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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Oh no lol I feel like it has been discussed already a lot, hasn't it?

My main problem is: He married her against her will and sexually assaulted her. There was also no connection made at all.

Tyrion really had the chance to make that happen (the connection). He was the man, the adult, the one with all the power, it was his family, that murdered hers not the other way around. he should have been patient and kind, be a friend to her and give her a lot of time, make her feel save and be interested in her as a person. It would have taken a lot a lot a lot of time and he should have known that and given it to her. Instead he molested her, when he knew all of this would be cruel to her, when he himself called her a child. He put his own "fear" and discomfort on the same level as hers, which is just blatantly the wrong thing to do. He makes it all about himself or at least not nearly enough about her as he should have given her situation. And IMO Tyrion is also just unable to love a woman/girl and unable to empathize with a woman on a deeper level.

and then there is also this:

"All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire."

“And if I never want you to, my lord?”

Also Tyrion probably has a lot of STDs.

 

But you know what, if Sansa suddenly starts to think about Tyrion constantly and falls in love with him and he seriously starts to change and gets at least back to ACOK Tyrion and treats her well ( and also he should apologize for what he did, which I don't see him doing) I'll guess I support it, why not, if it's what she wants.

I just can't see that happening. In my opinion GRRM has written zero chemistry between them. You'd think he put a little bit of foreshadowing in there, since he likes it so much :) 

 

Solely politically yeah maybe, if she and her family could get over the part, where his family murdered hers. If not I don't see Sansa siding with Tyrion over Arya and Jon.

 

 

I don't disagree with alot of what you said but I'm with Hugor, I'd show up for that thread. Who cares if it's been discussed alot? Everything has been discussed alot because we have to wait so dang long between books! Lol

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Dang it. :rofl:

You made your choice, now Mance has to stay forever out of you favorite 10s or the Old and the New Gods will punish you and R'hllor might demand you as a sacrifice. "I did not make the rules, little Lyanna."

Also how cruel of you to throw one of your current 10 favorites out again? ( might I suggest the Khal? *evil;)*)

And admit it, it's just because, you still believe Mance is Jon's father... *sigh* I believe it, too. There were to many clue in that "wall-conversation" 

Quote

I don't disagree with alot of what you said but I'm with Hugor, I'd show up for that thread. Who cares if it's been discussed alot? Everything has been discussed alot because we have to wait so dang long between books! Lol

Oh no, I feel like my faint heart is just not ready yet, after that last Sansa thread haha.

Gotta be honest that wedding night chapter is next to / or after right after Danny's early chapters one of the hardest to read for me ( the ones with Ramsay are extremely hard too of course). She just thinks and narrates so much like a child still- it's unbearable for me, that she is in this situation.

 

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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18 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You made your choice, now Mance has to stay forever out of you favorite 10s or the Old and the New Gods will punish you and R'hllor might demand you as a sacrifice. "I did not make the rules, little Lyanna."

Also how cruel of you to throw one of your current 10 favorites out again? ( might I suggest the Khal? *evil;)*)

And admit it, it's just because, you still believe Mance is Jon's father... *sigh* I believe it, too. There were to many clue in that "wall-conversation" 

Oh no, I feel like my faint heart is just not ready yet, after that last Sansa thread haha.

Gotta be honest that wedding night chapter is next to / or after right after Danny's early chapters one of the hardest to read for me ( the ones with Ramsay are extremely hard too of course). She just thinks and narrates so much like a child still- it's unbearable for me, that she is in this situation.

 

 

Haha! Yes maybe the Khal must go. 

I can't help it! I know he isn't his father but there is just something funky about the whole thing! Lol

I agree & those were the hardest chapters for me to read also. Maybe another day when we are both feeling less feint hearted :)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha! Yes maybe the Khal must go. 

I can't help it! I know he isn't his father but there is just something funky about the whole thing! Lol

I agree & those were the hardest chapters for me to read also. Maybe another day when we are both feeling less feint hearted :)

Hm, maybe I should start one. I'm just a bit afraid of all the ppl, who'll write "Sansa should have knelt for Tyrion" or something LOL

The thing is that I actually don't dislike the idea that much, if someone would have told me in ACOK, Sansa will marry Tyrion at 18 happily, I certainly would have liked it (even though I also have some issues with the Tysha story, but if he hadn't killed Shae and stayed a great and moral person I might have gotten over it)

Sansa and Tyrion certainly would have been a great power couple. Both from influential houses, Tyrion so smart and he can be loyal and kind and is certainly very funny. And under different circumstances I believe Sansa is actually everything Tyrion would want. Lets be honest, he wants someone beautiful, Sansa can also be kind and compassionate and she is also intelligent. They are both used to court life.

