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Nagini's Neville

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12 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don't think she needs to go back to that boring old white knight blah hero stuff. 

I think it's still useful, she just inspires it in others, as you described. 

6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

She's definitely on her way. But I don't think she'd be so bitter about the songs not being true if she wasn't still hanging onto them to some degree. I just think she has a bit further to go yet here. 

I really don't want LF to be right about the songs. Songs are basically stories, they shouldn't be abandoned altogether. They just need to be approached more critically. I can't imagine GRRM would punish Sansa for enjoying something he enjoys himself. He has to be very careful writing Sansa or he'll end up being too nihilistic. 

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6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

She is though I do see a progression where it lessens over time. Even if she holds onto the songs, HEAs, ideal white knight hero just a bit, it'll only make dealing with what's coming more difficult to reconcile :crying:

Yeah, I don't think she will. Think that's just me lol.

She had to compromise to much already. She was happy about marring Willas, who was far from her imagination of a knight hero, compromised about, that he probably wouldn't love her and she thought even if he" just marries me for my claim, maybe I can make him love me". Now she is a bastard, doesn't want to marry anymore, but still has to/ tries to, since it is the reasonable thing to. And there was no mention of songs anymore as far as I recall, only that she didn't want to hear them, when Marillion was singing.

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think it's still useful, she just inspires it in others, as you described. 

I really don't want LF to be right about the songs. Songs are basically stories, they shouldn't be abandoned altogether. They just need to be approached more critically. I can't imagine GRRM would punish Sansa for enjoying something he enjoys himself. He has to be very careful writing Sansa or he'll end up being too nihilistic. 

I think we have very different tastes!

GRRM punishes his characters all the time. I suspect sometimes just for giggles. Also, the books aren't being written from the perspective of any one character. It's an ensemble cast. Does Ned's end make all of ASOIAF nihilistic? Robb's? Catelyn's? Nope. 

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Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, I don't think she will. Think that's just me lol.

She had to compromise to much already. She was happy about marring Willas, who was far from her imagination of a knight hero, compromised about, that he probably wouldn't love her and she thought even if he" just marries me for my claim, maybe I can make him love me". Now she is a bastard, doesn't want to marry anymore, but still has to/ tries to, since it is the reasonable thing to. And there was no mention of songs anymore as far as I recall, only that she didn't want to hear them, when Marillion was singing.

I forgot about Marillion's songs. Not wanting to hear the songs is what makes me think she's still holding onto them. They still have an effect on her.

I guess this is where I differ from a lot of Sansa fans in that I don't see her or any character's happiness as relevant to the story that's being written though I definitely sympathize with wanting good things for a favorite character. In an ice zombie apocalypse, Euron, Dany's and her dragons (she won't make a subtle entrance!) and all of the wars to come, marriage will be the least of anyone's problems. A happy ending would be living without losing absolutely everything and everyone you care about. The Light coming back is the happy ending. We've been told that from the very start.  

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9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I think we have very different tastes!

GRRM punishes his characters all the time. I suspect sometimes just for giggles. Also, the books aren't being written from the perspective of any one character. It's an ensemble cast. Does Ned's end make all of ASOIAF nihilistic? Robb's? Catelyn's? Nope. 

I just hope he's not going to completely gut her love of stories and songs, since these aren't harmful by themselves and can serve a useful function like Renly's peach - "stop and smell the roses and take joy out of life." There's a limit to punishing characters - if the story ended with Sansa marrying Ramsay or Gregor most of us would be like "da fuq?" and throw the book in the trash. He took offense to critics calling his work bleak and nihilistic. He called it a moronic point of view. To me (and I know everyone is reading for different reasons) it depends on Sansa's and Arya's outlook IN SPITE of the awful things they experienced. Does Sansa turn bitter and sociopathic like Cersei, does Arya turn into the Hound or Stoneheart? That would be nihilistic to me. 

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3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I forgot about Marillion's songs. Not wanting to hear the songs is what makes me think she's still holding onto them. They still have an effect on her.

I guess this is where I differ from a lot of Sansa fans in that I don't see her or any character's happiness as relevant to the story that's being written though I definitely sympathize with wanting good things for a favorite character. In an ice zombie apocalypse, Euron, Dany's and her dragons (she won't make a subtle entrance!) and all of the wars to come, marriage will be the least of anyone's problems. A happy ending would be living without losing absolutely everything and everyone you care about. The Light coming back is the happy ending. We've been told that from the very start.  

No, no I totally agree with that. 

I just meant, that I think Sansa has already given up on the idea of a traditional hero. Otherwise she would be more excited about HH and wouldn't think so positively of Tyrion and the Hound. But that is of course only my interpretation.

Now come to think of it IMO Sansa doesn't like Marillion's singing, because of what happened with Lysa. It's basically haunting her because of his singing, she can't escape it and it's the same for Sweetrobin.

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes, since we don't have any "childhood scenes" with them and they aren't that close. I think a lot of people are approaching it from the pov of "they actually never were siblings at heart", even when they still thought they were.

