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[Hugorfonics]

21 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Hugorfonics No I meant what I said, Arya doesn't like the thought of being a bastard either, and worse she called Gendry a bastard in his face. 

No one wants to be a bastard, I get that. (BR?) But Arya never seemed to care about the parental stories behind Nan and Weasel, for the same reason Alayne shouldn't. Theyre not real people, its make believe.

Yea Arya can be mean, fortunately Gendry can be forgiving

24 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

. Robb calls Jon a bastard and says he will never inherit Winterfell straight into his face. 

Yea. And I believe traumatic childhood scenes like that caused Robb to marry Jeyne and lose his kingdom. 

26 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

. Jon beats up a group of peasant boys because he's in a bad mood. 

Jon does all sorts of crazy shit

26 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

. Sansa thinks in her head that Arya being a bastard would be easier, 

No, she tells her mom. Possibly Arya too

28 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

, makes one classist comment in retaliation to  sexist comment of Jon and voices she doesn't want to be bastard

Prejudice, not classest. Alayne has no problem being the trueborn of a landless knight

32 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

 doesn't want to be bastard for a good reason, and suddenly you cry foul? 

What was the good reason?

34 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

How about you hold other characters to the same standard you have for Sansa. 

Yo, what character do you want me to shit on? Brienne Dunk Davos and Edmure. Im pretty sure everyother character has outstanding flaws.

23 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Hugorfonics For a Sansa fan you sure have an awful view of her. 

Im a Ramsay fan too lol. I like the bad guys. Not that Sansa is, shes certainly way closer to the good guy spectrum then any of her full siblings (Rickon?) But I dont see her winning with clean hands

25 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

. What gives you the idea Sansa was mean to Arya before the Darry incident? 

She used to hang out with Poole. The one who named her horseface

26 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise Sansa isn't the mean bully of Arya.  

She wasnt great with her

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Elegant Woes said:

Let me make it explicitly clear I have absolutely no issue with any of the Stark children displaying some sexism and classim. They are children and there's a huge room for them to grow. In Jon's case, he's by far one of the least sexist male characters in ASOIAF, he's right have Samwell imo, but that doesn't mean he doesn't display some of it and I am not that bothered with it, because I know GRRM is setting him up to unlearn it just as Sansa is unlearning classism. 

Oh for sure, I didn't think otherwise if this was directed at me. It takes a minute for someone to unlearn what they have had ingrained in them & I'm honestly really amazed that Sansa hasn't turned bitter because her life has been a whirlwind, her dreams shattered & she is sensitive. Or she was, I don't think she will be much any more because unlike some of the other characters she has been taught her lessons repeatedly. It wasn't enough to have her subjected to Sandor for her to learn about knights (not saying it wasn't enough in that she couldn't grasp it after only this lesson, I mean apparently it wasn't enough to GRRM) she has to also be subjected to Joffrey, Tyrion, Marillion, LF, literally every single male that she comes in contact with (after Ned's death) shows her men are scum (I don't think men are scum, just saying what they are showing her) it's no wonder she thinks kindly of Tyrion & Sandor they are the least abusive of the bunch & had their kind moments. She has nothing better to compare it to. 

[Nagini's Neville]

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

No. Lol. Catelyn comforted Sansa, and told her Arya was trueborn which boggled Sansas mind. 

If only Arya was more like Myrcella and lovable, maybe shes a bastard like Jon? Then she wont have to honor her sister.

Fucking disgusting. Theres certainly a different standard for Sansa.

 

Arya thinks about that too at one time. It is actually quite a sad scene, if I remember correctly. Because Jon reassures her she is indeed Cats daughter. But it was quite sad, that it was Jon, who did the comforting and Arya was very hurt and confused. Jon did a really good job and I felt so sad for him  

[Hugorfonics]

34 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Are you serious? Who deserves a good-looking partner than, please?

Lol no one. Jon doesnt deserve Val and the Frog doesnt deserve Dany. Thats not how life should work

34 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

. What is Tyrion gonna do? He is already grown. But still only into beautiful young girls.

Hes totally infatuated with Septa Lemore. 

14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

. And all of the nobility are classists. Even the Hound f.e. is classist and condescending towards the smallfolk and peasants. But is probably not a good example anyway.

All except Arya I think. 

But I reiterate its not about social class, its about prejudice

[chrisdaw]

Jaime and Sansa I find the most interesting arcs.

Cersei and Victarion the most immediately entertaining chapters. Long may they live.