And of course Sansa is not attracted to Tyrion, but she is also just 12. When I was her age I also only wanted JB lol and now I don't really care about looks anymore or at least I find a lot of different looking ppl very attractive .

Maybe it could have worked, if he had just given her some time to grow up. Even for a child, who's family hadn't been just murdered, who didn't have to endure domestic violence, was a hostage and was only told earlier that same day of the marriage, this would have been a difficult situation. But she had to deal with all of that on top of it.

I actually think it could have worked, Sansa has shown, that she is quite easy to forgive ( at least towards Tyrion and the Hound) and maybe over a lot of time, if they really gotten to know each other, Sansa could have "forgiven" him for being a Lannister.

Man maybe I really should start a thread now LOL There is certainly lots to discuss

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No doubt Jorah has helped Dany a lot. What I fear is, that his creepy obsession with her might aid her downfall. Since he might keep information to himself or alter it (especially about the 7 kingdoms), that would be of vital importance to her. He might do the same to keep being important to her. You can see the signs for that already

I don't think he's obsessed, he wanted her, kissed her and said he loved her, Dany didn't like it, said she didn't want him and he didn't insist anymore. He still loves her and wants to be close to her. Not to mention the age difference factor that is very common in Westeros / Essos would be comparable to a guy who is in love with a friend and wants to be around her. 

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4 hours ago, TedBear said:

I don't think he's obsessed, he wanted her, kissed her and said he loved her, Dany didn't like it, said she didn't want him and he didn't insist anymore. He still loves her and wants to be close to her. Not to mention the age difference factor that is very common in Westeros / Essos would be comparable to a guy who is in love with a friend and wants to be around her. 

Jorah's love will mature. He will put romance out of the equation when he realizes it's about serving a person and a cause greater than himself. He will no longer seek personal fulfillment but rather take the more noble, enlightened moral path of helping Daenerys Targaryen accomplish her goals.  

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17 hours ago, The Transporter said:

I like characters who use their minds to get things done.  Smart, brave, beautiful, are qualities my number one character possess. Daenerys Targaryen.  She learned from Sun Tzu's The Art of War. I don't find the typical sword-swinger interesting although Barristan Selmy is a special case because he has other valuable experience outside of the KG.  He gave the best speech ever during the prelude to the Battle of Meereen.  Skahaz and Reznak are very intriguing on their own.  They turned their backs on a one thousand year culture in order to embrace change and help our young hero fight the slave trade.

  1. Daenerys Targaryen
  2. Varys
  3. Barristan Selmy
  4. Archmaester Marwyn
  5. Visenya Targaryen
  6. Missandei of Naath
  7. Skahaz mo Kandaq
  8. Maester Aemon Targaryen
  9. Samwell Tarly
  10. Ellaria Sand

Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal would make the top five if non-humans are included.  

 

I love those Dragons! 

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10 is too many for me to pick (so @Lyanna<3Rhaegar you can have one of my picks).

No-one has mentioned Sandor Clegane so far. He's a very interesting character, even if he's not likeable. I'm really looking forward to seeing more of him in the future books (and I think we will). There's a lot more subtlety to his character than a surface reading would imply.

I also think Tyrion is a fascinating character, but I have to admit that half the fascination for me is seeing how his character can be completely misunderstood. The creators of the abomination spring to mind. They totally overlooked how problematic Tyrion is, misreading his understandable reasons for being the way he is into making his really very bad actions justifiable and actually good; taking Tyrion's own self-justifications at face value.

I also enjoy Sansa 100% and for partly the same reason. It's easy to read her and take her completely at face value as a shallow vain brat, one who never changes thereafter. Someone once argued to me that Sansa was basically an afterthought of the author's and that her chapters aren't to be taken very seriously. But I think she's been crafted extremely carefully and subtly, perhaps to force readers to jump to conclusions which then can be challenged by the author, to cause the reader to re-think their own biases and assumptions.

