Favorite characters

[Rose of Red Lake]

Tyrion would never see a woman as an object. He's so deep and sensitive...clearly different from all the other men who kill their whores. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, TedBear said:

Tyrion has always been complex with his appearance, it would be very painful to be married to someone you know feels disgust for you and can't stand looking at you, he could have been better for her indeed, but as far as possible he acted sensibly in this situation. Imagine what would happen to Sansa if it were a situation that he acted similar to how Drogo had acted with Dany, it would be a far greater trauma for her, few men in Westeros, even more Lannisters would act as Tyrion did.

 

He is sad exactly because he knows that nothing he could do can reverse this situation, it would make any man feel helpless, he wants to see her smiling and happy, but he knows she will never be happy with him and his family. He thinking about it, who wants to see her happy, already shows that he is not such a horrible person, in a world where women are seen as an object, and whose only use is to have children, usually men don't give a shit how their wives feel.

He could have disobeyed his father and refused to marry her. Not only he doesn't have a problem disobeying Tywin,  he kind of enjoys it. And to turn the fact that Sansa was forcibly married to someone she didn't like, felt no attraction for, and from the family that was at war w/ her own to boot into a "poor Tyrion pity fest" is buying into and validating all the bs he thinks himself of the situation. 

[Elegant Woes]

I don't have a top 10 characters just a top 5. 

1. Sansa. Have quite some respect and admiration for this girl. This might be a odd thing to say, but it's true. We are introduced to her as this person who assumes the best in everyone, and when all of that comes crashing down, the way she responds to it is so beautiful. She doesn't become bitter and overcome with nihilism because knights are not what she thought them to be like Sandor Clegane, or thinks that she owed everything because she was abused like Cersei. Instead Sansa comes to realize she has to uphold the ideals she learned from the songs, even if society at large doesn't. "I will remember,  Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me. Or an even more beautiful line is, There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can't be lies. Sure Sansa does learn a lot from Cersei, Olenna Tyrell and Littlefinger, but in the end they are also her foils, she will triumph whereas they will fail, because she will do something they never could do: be an effective player while being a good person. Couple that will the leadership skills she's gaining I would say Sansa is a great queen/lady in the making. And that is what makes Sansa an epic and admirable character. 

2. Jon Snow. I love him for the same reason I love Sansa. He encompasses perfectly what George is trying to convey. There's no guarantee you will win being a hero, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try, and Jon does that over and over again. With his background story he could easily become an awful person like Littlefinger or Theon but he doesn't, and that's admirable to me. And at the same time I also like his darker side. He's delightfully cunning, ruthless and pragmatic. Proper traits any king/Lord should have. I am extremely curious just how dark he will get in the upcoming books. 

3. Bran. A sweet and thoughtful boy. It's easy to like him. I am also fascinated just how his ascension to king of the seven kingdoms will take place. If handled well this could be an empowering tale of a disabled boy. His arc is one I am anticipating. 

4. Arya. I think her arc is very fascinating. It's rare to see a female character, especially one so young as Arya, deal with themes like revenge, justice, mercy and forgiveness. Her story is, just like her siblings, about learning how to lead. I am curious to what her ending game is. Ideally I would like her to be part of Bran's council as spokesperson for the common folk. Being defender of the people has always been an important of her arc so her endgame being that is perfect imo. 

5. Melisandre. Hands down my favorite villain of the entire series. In a book series full of characters who see the shades of grey in life it's interesting to see Melidandre have a clear cut black and white view on life. It's disturbing but so compelling to read to what end she will go for her god. Melidandre perfectly illustrates just how dangerous religious fanatics are. I am curious how her downfall will take place. 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, TedBear said:

Tyrion has always been complex with his appearance, it would be very painful to be married to someone you know feels disgust for you and can't stand looking at you, he could have been better for her indeed, but as far as possible he acted sensibly in this situation. Imagine what would happen to Sansa if it were a situation that he acted similar to how Drogo had acted with Dany, it would be a far greater trauma for her, few men in Westeros, even more Lannisters would act as Tyrion did.

I actually think I said everything in my posts already. So dunno if I'm going to argue to much back and forth here. First and foremost she is still a child (he states so himself many times) so sexual desire should not be expected from her towards any person. Period.

