Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker, a new thread arises

[Rhom]

I don't know if the script treatment is legit or not... but I like it in the same ways that I liked the videos about the prequel trilogy "What if Episode 1 were good?" that gave subtle changes to the movies that would have improved them greatly.

[Darth Richard II]

34 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

“There is another”

There are shitloads now, all you have to do is tell an old lady you're a Skywalker now.

[Leofric]

2 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

There are shitloads now, all you have to do is tell an old lady you're a Skywalker now.

For all we know, Rey's parents abandoned a child on every planet they visited, Rey just happened to be the one that ran into BB-8 and was brought to the attention of Kylo, Snoke, Luke, Leia and ultimately Palpatine 2.0.   That kid on Canto Bight might be Rey's little brother.

[Darth Richard II]

Now I’m picturing Reys parents as Flanders parents from The Simpsons 

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

There are shitloads now, all you have to do is tell an old lady you're a Skywalker now.

You're leaving out the part where you have to trek to a deserted moisture farm just to bury two sticks of metal.  Not to mention why that old lady would be there in the first place.  She's obviously a witch or demon.

2 hours ago, Leofric said:

For all we know, Rey's parents abandoned a child on every planet they visited, Rey just happened to be the one that ran into BB-8 and was brought to the attention of Kylo, Snoke, Luke, Leia and ultimately Palpatine 2.0. 

Heh, this kinda sounds like the storyline of Guardians 2 with Kurt Russell's Ego.

[Darth Richard II]

The two sticks of metal have to be unrelated to the actual farm though.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

There's a real lack of any sense of urgency or real stakes in AotC, as well. A lot of this is due to the direction and writing, again.

Here is an earlier version of the AOTC script, showing what substance the movie could have had if Lucas hadn't cut as much dialogue as he did. Many scenes would have worked better if this hadn't been done.

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Bail Organa becomes a main supporting character all the sudden in that back half, as if they forgot about him until then, which is funny.

There were a couple of scenes with him and Padmé and Mon Mothma depicting an opposition movement against Palpatine which would eventually grow into the Rebellion, but those were all cut.

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Ian McDiarmid goes way over the top, though, have to say. And boy, those plot holes like how all the clone troopers turned on the Jedi when they heard Order 66, no explanation at all.... (I'm just poking fun at you "plot holes" people).

Not sure that particular thing is a plot hole - they were bred and conditioned to obey orders without question and that they did. However, TCW established that the Kaminoans secretly provided them with bio-tech implants that ensured they would execute the Jedi when given the code phrase 'Execute Order 66'.

The whole mess about who and why ordered the clone army is never properly resolved in either AOTC or ROTS which is a major plot issue in those movies.

Originally the guy ordering the clone army was supposed to be a nonexistent Jedi master named 'Sido-Dyas' (one wonders who he would have been...) whereas Jango Fett was to be hired by a man named Darth Tyranus, giving away his Sith identity (as Yoda and Windu would later remark). The Kaminoans, rather than willing co-conspirators of Sidious and Tyranus, would have been opposed to the Separatists and thus Dooku, not knowing that Jango was working for a guy who happened to be leading the Separatists.

That would indicate that Darth Sidious himself - likely hiding his identy beneath his hood (which always works) ordered the clone army himself.

In the finished movie Lucas complicated this thing with this Sifo-Dyas stuff for which there were then multiple explanations in various later productions, the last of which came in TCW.

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Pacing was better in RotS, for sure. Jar Jar was progressively reduced in prominence from TPM, which was all the good. The Obi-Wan - Anakin fight was pretty epic and all the time Christensen put into practicing and training (per the fight choreographer) shows pretty well. Linda enjoyed watching it and felt it didn't drag for her at all. She notes that it's very much in the mode of Greek tragedy, with someone's hubris striving against a prophecy only to bring it about, and that seems fair.

With there being essentially no dialogue throughout the Anakin-Obi-Wan duel the whole thing is very much devoid of meaning. The OT duels work for the most part as conflict that do matter for the audience because the people do talk to each other while they are trying to kill each other.

We have pretty much the same problem with the TP duel. Darth Maul is just some guy who doesn't speak. Even when Sidious addresses them via hologram he mostly just stands there and one actually thinks Gunray is the guy in charge.

[Darth Richard II]

Eh, is that script confirmed as legit? Cause, internet.

 

[RumHam]

5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Eh, is that script confirmed as legit? Cause, internet.

 

Still waiting for Trevorrow to comment last I heard. as I posted up thread The A.V. Club claims to have independently verified it's real. If so this is a half assed leak. upload the PDF or GTFO. 

[Darth Richard II]

8 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Still waiting for Trevorrow to comment last I heard. as I posted up thread The A.V. Club claims to have independently verified it's real. If so this is a half assed leak. upload the PDF or GTFO. 