[Elegant Woes]

The evidence of Sansa calling Arya horseface is flimsy at best. In AGOT never does she think of a time where Sansa called her horse face, the only who does that according to Arya is Jeyne. Sure she thinks in ACOK that Sansa did it too, but we also have to keep in mind that Arya thinks this after dealing with a great deal of trauma, so for all we know she might be misremembering it. After all she's an unreliable narrator, all the characters are. Of course this could be all conjecture on my part. ASOIAF is an incomplete story and either of us could be true by the end of it. All we can do at this point is hold our horses when it comes to our opinions 

[Arthur Peres]

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im a Ramsay fan too lol. I like the bad guys. Not that Sansa is, shes certainly way closer to the good guy spectrum then any of her full siblings (Rickon?) But I dont see her winning with clean hands

I don't agree with that.

Sansa is probably the most mean of the Stark kids, she does not get physical on her confrontations, but she is the further one from the bunch. Even Rickon seems to take more part in the kids interactions. Sansa usually blames Arya for her bad days, she also avoided Jon, she completly ignores Mycah's death, not even offering Arya a kind word.

Arya is the kindest one, she does not care about class, birth or whatever, she liked to listen to the comon men Ned sitted with in Winterfell, she played with Bran and Mycah alike, she was very close to Jon, and she was present during Robb's lessons about how to be a lord.

[Nagini's Neville]

58 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa is pretty judgmental of Sandor and in his face too. In her fourth ACOK chapter she says he will burn in hell for all the evil he has done 

Well there she's just honest. That's what he's always demanding of her, right? There he goes 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

When I was a preteen I learned that if I spend enough time with a girl who I have feelings for I see beauty that I didnt before. It continues to happen throughout my life.

Than I'd label you quite mature and special  I definitely wasn't like that. I was actually almost exactly like Sansa LOL - maybe I shouldn't say that here haha. But now I don't care about looks anymore at all. But most people really do all throughout their lives. Just read a bit in show forums- it's pretty scary

Maybe, you'd have a low opinion of my as an 11 year old, but it's just a stage- you grow out of it  

 

[Elegant Woes]

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar Exactly. Sansa could have easily turned bitter and overcome with nihilism, but the fact that she doesn't speaks volume to her character. What was initially her flaw (a belief in songs) she eventually turned into her greatest strength and that is why she's my favorite character. 

[Lollygag]

On Sansa and her view of bastards...

I had a different perspective on the Sansa/Alayne bastard exchange. There's a few things going on here but only part of it is snobbery (remember - Sansa's true-born and high-born status got her Joffrey). Sansa already has an idea of what living in the world without certain protections entail especially as a woman, but with all of the songs and romance going on in Sansa's arc, she mostly wanted that romantic backstory. Note that LF manipulates Sansa with romance and going home, not class status promises. And she gets over the bastard thing in like 2 seconds and comes to enjoy her time as a bastard later on. 

"Alayne is pretty." Sansa hoped she would remember. "But couldn't I be the trueborn daughter of some knight in your service? Perhaps he died gallantly in the battle, and..."

--------------------------------------------------------

Sansa's view of bastards is as complex as how she was raised. On one hand, she lived in a society which taught that bastards were the worst degenerates by their very nature. She knows they aren't treated well, and bastard women get it worse, of course. But she also got a very conflicting message with Jon and how he was raised at Winterfell. 

ASOS Sansa VI

"I never get drunk. Mead only makes me merry. I am on fire." His hand slipped up to her thigh. "And you as well."

"Unhand me. You forget yourself."

"Mercy. I have been singing love songs for hours. My blood is stirred. And yours, I know . . . there's no wench half so lusty as one bastard born. Are you wet for me?" 
 

These are the things told about bastards in Westeros. Note that what Jon's been told of bastards is likely exactly what Sansa has been told. 

"The evil is in his blood," said Robett Glover. "He is a bastard born of rape. A Snow, no matter what the boy king says." 

"All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes." 

They still think me a turncloak. That was a bitter draft to drink, but Jon could not blame them. He was a bastard, after all. Everyone knew that bastards were wanton and treacherous by nature, having been born of lust and deceit. 

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame. 

"The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another," the boy said stubbornly. "Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal . . . Daemon Blackfyre, Bittersteel, even Bloodraven. Lord Rivers was more cunning than the other two, he said, but in the end he would prove himself a traitor, too. The High Septon counseled my father never to put any trust in him, nor in any other bastards, great or small." 