And why is he suddenly surprised she is not attracted to him? She did not pick him to marry, she was forced. He knew that before. He thinks about that himself, how she will not be attracted to him. Most people aren't. That is sad for him, but also nobody's else's fault. People don't owe to him to be attracted to him.

I just will never understand, how you can put your own insecurities before your empathy for a child literally trembling with fear to be raped.

This is just incomprehensible to me. Especially because Tyrion is capable of empathy. He understands her situation exactly how it is. He knows at least intellectually how she feels. But when it's important he puts his needs, which are really very petty in comparison to hers, before hers.

Quote

“A child,” he repeated, “but I want you. Does that frighten you, Sansa?” “Yes.”

This sentence is already creepy. But okay at least he asks her: " Are you frightened?" Good start Tyrion! And well done Sansa for telling the truth! Now he has a clear answer, this 12 year old girl is not only trembling and was crying during the wedding ceremony. Now she is telling him with words she is afraid .

Here he should have just stopped. His compassion for her as a person, should have won. There is nothing easier than faking a wedding night. There is nobody there but them.

But what does he do? He says this:

Quote

“Me as well. I know I am ugly—”

By putting his "fear and discomfort" on the same level as hers (which it is not even comparable to the fear of a child to be raped) he is making himself out to be a victim along side with her in this situation, which he is not. He is one of the might-be- abusers along with Tywin and Joffrey. He doesn't have to rape her. She on the other hand has no choice.

Instead of talking about her fear and what he could do to make it better for her (if he already plans to go through with it, at least talk to her about it, she is only 12 and a virgin after all or better decide to not do it right away), he shifts the focus onto him and all of his insecurities (opposed to the fear of a child to be raped) and also expects some comfort and reassurance from her and is bitter, when she cannot give it to him. 

You are about to rape her, Tyrion, and simultaneously you except her to somehow show you, that she actually wants you? Like tell your rapist some nice words, before he rapes you and reassure him? LOL

And it was not an arranged marriage, but a forced one. Neither Sansa nor anyone she loves from her family has consented to this union. And I could list quite a few men, who won't agree to a forced marriage or at least wouldn't touch her under those circumstances. But even if all of them did, does that mean, we shouldn't call out their behavior anymore? Label it sexual assault or rape? Only because lords are allowed to rape and beat their wives, don't we label them abusers anymore, especially when there are men, who don't rape their wives? 

Also when we are talking about laws and rights: Who appointed, that Tyrion should be Sansa's husband and has given him therefore complete authority over her? It was Joffrey and Tywin. So since when do we think that their orders are lawful, right and just and must therefore be obeyed? When they framed Ned for treason and murdered him? Where was the justice in that? When they conspired with Westerlings and Freys to maliciously murder Cat and Robb? 

So if we look at the issue independently from modern day morality, why should we as readers believe Tyrion has any martial rights over Sansa, when it was Tywin and Joffrey just granting him those "rights" against her will? So how can anyone argue that Tyrion has in anyway the right to sex with Sansa, even from solely an in- world perspective, in which husbands have the right to their wives' bodies? It falls in line with them aiding to murder Robb and Cat under the protection of guest right. 

And also sexually assaulting someone is not acting sensibly just because it is better than rape. There is always someone worse.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, TedBear said:

He is sad exactly because he knows that nothing he could do can reverse this situation

There is a lot he could do. For example comfort her and fake the wedding night right from the get go. He doesn't have to force himself on to her. He could make her feel save and be patient with her, give her time, not expecting anything from her, in her situation. It was the same day, that she has learned she would be married to him, that day she is expected to sleep with him and she hasn't even kissed a boy (no, she didn't kiss Joffrey)

What is even funnier to me is that, when he actually decides to not go through with it and stops, he doesn't even bother to fake the wedding night anymore (put some blood on the sheets for the maids, because apparently they are all blood obsessed in Westeros, and have a talk with sansa about it). So when it gets out that they didn't consummate (because of Cersei's spy maids) and NOTHING at all HAPPENS, he doesn't even try to deny it to his father and also doesn't do so, when Tywin keeps on telling him - in a relatively mild way, for him- to consummate. Tyrion basically just tells him to f off. So there was really no need at all to put Sansa through this.

Also he could have refused to marry her, if he truly wanted to. He has proven to be capable to go against his father, if he really wants to.

