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Nagini's Neville

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17 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

1.   Daenerys Targaryen - Reading her chapters is the highlight of the series for me.  I root for Dany to win the game of thrones and rule for as long as she would care to.  She has outsmarted a lot of men and I like that.  

2.   Margery Tyrell - Another woman who uses her head.  She escaped a bomb when Joffrey died.  I would have liked to see how she would handle that marriage.  

3.   Missandei - She's a wonderful supporting person to the Khaleesi.  Her skills at language is amazing for her age.  

4.   Brienne - This big gal is not blessed in the brains department but her dedication to honor is admirable.  She's a tool and I don't find her chapters that good but she's got guts.

5.   Lord Walder Frey - I wish he had a point of view chapter.  A tough old man who takes a lot of crap and gives it right back.  

6.   Galazza Galare - A villain to be sure.  Another woman who uses her head and keeps power in a world typically dominated by sausages.  

7.   Jorah Mormont - One of the most thoroughly invented character.  His life before meeting the Targaryens and his transformation is what people really mean about a character going through changes.  I know he sold people to slavery for poaching but redemption is coming if he makes the choice to fight the slave masters.

8.   Tyrion Lannister - Is the real gray character.  His bitterness and self-loathing make him vulnerable to the bottle.  He needs a goal like a lot of young men do.  Aimlessness will be the death of him.  Daenerys will hopefully give him a purpose.  

9.   Gilly - I think this gal is set for the adventure of a lifetime if she makes it to Slaver's Bay with Marwyn.  There's a chance to learn to read during the long sea trip.  Quhuru Mo, Penny, and Gerold Dayne are three other minor people who I think will have larger roles in the future.

10. Qaithe - I don't want to spoil it for those who've not read "Fire And Blood".  Clues to her identity might be in those pages.  Let's leave it at that.

In the order listed, with #1 being the character I like best.  

That’s a time warp for a simple mind like Gilly.  I wonder if Aemon is still on that boat.  The second miracle might buy his resurrection.  

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16 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She wouldn't be able to see all the complexities of Tyrion and the Hound, if she were so shallow. One married her against her will, the other one had a habit of threatening to kill her, both look ugly and she still thinks only positively and fondly of them. And then there is also of course the Unkiss, which some people are convinced of, indicates an attraction(we don't know if that's true, but it certainly doesn't indicate a repulsion). So why would she deal with two such flawed and unattractive men, who done her wrong, if she was so shallow? And also only sees their positive sides. 

I thought she judged Sandor quite well: a mean dog that bites the hand that tries to pet him. She pities him; she pities Tyrion too - astonishing she can do that.

16 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Being classist is not exactly the same as being shallow, but please provide quotes for Sansa being appalled to be labeled Stone.

It was when LF first suggested the Alayne scheme. She's right though - being a bastard is a huge drop in status, e.g.  Marillion thought he could rape her without any future trouble. Can you blame her for being class-ist if the class system is actually real?

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Didn't Arya cry at the thought of being a bastard and Jon had to comfort her she wasn't one? I don't see anyone calling her out. Classism is only an issue when Sansa displays it. Like I said, there's different standard for Sansa and the other characters. 

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52 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Hugorfonics Sansa not liking the idea of being bastard doesn't make her shallow, it makes her classist. 

Eh, both. More shallow. (Ill explain down below)

52 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I only fight against the idea there's something wrong Sansa wanting a handsome husband. Do you hold male characters who want only beautiful women as their partner to the same standard? 

There's nothing wrong with wanting a good looking partner, but I take issue that Sansa deserves one. 

In Westeros you marry whom your instructed to. Family Duty Honor. Her mothers words demand that Sansa takes her marriage seriously

29 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's how it works, when you are 11. Were you into ugly old people when you where 11? No 11 year old will become infatuated, with someone unattractive.

When I was a preteen I learned that if I spend enough time with a girl who I have feelings for I see beauty that I didnt before. It continues to happen throughout my life.

How old was Tysha? Not much older then 11. She (I think) seemed to have feelings for Tyrion

33 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Being classist is not exactly the same as being shallow, but please provide quotes for Sansa being appalled to be labeled Stone.

Ask and ye shall receive 

.

It is not safe to be a Stark just now. So we shall tell Lysa's people that you are my natural daughter."

"Natural?" Sansa was aghast. "You mean, a bastard?"

"Well, you can scarcely be my trueborn daughter. I've never taken a wife, that's well known. What should you be called?"