But yeah I definitely wouldn't have gotten the idea of "they actually never were siblings at heart" by reading the books. I always got the impression they thought of each other as such.

 

I agree. 

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GRRM did promise the ending would be bittersweet like Lord of the Rings and several characters in that series got a good ending. In ASOIAF the characters who are most likely to get that would be the Starks. They are the heroes and the protagonists of the story so for them to have a sweet epilogue after all that suffering makes sense. For Sansa that would mean getting to chose  who she will marry and live a life like her parents. We could argue who that person is, but I believe we as Sansa fans will be satisfied whomever she ends up with so long they fit in the "brave, gentle and strong," criteria and are good for her.

Edited by Elegant Woes

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1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

GRRM did promise the ending would be bittersweet like Lord of the Rings and several characters in that series got a good ending. In ASOIAF the characters who are most likely to get that would be the Starks. They are the heroes and the protagonists of the story so for them to have a sweet epilogue after all that suffering makes sense. For Sansa that would mean getting to chose  who she will marry and live a life like her parents. We could argue who that person is, but I believe we as Sansa fans will be satisfied whomever she ends up with so long they fit in the "brave, gentle and strong," criteria and are good for her. 

It would be choosing if she'll marry...

AFFC Alayne II

"A marriage . . ." Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. "I do not . . . I cannot marry. Father, I . . ." Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. "I am married," she whispered. "You know." 
 

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8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

A lot of Americans don't know how common the cousin thing was in rl Medieval times so it's a lot more shocking to us. In the US, cousins marrying is something that happens in very deep, dark backwoods corners of Appalachia and that's still seen more as a joke than reality.

Yeah, my American boss used to work in Tennessee and tells me there were lots of first cousin marriages there, and that he always thought it super weird.

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

There's the uncle/niece, aunt/nephew thing which pops up here and there.

I know, but I was referring specifically to siblings.

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Tyrion keeps talking about boinking Cersei.

Out of hatred and spite, or that has always been my take.

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Ygritte looks like a mashup of Arya and Sansa and Jon outright compares her to Arya which is beyond weird.

I don’t find that weird at all... Jon doesn’t really know many women or girls, having had a pretty insulated life. I think comparing someone who he’s just met to people he knows well is to be expected. 

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Lysa breast feeding her son who is way too close to puberty is warped. 

Lysa is nuts. IMO.

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

GRRM didn't have to put any of that in the books, but he did. A lot. Hence Jon/Dany, Jon/Arya and Jon/Sansa. And yeah, the show and fansite bubbles made it way worse. 

Yup.

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13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, my American boss used to work in Tennessee and tells me there were lots of first cousin marriages there, and that he always thought it super weird.

I know, but I was referring specifically to siblings.

Out of hatred and spite, or that has always been my take.

I don’t find that weird at all... Jon doesn’t really know many women or girls, having had a pretty insulated life. I think comparing someone who he’s just met to people he knows well is to be expected. 

Lysa is nuts. IMO.

Yup.

Didn't know that about Tennessee. It's illegal in West Virginia and Kentucky.

I grew up in area where it's so off-putting that people don't date people who even look like relatives because it's too weird. Jon/Arya fans have posted Jon comparing Ygritte to Arya as some sort of evidence. Think I recall GRRM being surprised that people took Ygritte looking like his sister as being weird. 

But to my point, GRRM writing about so much incest and just too close family situations of any type puts the idea into people's heads, good reasons for it or not. Past behavior as a predictor of future behavior. If GRRM didn't include it so much, people wouldn't expect him to write it in the future. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Didn't know that about Tennessee. It's illegal in West Virginia and Kentucky.

I grew up in area where it's so off-putting that people don't date people who even look like relatives because it's too weird. Jon/Arya fans have posted Jon comparing Ygritte to Arya as some sort of evidence. Think I recall GRRM being surprised that people took Ygritte looking like his sister as being weird. 

But to my point, GRRM writing about so much incest and just too close family situations of any type puts the idea into people's heads, good reasons for it or not. Past behavior as a predictor of future behavior. If GRRM didn't include it so much, people wouldn't expect him to write it in the future. 

 

I agree about GRRM in that people wouldn't think it if he didn't write about it. It is almost exclusively the Targs though. Jaime & Cersei are the exception & their "romance" is hidden & taboo. Jon & Dany make a little more sense because they are aunt & nephew, not siblings. They weren't raised as relatives. If they come together neither of them will likely know of their relation. Daenerys obviously won't take issue with it but Jon might. 

Jon/Arya or Sansa were raised as siblings, none are Targs (that they know of) & weren't raised to believe they should marry their sibling. I personally think it would do the series a great injustice to take any of the Stark kids & insert incest, particularly at this late stage in the game. 

GRRM did intend for Jon to be with Arya which honestly makes me wonder about him some. There is no reason plot wise & it would be incest just for the sake of the author liking to write about incest. Perhaps when that was the plan the story was different & it had some purpose. 