 

[Elegant Woes]

Even if there was no forced marriage and the age gap between Tyrion and Sansa they still would be a horrible couple, because it's terribly one-sided. Sansa has shown great deal of kindness towards Tyrion. She felt empathy and pity for him and even though Sansa desperately wants to get out of their marriage she doesn't want him to die for it. Plus she felt great deal of guilt over him being blamed for Joffrey's death and defended him against Lysa. Now what does Tyrion do? He thinks she is stupid, thinks her love for songs are silly and assumes the worst of her. Never does he considered she's cold to him because he's Lannister, no it must be because he's a dwarf *rolls eyes*. Does his dwarfism affect how Sansa views him? To a certain extent yes, because in a society like that Sansa is bound to be ableist, but the fact he's a Lannister and has great deal of power over her as her husband greatly eclipses that. He can accuse Sansa of being shallow all he wants, but at least she managed to see him past his looks and acknowledge he's a kinder Lannister. Tyrion on the other hand never sees Sansa beyond her looks. That's the greatest irony of their dynamic. Sansa, at the age of 13, showed more emotional maturity than the 26 year old Tyrion. Embarrassing much. 

[TedBear]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Tyrion would never see a woman as an object. He's so deep and sensitive...clearly different from all the other men who kill their whores

I think you did not quite understand my comment, marriage are made so that they have heirs, it would be easy for him to rape her, if it were this person horribly in disgrace, in this scenario why would he care if she is smiling or not, I'm not saying he's a good man, I just don't think he was a completely bad husband.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

18 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I actually think I said everything in my posts already. So dunno if I'm going to argue to much back and forth here. First and foremost she is still a child (he states so himself many times) so sexual desire should not be expected from her towards any person. Period.

And why is he suddenly surprised she is not attracted to him? She did not pick him to marry, she was forced. He knew that before. He thinks about that himself, how she will not be attracted to him. Most people aren't. That is sad for him, but also nobody's else's fault. People don't owe to him to be attracted to him.

I just will never understand, how you can put your own insecurities before your empathy for a child literally trembling with fear to be raped.

This is just incomprehensible to me. Especially because Tyrion is capable of empathy. He understands her situation exactly how it is. He knows at least intellectually how she feels. But when it's important he puts his needs, which are really very petty in comparison to hers, before hers.

This sentence is already creepy. But okay at least he asks her: " Are you frightened?" Good start Tyrion! And well done Sansa for telling the truth! Now he has a clear answer, this 12 year old girl is not only trembling and was crying during the wedding ceremony. Now she is telling him with words she is afraid .

Here he should have just stopped. His compassion for her as a person, should have won. There is nothing easier than faking a wedding night. There is nobody there but them.

But what does he do? He says this:

By putting his "fear and discomfort" on the same level as hers (which it is not even comparable to the fear of a child to be raped) he is making himself out to be a victim along side with her in this situation, which he is not. He is one of the might-be- abusers along with Tywin and Joffrey. He doesn't have to rape her. She on the other hand has no choice.

Instead of talking about her fear and what he could do to make it better for her (if he already plans to go through with it, at least talk to her about it, she is only 12 and a virgin after all or better decide to not do it right away), he shifts the focus onto him and all of his insecurities (opposed to the fear of a child to be raped) and also expects some comfort and reassurance from her and is bitter, when she cannot give it to him. 

You are about to rape her, Tyrion, and simultaneously you except her to somehow show you, that she actually wants you? Like tell your rapist some nice words, before he rapes you and reassure him? LOL

And it was not an arranged marriage, but a forced one. Neither Sansa nor anyone she loves from her family has consented to this union. And I could list quite a few men, who won't agree to a forced marriage or at least wouldn't touch her under those circumstances. But even if all of them did, does that mean, we shouldn't call out their behavior anymore? Label it sexual assault or rape? Only because lords are allowed to rape and beat their wives, don't we label them abusers anymore, especially when there are men, who don't rape their wives? 

Also when we are talking about laws and rights: Who appointed, that Tyrion should be Sansa's husband and has given him therefore complete authority over her? It was Joffrey and Tywin. So since when do we think that their orders are lawful, right and just and must therefore be obeyed? When they framed Ned for treason and murdered him? Where was the justice in that? When they conspired with Westerlings and Freys to maliciously murder Cat and Robb? 

