NFL Playoffs: Hindsight Is 20/20 For Bad Coaching Decisions

[The Last Storm]

5 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

It was a great catch. And a good escape by Manning. But just think what Eli's legacy would be if Adalius Thomas had gotten just a little better grasp on him.

Do you imagine the Tyree catch is some kind of unbeatable rhetorical weapon that instantly devastates Pats fans? I was actually wondering when you'd retreat to that since every other argument you've tried has failed.

Yeah, losing the undefeated season sucked. Losing in 2011 sucked too, but I kinda expected that one. My team won three more Super Bowls after that. We got the Butler pick and  Edelman's catch and 28-3 and the humbling of McVay. The second half of Brady's career, everything after 2011, is good enough by itself to be a first ballot Hall of Famer. What's your team done since 2011? Hire a succession of embarrassing coaches, and taint yourselves with giving special treatment to a mediocre kicker who beat his wife so much NFL security had to get involved.

Eli’s getting in. Accept it. If you’ve read my above post I already said we’ve been a laughing stock lately. Are you really that bitter? Hopefully Joe Judge brings with him the NE way of doing things ( apart from the cheating  ). 

[James Arryn]

I’ve never had strong feelings about Eli one way or another, but I think his getting into the HOF would diminish the point of the thing. He was...better than meh. 

[Jace, Extat]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

I’ve never had strong feelings about Eli one way or another, but I think his getting into the HOF would diminish the point of the thing. He was...better than meh. 

Twice out of sixteen he was pretty good.

[James Arryn]

Just now, Jace, Basilissa said:

Twice out of sixteen he was pretty good.

He was okay those times, but he was 0 for Everything in every other playoffs. 

[dbunting]

Eli's stats are based on the era he played in and longevity, not his superior talent. So he was average for a long time and had two playoff runs. He was only in the pro bowl what 4 times out of 16 and never was an all pro, not even once.

But, he does have the stats and is a 2 time SB MVP, never missed a game.

You can argue both ways and pretty much be right.

[Rhom]

On Golic and Wingo just now they said that Eli retires as the player to make the most money in NFL history at $252m.  Peyton is second at $248m.   

Brees and Brady will both pass them next season, but I gotta say... that's not a stat that I expected to see!

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

@DanteGabriel, I agree with basically every argument you’ve made since I last posted. 

13 hours ago, Fez said:

The only argument I see in favor of Eli is simple longevity.

Being a mediocre compiler is not a good argument for the HoF.

Honestly if you want to make an argument for Eli, cite Troy Aikman. His stats are trash, he only threw over 20 TDs once (23), but despite that he won multiple titles while playing on a marquee team. That’s the only reason he’s in.

[Maithanet]

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Honestly if you want to make an argument for Eli, cite Troy Aikman. His stats are trash, he only threw over 20 TDs once (23), but despite that he won multiple titles while playing on a marquee team. That’s the only reason he’s in.

Aikman was better than Eli though.  From 1992 to 1995 Aikman was definitely a top 4 quarterback.  His passer rating those years was 3rd, 2nd, 5th and 3rd, and his passing yards is similar.  Eli has nothing like that. 

Speaking generally as a former Redskins fan, I never feared Eli.  The Giants as a team were formidable for sure, but Eli?  He's just a guy.  Through the years I was much more scared of Aikman and McNabb and Romo, because those guys were really good at beating mediocre teams like Washington, whereas with Eli you always had the possibility that he would just look terrible.  I can remember two games just off the top of my head where utterly inferior Washington teams beat the Giants because of Eli. 

[dbunting]

2 hours ago, Rhom said:

On Golic and Wingo just now they said that Eli retires as the player to make the most money in NFL history at $252m.  Peyton is second at $248m.   

Brees and Brady will both pass them next season, but I gotta say... that's not a stat that I expected to see!

Yeah, Matt Stafford is the guy who could end up making the most money ever as long as he signs one more deal. His current contract will end in 2022 putting him at 262 million lifetime. So add another contract onto that, even just two years puts him well north of 300 mill. I don't know that he will play another contract out but I believe he was the last QB signed under the old draft rules where rookies got paid more. 

[Fez]

26 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Being a mediocre compiler is not a good argument for the HoF.

You can make that argument; but right now that is sufficient to get into the HoF, at least for QBs and RBs.

It somewhat pains me to say it, but compilation is the only reason Curtis Martin is in the HoF. It's certainly the reason George Blanda is in (though playing for 26 years is such a hell of a thing that it kinda deserves it no matter what). Same for folks like Bob Griese and Jerome Bettis.

[the Greenleif Stark]

27 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Aikman was better than Eli though.  From 1992 to 1995 Aikman was definitely a top 4 quarterback.  His passer rating those years was 3rd, 2nd, 5th and 3rd, and his passing yards is similar.  Eli has nothing like that. 

Speaking generally as a former Redskins fan, I never feared Eli.  The Giants as a team were formidable for sure, but Eli?  He's just a guy.  Through the years I was much more scared of Aikman and McNabb and Romo, because those guys were really good at beating mediocre teams like Washington, whereas with Eli you always had the possibility that he would just look terrible.  I can remember two games just off the top of my head where utterly inferior Washington teams beat the Giants because of Eli. 

You're memory is shot, Eli owned the Redskins(19-10) and both McNabb and Romo never won anything significant, McNabb had his shot but blew it and Romo was always a just a regular season Fantasy Football HOFer

[dbunting]

32 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

@DanteGabriel, I agree with basically every argument you’ve made since I last posted. 

Being a mediocre compiler is not a good argument for the HoF.

Honestly if you want to make an argument for Eli, cite Troy Aikman. His stats are trash, he only threw over 20 TDs once (23), but despite that he won multiple titles while playing on a marquee team. That’s the only reason he’s in.

