The Crash of Ukrainian International Airlines Flight PS752

[Loge]

58 minutes ago, DMC said:

Essentially every story I've seen detailing casualties mentions the three British and German victims. 

There were no German citizens on the plane, but three German residents, an Afghan woman and her two children who were granted asylum in Germany. Could be they had German travel documents of some kind.

[DMC]

39 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

All the stories about the other nationals have also shown they were dual nationals, therefore considered Iranians by Iran.

Who cares?  I don't see why it matters in any way that they're dual-citizens.  They're still citizens of Afghanistan, Canada, Germany, and the UK.

[The Last Storm]

9 hours ago, Impmk2 said:

Bit moot given theyve just admitted shooting it down, but I'm not sure you want to point to Iraqi WMDs as a triumph of inferring guilt from resistance to western investigators.

Took them a while to admit to what everyone knew. Most likely after they publicly executed those responsible. 

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Who cares?  I don't see why it matters in any way that they're dual-citizens.  They're still citizens of Afghanistan, Canada, Germany, and the UK.

Nonsense. If they were 63 Canadians without links to Iran the pressure points would be much different. There have been Iranian-Canadians arrested (and murdered) by the Iranians and the Iranians have told the Canadian government to basically go fuck off and die, refusing to turn over information about arrests and injuries and deaths, because those people were Iranians as far as they were concerned.

And I repeat, do you think Trump would have given a shit if an Iranian-American were on the plane? He’d consider them Iranians as well, just like judges with Mexican heritage are Mexicans.

[DMC]

43 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

If they were 63 Canadians without links to Iran the pressure points would be much different. There have been Iranian-Canadians arrested (and murdered) by the Iranians and the Iranians have told the Canadian government to basically go fuck off and die, refusing to turn over information about arrests and injuries and deaths, because those people were Iranians as far as they were concerned.

This logic is backward.  The "pressure points" should be Canada pressuring Iran, not the other way around.  Are you saying the Canadian government is going to be less committed to acquiring information/restitution because many of their citizens were also Iranian?  And while the Iranians may use their heritage as an excuse not to comply, it's a completely empty one.  If they were Canadian-American victims, the Iranians would come up with some other excuse - if they are inclined to do so.

[Larry of the Lawn]

4 hours ago, The Last Storm said:

Took them a while to admit to what everyone knew. Most likely after they publicly executed those responsible. 

Hey pal, remember when the US shot down an Iranian civilian flight in '88?  No?  They still haven't apologized.  Crazy, right?

[Impmk2]

9 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

 

I think we are all relieved that Iran stopped the farce. And no it’s not a ‘bit moot’ that the admission is a rare one. I have no idea what the bloody hell the rest of your sentence says.

Was in direct response to the post I'd quoted, which I thought was an absolutely bizarre example to bring up.

[Fragile Bird]

The latest controversy seems to be, why was this plane mistaken for an invader when, apparently, 10 flights left the airport around the same time. Did the pilot veer off the usual route.

[Zorral]

17 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

The latest controversy seems to be, why was this plane mistaken for an invader when, apparently, 10 flights left the airport around the same time. Did the pilot veer off the usual route.

I was doing something else, but I think I heard on a news - talk public radio program that this particular plane for some reason made a turn, and it seemed to be heading toward an Iranian military facility.  But then the Iranians walked that back.

Ah, here, in the NY Times, confirmation of that:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/world/middleeast/plane-crash.html#link-3ea0ca3f

Quote

The military blamed human error. In a statement, it said Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 had taken a sharp, unexpected turn that brought it near a sensitive military base. Hours later, though, an Iranian official walked back that claim

.

 

 

[Clueless Northman]

Its recorded path was quite the same as the paths of previous flights in the last few hours. So if it made a sharp turn, then it means something else happened that cut off the transponder and made it turn right sharply. Otherwise, it's obviously the missile strike that disabled all comms, and one has to assume it induced the plane to turn for some reason - which seems to be the simplest solution.

[Fragile Bird]

Canada has announced it is providing $25,000 to the families of all the Canadian citizens and permanent residents who were on the flight, so they can deal with travel expenses and funeral costs. But of course, we are still demanding the Iranian government compensate all the passengers.

The black boxes are apparently extremely damaged, as suspected. 

[Fragile Bird]

The New York Times did a story about Trudeau’s announcement of the $25,000 payments to the families, and I immediately went to the comments section (on Facebook) and the amount of hatred expressed against Trudeau by Americans was unbelievable. He was called every kind of vile Iran-ass-kisser imaginable.

When the Iranian government announced they would be taking retaliatory action for the assignation by the Americans, the spokesperson was careful to say they were attacking the US government, not US people, that they had no hatred for the American people and they were sure the American people did not hate the Iranian people. I suspect he was being overly optimistic there.