Actually, I was referring to the attack of the clones script Varys links to. Should have been more clear there.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Here is an earlier version of the AOTC script, showing what substance the movie could have had if Lucas hadn't cut as much dialogue as he did. Many scenes would have worked better if this hadn't been done.

Is there a summary of what was cut/changed somewhere? I already forced myself to re-watch the movie recently there is no way I'm reading that.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure that particular thing is a plot hole - they were bred and conditioned to obey orders without question and that they did. However, TCW established that the Kaminoans secretly provided them with bio-tech implants that ensured they would execute the Jedi when given the code phrase 'Execute Order 66'.

It's not really a plot hole in the movies. But then The Clone Wars explains the brain chip and the whole Syfo-Dias thing and the Jedi Council know Count Dooku was behind the creation of the clones but decide to ignore it like it's just global warming. 

[Darth Richard II]

Syfo cane from a typo Lucas liked the sound of.

[RumHam]

1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

Syfo cane from a typo Lucas liked the sound of.

Star Wars names have always been bad. We're just used to Skywalker and Solo but they are terrible names. 

[Darth Richard II]

5 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Star Wars names have always been bad. We're just used to Skywalker and Solo but they are terrible names. 

Truth.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Eh, is that script confirmed as legit? Cause, internet.

Yeah, that's legit. Was leaked, I think, before AOTC even hit the theaters back in 2002.

6 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Is there a summary of what was cut/changed somewhere? I already forced myself to re-watch the movie recently there is no way I'm reading that.

Not that I'm aware of. I think the novelization of AOTC also covers a lot of the missing things, but what's really striking is how Lucas even botched many of the scenes that are in there - for instance, think of the scene at the start when Padmé comes in to talk to Palpatine in his office? Yoda welcomes her and is happy that she survived the attack, but she just ignores him and asks who was behind it? She actually did thank him for his words.

Or later, during the first heart-to-heart between Anakin and Padmé when she is packing we have her complain about not being there when the Military Creation Act is voted on and then Anakin comes with his presumptuous suggestion that 'sometimes we have to do what's requested of us' (which is a very moronic thing to say to one of the elected rulers of a Galactic Republic because very few people should ever dare to request anything from such people...). In the movie she meekly takes this as a sign that he has 'grown up'. But in the script she actually makes it clear that he is out of line there and then they talk a little bit more, and he tells her that his actual name is Anakin, not Ani, and that he is no longer a child - after which she looks him over and acknowledges that he has grown up.

That would have been a direct follow-up to their earlier scene where she made it clear that 'Ani' would always be that little boy from Tatooine for her.

There is also more talk between the Jedi and the politicians and the general strategist issues involved (how many Jedi are there to go to Geonosis, that the Jedi believe the Sith apprentice rather than the master is still at large, more romance issues, etc.) and we have a scene in the Senate where the issue with the army is discussed and they are about to vote on it after Palpatine declared Padmé dead (in the wake of the opening attack) but she shows up miraculously and nearly defeats the bill, which is then not voted on because of a technicality. The big scenes missing are those on Naboo featuring Padmé's parents, sister, and her children (which take place before the lake country and have Padmé first to realize that she is attracted to Anakin, too - her family thinks Anakin is her boyfriend -, greatly reducing the creep factor in that touching scene at the lake - which they actually repaired digitally, having him first touch her hand before going for the naked back and shoulder), the one with Jocasta Nu and Obi-Wan in the library discussing Dooku's background and why he left (they look at his bust and the dialogue is completely off there, it being a clumsy cut, with Nu asking Obi-Wan twice whether he needs assistance), then there are the scenes on Geonosis with Dooku and Padmé, and their trial.

Even during the final lightsaber confrontation stuff is missing, especially in choreography of the duels as such - which is blatantly obvious when you look at where Anakin is standing when he saves Obi-Wan from Dooku and where he is a moment later when Obi-Wan tosses him his saber (Anakin is then half across the room, indicating that they fought before a little bit - which is even mentioned in the script). Same for the Obi-Wan fight, and of course the Yoda thing - him first remaining passive and defending and only attacking Dooku later would have a hundred times better than what we got.

Yoda really got more lines there, very touching ones actually, for example when Palpatine asking the possibility for a war in the beginning he gives what we have in the movie, but would have added that he is sure about one thing, though 'Their duty the Jedi will do.'

6 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It's not really a plot hole in the movies. But then The Clone Wars explains the brain chip and the whole Syfo-Dias thing and the Jedi Council know Count Dooku was behind the creation of the clones but decide to ignore it like it's just global warming. 

