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Nagini's Neville

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23 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She did not consent to the marriage. She was forced. Even if she did consent, she would have been in no position to consent, since she was an abused hostage. He let her undress at her obvious distress and fear, got undressed himself and groped her breast. That is sexual assault.

(Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.[1] It is a form of sexual violence, which includes rape (forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), gropingchild sexual abuse or the torture of the person in a sexual manner. 

Child sexual abuse, also called child molestation, is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation.[1][2] Forms of child sexual abuse include engaging in sexual activities with a child (whether by asking or pressuring, or by other means), indecent exposure (of the genitals, female nipples, etc.), child groomingchild sexual exploitation[3][4][5] or using a child to produce  child pornography.)

Not to be a jerk and maybe I misunderstand (then my apologies), but it's kinda upsetting to me, if we have to debate in 2020 still about what sexual assault is.

And please let's not pretend like Tyrion couldn't have said no to the marriage, if he truly wanted to. Especially when we know, that Tyrion is definitely capable of disobeying his father, if he truly wants to or have you forgotten Shae? Even right before Sansa and Tyrion are to be married he tells her she should just say the word, if she wanted to marry Lancel instead. Does this suggests, that he thinks he couldn't have said no? 

But my issue is not that he married her. Sure if he was a truly good person he wouldn't have permanently imprisoned her with the family, who murdered hers, especially since he swore an oath to her mother to send her back.(but I guess Tywin really did that so it's not necessarily Tyrion's fault) But this marriage is first and foremost an act of war, their families are at war and of course in it to win it- I get it.

So I have understanding for marrying her. What I do not have understanding for is letting her get naked, getting naked himself and touching her (basically planing to consummate the marriage), when he knew this would be cruel for her, he knew she was a child, he knew she was afraid (she even told him with words) and he knew she could not consent to the marriage via being a hostage therefore did not consent to sex. She cried during the wedding ceremony 

 

 

Tyrion and Sansa's wedding night, while brilliantly written, was horrific to read.  Tyrion is emotionally and sexually attracted to his 12-year-old hostage bride; and he doesn't understand that Sansa is absolutely unready to reciprocate, especially when he makes her undress and exposes his own body.  Tyrion wants Sansa to be his Tysha do-over; Sansa is a helpless maiden who he can save from danger and marry and have sex with - especially since, unlike Tysha, she is socially acceptable as the last (known) Stark, descendant of a high House of the First Men and also the key to Winterfell. 

What I don't understand is why Tyrion insisted on groping naked Sansa and exposing himself to her so soon.  His best chance of getting Sansa to accept him as a sexual partner and have the son that Tywin demanded was a slow seduction, beginning with a quiet and comforting (no sex) wedding night and offering Sansa comfort and waiting until she was 14 or more before he began to broach the idea of a sexual relationship with some gentle touches at night, in bed, in the dark.  Which is still creepy, but considering that Tywin was fully capable of coercing another Lannister (Lancel) to rape Sansa to produce the desired child, Tyrion successfully but slowly succeeding in having sex with a not unwilling Sansa would have been less traumatic for her.  But Tyrion was self-aware enough to realize that a young highborn girl might be repulsed by the sight of her dwarf bridegroom's naked body, especially if the young girl was his family's captive.  

The worst part of the wedding night is when Tyrion looks at Sansa's naked body and says (approximate quote) "you're a child but I desire you".  Total ICK factor going on there!

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On 1/6/2020 at 2:32 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

What really surprises me is all the love for Jorah. Especially by all of the Dany fans, because I think he could play/could have already played a major role in her downfall. And yeah he's a major creep

He will make sure her future enemies suffer a downfall.  He has sinned but I can forgive him if he can help defeat the slave masters and support Dany build her empire.  I too like Jorah and will put him in my top 10.  Dany has an awesome entourage.  

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I prefer people with interesting story lines.  Brienne is a good person but I'm not entertained by her POVs.  Brienne the beauty ain't makin' my list.  They don't have to be POV to be entertaining.  

  1. Daenerys
  2. Barristan
  3. Samwell
  4. Cersei
  5. Jorah
  6. Catelyn
  7. Viserys
  8. Rhaenyra
  9. Visenya
  10. Doran

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1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

What I don't understand is why Tyrion insisted on groping naked Sansa and exposing himself to her so soon.  His best chance of getting Sansa to accept him as a sexual partner and have the son that Tywin demanded was a slow seduction, beginning with a quiet and comforting (no sex) wedding night and offering Sansa comfort and waiting until she was 14 or more before he began to broach the idea of a sexual relationship with some gentle touches at night, in bed, in the dark.  Which is still creepy, but considering that Tywin was fully capable of coercing another Lannister (Lancel) to rape Sansa to produce the desired child, Tyrion successfully but slowly succeeding in having sex with a not unwilling Sansa would have been less traumatic for her.  But Tyrion was self-aware enough to realize that a young highborn girl might be repulsed by the sight of her dwarf bridegroom's naked body, especially if the young girl was his family's captive.  