[The Last Storm]

2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

The New York Times did a story about Trudeau’s announcement of the $25,000 payments to the families, and I immediately went to the comments section (on Facebook) and the amount of hatred expressed against Trudeau by Americans was unbelievable. He was called every kind of vile Iran-ass-kisser imaginable.

When the Iranian government announced they would be taking retaliatory action for the assignation by the Americans, the spokesperson was careful to say they were attacking the US government, not US people, that they had no hatred for the American people and they were sure the American people did not hate the Iranian people. I suspect he was being overly optimistic there.

I think there is a large majority of Americans who don’t care one way or another what happens in Iran or the Middle East as long as it doesn’t affect their lives. I think there is also another sizable group of Americans who see American Flags being burned on the news by large Iranian gatherings and somehow that doesn’t sit that well with them. Maybe your privy to some videos of Americans burning Iranian flags?

[DanteGabriel]

13 minutes ago, The Last Storm said:

I think there is a large majority of Americans who don’t care one way or another what happens in Iran or the Middle East as long as it doesn’t affect their lives. I think there is also another sizable group of Americans who see American Flags being burned on the news by large Iranian gatherings and somehow that doesn’t sit that well with them. Maybe your privy to some videos of Americans burning Iranian flags?

Our country deposed a democratically elected government of theirs to install a corrupt murderous dictator, profited off their natural resources for decades, backed Saddam Fucking Hussein against them with chemical weapons, and you think the real victims are ignorant American snowflakes getting pissy about a burning flag? Get bent.

Oh yeah, we also have not yet apologized for shooting down an Iranian airliner decades ago, when there was much less of a provoking event than the assassination of a high government official.

[The Last Storm]

46 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Our country deposed a democratically elected government of theirs to install a corrupt murderous dictator, profited off their natural resources for decades, backed Saddam Fucking Hussein against them with chemical weapons, and you think the real victims are ignorant American snowflakes getting pissy about a burning flag? Get bent.

Oh yeah, we also have not yet apologized for shooting down an Iranian airliner decades ago, when there was much less of a provoking event than the assassination of a high government official.

In my post I was talking about American citizens, yet for some reason you felt you needed to list all the so called atrocities committed by our government over the years against Iran. In the post I quoted the topic I was responding to was the alleged hate American citizens have against Iranian people.

Maybe if you burned a flag you would feel better?

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, The Last Storm said:

I think there is a large majority of Americans who don’t care one way or another what happens in Iran or the Middle East as long as it doesn’t affect their lives. I think there is also another sizable group of Americans who see American Flags being burned on the news by large Iranian gatherings and somehow that doesn’t sit that well with them. Maybe your privy to some videos of Americans burning Iranian flags?

So Iranians burning American flags because of things like having their government deposed decades ago and a dictator being propped up by the US and all the other things done to them by the USA, a country that gets pissed when their selected despot gets kicked out, justifies calling the PM of Canada an Iranian ass kisser because we gave support to Canadian citizens who lost their family members in a horrific example of what the US likes to call collateral damage? Really?

Most citizens of most countries are preoccupied with their daikly lives and don't care about foreign affairs. If the Iranians assassinate Trump, see how that changes.

[The Last Storm]

9 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

So Iranians burning American flags because of things like having their government deposed decades ago and a dictator being propped up by the US and all the other things done to them by the USA, a country that gets pissed when their selected despot gets kicked out, justifies calling the PM of Canada an Iranian ass kisser because we gave support to Canadian citizens who lost their family members in a horrific example of what the US likes to call collateral damage? Really?

Most citizens of most countries are preoccupied with their daikly lives and don't care about foreign affairs. If the Iranians assassinate Trump, see how that changes.

Please don’t group me, and the vast majority, in with those people who did what you are talking about. The same way I won’t group all Iranians in with their government or religion. (Which if you want me to I could list some pretty nasty things about both)

[DanteGabriel]

29 minutes ago, The Last Storm said:

Please don’t group me, and the vast majority, in with those people who did what you are talking about. The same way I won’t group all Iranians in with their government or religion. (Which if you want me to I could list some pretty nasty things about both)

Go ahead, I can tell you're really eager to let some real bigoted shit fly.

[The Last Storm]

52 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Go ahead, I can tell you're really eager to let some real bigoted shit fly.

I would say pointing out Iran’s and Islam’s condemnation of homosexuality is the actual opposite of that. Unless?

your gonna have to dig deeper into your pouch of message board defender 

[DanteGabriel]

2 minutes ago, The Last Storm said:

I would say pointing out Iran’s and Islam’s condemnation of homosexuality is the actual opposite of that. Unless?

Oh, I didn't realize your animus for Iran and Muslims was based on your strong desire to have social justice for the LGBTQ community. Very admirable. Does that mean you are similarly hostile to American Christian sects that discriminate against same?