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How did Ice pass from Lord Rickard to Eddard Stark?


Greywater-Watch

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I wonder how the greatsword Ice passed into the hands of Eddard Stark. I assume Lord Rickard carried Ice when he came to KL in 282 AC for the trial by combat to save his son Brandon. He was then burned by the Mad King Aerys, during this Brandon died as well, trying to save his Father. Is it anywhere mentioned how Eddard got hold on Ice? Was it returned to Winterfell by Aerys or did eddard find it after the fall of Kings Landing? I assume Eddard had Ice in his hands at least when he fought Ser Arthur Dayne at the ToJ?

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27 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I assume Lord Rickard carried Ice when he came to KL in 282 AC for the trial by combat to save his son Brandon.

I’ve never assumed that. I assumed that Rickard, being summoned to KL to answer to a mad king for the crimes of his son, wisely left it behind in Winterfell, so it wouldn’t fall into anyone else’s hands. 
 

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I assume Eddard had Ice in his hands at least when he fought Ser Arthur Dayne at the ToJ?

I don’t think he did. Pretty sure I read GRRM saying somewhere that, especially for more recent Starks, Ice was largely ceremonial and not used in combat. It is absurdly large, and Ned, not expecting to ever inherit it, probably had little training or experience in wielding something so large. 

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17 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

I’ve never assumed that. I assumed that Rickard, being summoned to KL to answer to a mad king for the crimes of his son, wisely left it behind in Winterfell, so it wouldn’t fall into anyone else’s hands. 
 

I don’t think he did. Pretty sure I read GRRM saying somewhere that, especially for more recent Starks, Ice was largely ceremonial and not used in combat. It is absurdly large, and Ned, not expecting to ever inherit it, probably had little training or experience in wielding something so large. 

If the bold part is true, then it is clear to me, because I adhere to what GRRM says. Could you try to find the quote?

 

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17 hours ago, Travis said:

Ice is a huge sword, so I doubt it would be used by anyone in battle. It was largely used for ceremonial occasions and executions, so I doubt Rickard took Ice to Kings Landing.

Ser Arthur Dayne used his greatsword "Dawn" in battle, e.g. when he fought Ned Stark at the ToJ, I think it was mentioned that he slew the Smiling Knight with Dawn as well.

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27 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So why did Ned bring Ice to King’s Landing in AGOT?

He probably expected to cut some heads off as Hand of the King. I would imagine you would need a really really big sword to cut the Mountain's head off.

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On 1/9/2020 at 8:08 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

Ser Arthur Dayne used his greatsword "Dawn" in battle, e.g. when he fought Ned Stark at the ToJ, I think it was mentioned that he slew the Smiling Knight with Dawn as well.

I am pretty sure that ser Arthur did not slay Smniling Kinight with Dawn, as the Smiling Knight was the one wielding Dawn ;) 

 

And coming back to OP, I support the idea that Rickard probably did not bring Ice with him when he went South, and same goes for Ned during the Rebbelion. 

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9 minutes ago, eazy said:

I am pretty sure that ser Arthur did not slay Smniling Kinight with Dawn, as the Smiling Knight was the one wielding Dawn ;)

Not according to Jaime, who was there, and who gives the only account of the encounter that we have... 

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And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

Dayne used Dawn to kill the Smiling Knight. 

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10 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Not according to Jaime, who was there, and who gives the only account of the encounter that we have... 

Dayne used Dawn to kill the Smiling Knight. 

 

Wow, that is the part which I meant and now I think I may have misunderstood it then. I have always thought that ser Arthur did give the Dawn to Smiling Kinight and then slew him using some other sword. 

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13 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

He probably expected to cut some heads off as Hand of the King. I would imagine you would need a really really big sword to cut the Mountain's head off.

Never thought of this before, but yea I think you're right.  Ned must have known that his duties as Hand might include finding someone guilty of a crime that required execution, and he meant what he said to Bran about the importance of being the one to swing the sword.

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12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Never thought of this before, but yea I think you're right.  Ned must have known that his duties as Hand might include finding someone guilty of a crime that required execution, and he meant what he said to Bran about the importance of being the one to swing the sword.

That had never occurred to me. I know that Varys warned Ned that by sending Beric instead of Ilyn after the Mountain that he was risking the anger of the King's Justice, but Ned actually taking over the one job of the KJ* probably would have looked like a slap in the face.

*I know the office also carries some responsibilities over the dungeons, but since he's a mute illiterate Payne can't do that part of the job.

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On 1/10/2020 at 3:10 AM, Angel Eyes said:

So why did Ned bring Ice to King’s Landing in AGOT?

I think simply because King's Landing was to be Ned's permanent residence then, so it was to be the permanent place for Ice as well. He might need to cut some heads off but he also might use it for ceremonial reasons during important state events as a symbol of House Stark. I see no problem here: He was moving his important personal possessions to KL, so he naturally took along Ice.

During the war, Ned probably took only what he needed for a military campaign, and Rickard  had no reason to carry Ice to KL when summoned by the king.   

Dawn must have been a different kind of sword, as it was used for fighting. 