Tyrion laughed. "You're too smart to believe that. The Night's Watch is a midden heap for all the misfits of the realm. I've seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves, and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall, watching for grumkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. The good part is there are no grumkins or snarks, so it's scarcely dangerous work. The bad part is you freeze your balls off, but since you're not allowed to breed anyway, I don't suppose that matters." 
 

------------------

AFFC Alayne II

Up here where the slope was steepest, the steps wound back and forth rather than plunging straight down. Sansa Stark went up the mountain, but Alayne Stone is coming down. It was a strange thought. Coming up, Mya had warned her to keep her eyes on the path ahead, she remembered. "Look up, not down," she said . . . but that was not possible on the descent. I could close my eyes. The mule knows the way, he has no need of me. But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave. 
 

ASOS Sansa IV - Sansa is intrigued with Ellaria and her status, not judgmental. 

As they were crossing the yard, Prince Oberyn of Dorne fell in beside them, his black-haired paramour on his arm. Sansa glanced at the woman curiously. She was baseborn and unwed, and had borne two bastard daughters for the prince, but she did not fear to look even the queen in the eye. Shae had told her that this Ellaria worshiped some Lysene love goddess. "She was almost a whore when he found her, m'lady," her maid confided, "and now she's near a princess." Sansa had never been this close to the Dornishwoman before. She is not truly beautiful, she thought, but something about her draws the eye. 
 

[Nagini's Neville]

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol no one. Jon doesnt deserve Val and the Frog doesnt deserve Dany. Thats not how life should work

Hes totally infatuated with Septa Lemore. 

All except Arya I think. 

But I reiterate its not about social class, its about prejudice

There shouldn't even be conversation about deserving, when it comes to human beings. no one is deserving of anybody, what happens, happens, when there's love then there are always two involved, when not than it's f-ed up again. haha

Yep sure Arya of course not  

[Elegant Woes]

@Hugorfonics Sansa doesn't necessarily has to have a good looking husband, but a non-abusive one who is around her age and doesn't sexually assault her is necessary and none of the men she has encountered so far are up to standard. 

[Hugorfonics]

37 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Cersei and Victarion the most immediately entertaining chapters. Long may they live.

Long may they live!

32 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I don't agree with that.

Sansa is probably the most mean of the Stark kids, she does not get physical on her confrontations, but she is the further one from the bunch. Even Rickon seems to take more part in the kids interactions. Sansa usually blames Arya for her bad days, she also avoided Jon, she completly ignores Mycah's death, not even offering Arya a kind word.

Arya is the kindest one, she does not care about class, birth or whatever, she liked to listen to the comon men Ned sitted with in Winterfell, she played with Bran and Mycah alike, she was very close to Jon, and she was present during Robb's lessons about how to be a lord.

Im totally on board with everything you said. However, Aryas fucking crazy. Like, straight murderer. I have no doubt that when Sansa reenters the game therell be hell to pay, but until then Id say shes at least not a serial killer (nor a cannibal warg/Hodor) 

Quote

"Please," she finished, "you have to let me marry Joffrey, I'll be ever so good a wife to him, you'll see. I'll be a queen just like you, I promise."

 

23 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Than I'd label you quite mature and special  I definitely wasn't like that. I was actually almost exactly like Sansa LOL - maybe I shouldn't say that here haha. But now I don't care about looks anymore at all. But most people really do all throughout their lives. Just read a bit in show forums- it's pretty scary

Maybe, you'd have a low opinion of my as an 11 year old, but it's just a stage- you grow out of it  

 

I mean, I dont want you get the wrong idea, Im shallow as fuck lol. I do care about looks. (I know I know, it is what it is lol) Its not all that matters of course. And luckily Ive found the more time I spend with someone the more attractive they get, but, I am shallow lol. I do think about such stuff

When it comes to tv, idk, I like eye candy. But yea its not everything if they cant act its no good.

15 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

There shouldn't even be conversation about deserving, when it comes to human beings. no one is deserving of anybody, what happens, happens, when there's love then there are always two involved, when not than it's f-ed up again. haha

100% agree

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

On Sansa and her view of bastards...

I had a different perspective on the Sansa/Alayne bastard exchange. There's a few things going on here but only part of it is snobbery (remember - Sansa's true-born and high-born status got her Joffrey). Sansa already has an idea of what living in the world without certain protections entail especially as a woman, but with all of the songs and romance going on in Sansa's arc, she mostly wanted that romantic backstory. Note that LF manipulates Sansa with romance and going home, not class status promises. And she gets over the bastard thing in like 2 seconds and comes to enjoy her time as a bastard later on. 