The worst part of the wedding night is when Tyrion looks at Sansa's naked body and says (approximate quote) "you're a child but I desire you".  Total ICK factor going on there!

Yes to all of this. Tbh it is really hard to read without feeling physically sick.

Why he does it that way I will just never understand. So much, that he demands from her in just one night, when she has only in the morning heard she has to marry him. 

The thing is Tyrion does empathises with Sansa and her situation. He says himself: this is cruel to her and thinks: she will never find me attractive.

But what he also thinks and says, what others often fail to see or don't really care about (Cersei and Tywin) is that she is still a child, but then it is almost as if he doesn't care about it AT ALL, but than he does care weirdly enough to always mention it.

I don't understand why he didn't even try to make it easier for her on that particular night, if he already had planned to rape her. But not even that courtesy he could give to her, after giving him an opening, by being honest and telling him she was afraid. It when from "you are a child, but I want you" (just deal with it, I guess or why even telling her?) Say something nice and reassuring to me, before I rape you. Now lay down, this our duty (emotional manipulation)

It's just so gross to me.

You are right he had his chance and he blew it. He could have really protected her and been good to her, but instead he does something like this, it would have been manipulation and not consensual as well in the end, but it would have been far less traumatic and his chances for love and acceptance would have been much greater.

Also getting a girl pregnant at 12-13 is not good and save for child and mother. the body is not developed enough yet.

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4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I mean, I dont want you get the wrong idea, Im shallow as fuck lol. I do care about looks. (I know I know, it is what it is lol) Its not all that matters of course. And luckily Ive found the more time I spend with someone the more attractive they get, but, I am shallow lol. I do think about such stuff

When it comes to tv, idk, I like eye candy. But yea its not everything if they cant act its no good.

Well that's actually like most people are. So don't even get, why it's even such a point of discussion with Sansa again and again and again, but when one GOT actress is not as hot as imagined, they have to moan about it for pages and pages and those are adults.

Why bothers it people so much, that little Sansa is into pretty boys? Of course I think she would like to get to know Loras' character better, if he'd let her. And I'm sure, she'd like him better with every hour :)  

But lets not pretend that, most people even approach people, they don't find attractive to get to know them better.

So what's the issue with Sansa doing it? If it is such a normal, human thing

Does ist remind ppl of their own weakness, that they dislike?

Or is it for some reason more offensive, when the young beautiful girl does it? Whats offensive about the young beautiful girl getting the young beautiful man?

I'm just asking, because tbh I see this trend a lot and you said before Sansa was not deserving of someone beautiful, but also paired her up with Tyrion. Who is even less deserving.

 

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6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What sexist comment did Jon make? We can discuss Sansa's flaws without naming every other characters flaws because we are discussing Sansa right now. I guarantee you in a discussion about Arya or Jon or Whoever else Hugor would bring up their flaws as well, as would I. Well except Jon's because he is perfect

:fencing:

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think that's fair. I'm a Sansa fan & have a similar view. Arya is my #1 favorite character but I'm quite aware of her flaws also. 

Sansa was shallow. She was a little bullyish to Arya. I was a little the same to my younger sister. You can be a fan & still understand her faults. 

I always felt, that they both weren't very nice to each other equally. But Sansa was always "right" always the "favorite". the perfect one. She had all the back-up basically. Cat and Septa and all the men already called her a Lady, which of course is praise. Arya wasn't jealous over nothing. And she also had friends, who called Arya horse face (and Sansa did too)

So I think that's a lot of where the imbalance comes from. And than of course Sansa has this one awful chapter with the blood orange,  right after Mycah's and Lady's death, for which a lot of readers won't ever forgive her for. And than Arya also gets the talk with ned, that Sansa doesn't get, afterwards she tries to be nice to Sansa, but Sansa is still in a different mind-set. Also so weird, that Ned thought this could work, if he has the talk with only one sister.

I know a lot of people always say Ned and Cat did nothing wrong with child-rearing, but regardless of that a little bit right and good education from her parents, would have been really good for Sansa.

Because we can see actually already in AGOT- in the moment with the Hound, that she has a good heart and is capable of empathy, with the most ungallant and unattractive people. And I don't think, that she already had some form of chemistry with him here, that set him apart from the rest. Then when she is in all alone in KL she also learns quickly. So IMO her parents should have been a bit stricter to her. And really ask themselves, how is our girl behaving and what does she need out there in this world, does she need prejudice and fairytales? Or does she need a strong connection with her siblings and should she be a bit more grounded in reality (she shouldn't have to give up the songs completely- they are a big part of her and how she copes). And if she doesn't have that, what's the problem? Jon not being accepted by Cat made things not easy imo. Tbh I also wouldn't know, how to act and what to think, when my mother doesn't accept this child, that is causing hurt and pain, but is also actually my brother. Imo Sansa subconsciously sided with her mother over this issue. She was also the one she spend the most time with. To build a good and strong relationship, with Arya imo Cat would have had to accept Jon, since Jon and Arya are so close. But yeah well I sometimes just wish Sansa could have been "humbled" by her parents and not by being beaten up at court.