I guess I generally enjoy the characters where you have to read carefully, read between the lines to some extent and think carefully during the process of reading, being always prepared to acknowledge and question your own unconscious assumptions. 

Also, Jason Momoa is totally hot. :drool:

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6 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

10 is too many for me to pick (so @Lyanna<3Rhaegar you can have one of my picks).

No-one has mentioned Sandor Clegane so far. He's a very interesting character, even if he's not likeable. I'm really looking forward to seeing more of him in the future books (and I think we will). There's a lot more subtlety to his character than a surface reading would imply.

I also think Tyrion is a fascinating character, but I have to admit that half the fascination for me is seeing how his character can be completely misunderstood. The creators of the abomination spring to mind. They totally overlooked how problematic Tyrion is, misreading his understandable reasons for being the way he is into making his really very bad actions justifiable and actually good; taking Tyrion's own self-justifications at face value.

I also enjoy Sansa 100% and for partly the same reason. It's easy to read her and take her completely at face value as a shallow vain brat, one who never changes thereafter. Someone once argued to me that Sansa was basically an afterthought of the author's and that her chapters aren't to be taken very seriously. But I think she's been crafted extremely carefully and subtly, perhaps to force readers to jump to conclusions which then can be challenged by the author, to cause the reader to re-think their own biases and assumptions.

I guess I generally enjoy the characters where you have to read carefully, read between the lines to some extent and think carefully during the process of reading, being always prepared to acknowledge and question your own unconscious assumptions. 

:agree:  :bowdown:

Oh my god I 100 % agree with all of this! You put perfectly into words what I often struggle with to articulate.

Quote

I also think Tyrion is a fascinating character, but I have to admit that half the fascination for me is seeing how his character can be completely misunderstood. The creators of the abomination spring to mind. They totally overlooked how problematic Tyrion is, misreading his understandable reasons for being the way he is into making his really very bad actions justifiable and actually good; taking Tyrion's own self-justifications at face value.

I have the same feelings and about Tyrion's development and arc. But most readers don't seem to see it, which is interesting to me, because some of the dark things, he does are not so much open for interpretation IMO, but quite clear. I can't believe how many people think he was justified in killing Shae f.e. 

Also IMO with GRRM you can give a lot of weight to names and symbolism and such things (given that you have the right interpretation of course :)). And it is curious, that Tyrion and Tywin is so similar. Kind of interesting, that Tyrion (the younger son, who also happened to be a dwarf) got a typical Lannister name, while Jaime the elder didn't. 

And then there is also this of course:

Quote

"Jaime kissed her cheek. “He left a son.” “Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth.” That was a queer remark. “Why should you fear?” “Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak … but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools."

Quote

I also enjoy Sansa 100% and for partly the same reason. It's easy to read her and take her completely at face value as a shallow vain brat, one who never changes thereafter. Someone once argued to me that Sansa was basically an afterthought of the author's and that her chapters aren't to be taken very seriously. But I think she's been crafted extremely carefully and subtly, perhaps to force readers to jump to conclusions which then can be challenged by the author, to cause the reader to re-think their own biases and assumptions.

I guess I generally enjoy the characters where you have to read carefully, read between the lines to some extent and think carefully during the process of reading, being always prepared to acknowledge and question your own unconscious assumptions.

100% agree. GRRM put for sure a lot of work into an afterthought haha. 100% agree with the words in bold.

IMO people sometimes don't pay enough attention to chapters, where there is apparently not a lot happening. In Sansa's chapters IMO every sentence is so carefully crafted and has propose and meaning and intention. Sansa isn't the kind of character, who will most of the time outright "tell" you stuff- you have to read between the lines. And it is done in an incredibly realistic way. The chapter, where she gets her period is to this day my favorite in all ASOIF, because IMO it is so realistic and therefore very moving to me.

Quote

No-one has mentioned Sandor Clegane so far. He's a very interesting character, even if he's not likeable. I'm really looking forward to seeing more of him in the future books (and I think we will). There's a lot more subtlety to his character than a surface reading would imply.

I'm sure someone will still mention him. He always seemed to be a quite popular. 

I find him interesting too, partly because IMO he is still quite mysterious. We get hints and clues, that point in certain directions, but nothing is truly confirmed.