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13 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I disagree. Arranged marriage can be as bad as as forced. But most of the time isn't. And if it is just that you have time to get used to the thought now a longer time before hand, most of the time are older than 12 (if you aren't, then a good father will make sure the marriage isn't consummated, when the bride's older- Ned certainly would have) and also very important you know you are acting in the interest of your family and not unwillingly participating in their downfall. 

I think it is forced anyway, in one case it is forced by the family itself, and in the other case it is forced by the groom's family or himself, With a few exceptions from different situations, in Cersei's case, she would marry a king and a handsome man, which makes her want to marry, but if she didn't want it, it would be hard Tywin to do what she wanted, she would get married anyway, unless you're lucky enough to have a loving parent like Ned every marriage is forced. 

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13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I guess this is where I differ from a lot of Sansa fans in that I don't see her or any character's happiness as relevant to the story that's being written though I definitely sympathize with wanting good things for a favorite character. In an ice zombie apocalypse, Euron, Dany's and her dragons (she won't make a subtle entrance!) and all of the wars to come, marriage will be the least of anyone's problems. A happy ending would be living without losing absolutely everything and everyone you care about. The Light coming back is the happy ending. We've been told that from the very start.  

Yes, It will be bittersweet "happiness" because it will never be like before, without parents and Robb, maybe without Rickon too, that weekend with your family will never be even when your mother, father or brother were dead, WF would no longer be a shelter but a place that reminds of the suffering and loss of loved ones. 

 

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24 minutes ago, TedBear said:

I think it is forced anyway, in one case it is forced by the family itself, and in the other case it is forced by the groom's family or himself, With a few exceptions from different situations, in Cersei's case, she would marry a king and a handsome man, which makes her want to marry, but if she didn't want it, it would be hard Tywin to do what she wanted, she would get married anyway, unless you're lucky enough to have a loving parent like Ned every marriage is forced. 

Not everyone, think about Brienne and Arienne. There are parents, who don't force their children. It all depends on the father or brother.

And even if you are pressured or forced at least you don't help your enemies with the downfall of your family and are forever separated from your family because of it. I think Sansa wouldn't have had a problem to help Robb with his war through marriage. And any good brother and father would insist, that the marriage isn't consummated until the bride is older.

But as I said before. I don't fault Tyrion for the marriage, but that he tried to consummate it right away, even though he knew Sansa was afraid, she didn't want it, knew it would be cruel to her and that she was still a child. He took advantage of her being so dutiful. And through making himself look like a victim along side her, he manipulated her (maybe not consciously). It's almost a form of victim blaming just in reverse 

This marriage was his chance to protect her and to be good to her, to keep her save, but in the moment of her greatest desperation and fear he took advantage of her for his own gratification, when she was still so young. That just doesn't make me think he'll be the best husband in the long run- sorry. What he did that night IMO was really monumental.

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

GRRM did intend for Jon to be with Arya which honestly makes me wonder about him some.

Yeah, I recall a post on his blog about Star Wars, something like how he thinks George Lucas always intended Luke to be with Leia and believes Han was retconned. He sounded like an angsty Luke /Leia shipper. :lol:

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah, I recall a post on his blog about Star Wars, something like how he thinks George Lucas always intended Luke to be with Leia and believes Han was retconned. He sounded like an angsty Luke /Leia shipper. :lol:

I don't think George Lukas knew already in "A New Hope" that they were siblings. So it's definitely possible.

But he knew in TISB and made them kiss and Luke liking it, which is really f-ed up LOL

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16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I disagree. Arranged marriage can be as bad as as forced. But most of the time isn't. And if it is just that you have time to get used to the thought now a longer time before hand, most of the time are older than 12 (if you aren't, then a good father will make sure the marriage isn't consummated, when the bride's older- Ned certainly would have) and also very important you know you are acting in the interest of your family and not unwillingly participating in their downfall. 

How is marrying Tyrion the downfall of Stark?

15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

then why are marriage vows so special to you and must be followed no matter what? Doesn't make any sense to me. Can't remember that ever being portrayed that way

Lol idk. The sanctity of marriage and all that... Im all for getting a divorce from a toxic marriage, but I do think a couple should try to make it. NW is just dumb lol

15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

As far as I remember Cat and Robb both wanted to free sansa from Tyrion. 

I meant Cats words to be the Tully phrase. Family Duty Honor, which to me goes against getting divorced

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But he knew in TISB and made them kiss and Luke liking it, which is really f-ed up LOL

My theory is Luke knew Han loved Leia and was kinda trolling him, pretending to enjoy that kiss. 

But then in RotJ shes like "somehow Ive always known" which totally raises some red flags lol

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2 hours ago, TedBear said:

, she would get married anyway, unless you're lucky enough to have a loving parent like Ned every marriage is forced. 

Lol what? The man who continued to support Sansas engagement when she saw what a monster her fiancee was?

The one who told Arya, forget your dreams your gonna marry some random lord?

/Ned rant over... for now lol

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