"I . . . I could call myself after my mother . . . "

"Catelyn? A bit too obvious . . . but after my mother, that would serve. Alayne. Do you like it?"

"Alayne is pretty." Sansa hoped she would remember. "But couldn't I be the trueborn daughter of some knight in your service? Perhaps he died gallantly in the battle, and . . . "

.

The daughter of some dead knight is not high in the class structure, certainly under the LP of the Riverlands bastard. Sansas issue was being born on the wrong side of the sheets, as if that means anything when you play pretend. However its downright striking that thats her outlook on bastards when you consider her being raised with Jon as a brother 

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6 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Didn't Arya cry at the thought of being a bastard and Jon had to comfort her she wasn't one? I don't see anyone calling her out. Classism is only an issue when Sansa displays it. Like I said, there's different standard for Sansa and the other characters. 

No. Lol. Catelyn comforted Sansa, and told her Arya was trueborn which boggled Sansas mind. 

If only Arya was more like Myrcella and lovable, maybe shes a bastard like Jon? Then she wont have to honor her sister.

Fucking disgusting. Theres certainly a different standard for Sansa.

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Why couldn't Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked a sister like that.

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

 

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2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The daughter of some dead knight is not high in the class structure, certainly under the LP of the Riverlands bastard. Sansas issue was being born on the wrong side of the sheets, as if that means anything when you play pretend. However its downright striking that thats her outlook on bastards when you consider her being raised with Jon as a brother 

Bastards carry an extra burden - there are a lot of prejudices in Westeros such as bastard girls being extra horny, bastards growing up quicker, and whatever Roose says about bastards being naturally evil.

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

No. Lol. Catelyn comforted Sansa, and told her Arya was trueborn which boggled Sansas mind. 

No, it is correct that Arya was genuinely afraid of being a bastard because she did not look like her siblings - it was Jon who reassured her.

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18 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I thought she judged Sandor quite well: a mean dog that bites the hand that tries to pet him. She pities him; she pities Tyrion too - astonishing she can do that.

yep, that was poorly worded.  She knows, who the Hound is and she also IMO noticed some pretty interesting things about Tyrion. She is quite perceptive. 

What I should have said, she only recalls/thinks about both of their positive sides and actions, when she isn't interacting with them anymore. She never leaves out that Sandor threatened to kill her, but she also doesn't dwell or reflect on it. She definitely doesn't seem upset with him over it. Which IMO is a bit weird. And she never recalls how afraid she was of him either. And never thinks ill of Tyrion. Yeah she pitied him and I think is grateful to him :ack:. But I don't think she pities the Hound. At least it never says that in the text. I think she is "sad" and "afraid" for him (compassion)

Merci for the Stone knowledge and I agree. She is just smart, that's all:D

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My favourites (not the ones I think are the best people, the ones I look forward to reading):

  • Cersei - I love a good villain, and yes, she's super brave. I'm not.
  • Melisandre - a window into magic. A great bluffer. I'm not.
  • Brienne - a good person in a cruel world.
  • Sansa - the most layered, controversial character in the book
  • Prince Doran - another type of courage
  • Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Manderly - fights a losing position in great style
  • Stannis - I don't know why I like him
  • Jaime - can't stand him, but witty, and good arc
  • Pod - more than he seems; and a good person
  • Sandor - a bad man with a conscience; interesting

So many good female characters to choose from! Early Daenerys would fit the list too.

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@Hugorfonics No I meant what I said, Arya doesn't like the thought of being a bastard either, and worse she called Gendry a bastard in his face. Robb calls Jon a bastard and says he will never inherit Winterfell straight into his face. Jon beats up a group of peasant boys because he's in a bad mood. Sansa thinks in her head that Arya being a bastard would be easier, makes one classist comment in retaliation to  sexist comment of Jon and voices she doesn't want to be bastard for a good reason, and suddenly you cry foul? How about you hold other characters to the same standard you have for Sansa. 

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30 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Bastards carry an extra burden - there are a lot of prejudices in Westeros such as bastard girls being extra horny, bastards growing up quicker, and whatever Roose says about bastards being naturally evil.

No doubt, Sansa is probably a little prejudice herself

32 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

No, it is correct that Arya was genuinely afraid of being a bastard because she did not look like her siblings - it was Jon who reassured her.

Ahh. I see.

Quote

When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her.