But then I also can't see Sansa and her crew truly longterm bulling Arya and if it's just because Arya is not the type that let's herself be bullied. If Sansa annoys her to much, she just beats her a bit. that will ruin Sansa's clothes and hair and she'll stop LOL

Also what I think is important, that in early Arya's povs she is resentful, because sansa has everything and is capable of everything and is perfect as a lady, everyone is praising her, she is a snob, who doesn't call Jon brother and her friends are snobs, that bull her and it sounds like sansa is just allowing this. This impression gets later confirmed at the Trident incident.

While Sansa mostly thinks Arya is "ruining" everything- lol how sympathetic  

Sansa basically constantly wants Arya to change and stop the ruining everything. The reader has zero sympathy for that, because 1. they like Arya the way she is 2. they don't think she needs to change.

So they agree with Arya, when she calls Sansa stupid, or anything that has to do with her, which she actually does quite a lot.

But Sansa's wish and expectation for Arya to change, is of course reflective of the overall consensus, that everyone is waiting for Arya to change (especially Cat and Septa) and she has to change. The way she is right now "is not okay". So while Arya seems like a dope girl in our world and to the reader, in ASOIAF she is the odd one out. Sansa has been taught that she's is doing everything right and Arya needs to change, for the two of them to have a relationship (in Sansa's mind ) 

Quote

"Sansa’s needlework was exquisite. Everyone said so. “Sansa’s work is as pretty as she is,” Septa Mordane told their lady mother once. “She has such fine, delicate hands.” When Lady Catelyn had asked about Arya, the septa had sniffed. “Arya has the hands of a blacksmith.”"

I feel like that kind of stuff would drive any two sisters apart.

Quote

"It wasn’t fair. Sansa had everything. Sansa was two years older; maybe by the time Arya had been born, there had been nothing left. Often it felt that way. Sansa could sew and dance and sing. She wrote poetry. She knew how to dress. She played the high harp and the bells. Worse, she was beautiful."

Ayra's jealousy of Sansa here is also interesting to me. Because what is Arya really jealous of here? Dressing nicely and playing the high harp? That's not Arya. That has nothing to do with her. Why would she want that?  What she is really jealous of is the praise and love, that comes with being successful those skills. Not being constantly scolded for failing. It's actually really sad.

So while I think, it was harder for Arya to grow up with a sister like Sansa to be constantly compared to, in the end they both just fell victim to the same gender-bias-system during their time in WF. ( not saying Sansa was a victim here, just both were affected and their relationship suffered because of it.

It's so interesting, what readers are effected by. For me for example "horseface" isn't as bad as, when Arya calls Sansa stupid or her dreams and the things she likes stupid. I was called stupid as a kid as well a lot and it defiantly affected my self- esteem. It's of course especially sad later on, because of Cersei and Joffery calling her stupid constantly, while abusing her, in Kl to the point, where I believe it really effects her self-esteem and she might really believe she is stupid at times, she even says so to herself and Dontos. Even the Hound calls her stupid - there is definitely a theme going on.

In Arya's thoughts all of WF called her apparently Arya Horseface. Even Reek recalls that name repeatedly.

Interesting parallel, that they both get insulted for what ppl apparently superficially think of as their flaws. Sansa being dumb and Ayra apparently not stereotypically beautiful.

Sansa is not so stupid after, maybe she'll get incredible smart and Arya turns into a major beauty? A second Lyanna?

But then who cares? I definitely don't care about characters looks. But of course-it could play a role. Who knows?

 

It's a bit to all over the place. Need to edit that later :)

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

There isn't anything you wrote that I disagree with, I just want to add some thoughts. 

I think where (at least some) of the difference of opinions come from is that it is hard to liken Tyrion to a sexual abuser when he is also a likeable (to some) guy. People feel sympathetic towards him & his plight. He is hated by his father & sister for something totally out of his control & often does not get the credit he deserves. The love of his life was cruelly taken from him & if we are being honest it was a rare thing that she fell in love with him to begin with so he doesn't have a high chance of finding someone else. Couple that with the mysogynistic society & you have a ready made argument for Tyrion fans to justify him with. 

At the end of the day though, while all of that is true, it doesn't matter one, single, little, teeny, weeny, iota in this case. You don't get a pass to abuse other people, especially children, because you have been abused or because you had a rough life. 