So if we look at the issue independently from modern day morality, why should we as readers believe Tyrion has any martial rights over Sansa, when it was Tywin and Joffrey just granting him those "rights" against her will? So how can anyone argue that Tyrion has in anyway the right to sex with Sansa, even from solely an in- world perspective, in which husbands have the right to their wives' bodies? It falls in line with them aiding to murder Robb and Cat under the protection of guest right. 

And also sexually assaulting someone is not acting sensibly just because it is better than rape. There is always someone worse.

There isn't anything you wrote that I disagree with, I just want to add some thoughts. 

I think where (at least some) of the difference of opinions come from is that it is hard to liken Tyrion to a sexual abuser when he is also a likeable (to some) guy. People feel sympathetic towards him & his plight. He is hated by his father & sister for something totally out of his control & often does not get the credit he deserves. The love of his life was cruelly taken from him & if we are being honest it was a rare thing that she fell in love with him to begin with so he doesn't have a high chance of finding someone else. Couple that with the mysogynistic society & you have a ready made argument for Tyrion fans to justify him with. 

At the end of the day though, while all of that is true, it doesn't matter one, single, little, teeny, weeny, iota in this case. You don't get a pass to abuse other people, especially children, because you have been abused or because you had a rough life. 

I am a Tyrion fan & it was hard for me to reconcile this in my mind. I only remembered (probably purposefully so, on a subconscious level)  that he tried to be kind, that he argued some about marrying her & did not consummate the marriage. I only wanted to think about the things that he did that were on par with who I wanted him to be. I didn't even realize until coming to this forum that it was even argued that he sexually abused her. After re-reading that passage a few times I was heart broken. Heart broken for Sansa & myself because I had to face the reality that he did indeed sexually assault a little girl. He had reasons, sure. He isn't just a sadistic rapist. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter to Sansa what his reasons were or if she is only his ever victim, because she is his victim. Not his alone - there are other culprits involved here but the buck stopped with him & he was the one that had the power to NOT sexually abuse her, not to mention that he seems to have more empathy than the rest of them so he was also the one that should have been most aware of the damage that he was subjecting her to & chose differently. 

I really, truly wish he would have drank him self into a stupor & realized even at that point he could not subject this little girl to the things he was expected to do to her. I could forgive him for marrying her & I think the argument can be made that while he could have outright refused, he probably should have been pretty scared of the consequences from Tywin. At any rate I could have gotten over the forced marriage IF he had stood his ground where the consummation came in. 

It is creepy to have him say he wanted her. He knows she is a child & I'm honestly really frustrated with GRRM for writing that part. I think it was a mistake - he shouldn't have included that even if he was going to have Tyrion assault her because now, not only has he sexually abused this child but also he is a pedophile that finds pleasure in children. That isn't something we saw from him before or since & I personally don't think it fits into his character. Of course, anything can happen but it is my opinion that part of the dialogue does not fit with Tyrion. 

[Elegant Woes]

To be fair we can't really blame Tyrion for not faking their wedding night, because Sansa being a virgin had to be known by court so that a future annulment can take place. It might make Tyrion look a stupid, but GRRM wanted this. This marriage was never meant to last. 

[Nagini's Neville]

6 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Even if there was no forced marriage and the age gap between Tyrion and Sansa they still would be a horrible couple, because it's terribly one-sided. Sansa has shown great deal of kindness towards Tyrion. She felt empathy and pity for him and even though Sansa desperately wants to get out of their marriage she doesn't want him to die for it. Plus she felt great deal of guilt over him being blamed for Joffrey's death and defended him against Lysa. Now what does Tyrion do? He thinks she is stupid, thinks her love for songs are silly and assumes the worst of her. Never does he considered she's cold to him because he's Lannister, no it must be because he's a dwarf *rolls eyes*. Does his dwarfism affect how Sansa views him? To a certain extent yes, because in a society like that Sansa is bound to be ableist, but the fact he's a Lannister and has great deal of power of her as her husband greatly eclipses that. He can accuse Sansa of being shallow all he wants, but at least she managed to see him past his looks and acknowledge he's a kinder Lannister. Tyrion on the other hand never sees Sansa beyond her looks. That's the greatest irony of their dynamic. Sansa, at the age of 13, showed more emotionally maturity than the 26 year old Tyrion. Embarrassing much. 

