiosity, how would your ranking of the seventeen Targaryen Kings look? For me, it would go: 

Jaehaerys I

Daeron II

Aegon V

Viserys II

Viserys I

Aegon I

Aegon III

Daeron I

Maekar I

Jaehaerys II

Aenys I

Aegon II/Rhaenyra 

Aerys I

Baelor I

Maegor I

Aerys II

Aegon IV

Good

1) Jaeherys I

2) Daeron II

3) Aegon V

4) Viserys II

5) Maekar I

6)Viserys II

Average

7) Jaeherys II

8) Aegon III

9) Aegon I

10) Aenys I

11) Aerys II

Bad

12) Daeron I

13) Baelor I

14) Maegor I

15) Aegon II/Rhaenyra I

16) Aerys II

17) Aegon V

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Good

1.  Jaehaerys I 
2. Aegon I
3. Daeron II
4. Viserys II
5. Maekar I

Average

1. Aegon V
2. Baelor I
3. Aegon III
4. Aerys I
5. Viserys I
6. Jaehaerys II

Bad

1. Aerys II
2. Daeron I
3. Rhaenyra I
4. Aegon II
5. Aenys I
6. Aegon IV
7. Maegor I

[butterweedstrover]

I'm only going to rank the kings from Aegon the conqueror to Aegon the unlucky.  

1. Jaehaerys the conciliator  

2. Aegon the unlucky

3. Aegon the conqueror 

4. Maegor the cruel 

5. Viserys I 

6. Aenys 

7. Aegon II 

Side note: had he become king Baelor breakspear would have been the best.

[ShimShim]

Aegon IV the fun loving. Sounded like the kind of guy you would want to party with. Not to mention him just giving out dragon eggs. What a swell guy.

[butterweedstrover]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:45 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Good

1) Jaeherys I

2) Daeron II

3) Aegon V

4) Viserys II

5) Maekar I

6)Viserys II

Average

7) Jaeherys II

8) Aegon III

9) Aegon I

10) Aenys I

11) Aerys II

Bad

12) Daeron I

13) Baelor I

14) Maegor I

15) Aegon II/Rhaenyra I

16) Aerys II

17) Aegon V

You put Viserys the second twice. 

Also in what world would the first Viserys be good (if that was what you meant)? 

His weakness and poor decisions brought about the dance of dragons. 

[Lee-Sensei]

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

You put Viserys the second twice. 

Also in what world would the first Viserys be good (if that was what you meant)? 

His weakness and poor decisions brought about the dance of dragons. 

Ah. Sorry. I meant for Viserys II to be the higher one. Viserys the Firsts reign was mostly peaceful (I’m generally a non-interventionist, so this is a big point in his favor for me) and he ruled for over 25 years over a prosperous Kingdom at the height of Targaryen power. His succession was a bloodbath, but he did make it clear who he wanted to follow him. Still, he does bare some responsibility for how things turned out. That’s why I placed him last.

[GoldenGail3]

1. Aegon I

2. Jahaerys I

3. Daeron II

4. Viserys II

5. Maekor I

 

Okay Kings

1. Aegon V

2. Jaeherys II

3. Aerys I

4. Aegon III

5. Baelor I

6. Daeron I

 

Bad Kings
1. Viserys I

2. Aegon II/Rhaenyra 

3. Aerys II

4. Maegor I

5. Aegon VI

6. Aenys I

 

[TheLastWolf]

Nobody. Monarchy sucks

[Tyrion1991]

Thats like asking for a selection of the best turd. Fire and Blood is an entire novel dedicated to how disastrous the Targaryens were. The whole backstory is beating you repeatedly over the head with this. George is not a subtle man. He is telling you that Dany is in the wrong to want the Targaryens back and should step aside for the pure and virtuous Starks.

Compare this to the Starks who have never had an insane King. Never had a weak King. Are beloved by the common people and their Lords who struggle to imagine anyone else ever ruling them. The exception proving the rule. Which they have done for thousands of years without any of the corruption of wealth and power.   These are humble men with strong and pure blood of ancient lineage. Could you imagine a Stark version of Baelor the Blessed or a Stark version of the Mad King or Aegon the Unworthy. George has framed the Stark family in such a positive light that you can’t. We’ve been told they are the real deal.

The insinuation is that the Starks are better than the Targaryens. George is never going to outright say this; but that’s where this is going. The fact Dany has a handful of kind of okay ancestors whilst the Starks have an arsenal of Warrior Kings who all went to Valhalla speaks volumes.

[The Commentator]

Targaryen rule was the best thing to ever happen to Westeros.  They had a few bad apples in Aegon II, IV, and Aerys II.  But that is not bad considering they were in power for 300 years. The U S is not as old and we’ve had more presidents who were not good.  

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Targaryen rule was the best thing to ever happen to Westeros.  They had a few bad apples in Aegon II, IV, and Aerys II.  But that is not bad considering they were in power for 300 years. The U S is not as old and we’ve had more presidents who were not good.  

bloodraven was a benevolent ruler. 

[Shierak Qiya]

Bloodraven was only a Hand.  He ruled the Wall, true.  That's different from ruling a kingdom.  As the Hand he was harsh when he needed to be.  Forgiving too.  He forgave Walder's dad. 

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, Shierak Qiya said:

Bloodraven was only a Hand.  He ruled the Wall, true.  That's different from ruling a kingdom.  As the Hand he was harsh when he needed to be.  Forgiving too.  He forgave Walder's dad. 

I think Aerys I and Bloodraven was kind of a Bush/Cheney situation. 

We know who the real ruler was. 

[TheLastWolf]

12 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

But that is not bad considering they were in power for 300 years. The U S is not as old and we’ve had more presidents who were not good

This is fantasy, mate. Dynasties that last 8000-10000 years?!?! No way in real life. No civilization lasts that long. And that too with nil scientific advancement. Targs are even more fantastic. Centuries of incest gives you purple anime eyes and blonde silvery gold hair. 

[Loose Bolt]

13 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

bloodraven was a benevolent ruler. 

When I read The Mystery Knight I thought that Bloodraven was running some kind of police state. Or there were spies anywhere and people who disagreed with the government literally lost their heads or found themselves hanging in cages. So Dunk had very good reasons to be paranoid.

Another thing is that Ironborn seemed to have free hands to do whatever they wanted bc BR kept all available warships at the Narrow Sea. Or it seemed he considered Blackfyres so great threat that he neglected safety of western kingdoms and so North, Reach and Westerlands did get very little support from Iron Throne.