I am a Tyrion fan & it was hard for me to reconcile this in my mind. I only remembered (probably purposefully so, on a subconscious level)  that he tried to be kind, that he argued some about marrying her & did not consummate the marriage. I only wanted to think about the things that he did that were on par with who I wanted him to be. I didn't even realize until coming to this forum that it was even argued that he sexually abused her. After re-reading that passage a few times I was heart broken. Heart broken for Sansa & myself because I had to face the reality that he did indeed sexually assault a little girl. He had reasons, sure. He isn't just a sadistic rapist. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter to Sansa what his reasons were or if she is only his ever victim, because she is his victim. Not his alone - there are other culprits involved here but the buck stopped with him & he was the one that had the power to NOT sexually abuse her, not to mention that he seems to have more empathy than the rest of them so he was also the one that should have been most aware of the damage that he was subjecting her to & chose differently. 

I really, truly wish he would have drank him self into a stupor & realized even at that point he could not subject this little girl to the things he was expected to do to her. I could forgive him for marrying her & I think the argument can be made that while he could have outright refused, he probably should have been pretty scared of the consequences from Tywin. At any rate I could have gotten over the forced marriage IF he had stood his ground where the consummation came in. 

It is creepy to have him say he wanted her. He knows she is a child & I'm honestly really frustrated with GRRM for writing that part. I think it was a mistake - he shouldn't have included that even if he was going to have Tyrion assault her because now, not only has he sexually abused this child but also he is a pedophile that finds pleasure in children. That isn't something we saw from him before or since & I personally don't think it fits into his character. Of course, anything can happen but it is my opinion that part of the dialogue does not fit with Tyrion. 

Oh what a great post! This is the kind of post, in hope to find I joined the forum for tbh :D I totally understand your dilemma. Tyrion is such an interesting character. And I think most people totally understand Tyrion's likability. I'll need to respond more in detail . So much still to say. Also sorry, I somehow thought I had posted that already.

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8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I always felt, that they both weren't very nice to each other equally. But Sansa was always "right" always the "favorite". the perfect one. She had all the back-up basically. Cat and Septa and all the men already called her a Lady, which of course is praise. Arya wasn't jealous over nothing. And she also had friends, who called Arya horse face (and Sansa did too)

 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I always felt, that they both weren't very nice to each other equally. But Sansa was always "right" always the "favorite". the perfect one. She had all the back-up basically. Cat and Septa and all the men already called her a Lady, which of course is praise. Arya wasn't jealous over nothing. And she also had friends, who called Arya horse face (and Sansa did too)

So I think that's a lot of where the imbalance comes from. And than of course Sansa has this one awful chapter with the blood orange,  right after Mycah's and Lady's death, for which a lot of readers won't ever forgive her for. And than Arya also gets the talk with ned, that Sansa doesn't get, afterwards she tries to be nice to Sansa, but Sansa is still in a different mind-set. Also so weird, that Ned thought this could work, if he has the talk with only one sister.

I know a lot of people always say Ned and Cat did nothing wrong with child-rearing, but regardless of that a little bit right and good education from her parents, would have been really good for Sansa.

Because we can see actually already in AGOT- in the moment with the Hound, that she has a good heart and is capable of empathy, with the most ungallant and unattractive people. And I don't think, that she already had some form of chemistry with him here, that set him apart from the rest. Then when she is in all alone in KL she also learns quickly. So IMO her parents should have been a bit stricter to her. And really ask themselves, how is our girl behaving and what does she need out there in this world, does she need prejudice and fairytales? Or does she need a strong connection with her siblings and should she be a bit more grounded in reality (she shouldn't have to give up the songs completely- they are a big part of her and how she copes). And if she doesn't have that, what's the problem? Jon not being accepted by Cat made things not easy imo. Tbh I also wouldn't know, how to act and what to think, when my mother doesn't accept this child, that is causing hurt and pain, but is also actually my brother. Imo Sansa subconsciously sided with her mother over this issue. She was also the one she spend the most time with. To build a good and strong relationship, with Arya imo Cat would have had to accept Jon, since Jon and Arya are so close. But yeah well I sometimes just wish Sansa could have been "humbled" by her parents and not by being beaten up at court.

But then I also can't see Sansa and her crew truly longterm bulling Arya and if it's just because Arya is not the type that let's herself be bullied. If Sansa annoys her to much, she just beats her a bit. that will ruin Sansa's clothes and hair and she'll stop LOL

Also what I think is important, that in early Arya's povs she is resentful, because sansa has everything and is capable of everything and is perfect as a lady, everyone is praising her, she is a snob, who doesn't call Jon brother and her friends are snobs, that bull her and it sounds like sansa is just allowing this. This impression gets later confirmed at the Trident incident.