Readers either love him or hate him. For me GRRM definitely succeeded in what he apparently set out to do in the beginning (he often described Sandor as dangerous) During my first read I was legitimately really scared of him. Didn't help that he was mostly only interacting with Sansa and Arya.

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"A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark armor seemed to blot out the sun."

This is really scary haha But I'm also-admittedly- easily scared.

Sandor is also really well and carefully crafted, a lot of symbolism there. The language, that GRRM uses to describe him is amazing. Out of all the characters IMO he is the one, that comes most "physically to alive" through the language GRRM uses to describe him.

Quote

10 is too many for me to pick (so @Lyanna<3Rhaegar you can have one of my picks).

Alright, than Lyanna<3Rhaegar can keep the sexy Khal :) 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

10 is too many for me to pick (so @Lyanna<3Rhaegar you can have one of my picks).

No-one has mentioned Sandor Clegane so far. He's a very interesting character, even if he's not likeable. I'm really looking forward to seeing more of him in the future books (and I think we will). There's a lot more subtlety to his character than a surface reading would imply.

I also think Tyrion is a fascinating character, but I have to admit that half the fascination for me is seeing how his character can be completely misunderstood. The creators of the abomination spring to mind. They totally overlooked how problematic Tyrion is, misreading his understandable reasons for being the way he is into making his really very bad actions justifiable and actually good; taking Tyrion's own self-justifications at face value.

I also enjoy Sansa 100% and for partly the same reason. It's easy to read her and take her completely at face value as a shallow vain brat, one who never changes thereafter. Someone once argued to me that Sansa was basically an afterthought of the author's and that her chapters aren't to be taken very seriously. But I think she's been crafted extremely carefully and subtly, perhaps to force readers to jump to conclusions which then can be challenged by the author, to cause the reader to re-think their own biases and assumptions.

I guess I generally enjoy the characters where you have to read carefully, read between the lines to some extent and think carefully during the process of reading, being always prepared to acknowledge and question your own unconscious assumptions. 

Also, Jason Momoa is totally hot. :drool:

Haha! Thanks! Yes I totally agree in regards to Tyrion & Jason Momoa ;)

The abomination totally missed Tyrion's character which really stinks because Dinklage is amazing & would have done great with the part. 

Sandor too btw. He is definitely in my top 15

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha! Thanks! Yes I totally agree in regards to Tyrion & Jason Momoa ;)

The abomination totally missed Tyrion's character which really stinks because Dinklage is amazing & would have done great with the part. 

Sandor too btw. He is definitely in my top 15

All fun aside, 10 was just a suggestion :) Please list your favorite 30, if you like.

I just thought naming more, than just your one favorite or your favorite 5 would be interesting. But favorite 15 might be even more interesting. :) 

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Me too! I'm a sucker for humor I guess. Must be why I like you, you crack me up! 

 

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

:lmao:

:D

23 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I also think he would do it in a more subconscious way, when he fears to lose her. It won't be an outright conscious betrayal. A "a-lot-of- bad-circumstances-coming-together" sort of thing.

For sure. I could totally see that. (But I don't want to lol)

23 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Similar maybe to when Sansa told Cersei about them leaving

That wouldn't be similar then. Sansa consciously was "wicked" when she betrayed her fathers plans

23 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I feel like we shouldn't start a Tyrion argument, since he is you favorite. It could easily end in a :fencing:LOL

I dont aim to kill lol

22 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Oh no lol I feel like it has been discussed already a lot, hasn't it?

And this is the first thread about our ten favorite characters? :P

And Im sure its been discussed alot already, but I still don't think nearly enough. Like, take Janos Slynt, how many times we talked about that asshole? 

22 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

My main problem is: He married her against her will and sexually assaulted her. There was also no connection made at all.

He sexually assaulted her? Im pretty sure he didnt. And I wouldn't say Tyrion married her against her will, it was Joff/Tywin. 

22 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tyrion really had the chance to make that happen (the connection). He was the man, the adult, the one with all the power, it was his family, that murdered hers not the other way around. he should have been patient and kind, be a friend to her and give her a lot of time, make her feel save and be interested in her as a person. It would have taken a lot a lot a lot of time and he should have known that and given it to her.