What do you think are the chances the two stories are connected? Id say its a high chance that Sansa decided that Arya must be a bastard and informed her before she asked Cat

19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She is just smart, that's all:D

She is. Which is why I find her oddity with being a bastard so perplexing in this game of hide your identity. Its a complete contrast to her husband jumping at the name Hill in the game of hiding.

But when you consider Sansas affinity with bastards it gets less perplexing

Quote

He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant.

 

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@Hugorfonics For a Sansa fan you sure have an awful view of her. What gives you the idea Sansa was mean to Arya before the Darry incident? Even with a gigantic bias against Sansa Arya thinks Sansa is too well bred to laugh at her misfortune in her very first chapter. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise Sansa isn't the mean bully of Arya.  

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

There's nothing wrong with wanting a good looking partner, but I take issue that Sansa deserves one. 

In Westeros you marry whom your instructed to. Family Duty Honor. Her mothers words demand that Sansa takes her marriage seriously

When I was a preteen I learned that if I spend enough time with a girl who I have feelings for I see beauty that I didnt before. It continues to happen throughout my life.

How old was Tysha? Not much older then 11. She (I think) seemed to have feelings for Tyrion

Ask and ye shall receive 

.

It is not safe to be a Stark just now. So we shall tell Lysa's people that you are my natural daughter."

"Natural?" Sansa was aghast. "You mean, a bastard?"

"Well, you can scarcely be my trueborn daughter. I've never taken a wife, that's well known. What should you be called?"

"I . . . I could call myself after my mother . . . "

"Catelyn? A bit too obvious . . . but after my mother, that would serve. Alayne. Do you like it?"

"Alayne is pretty." Sansa hoped she would remember. "But couldn't I be the trueborn daughter of some knight in your service? Perhaps he died gallantly in the battle, and . . . "

.

The daughter of some dead knight is not high in the class structure, certainly under the LP of the Riverlands bastard. Sansas issue was being born on the wrong side of the sheets, as if that means anything when you play pretend. However its downright striking that thats her outlook on bastards when you consider her being raised with Jon as a brother 

Are you serious? Who deserves a good-looking partner than, please? Apparently Tyrion in your opinion?  Wow, you know how that makes you sound like right? It starts with m and ends with isogynist. Sorry, Hugor but that was tooo far. Not even wicked anymore. Tyrion is a much darker character, than Sansa. He done some horrible things. Why in the world would he deserve someone like beautiful gentle kind lemon cake, especially, because he has personally wronged her before to put it lightly? Hm? 

If Sansa doesn't deserve someone attractive, that 90 % of the men in the 7 kingdoms don't. Well, I stop now @Elegant Woes will go off any minute- it's her pet peeve :D

Tysha was 14. Sansa is 13 at the end of AFFC, pretending to be 14 and a lot of people think she has a crush on Sandor. And is definitely not swooned anymore by HH's good-looks. For her that's called growing-up. What is Tyrion gonna do? He is already grown. But still only into beautiful young girls. Is he taking a potential marriage seriously? I hope you see, that's a massive double standard, right?

SW has some pretty good arguments, why being a bastard as a girl is not such a good thing. 

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10 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Hugorfonics For a Sansa fan you sure have an awful view of her. What gives you the idea Sansa was mean to Arya before the Darry incident? Even with a gigantic bias against Sansa Arya thinks Sansa is too well bred to laugh at her misfortune in her very first chapter. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise Sansa isn't the mean bully of Arya.  

I don't think that's fair. I'm a Sansa fan & have a similar view. Arya is my #1 favorite character but I'm quite aware of her flaws also. 

Sansa was shallow. She was a little bullyish to Arya. I was a little the same to my younger sister. You can be a fan & still understand her faults. 

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26 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Hugorfonics No I meant what I said, Arya doesn't like the thought of being a bastard either, and worse she called Gendry a bastard in his face. Robb calls Jon a bastard and says he will never inherit Winterfell straight into his face. Jon beats up a group of peasant boys because he's in a bad mood. Sansa thinks in her head that Arya being a bastard would be easier, makes one classist comment in retaliation to  sexist comment of Jon and voices she doesn't want to be bastard for a good reason, and suddenly you cry foul? How about you hold other characters to the same standard you have for Sansa. 

What sexist comment did Jon make? We can discuss Sansa's flaws without naming every other characters flaws because we are discussing Sansa right now. I guarantee you in a discussion about Arya or Jon or Whoever else Hugor would bring up their flaws as well, as would I. Well except Jon's because he is perfect. 