While Sansa mostly thinks Arya is "ruining" everything- lol how sympathetic  

Sansa basically constantly wants Arya to change and stop the ruining everything. The reader has zero sympathy for that, because 1. they like Arya the way she is 2. they don't think she needs to change.

So they agree with Arya, when she calls Sansa stupid, or anything that has to do with her, which she actually does quite a lot.

But Sansa's wish and expectation for Arya to change, is of course reflective of the overall consensus, that everyone is waiting for Arya to change (especially Cat and Septa) and she has to change. The way she is right now "is not okay". So while Arya seems like a dope girl in our world and to the reader, in ASOIAF she is the odd one out. Sansa has been taught that she's is doing everything right and Arya needs to change, for the two of them to have a relationship (in Sansa's mind ) 

I feel like that kind of stuff would drive any two sisters apart.

Ayra's jealousy of Sansa here is also interesting to me. Because what is Arya really jealous of here? Dressing nicely and playing the high harp? That's not Arya. That has nothing to do with her. Why would she want that?  What she is really jealous of is the praise and love, that comes with being successful those skills. Not being constantly scolded for failing. It's actually really sad.

So while I think, it was harder for Arya to grow up with a sister like Sansa to be constantly compared to, in the end they both just fell victim to the same gender-bias-system during their time in WF. ( not saying Sansa was a victim here, just both were affected and their relationship suffered because of it.

It's so interesting, what readers are effected by. For me for example "horseface" isn't as bad as, when Arya calls Sansa stupid or her dreams and the things she likes stupid. I was called stupid as a kid as well a lot and it defiantly affected my self- esteem. It's of course especially sad later on, because of Cersei and Joffery calling her stupid constantly, while abusing her, in Kl to the point, where I believe it really effects her self-esteem and she might really believe she is stupid at times, she even says so to herself and Dontos. Even the Hound calls her stupid - there is definitely a theme going on.

In Arya's thoughts all of WF called her apparently Arya Horseface. Even Reek recalls that name repeatedly.

Interesting parallel, that they both get insulted for what ppl apparently superficially think of as their flaws. Sansa being dumb and Ayra apparently not stereotypically beautiful.

Sansa is not so stupid after, maybe she'll get incredible smart and Arya turns into a major beauty? A second Lyanna?

But then who cares? I definitely don't care about characters looks. But of course-it could play a role. Who knows?

 

It's a bit to all over the place. Need to edit that later :)

For sure, Arya & Sansa both had their moments but as per usual the majority of the discourse is born from the parents & people in authority rather than from the siblings themselves. 

Not to say I think Ned & Cat were horrible parents, I don't. But they made mistakes just like any other parent does & I don't think they were made maliciously. Ned could have done wonders for himself & Sansa if he had talked to her like he did Arya. I think maybe the reason he didn't is because he recognizes that Arya is already in-tune with some of the darker things in life & Sansa, at this point is not. It's not unreasonable to not want to scare your child or subject her to fears that are out of her control. Nonetheless, in hindsight he definitely should have. 

Sansa is smart & has a great heart. I think she gets looked over by her parents because she is the good one, if that makes sense? The squeaky wheel gets the grease right? Sansa obeys, does what she is told, & is good at everything a high born lady should be good at. Cat & Ned have overlooked her because of that. Arya is a bit wild, she is stubborn, she doesn't obey, she gets dirty & fights with the boys so it draws her parents attention. 

Cat not accepting Jon is exactly why Sansa feels a disconnect from him. Cat is her mother, her #1 role model. Cat acts as if Jon is something to be looked down upon, ignored, or despised so naturally Sansa follows suit. Not to say Sansa is the same to Jon as Cat is, only that she gets her feelings about Jon directly from Cat. 

I wish her parents would have taught her the lessons she needed prior to court also. I cannot even imagine how traumatic what happened in KL was, for both girls, but especially for Sansa who believes things are mostly good & right in the world. As I said Arya was already in tune with some of the rougher sides of life so it wasn't such a shock to her. It definitely took it's toll on Arya but I think she was better equipped to deal with it because she, at the very least, knew some of the bad things existed. 

Sansa would not have long-term bullied Arya. Even if she wanted to, & I don't think she would have, kids grown up & mature & stop annoying & picking on each other. But even if she wanted to, like you said, Arya is not the type to be bullied. 

You are spot on about Arya. She didn't want to be Sansa or do the things Sansa was doing she wanted the praise & encouragement Sansa was getting. That is a failure on the part of the people in authority. This is precisely what I mean when I said the majority of the discourse is born from the parents & not the siblings. I don't believe they did it on purpose but it happened. Arya is then resentful & she already enjoys doing the things Sansa abhors so she takes it to the next level & annoys Sansa to death with it purposefully, that reaffirms for Sansa that Arya "ruins everything" & encourages her own attitude toward Arya which feeds Arya's want to annoy her & around & around we go. 