"Alayne is pretty." Sansa hoped she would remember. "But couldn't I be the trueborn daughter of some knight in your service? Perhaps he died gallantly in the battle, and..."

--------------------------------------------------------

Sansa's view of bastards is as complex as how she was raised. On one hand, she lived in a society which taught that bastards were the worst degenerates by their very nature. She knows they aren't treated well, and bastard women get it worse, of course. But she also got a very conflicting message with Jon and how he was raised at Winterfell. 

ASOS Sansa VI

"I never get drunk. Mead only makes me merry. I am on fire." His hand slipped up to her thigh. "And you as well."

"Unhand me. You forget yourself."

"Mercy. I have been singing love songs for hours. My blood is stirred. And yours, I know . . . there's no wench half so lusty as one bastard born. Are you wet for me?" 
 

These are the things told about bastards in Westeros. Note that what Jon's been told of bastards is likely exactly what Sansa has been told. 

"The evil is in his blood," said Robett Glover. "He is a bastard born of rape. A Snow, no matter what the boy king says." 

"All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes." 

They still think me a turncloak. That was a bitter draft to drink, but Jon could not blame them. He was a bastard, after all. Everyone knew that bastards were wanton and treacherous by nature, having been born of lust and deceit. 

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame. 

"The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another," the boy said stubbornly. "Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal . . . Daemon Blackfyre, Bittersteel, even Bloodraven. Lord Rivers was more cunning than the other two, he said, but in the end he would prove himself a traitor, too. The High Septon counseled my father never to put any trust in him, nor in any other bastards, great or small." 

Tyrion laughed. "You're too smart to believe that. The Night's Watch is a midden heap for all the misfits of the realm. I've seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves, and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall, watching for grumkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. The good part is there are no grumkins or snarks, so it's scarcely dangerous work. The bad part is you freeze your balls off, but since you're not allowed to breed anyway, I don't suppose that matters." 
 

------------------

AFFC Alayne II

Up here where the slope was steepest, the steps wound back and forth rather than plunging straight down. Sansa Stark went up the mountain, but Alayne Stone is coming down. It was a strange thought. Coming up, Mya had warned her to keep her eyes on the path ahead, she remembered. "Look up, not down," she said . . . but that was not possible on the descent. I could close my eyes. The mule knows the way, he has no need of me. But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave. 
 

ASOS Sansa IV - Sansa is intrigued with Ellaria and her status, not judgmental. 

As they were crossing the yard, Prince Oberyn of Dorne fell in beside them, his black-haired paramour on his arm. Sansa glanced at the woman curiously. She was baseborn and unwed, and had borne two bastard daughters for the prince, but she did not fear to look even the queen in the eye. Shae had told her that this Ellaria worshiped some Lysene love goddess. "She was almost a whore when he found her, m'lady," her maid confided, "and now she's near a princess." Sansa had never been this close to the Dornishwoman before. She is not truly beautiful, she thought, but something about her draws the eye. 
 

Thank you! This is amazing! I remember again, that there were so many negative character traits associated with being a bastard, because they are the product of sin and therefore must be sinful themselves and possess all the character traits, that are associated with  that. The same way, they have this "what you see, is what you get"- philosophy. What is on the outside is reflective of the inside. If a girl looks grown up, she must be grown up. If a man is a half an man, he must be hated by the gods, therefore his inside is just as ugly as his physique.

[Springwatch]

'Bastard brave' must be the first positive given to bastards - well done Sansa.

I do believe the young Starks only use the word in its simplest, most literal sense. Arya and Bran both call Jon 'bastard'. Sansa has picked up the bad vibes and calls him 'half-brother'. It's not meant to be mean.

[sweetsunray]

Hmmmm, the order is based on who got me hooked the longest or most of the entire ride, and/or who I'm most eager to read about in tWoW.

1. Arya: from the first to the very last chapter. It's not just her deep desire for justice, not just for herself or her family, but everyone, especially the smallfolk or her spunky tomboyishness that I love. Every chapter of hers reads like a mini dark fairytale. Even some of the darkest chapters at Harrenhal have this typical fairytale quality, sort of like Little Thumb with the cannibalistic giants, or Gretel shoving the witch into the oven to save her brother Hansel... Hey, I was a fan of the Dark Crystal since it came out on VHS. She may hate songs and stories, but she's somehow living them, albeit dark ones. And my heart just aches for the loneliness she feels. A part of me just wants to hug her and hold her close, but she'd probably kick me in the shins for it.