I agree with all of this, guess I just wanted to give it a fair try. Since Sansa is actually not shallow (only being attracted to beautiful boys, when you are 11 is not shallow- it's normal. Only being attracted to young beautiful girls like Tyrion and LF however... )and very forgiving, I actually think, if he had treated her right from the get go (including seeing her more as a person), he could have over time maybe won her heart. But would it have been fair to her? probably still not. But I actually think Sansa is that kind of person, with whom, that would have been possible. Because she is capable of seeing ppl in all their complexities. But there was no sign, that she could find him attractive, but mainly because of his neediness (pity is the death of desire) not his looks. Doesn't mean it's necessarily good for her though, of course.

This sums up Sansa's main issue with the marriage up:

Quote

If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce.” I don’t want any Lannister, she wanted to say.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

23 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

To be fair we can't really blame Tyrion for not faking their wedding night, because Sansa being a virgin had to be known by court so that a future annulment can take place. It might make Tyrion look a stupid, but GRRM wanted this. This marriage was never meant to last. 

Yeah, plot-wise it makes sense. But we can not use this argument, when we are judging a character's behavior. It doesn't make him look stupid IMO, but cruel to try to consummate, when he could have just as easily faked it. 

That was really one of the funnier and quite unrealistic elements, when suddenly everyone knew and was 100% sure that she was still a virgin, nobody even questioning it. Quite hilarious IMO. Why? Just because the maids didn't find bloody sheets? If he didn't need that story-line, I'm sure GRRM would have seized the opportunity right away to make everyone invent "cruel" jokes about Tyrion's penis seize. LOL

[Elegant Woes]

@Nagini's Neville I think that Sansa's shallowness was more about the fact that she associated beauty with goodness and that needed to be deconstructed, but the fandom twisted that and assumed that she is supposed to end up with someone ugly, when in reality Tyrion is a really awful person. He will never be a viable suitor for Sansa and the fandom needs to accept that. 

[Hugorfonics]

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Man, what a nitpicker you are LOL  

Lol. Sansas like my second favorite character but I dont cut her any slack. (Which I try not to with Tyrion also) She knew she was wicked. (Whom I truly blame, like usual, is Ned. He told Arya the truth of the dangers they face and why they must act like a family and not succumb to wild emotions. He neglected to instruct his other daughter, about anything)

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Feel free to disagree of course 

Ok

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But I wouldn't put it past Jorah to do something "wicked" for his own benefit, if he thinks it's not going to hurt his queen (at least not much)

So "a Sansa thing" is exactly what I imagine Jorah doing - in a very wicked way

I disagree. Jorah doesn't really care about his benefits, he left Longclaw at home and never returned even after fulfilling his obligation to the Spider. Jorahs not in it for himself, he wasn't when he let his wife bankrupt him nor when he sailed away from KL with Tyrion in chains

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She did not consent to the marriage. She was forced. Even if she did consent, she would have been in no position to consent, since she was an abused hostage. He let her undress at her obvious distress and fear, got undressed himself and groped her breast. That is sexual assault.

(Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.^[1] It is a form of sexual violence, which includes rape (forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, child sexual abuse or the torture of the person in a sexual manner. 

Child sexual abuse, also called child molestation, is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation.^[1][2] Forms of child sexual abuse include engaging in sexual activities with a child (whether by asking or pressuring, or by other means), indecent exposure (of the genitals, female nipples, etc.), child grooming, child sexual exploitation^[3][4][5] or using a child to produce  child pornography.)

Not to be a jerk and maybe I misunderstand (then my apologies), but it's kinda upsetting to me, if we have to debate in 2020 still about what sexual assault is.

Word. Groping a frightened naked preteen is sexual assault. Not his most shining moment

However he was drunk at his wedding night when his wife asked if she should take her clothes off. When Tyrion started to fondle her he noticed her discomfort and immediately stopped. 

Its not his shining moment, but its not his worse either. Especially when you consider that virtually every other character would have raped the child

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And please let's not pretend like Tyrion couldn't have said no to the marriage, if he truly wanted to. Especially when we know, that Tyrion is definitely capable of disobeying his father, if he truly wants to or have you forgotten Shae? Even right before Sansa and Tyrion are to be married he tells her she should just say the word, if she wanted to marry Lancel instead. Does this suggests, that he thinks he couldn't have said no? 