Absolutely, Arya needs to change for her & Sansa to have a relationship in Sansa's mind. Not only just in Sansa's mind either. In Cats, Septa Mordanes, & the entire society. Arya isn't an acceptable girl in universe. Oddly enough she is pretty readily accepted by the males in her life & even accepted as a boy when she is pretending to be one. They can relate to her. 

It's very interesting to me that while Arya has suffered her fair share of tragedies the males in her life have been pretty good to her. They don't try to sexually assault her, most of them don't beat her (Some do). The Hound is a dick but he like with Sansa he has his moments & he doesn't have the sexual attraction to Arya or what ever it is that he has to Sansa. Ned was a good role-model, she is close with Jon & Bran IIRC, Syrio is good to her, Jaqen is good to her, the Kindly man is good to her, Brusco is good to her, Jory (or was it Yoren?) Spanks her at one point but he also saves her from KL.  Even Roose Bolton isn't so bad to her given the circumstances. In contrast almost every single male Sansa comes in contact with is either separated from her in some form (She doesn't really connect with Jon, she loves Ned & he loves her but they don't have the relationship & conversations like with Arya) Then the hound, Ilyn Payne scares her, Robert is loud & drunk & scares her, Joffrey is a prick, Dontos is nice but a little creepy & is a drunken sot, Tyrion, Little Finger, Marillion - even some of the younger men she meets - Sweet Robin is mentally & physically ill, Harry the heir is a womanzier. I don't know if there is a such thing as causing someone to turn gay but for god's sake if I had the experiences with men she did I might consider it. 

It is interesting what affects readers. I, personally, would be more affected by someone calling me horse-face than stupid as a little girl. I'm not sure why that is exactly other than maybe because I always got good grades, school came fairly easy to me, my parents always told me how smart I am etc on the other side I'm not hideous or anything & in my younger days I was quite cute if I say so myself, I had some bad relationships that led me to believe I wasn't worthy - looks wise- of someone being good to me. Thankfully I got past that. I think another thing that may affect me feeling worse about being called horse-face is that not only did I know I wasn't stupid but I also know that "stupid" can be changed. I can learn more stuff, I can work harder at what I'm doing while I cannot do anything to change how I look. Well, you know you can do small things; put on make-up, dress nice, do your hair but barring plastic surgery that I couldn't afford & wouldn't trust I'm stuck with the face I have, horse face or no. 

I never thought of it like that but I like it. Sansa grows up & has people recognize how smart she is - she was always smart but having it validated by others does something for the self-esteem & Arya grows up to be a beauty. Like you said - not that it matters but it's fitting for the story & I would like to see it happen. 

 

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20 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That’s a time warp for a simple mind like Gilly.  I wonder if Aemon is still on that boat.  The second miracle might buy his resurrection.

I think Gilly must have gotten off the ship sometime.

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Cat acts as if Jon is something to be looked down upon, ignored, or despised so naturally Sansa follows suit.

I don't recall any text showing that Sansa despises Jon. She doesn't grant him equality with her siblings who are true-born, but then nobody grants bastards equality with the true-born.

She thinks of him as "only her half-brother", but that doesn't necessarily equate to looking down on him or despising him. The "only" is because his status is definitely not equal and as far as Sansa knows, Jon actually is her half-brother. So she really is simply seeing him truthfully, as far as she knows.

It's even hard to be sure that Sansa constantly ignored him. Granted, we see no interaction between Sansa and Jon, but there are lots of things that we don't see, which doesn't mean they don't happen (for example, we don't get a description of every meal consumed, yet we know that people mostly eat regularly). Their interests are vastly different (also those interests don't intersect at all) which is just as valid an explanation for the lack of interactions between them.

When Jon has a memory of Sansa brushing her direwolf and singing, it's not a bitter memory. Likewise, when eventually she draws inspiration from him about how to live as a bastard, she doesn't have to first overcome hard feelings toward him in order to do that. She just does it.

Of course, Cat's attitude to Jon is far more complicated. In a very real way, I think Cat's negativity toward Jon is not personal at all. She's offended by his presence, because it's a very public humiliation for her. It has much more to do with her than with Jon, though; she projects onto him her own anger at her husband for putting her in this position.

Except for that one time (and granted, that was a whopper), she doesn't actually punish him for his existence. She's cold to him and tries to not interact with him except where strictly necessary, and then only grudgingly. That's unpleasant, but hardly abusive (in terms of the culture she lives in, that is. I am not endorsing such behavior in real life).

 

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10 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I don't recall any text showing that Sansa despises Jon. She doesn't grant him equality with her siblings who are true-born, but then nobody grants bastards equality with the true-born.