Have to rewatch the episodes - but the brain chip they don't know anything about. Palpatine and the Kaminoans make it a virus, don't they? Which is dealt with by some innoculation.

They learn stuff about Sifo-Dyas and who Tyranus is and this is a massive problem, I agree. The EU Clone Wars literature was smarter than that, making it a point that the Jedi do know that Dooku is a dark sider and potential Sith, but they never get a confirmation that he is one from him - and they most definitely don't get told that he calls himself Darth Tyranus in secret. Because that should really start them to question the purpose of this entire war.

In fact, they are pretty stupid already that they go along with Palpatine's script despite the fact that Obi-Wan figures out that the clone template is also working for the Separatists. One could brush that off as a bounty hunter doing many jobs ... but it is kind of fishy and very odd that neither side (who are not all knowing Sith collaborators) would question their leadership in light of neither knowing that the other side was producing a powerful army clandestinely when a pivotal figure was involved in both projects.

The fact that they have to fight the war once it started is another issue. It was a real thing then. But not asking what the purpose of this war was is a major flaw.

[Lord Varys]

30 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Syfo cane from a typo Lucas liked the sound of.

Yeah, it looks that way - but it is also clear that Lucas wanted to make Sidious the guy who ordered the army personally since the Jedi guy didn't actually exist in the earlier version.

Had this been the plan we could have seen the Sifo-Dyas fellow on the Jedi Council in TPM. That would have been great, in fact.

[RumHam]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that's legit. Was leaked, I think, before AOTC even hit the theaters back in 2002.

I was able to find something on Aint it Cool News (that itself takes me back.) indicating as much. 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Have to rewatch the episodes - but the brain chip they don't know anything about. Palpatine and the Kaminoans make it a virus, don't they? Which is dealt with by some innoculation.

The Jedi Council does learn of the biological brain chip in the last (until February) season of the show. The Kaminoan who had previous been show to be in league with Dooku claims it's a behavior control thing to prevent rebellion.

But the thing is the whole investigation started when one of the clones killed his Jedi commander* because of a malfunction of the "behavior restricting" chip. So that alone should have been a red flag. 

*Not to mention he goes full "GRR JEDI BAD" instead of just coldly shooting her. 

Edit: I swear there is actually a scene in clone wars of the council agreeing to cover up the fact that the sith lord ordered the creation of the clone army. 

[Nictarion]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Star Wars names have always been bad. We're just used to Skywalker and Solo but they are terrible names. 

Lando Calrissian would like a word...

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I was able to find something on Aint it Cool News (that itself takes me back.) indicating as much.

The premiere of AOTC was a very bad experience for me. I had read all the leaked reports and stuff back then (based on that script and other sources) and was greatly shaken by what they did to the story.

8 minutes ago, RumHam said:

The Jedi Council does learn of the biological brain chip in the last (until February) season of the show. The Kaminoan who had previous been show to be in league with Dooku claims it's a behavior control thing to prevent rebellion.

Yeah, it is coming back now.

8 minutes ago, RumHam said:

But the thing is the whole investigation started when one of the clones killed his Jedi commander* because of a malfunction of the "behavior restricting" chip. So that alone should have been a red flag. 

Indeed. The whole thing about the clones having 'repressed Jedi hatred' or what not is implied that behavior was strange. ROTS sort of implies that some sort of Sith mind control kicks in with Order 66 since the clones all address Palpatine as 'my lord' rather than 'Your Excellency' (as they do address the Supreme Chancellor), and it would have been better to take that route rather than go with the chip preventing them from enacting their fantasies to kill Jedi.

8 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Edit: I swear there is actually a scene in clone wars of the council agreeing to cover up the fact that the sith lord ordered the creation of the clone army. 

Yeah, I think that was the one where they confront Dooku when they talk to Valorum's aide, no? There they learn about Dooku actually being Darth Tyranus.

Why the hell Dooku tells Obi-Wan about Darth Sidious in AOTC and says he runs the Senate is also somewhat weird. Doesn't that endanger Palpatine and their plan? If Tyranus had had a concrete plan to betray Sidious this could have made some sense, but this way he does it potentially endanger the entire plan. Unless, of course, Gunray knew stuff and talked to the Jedi after TPM - which he should have. They touch upon his trials but never elaborate whether the Jedi led Gunray as easily off the hook as the courts - which they shouldn't have done in light of all the Maul business. But then - we do know that they economic/industrial elite is actively in cahoots with the Sith and helps them play both the Republic and the Confederacy. This elaboration in TCW I really liked, although that no longer fits well with ROTS (there should have been a scene in TCW where Gunray, etc. actively take over the Separatists and become their leaders).

[Darth Richard II]

Ok but how do we know the leaked clones script is legit. Walsall it confirmed by anyone.