I mean, there was killing on both sides. Like immediately after Tyrions uncle died he rescues Sansa from Joff.

I feel like Tyrion did his best to be a good husband, he tried to take an interest in her religion and the godswood and later offered to take her to the Rock, his childhood home where he was happy and thought they could be.

22 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He put his own "fear" and discomfort on the same level as hers, which is just blatantly the wrong thing to do. He makes it all about himself or at least not nearly enough about her as he should have given her situation.

I see what your saying

22 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And IMO Tyrion is also just unable to love a woman/girl and unable to empathize with a woman on a deeper level.

I disagree. I think its evident that he loved Tysha and Shae. I also think he empathizes with Penny

22 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I don't see Sansa siding with Tyrion over Arya and Jon.

I don't see Jon fighting Tyrion. Nor do I see Sansa siding with Arya

Edited by Hugorfonics

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That wouldn't be similar then. Sansa consciously was "wicked" when she betrayed her fathers plans

Man, what a nitpicker you are LOL  

But I wouldn't put it past Jorah to do something "wicked" for his own benefit, if he thinks it's not going to hurt his queen (at least not much)

So "a Sansa thing" is exactly what I imagine Jorah doing - in a very wicked way

Feel free to disagree of course 

Edited by Nagini's Neville
spelling

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12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Man, what a nitpicker you are LOL  

But I wouldn't put it past Jorah to do something "wickedly" for his own benefit, if he thinks it's not going to hurt his queen (at least not much)

So "a Sansa thing" is exactly what I imagine Jorah doing - in a very wicked way

Feel free to disagree of course 

You & Sansa are both safe with Hugor. He disagrees but he always, always, always disagrees respectfully :)

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Posted (edited)
Quote

Who are your 10 favorite characters and why?

1.   Daenerys Targaryen - Reading her chapters is the highlight of the series for me.  I root for Dany to win the game of thrones and rule for as long as she would care to.  She has outsmarted a lot of men and I like that.  

2.   Margery Tyrell - Another woman who uses her head.  She escaped a bomb when Joffrey died.  I would have liked to see how she would handle that marriage.  

3.   Missandei - She's a wonderful supporting person to the Khaleesi.  Her skills at language is amazing for her age.  

4.   Brienne - This big gal is not blessed in the brains department but her dedication to honor is admirable.  She's a tool and I don't find her chapters that good but she's got guts.

5.   Lord Walder Frey - I wish he had a point of view chapter.  A tough old man who takes a lot of crap and gives it right back.  

6.   Galazza Galare - A villain to be sure.  Another woman who uses her head and keeps power in a world typically dominated by sausages.  

7.   Jorah Mormont - One of the most thoroughly invented character.  His life before meeting the Targaryens and his transformation is what people really mean about a character going through changes.  I know he sold people to slavery for poaching but redemption is coming if he makes the choice to fight the slave masters.

8.   Tyrion Lannister - Is the real gray character.  His bitterness and self-loathing make him vulnerable to the bottle.  He needs a goal like a lot of young men do.  Aimlessness will be the death of him.  Daenerys will hopefully give him a purpose.  

9.   Gilly - I think this gal is set for the adventure of a lifetime if she makes it to Slaver's Bay with Marwyn.  There's a chance to learn to read during the long sea trip.  Quhuru Mo, Penny, and Gerold Dayne are three other minor people who I think will have larger roles in the future.

10. Qaithe - I don't want to spoil it for those who've not read "Fire And Blood".  Clues to her identity might be in those pages.  Let's leave it at that.

Quote

If there is an order, in which order? 

In the order listed, with #1 being the character I like best.  

Edited by Texas Hold Em

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He sexually assaulted her? Im pretty sure he didnt. And I wouldn't say Tyrion married her against her will, it was Joff/Tywin. 

She did not consent to the marriage. She was forced. Even if she did consent, she would have been in no position to consent, since she was an abused hostage. He let her undress at her obvious distress and fear, got undressed himself and groped her breast. That is sexual assault.

(Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.[1] It is a form of sexual violence, which includes rape (forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), gropingchild sexual abuse or the torture of the person in a sexual manner. 

Child sexual abuse, also called child molestation, is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation.[1][2] Forms of child sexual abuse include engaging in sexual activities with a child (whether by asking or pressuring, or by other means), indecent exposure (of the genitals, female nipples, etc.), child groomingchild sexual exploitation[3][4][5] or using a child to produce  child pornography.)