Right, that's why I said after this sentence that Sansa doesn't treat him the way Cat does but gets her lead from Cat. Some people don't care about someone being bastards. Arya doesn't care, the wildlings don't seem to care, The NW doesn't care. But yeah, a lot of nobility don't put bastards on the same level as true-borns. 

11 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

She thinks of him as "only her half-brother", but that doesn't necessarily equate to looking down on him or despising him. The "only" is because his status is definitely not equal and as far as Sansa knows, Jon actually is her half-brother. So she really is simply seeing him truthfully, as far as she knows.

Again, I wasn't saying Sansa despises him. I was saying it really is no wonder she separates herself from him because Cat does & she is Sansa's role model. I do think she looks down on him & she distances herself from him. His status isn't equal to what? I understand she believes he is truly, her half-brother but this part of the snobbish attitude Sansa has. The truth isn't always nice & polite, nor does it always need to be said. My point is just because it is the truth doesn't mean she isn't being a little snobbish to point it out or to think of him as less than her or her full-blooded siblings. 

14 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

t's even hard to be sure that Sansa constantly ignored him. Granted, we see no interaction between Sansa and Jon, but there are lots of things that we don't see, which doesn't mean they don't happen (for example, we don't get a description of every meal consumed, yet we know that people mostly eat regularly). Their interests are vastly different (also those interests don't intersect at all) which is just as valid an explanation for the lack of interactions between them.

Well, yeah. I never said she constantly ignored him either. They aren't close. That much is clear. How much of that is due to them being so different & how much of that is due to Sansa separating herself from him because he is a bastard? I don't know. Some, even could be because he steers clear of her as well. We aren't given enough information to know exactly why they don't interact very much so we use the context clues to make an educated guess. We know Sansa thinks down on him & we know Sansa isn't particularly fond of bastards at all. We also know Cat's feelings toward Jon & that Cat is Sansa's mother. We also know Jon & Sansa are very different people & they don't think of each other often after they are separated. 

17 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

When Jon has a memory of Sansa brushing her direwolf and singing, it's not a bitter memory.

Why would it be a bitter memory? 

18 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Likewise, when eventually she draws inspiration from him about how to live as a bastard, she doesn't have to first overcome hard feelings toward him in order to do that. She just does it.

She struggles a little with being a bastard to begin with which gives us some notion of what she likely thinks about Jon. The text has given us some things to form a general, broad opinion on their relationship. But yes, it's natural for her to try to overcome something she is struggling with by using her closest life experiences to deal with it. 

20 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Of course, Cat's attitude to Jon is far more complicated. In a very real way, I think Cat's negativity toward Jon is not personal at all. She's offended by his presence, because it's a very public humiliation for her. It has much more to do with her than with Jon, though; she projects onto him her own anger at her husband for putting her in this position.

Yeah absolutely. Jon didn't ask to be born or ask to be raised at WF. Cat's frustration is with Ned but because she can't or at least feels she can't take it out on him she takes it out on Jon. 

21 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Except for that one time (and granted, that was a whopper), she doesn't actually punish him for his existence. She's cold to him and tries to not interact with him except where strictly necessary, and then only grudgingly. That's unpleasant, but hardly abusive (in terms of the culture she lives in, that is. I am not endorsing such behavior in real life)

Right, I wouldn't necessarily call it abusive although such things would take an emotional & psychological toll on a child. The only female "mother" figure he has is cold, distant, & tries to avoid him at all costs unless she has something particularly mean to say to him. That is sort of punishing him for his existence. Not physically but if this were real life Jon would have quite the set of mommy issues to deal with. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

it really is no wonder she separates herself from him

I can't think of any evidence of this. On the other hand, it's clear that Arya is Jon's favourite by a long way. If Sansa and Jon are distant (no proof of it), it's likely because Jon and Arya spend a lot of their free time together, doing active, muddy, horsey things, while Sansa is practising her singing or something. There's nothing wrong in this.

Edited by Springwatch
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1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

I can't think of any evidence of this. On the other hand, it's clear that Arya is Jon's favourite by a long way. If Sansa and Jon are distant (no proof of it), it's likely because Jon and Arya spend a lot of their free time together, doing active, muddy, horsey things, while Sansa is practising her singing or something. There's nothing wrong in this.

I stated above my evidence is taken from context clues; the way Sansa says Jon is only her half brother, her apparent feelings towards bastards in general, the fact that we have almost no interaction between them & they almost never think of each other, the way Cat feels toward Jon coupled with the fact that, as Sansa's mother, she is her # 1 role model. They are very different people & have very different interests. They aren't close & I think it's safe to say, given all of this, that Sansa separated herself from Jon. Jon may have separated himself from Sansa also but I didn't say anything was wrong with it (other than the snobbish attitude toward bastards in general) only that this is probably something she got from Cat & her feelings & interactions with Jon. 