He could have said no. Like Edmure was left with the option of saying no to the RW, but its what his house and family expected of him. Plus it was the obvious correct political move.

However I fear Tywins wrath would be spectacular if Tyrion declined. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It was kind of already ruined by the way their marriage started.

Catelyns marriage started off shaky but ended up blissful while Dorans started blissful but now is in decay. Marriage isnt just about the first few months

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It was kind of already ruined by the way their marriage started. Sansa is cold even though she stayed polite, kept her distance and untrusting of him. But this all was absolutely normal for her situation. It could have been way worse. She is a child bride, married to her enemy. She has to stay now forever with the people, who've hurt her and her family the most, she went through severe abuse and trauma and most of the time during their marriage she is grieving, because of the resent death of mom and bro. So her behavior is absolutely understandable.

Absolutely. I dont fault Sansa for being a shitty wife but given the situation I dont fault Tyrion for being a shitty husband. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

If she were Cersei or Arya she'd try to kill him in his sleep.

I doubt that. Robert was a shittier husband then almost any character and he didnt get murdered (in his sleep lol). Likewise Arya has a gift of seeing the truth behind people's character, like when she decided she didn't want to murder Sandor

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

could any sentence be more full of self pity? What is so bad about Sansa exactly? When he describes her actions, she never behaves indecent towards him.

He knows this is cruel for her, he knows she will likely not find him attractive (at first), he knows she is a child. All of that he says himself to Tywin or thinks about. Still he prioritizes himself and his suffering, which is in nowhere comparable to hers. It's just not a good basis for a successful union.

She hates him. She behaved decent, sure but thats who she was. She was decent to Cersei and Joff as well. But what Sansa also is is aloof. 

Sansa knows shes going to get rescued so never felt the need to warm up to her husband, thusly Tyrion was often looking from the outside, guessing at his wifes suffering.

It all sounds miserable and not a successful personal life at all, but thats often what happens when you live in KL. 

I believe now if they were to reunite, on equal terms, far from KL, happiness and love is possible

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

How was Sansa false? He knows she didn't want to marry him, just like he knows Shae was a sex worker.

I think he was telling Penny his feelings for Sansa were false, unlike Shae.

And yea, she was a sex worker. Then she met Tyrion. Did he continue to pay her? I mean he gave her clothes and a cushy job sure, but money on the counter? By the end Shae was more then just Tyrions whore

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She didn't owe him anything, she was his family's prisoner and she escaped.

She may not have owed Tyrion anything, but she sure as hell does now. She only escaped because of the plot against Tyrion. The man is a convicted kingslayer directly caused bybSansas meddling. They may never have had sex, but she fucked him

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And then there is also this messed up comment. 

When his wife was in pain he wanted to comfort her. I thought it was sweet lol

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He never knew the real Shae. And he also wasn't interested in the real one. 

I dont think thats true. He asked questions about her backstory and family. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I wouldn't be so sure. Jon wants the downfall of the Lannisters. depends on the circumstances, I think.

Jon named Tyrion friend. And when Stannis tried to make him a lord Jon reminded him WFs lord is Sansa. Stannis assumes this means Tyrion to which Jon stops arguing because imo, he realizes arguing with Stannis is pointless

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And why not? Just because they disliked each other, when they were 9 and 11? They are sisters after all. They've gone through a lot, have lost half of their family. I think when they finally meet again, they'll be happy to have each other.

Thats a nice thought.

Sometimes when Arya thinks of Sansa its sadness and regret. A little bit of anger still. But when Sansa thinks of Arya its almost always in anger. She has yet to forgive Arya, let alone mourn her, as shes convinced shes dead

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

. I just wished he had prioritized her in the early chapters more, especially during their wedding night.

Word. It wouldn't have made a difference though. Sansa was keen on escaping with Dontos long before she ever married the Imp

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Nagini's Neville I think that Sansa's shallowness was more about the fact that she associated beauty with goodness and that needed to be deconstructed, but the fandom twisted that and assumed that she is supposed to end up with someone ugly, when in reality Tyrion is a really awful person. He will never be a viable suitor for Sansa and the fandom needs to accept that. 