Not to be a jerk and maybe I misunderstand (then my apologies), but it's kinda upsetting to me, if we have to debate in 2020 still about what sexual assault is.

And please let's not pretend like Tyrion couldn't have said no to the marriage, if he truly wanted to. Especially when we know, that Tyrion is definitely capable of disobeying his father, if he truly wants to or have you forgotten Shae? Even right before Sansa and Tyrion are to be married he tells her she should just say the word, if she wanted to marry Lancel instead. Does this suggests, that he thinks he couldn't have said no? 

But my issue is not that he married her. Sure if he was a truly good person he wouldn't have permanently imprisoned her with the family, who murdered hers, especially since he swore an oath to her mother to send her back.(but I guess Tywin really did that so it's not necessarily Tyrion's fault) But this marriage is first and foremost an act of war, their families are at war and of course in it to win it- I get it.

So I have understanding for marrying her. What I do not have understanding for is letting her get naked, getting naked himself and touching her (basically planing to consummate the marriage), when he knew this would be cruel for her, he knew she was a child, he knew she was afraid (she even told him with words) and he knew she could not consent to the marriage via being a hostage therefore did not consent to sex. She cried during the wedding ceremony 

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville
added definition from wiki

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I feel like Tyrion did his best to be a good husband, he tried to take an interest in her religion and the godswood and later offered to take her to the Rock, his childhood home where he was happy and thought they could be.

It was kind of already ruined by the way their marriage started. Sansa is cold even though she stayed polite, kept her distance and untrusting of him. But this all was absolutely normal for her situation. It could have been way worse. She is a child bride, married to her enemy. She has to stay now forever with the people, who've hurt her and her family the most, she went through severe abuse and trauma and most of the time during their marriage she is grieving, because of the resent death of mom and bro. So her behavior is absolutely understandable. If she were Cersei or Arya she'd try to kill him in his sleep.

So maybe I'll  take it back, there could have been no connection made with Sansa in this state at this point in time. At least not, if you don't have natural chemistry with her -or whatever it is-  like the Hound does. His methods are obviously are not the best, but I guess he does one thing right, he is honest with her. In general, but also about himself. This forces (and let's be honest he himself forces her too) Sansa to be honest in return. But Tyrion is not the type for that. I don't fault him for it, though.

He would have had to sit it out with Sansa and given her the time she naturally would have needed. And I mean years here. But what makes a possible connection in the future very questionable are his thoughts and his lack of empathy for her, her situation and a generally misunderstanding of who she is as a person and maybe also not seeing her enough as a person, with her own needs and desires at all. 

All he really does is pity himself and makes it mostly about himself. 

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Sansa’s misery was deepening every day. Tyrion would gladly have broken through her courtesy to give her what solace he might, but it was no good. No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister. This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him.

And their nights together in the great bed were another source of torment. He could no longer bear to sleep naked, as had been his custom. His wife was too well trained ever to say an unkind word, but the revulsion in her eyes whenever she looked on his body was more than he could bear. Tyrion had commanded Sansa to wear a sleeping shift as well.

It is all about his torment, that is so unbearable. And that she doesn't find him attractive, which is unbearable for him. Maybe think a moment about what this is like for her, Tyrion? How can you really be surprised that 13 year old girl, who was forced to married you and dislikes and distrusts Lannisters for good reasons, isn't into you yet? You said yourself she was a child, so maybe also just think about, that she would just not be ready yet, regardless of whatever.

This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him.

could any sentence be more full of self pity? What is so bad about Sansa exactly? When he describes her actions, she never behaves indecent towards him.

He knows this is cruel for her, he knows she will likely not find him attractive (at first), he knows she is a child. All of that he says himself to Tywin or thinks about. Still he prioritizes himself and his suffering, which is in nowhere comparable to hers. It's just not a good basis for a successful union.

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I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust

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As man and wife they shared a marriage bed, but that was all. Even her tears she hoards to herself.

Maybe you should think a bit more about what she wants and needs, Tyrion. You are the 26 year old. And yeah, she won't have a lot of lust for a while. She is only 13. So maybe stop fetishizing her for a second?