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15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Well that's actually like most people are. So don't even get, why it's even such a point of discussion with Sansa again and again and again, but when one GOT actress is not as hot as imagined, they have to moan about it for pages and pages and those are adults.

Woah. Sophie Turner? Natalie Dormer? Emilia Fucking Clarke! 

15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Why bothers it people so much, that little Sansa is into pretty boys? Of course I think she would like to get to know Loras' character better, if he'd let her. And I'm sure, she'd like him better with every hour :)  

No ones bothered by it, at least not me. But people get bothered when she marvels that the pretty knight isnt out to slay the monster. When she gets older she wishes Dontos was handsome, which is totally meaningless. But now she's even older and teases Harry like the best of them.

They'd probably get along but it wouldn't go anywhere. Loras is the type of guy who doesn't think Emilia Clarke is as hot as imaginable 

15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Or is it for some reason more offensive, when the young beautiful girl does it? Whats offensive about the young beautiful girl getting the young beautiful man?

Lol nothing. Go get em gurl. Idk how much that happens in asoiaf, I guess Dany got Darrio lol. But people root for the ugly girl too, like Brienne and Jaime. 

15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm just asking, because tbh I see this trend a lot and you said before Sansa was not deserving of someone beautiful, but also paired her up with Tyrion. Who is even less deserving.

No one deserves that lol. A beautiful lover is not gods right sent from heaven. Sansa and Tyrion deserve the same as any human (except Castelry Rock which Tyrion totally deserves). 

But they are married. That did happen. Its important to honor vows. Doubly with wedding vows.

Now I don't care whos in their bed, Sansa and Tyrion can do whatever they want in their personal life, but politically they are already (or should be) on the same side

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

She thinks of him as "only her half-brother", but that doesn't necessarily equate to looking down on him or despising him. The "only" is because his status is definitely not equal and as far as Sansa knows, Jon actually is her half-brother. So she really is simply seeing him truthfully, as far as she knows.

She calls him only "her half brother". Instead of like, brother. Or you know, Jon. 

Thats pretty messed up.

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32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She calls him only "her half brother". Instead of like, brother. Or you know, Jon. 

Are you kidding? Jon can't stand 'bastard brother'. Catelyn can't stand  'brother'. There's only one choice left. What's a girl to do?

And what makes you think she doesn't call him 'Jon'? The quote doesn't show that at all. Only that she avoids 'bastard'.

Jon's memories of Sansa are all pretty things, cute things - singing, being entranced by the beauty of a winter wonderland, telling Jon how to chat up girls. He doesn't dislike her at all.

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42 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I didn't say anything was wrong with it (other than the snobbish attitude toward bastards in general) only that this is probably something she got from Cat & her feelings & interactions with Jon. 

Jon hates being a bastard. He must be snobbish, therefore.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Jon hates being a bastard. He must be snobbish, therefore.

LOL, Seriously I'm not trying to argue or make anyone angry, only making an observation. It's hard when the slightest thing may set someone to believing I'm hating on Sansa though. I'm not, I'm just telling the truth how I see it. 

Jon hates being a bastard because his life is hard because of his bastardy. 

If I'm ugly & you call me ugly you aren't being a nice person. 

Me hating being ugly is not me not being a nice person 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar
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15 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Are you kidding? Jon can't stand 'bastard brother'. Catelyn can't stand  'brother'. There's only one choice left. What's a girl to do?

I don't recall Catelyn saying she can't stand 'brother'

16 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

And what makes you think she doesn't call him 'Jon'? The quote doesn't show that at all. Only that she avoids 'bastard'.

It doesn't show she avoids bastard then either. I don't think Hugor is suggesting she never calls him Jon, only that she could call him Jon if she doesn't want to refer to him as brother. 

18 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Jon's memories of Sansa are all pretty things, cute things - singing, being entranced by the beauty of a winter wonderland, telling Jon how to chat up girls. He doesn't dislike her at all.

Who says he dislikes her?! It's clear he doesn't have the same connection with her. He specifically says when talking of missing his siblings that he misses even Sansa, who calls him half brother. Doesn't that alone show that he likes her because he misses her but also that they are more distant than the others? 

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4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

LOL, Seriously I'm not trying to argue or make anyone angry, only making an observation. It's hard when the slightest thing may set someone to believing I'm hating on Sansa though. I'm not, I'm just telling the truth how I see it. 

Jon hates being a bastard because his life is hard because of his bastardy. 

No, I'm fine with the debate. It's a societal thing - that's all I'm saying. No-one immune.

What we know about Sansa is she's been practising her courtesy since she was three. But she's not as good as she thinks she is - making a big deal about 'half brother' instead of 'bastard' just shows she's aware of his problem (unlike the younger Starks, who are still innocent).

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