Yeah, that too. But I also don't think any 11 year old is into an "old" and ugly person. That would be just weird. Even Arya thinks JP must be blind to find BWB Beric attractive.

[Elegant Woes]

Sansa should never be considered to be shallow for liking good looks and I am disturbed that there are people who take issue with it. Besides what made Joffrey likeable to Sansa in the first place was him being "gallant" to her. Ironically Arya was the one to take note of his looks first, and yet no one calls her shallow*. Just like always Sansa is judged far more harshly compared to other characters. 

Speaking of Beric Dondarrion Sansa thinks he's awfully old, and he's younger than Tyrion. Another reason why he isn't a viable suitor, he's simply too old for Sansa's taste. Anyone who suggests she needs to get over this is spreading some pedophilic message. Let this poor girl have some standards in her romantic interest, please.

*Before anyone attacks me, no I don't think Arya is shallow. I am just highlighting the hypocrisy in this fandom that's all. There's nothing wrong with appreciating looks no matter who does it, especially a child like Arya. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

Tyrion on the other hand never sees Sansa beyond her looks. 

Thats not true

.

Tyrion led Sansa around the yard, to perform the necessary courtesies.

She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he'd left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel's hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he'd had the sense to love her. He wondered if his nephew was capable of loving anyone.

.

Tyrion did more then just check out her looks

7 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I never considered Sansa to be shallow for liking good and I am disturbed that there are people who take issue with it. Besides what made Joffrey likeable to Sansa in the first place was him being "gallant" to her. Ironically Arya was the one to take note of his looks first, and yet no one calls her shallow*. Just like always Sansa is judged far more harshly compared to other characters. 

*Before anyone attacks me, no I don't think Arya is shallow. There's nothing wrong with appreciating looks no matter who does it, especially a child like Arya. 

 Sansa is shallow. She is appalled at being labeled a Stone like she was appalled at 20 somthing year old Beric warring the against Mountain instead of pretty boy Loras

[TedBear]

14 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I never considered Sansa to be shallow for liking good and I am disturbed that there are people who take issue with it. Besides what made Joffrey likeable to Sansa in the first place was him being "gallant" to her. Ironically Arya was the one to take note of his looks first, and yet no one calls her shallow*. Just like always Sansa is judged far more harshly compared to other characters

I think she was shallow, at least at first, but I don't see any problem with that, we were all shallow at that age, or Justin Bieber wouldn't have been so successful. 

[Elegant Woes]

@Hugorfonics Sansa not liking the idea of being bastard doesn't make her shallow, it makes her classist. I never said that Sansa wasn't shallow, because she was. Her shallowness was that she associated beauty with goodness and ugly with evilness and guess what? She unlearned that mindset back in AGOT/ACOK. I only fight against the idea there's something wrong Sansa wanting a handsome husband. Do you hold male characters who want only beautiful women as their partner to the same standard? 

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, TedBear said:

I think she was shallow, at least at first, but I don't see any problem with that, we were all shallow at that age, or Justin Bieber wouldn't have been so successful. 

Exactly my words. Thank you! IMO it is really hypocritical, that everyone always pretends like character traits, where the most important thing for them at that age. That's the only reason, why you like someone at that age- because they look cute.

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sansa is shallow. She is appalled at being labeled a Stone like she was appalled at 20 somthing year old Beric warring the against Mountain instead of pretty boy Loras

That's how it works, when you are 11. Were you into ugly old people when you where 11? No 11 year old will become infatuated, with someone unattractive. And yeah 20 is old at that age. And with all these old men prying on her I am happy, that she at least drew the line between her as a child and them as old. the truth hurts, but that's how it is  (Beric),Sandor, Tyrion, LF are all ancient - they should deal with it, yet they keep coming back like boomerangs.

She wouldn't be able to see all the complexities of Tyrion and the Hound, if she were so shallow. One married her against her will, the other one had a habit of threatening to kill her, both look ugly and she still thinks only positively and fondly of them. And then there is also of course the Unkiss, which some people are convinced of, indicates an attraction(we don't know if that's true, but it certainly doesn't indicate a repulsion). So why would she deal with two such flawed and unattractive men, who done her wrong, if she was so shallow? And also only sees their positive sides. 

Being classist is not exactly the same as being shallow, but please provide quotes for Sansa being appalled to be labeled Stone.