This is what I mean with, if he wants to make this work, he should start to think of her more as a person, with her own needs and wants. And not constantly projecting all what he wants onto her. She doesn't want him to comfort her now, doesn't want to bring him her sorrows and joys, doesn't feel like laughing. And he should want that (all of what she doesn't want) for her. 

I just don't understand, that he doesn't see that it needs time? Why is he expecting so much so quickly under such bad circumstances, from someone, who is by no means ready for marriage yet in general? This is the best he could possibly expect. But somehow he still believes her deserves more.

Even though he has all the reasons, why she behaves the way she does (which really shouldn't require a genius to figure out) he is still resentful towards her.

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You might have knelt, damn you. Would it have been so bloody hard to bend those stiff Stark knees of yours and let me keep a little dignity?

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Lady Sansa.” “Was she your wife? She … she was very beautiful …” And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women …

How was Sansa false? He knows she didn't want to marry him, just like he knows Shae was a sex worker. She didn't owe him anything, she was his family's prisoner and she escaped.

And then there is also this messed up comment. 

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Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look; if anything, it had only made her more beautiful.

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I disagree. I think its evident that he loved Tysha and Shae. I also think he empathizes with Penny

I agree that he loved Tysha, but that was a long, long time ago. He didn't love Shae. He loved what he payed her to be. He even told her exactly what he wanted her to be for him. And even told Bronn to warn her of his looks, so she wouldn't have a bad reaction. He never knew the real Shae. And he also wasn't interested in the real one. 

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“I would prefer one who is reasonably young, with as pretty a face as you can find,” he had said. “If she has washed sometime this year, I shall be glad. If she hasn’t, wash her. Be certain that you tell her who I am, and warn her of what I am.”

“In good time. Are you a maiden, Shae?” “If it please you, m’lord,” she said demurely. “What would please me would be the truth of you, girl.” “Aye, but that will cost you double.” Tyrion decided they would get along splendidly. “I am a Lannister. Gold I have in plenty, and you’ll find me generous … but I’ll want more from you than what you’ve got between your legs, though I’ll want that too. You’ll share my tent, pour my wine, laugh at my jests, rub the ache from my legs after each day’s ride … and whether I keep you a day or a year, for so long as we are together you will take no other men into your bed.”

there is just so much here... but Shae isn't the topic rn.

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I don't see Jon fighting Tyrion. 

I wouldn't be so sure. Jon wants the downfall of the Lannisters. depends on the circumstances, I think.

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Nor do I see Sansa siding with Arya

And why not? Just because they disliked each other, when they were 9 and 11? They are sisters after all. They've gone through a lot, have lost half of their family. I think when they finally meet again, they'll be happy to have each other.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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Hugorfonics I guess, I'm being to hard on Tyrion though. In the later chapters of their marriage he does empathize with Sansa more after Cat and Robb are dead. I just wished he had prioritized her in the early chapters more, especially during their wedding night.

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8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It is all about his torment, that is so unbearable. And that she doesn't find him attractive, which is unbearable for him. Maybe think a moment about what this is like for her, Tyrion? How can you really be surprised that 13 year old girl, who was forced to married you and dislikes and distrusts Lannisters for good reasons, isn't into you yet? You said yourself she was a child, so maybe also just think about, that she would just not be ready yet, regardless of whatever

Tyrion has always been complex with his appearance, it would be very painful to be married to someone you know feels disgust for you and can't stand looking at you, he could have been better for her indeed, but as far as possible he acted sensibly in this situation. Imagine what would happen to Sansa if it were a situation that he acted similar to how Drogo had acted with Dany, it would be a far greater trauma for her, few men in Westeros, even more Lannisters would act as Tyrion did.

 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He knows this is cruel for her, he knows she will likely not find him attractive (at first), he knows she is a child. All of that he says himself to Tywin or thinks about. Still he prioritizes himself and his suffering, which is in nowhere comparable to hers. It's just not a good basis for a successful union

He is sad exactly because he knows that nothing he could do can reverse this situation, it would make any man feel helpless, he wants to see her smiling and happy, but he knows she will never be happy with him and his family. He thinking about it, who wants to see her happy, already shows that he is not such a horrible person, in a world where women are seen as an object, and whose only use is to have children, usually men don't give a shit how their wives feel.

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