:lmao:

Just kidding! Seriously though I do know where you are coming from because I do have a hard time admitting Jon did anything wrong. It's because I understand him, I feel for him, I can put myself in his position. Which I imagine is the case with you & Sansa. We become so connected to these characters that it is hard not to have an emotional reaction to someone criticizing them. 

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@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I am not saying Sansa was NEVER mean, I just don't think there was any evidence Sansa was mean BEFORE the Darry Incident. After that Sansa is definitely mean, particularly in her third chapter. She definitely goes too far in that. All I am saying is that it took several steps before Sansa went off on Arya. She saids those thing after the stress she's dealing with her betrothal, after the trauma she deals with after Lady's death, after Arya throws a fruit in her face and ruins her dress. None of these are excuses, of course, I am only explaining it. I do want Sansa to apologize when she meets Arya in ADOS. 

I mean the "Poor Jon, he's jealous because he's a bastard," comment came only after Arya says "Jon says Joffrey looks like a girl". That is a sexist comment. There's nothing wrong with a guy, especially a thirteen year old, having feminine features. I only brought this up because Sansa's comment IS classist. 

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

No. Lol. Catelyn comforted Sansa, and told her Arya was trueborn which boggled Sansas mind. 

If only Arya was more like Myrcella and lovable, maybe shes a bastard like Jon? Then she wont have to honor her sister.

Fucking disgusting. Theres certainly a different standard for Sansa.

For me that's just petty stuff, you do, when you really don't get along with you sibling. I find it relatable. They really, really dislike each other. Sansa is more of a drama queen sometimes. But Arya also calls everything that reminds her of Sansa, or what sansa used to like or do stupid, in a pretty condescending way, like she believes that Sansa is actually stupid herself. That's just like kids are. And all of the nobility are classists. Even the Hound f.e. is classist and condescending towards the smallfolk and peasants. But is probably not a good example anyway.

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1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I am saying Sansa wasn't EVER mean, I just don't there was any evidence Sansa was mean BEFORE the Darry Incident. After that Sansa is definitely mean, particularly in her third chapter. She definitely goes too far in that. All I am saying is that it took several steps before Sansa went off on Arya. She saids those thing after the stress she's dealing with her betrothal, after the trauma she deals with after Lady's death, after Arya throws a fruit in her face and ruins her dress. None of these are excuses, of course, I am only explaining it. I do want Sansa to apologize when she meets Arya in ADOS. 

I was thinking of Arya recollecting about Jeyne & Sansa kind of excluding her & calling her Arya-horseface. 

They are sisters, they were most definitely mean to each other at plenty of points in their lives. I think they will be just fine whether or not either apologizes because they are sisters & because they have both been through so much I doubt being called Arya-horseface or having a dress ruined will still feel like major things. 

Sansa was a little flighty & shallow. Arya was a little stubborn & bratty. Sansa has grown & matured into a potentially major player & she sure isn't flighty anymore. Arya has grown into a potentially world class assassin & while she is still stubborn, she isn't so bratty. 

One of my favorite things about these books is getting to see the characters evolve & grow into their own person. I really hope that Arya let's go of her vengeance for her own sake (after she kills the Freys of course) :devil: but I'll be ok with her remaining a killer because I understand how she got there. 

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Let me make it explicitly clear I have absolutely no issue with any of the Stark children displaying some sexism and classim. They are children and there's a huge room for them to grow. In Jon's case, he's by far one of the least sexist male characters in ASOIAF, he's right have Samwell imo, but that doesn't mean he doesn't display some of it and I am not that bothered with it, because I know GRRM is setting him up to unlearn it just as Sansa is unlearning classism. The only reason why I am bringing it up is because I want to hold a mirror to some fans so that they realize they are holding Sansa to an unfair standard that no other character gets. Jon is my second fave after Sansa. In no way would I hate him. 

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7 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I am not saying Sansa was NEVER mean, I just don't think there was any evidence Sansa was mean BEFORE the Darry Incident. After that Sansa is definitely mean, particularly in her third chapter. She definitely goes too far in that. All I am saying is that it took several steps before Sansa went off on Arya. She saids those thing after the stress she's dealing with her betrothal, after the trauma she deals with after Lady's death, after Arya throws a fruit in her face and ruins her dress. None of these are excuses, of course, I am only explaining it. I do want Sansa to apologize when she meets Arya in ADOS. 

Arya Horseface was before Darry. I think that was just typical sibling meanness and have no doubt Arya had names to throw back, as siblings do. But ot was still mean. But then, most children are to a certain degree

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