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On 1/8/2020 at 7:59 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

I wonder how the greatsword Ice passed into the hands of Eddard Stark. I assume Lord Rickard carried Ice when he came to KL in 282 AC for the trial by combat to save his son Brandon. He was then burned by the Mad King Aerys, during this Brandon died as well, trying to save his Father. Is it anywhere mentioned how Eddard got hold on Ice? Was it returned to Winterfell by Aerys or did eddard find it after the fall of Kings Landing? I assume Eddard had Ice in his hands at least when he fought Ser Arthur Dayne at the ToJ?

That's a good question. Whatever the case, I suspect Rickard knew he, and Brandon, had little chance of making it out of KL alive.

It seems almost certain that Jon Arryn was similarly summoned to answer for his nephew and heir Elbert, who had gone to KL with Brandon, and whose own father was dead.

Yet every indication is that Jon went to/remained at the Eyrie with Ned and Robert, rather than travel to KL to attempt to save his own nephew and heir.

Rickard could have sent Ice off with/to Ned before he set out for KL, depending on whether Ned was already in the Vale, or had been traveling with Rickard before going to the Vale.

IIRC, GRRM has noted that Ice would be too much for Ned to wield in battle, so while it is possible he had it at the TOJ, it is unlikely he would have used it in the fight.

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20 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That's a good question. Whatever the case, I suspect Rickard knew he, and Brandon, had little chance of making it out of KL alive.

It seems almost certain that Jon Arryn was similarly summoned to answer for his nephew and heir Elbert, who had gone to KL with Brandon, and whose own father was dead.

Yet every indication is that Jon went to/remained at the Eyrie with Ned and Robert, rather than travel to KL to attempt to save his own nephew and heir.

Rickard could have sent Ice off with/to Ned before he set out for KL, depending on whether Ned was already in the Vale, or had been traveling with Rickard before going to the Vale.

IIRC, GRRM has noted that Ice would be too much for Ned to wield in battle, so while it is possible he had it at the TOJ, it is unlikely he would have used it in the fight.

The likely answer is that Ice never left Winterfell, Rickard was already south the Neck when everything went to shit and it made zero sense for him to take Ice to a wedding.

About Jon and Elbert,  i tend to believe in the Occam's razor here, either he for some reason didn't receive hte letter or if he did he knew that something was foul there and knew his nephew was as good as dead, but giving that he only rebelled when Aerys threatened his golden boys, one should think that being trapped by geography made it unlikely that he could made it in time.

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On 1/9/2020 at 7:08 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

Ser Arthur Dayne used his greatsword "Dawn" in battle, e.g. when he fought Ned Stark at the ToJ, I think it was mentioned that he slew the Smiling Knight with Dawn as well.

And yet, Ned did not bring Ice. The two men treat their swords very differently as either blade has a different meaning. Ice is a ceremonial sword that belongs to the Starks of Winterfell, we observe Ned using it purely as a tool for execution and to some extent, a symbol of office. Ice is passed from father to son. We may learn that there is a different purpose for it. One that's been lost in time. But it is clear that Ned didn't want it at the TOJ, nor Rickard at the RK. Both men were attempting a rescue of their kin. But neither favoured the weapon of their house for this purpose.

The above contrasts with the Dayne sword, Dawn. Dawn is a blade held by a worthy warrior and is not automatically handed to the Lord or Lady of Starfall. It comes with the title - sword of the morning. So one would expect such a person to wield that blade all of the time and master it. 

Greatswords are impressive weapons (esp one made from VS) but they're not necessarily the most effective in a fight. You'd have to master it in-order to justify taking it into war. Better a shorter sword with a shield in your spare hand or if you need a two-handed weapon, a pike or poleaxe were reasonably effective even in a novice's hands. 

I think it makes sense that Ice was in a very safe place for Ned to claim it. And he only brought it south as he was going to KL in an official capacity. 

I will also add, there's every reason to believe that Ned did not want to be identified en-route to the TOJ. And an enormous VS greatsword would of been a major giveaway. Suffice to say, it wouldn't take long for people to identify him and begin to ask, 'why does the WotN have business in Dorne?' 

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On 1/8/2020 at 7:59 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

I wonder how the greatsword Ice passed into the hands of Eddard Stark. I assume Lord Rickard carried Ice when he came to KL in 282 AC for the trial by combat to save his son Brandon. He was then burned by the Mad King Aerys, during this Brandon died as well, trying to save his Father. Is it anywhere mentioned how Eddard got hold on Ice? Was it returned to Winterfell by Aerys or did eddard find it after the fall of Kings Landing? I assume Eddard had Ice in his hands at least when he fought Ser Arthur Dayne at the ToJ?

 

On 1/8/2020 at 8:19 AM, Travis said:

Ice is a huge sword, so I doubt it would be used by anyone in battle. It was largely used for ceremonial occasions and executions, so I doubt Rickard took Ice to Kings Landing.

This, perhaps.  I also think King Aerys had no need for the sword.  Someone in his court sent it to the armory and there it sat until the rebels sacked the city. 

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