2. Jon Snow: While I liked him when featured in other POVs (Tyrion's, Bran's, Arya's) in aGoT, I required a few chapters of hs own POV to warm to him, especially because his story was almost from the start set away from the first book's big murder and assassination mysteries of KL. But by the time Sam shows up and Jon takes him under his wing in his own POV, his inner character matched that I saw reflected in the other POVs. And then it becomes soon clear his POV is also set in the most important region and events of the story that is to unfold: the Wall and the Others. On top of that I like that nothing can make Jon stray in heart and mind from doing what he and I both believe to be the right thing, even at the risk or peril of his own life.

3. Sansa: she's an utter self centered brat for most of the first book, and those chapters sometimes still infuriate me, but once her eyes are opened to Joffrey, I liked her inner voice most of the time. I don't find her chapters an easy read though, because she has to be so careful about what to say to almost anybody even in the Vale, so much at times it feels stifling and claustrophobic, which is of course how she feels. Maybe that's why I'm eager to read her chapters in tWoW. I want that moment where she can breathe and shout in freedom to the sky without a care. 

4. Ned Stark: his chapters frustrate me in a delicious way. Because of hind-sight I sometimes wish to bang the book on his head at every reread for some of his ill-fated mistakes. But sheesh I love that man. And every time his ghost or whatever shows up or speaks in any of the other POVs, long after he's dead, it sooths the pain of having lost him.

5. Dolorous Edd: his witty, dry gallows humor, and on the right side of aSoIaF history without any discussion needed

6. Bran: I have an on and off relation to Bran's chapters and characterisation even. But darn it, they're evocative and most can be as dark fairytale like as Arya's. And of course his is the sole true magical POV imo. Not truly counting Mel, because we have only one chapter of Mel's POV. The direwolves have been part of his POV since the start, first as pups, but soon as a POV in his POV.  

7. Jaime: never thought at the start I could grow to like this character, let alone enjoy his POVs. That man has gone seven leagues in character growth, even if I do not consider him redeemed yet. I am not even convinced whether he will ever get such a chance, the way Theon has. I actually lean towards him not making it even halfway through tWoW. Nevertheless I thank George for writing him.

8. Stannis: he starts out so broodingly dark at Dragonstone and then dabbles so deeply in sorcery that seems so misguided. And yet exactly because he's the sole political figure who ends up abandoning his lands and castle and takes the call for help by the Wall seriously, I want this underdog to rack up a few more hard earned wins, before his downfall. After helping the NW against Mance, liberating the Glovers' home, I want him to fill that ice lake with Frey bodies and chase the Boltons out of WF for the red wedding and other nastiness.

9. Davos: he ends up in the curiest places, that you otherwise wouldn't get to see and plots you wouldn't otherwise learn about. I also like how he listens, observes and soaks up information.

10. Lady Stoneheart: Cat's POVs were frustrating or heartbreaking, and her story is depressingly tragic. To me Cat's POVs reads almost like a prologue to LS's story. I'm utterly intruiged with how she will execute whatever she has in store for the Riverlands (pun intended) and whether she can pull it off. Equally, I dread for her to come face to face with any of her daughters (for both of them). What I like most about LS is the many contrasting emotions she provokes in me whenever I think of her existence: equal fascination, horror, deep sadness, pity, fear and excitement. She's like a guilty pleasure and yet also the train wreck you don't want to see, but cannot help glancing at from the corner of your eye.

Runners up:

Gendry. I just like that boy.

Sandor, as long as he doesn't go chasing Cleganbowl.

 

[Lollygag]

20 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

'Bastard brave' must be the first positive given to bastards - well done Sansa.

I do believe the young Starks only use the word in its simplest, most literal sense. Arya and Bran both call Jon 'bastard'. Sansa has picked up the bad vibes and calls him 'half-brother'. It's not meant to be mean.

I think bastard brave has its roots in something Maester Luwin said:

AGOT Jon I 

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children." 

Brave sounds like Sansa's personal spin on it, but her descent from the Eyrie sounds just like this - needing to grow up faster. 

 

 

[Elegant Woes]

I always took Sansa's bastard brave as Sansa admiring that trait in Jon. I mean Alayne is based on him, so it's fair to assume that she's projecting what she likes and admires about Jon onto Alayne Stone. 

[Lollygag]

4 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I always took Sansa's bastard brave as Sansa admiring that trait in Jon. I mean Alayne is based on him, so it's fair to assume that she's projecting what she likes and admires about Jon onto Alayne Stone. 

Those aren't mutually exclusive.