Hey hey hey! Aikman was a pro bowler for half of his career (Eli 25%) and 3 time SB winner, they would have won more if Jimmy and Jerry and their ridiculous egos hadn't screwed things up. His stats aren't higher because they didn't need to be, he actually played on a balanced team with some guy named Smith who was racking up all kinds of stats. 

 

And yes of course I'm over reacting because this era was my prime fan viewing era, early to mid twenties, lived and breathed it.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

18 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Aikman was better than Eli though.  From 1992 to 1995 Aikman was definitely a top 4 quarterback.  His passer rating those years was 3rd, 2nd, 5th and 3rd, and his passing yards is similar.  Eli has nothing like that. 

Speaking generally as a former Redskins fan, I never feared Eli.  The Giants as a team were formidable for sure, but Eli?  He's just a guy.  Through the years I was much more scared of Aikman and McNabb and Romo, because those guys were really good at beating mediocre teams like Washington, whereas with Eli you always had the possibility that he would just look terrible.  I can remember two games just off the top of my head where utterly inferior Washington teams beat the Giants because of Eli. 

 

8 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Hey hey hey! Aikman was a pro bowler for half of his career (Eli 25%) and 3 time SB winner, they would have won more if Jimmy and Jerry and their ridiculous egos hadn't screwed things up. His stats aren't higher because they didn't need to be, he actually played on a balanced team with some guy named Smith who was racking up all kinds of stats. 

 

And yes of course I'm over reacting because this era was my prime fan viewing era, early to mid twenties, lived and breathed it.

The point about not fearing Eli is valid, and it’s another giant red flag against his case for the HoF, but I’m not so sure that Aikman was all that much better than Eli. I’m pretty sure most above average QBs could replicate what he did with what was around him and what was asked of him. Again, those stats are jarring compared to his contemporaries.   

13 minutes ago, Fez said:

You can make that argument; but right now that is sufficient to get into the HoF, at least for QBs and RBs.

It somewhat pains me to say it, but compilation is the only reason Curtis Martin is in the HoF. It's certainly the reason George Blanda is in (though playing for 26 years is such a hell of a thing that it kinda deserves it no matter what). Same for folks like Bob Griese and Jerome Bettis.

Not really. If that were the case Tiki Barber would be in the HoF. He was way better than Eli. But as my favorite commentator pointed out, one was likable while the other was not. Eli will only get in for off the field reasons. Full stop.

[dbunting]

IMO Terry Bradshaw is the similar, his stats aren't overwhelming at all. Almost 50-50 split between TD's 212 and Int's 210. Comp % around 52%, only a 3 time pro bowler, he was a better runner.  But he won SB's.

 

Another stat guy who will end up in HOF is Frank Gore, the guy is like the energizer bunny, he just keeps going and going... He is 3rd in all time rushing but I wouldn't think he could crack a top 20 list if you made one.

[dbunting]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

The point about not fearing Eli is valid, and it’s another giant red flag against his case for the HoF, but I’m not so sure that Aikman was all that much better than Eli. I’m pretty sure most above average QBs could replicate what he did with what was around him and what was asked of him. Again, those stats are jarring compared to his contemporaries.   

 

But are you purposely not remembering that Emmitt Smith, the all time leader in rushing and rushing td's was playing with Aikman pretty much his entire career? Pretty hard to get cheap stats when you are rushing more than any other team. 

[Maithanet]

17 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

You're memory is shot, Eli the Giants owned the Redskins(17-10) and both McNabb and Romo never won anything significant, McNabb had his shot but blew it and Romo was always a just a regular season Fantasy Football HOFer

Fixed that for you.  The Giants were a better team than the Redskins for the past fifteen years, so even an average quarterback like Eli will have a solid win percentage over them.  I'd also note 17-10 is not super impressive, that gives a win percentage of 37% for Washington vs the Giants, compared to Washington's overall record between 2004 and 2019 of 101-154-1, or 39%.  Not much of a difference.  

[Wilbur]

18 minutes ago, dbunting said:

IMO Terry Bradshaw is the similar, his stats aren't overwhelming at all. Almost 50-50 split between TD's 212 and Int's 210. Comp % around 52%, only a 3 time pro bowler, he was a better runner.  But he won SB's.

Bradshaw called his own plays, and the 1970s were a run-first and then run-second era, so he only got to throw about 1/3 or 1/4 of the time modern QBs have an opportunity to throw.

Meanwhile Eli played for offensive coordinators that would not really be considered top notch.  A lot of times I thought that perhaps the confused look on his face was due to the nonsense he was hearing from his helmet radio.

[The Last Storm]

I think it’s fair to say that if your a Giant fan like myself you more than likely think Eli should get in. No other 2x super bowl MVP is not in the hall. His career stats put him in if you compare him to others that are in, albeit from different eras. If Joe Namath is in the hall of fame there is no way you can keep Eli out, sorry.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

19 minutes ago, dbunting said:

But are you purposely not remembering that Emmitt Smith, the all time leader in rushing and rushing td's was playing with Aikman pretty much his entire career? Pretty hard to get cheap stats when you are rushing more than any other team. 

It’s funny that you use the term remember, because my oldest football memory is being a little kid watching the Cowboys in the Superb Owl, and the only thing I can remember about it is a graphic they put up showing that the Dallas O-Line’s combined weight was nearly a ton, which was significantly more than any other team. It was like they were playing with six linemen, and their best one would tell the other team, “Hey, we’re running right here, eat it.” I think a lot of good players could have become all-time greats behind that line, be it QBs or RBs.

[dbunting]

1 minute ago, Wilbur said:

Bradshaw called his own plays, and the 1970s were a run-first and then run-second era, so he only got to throw about 1/3 or 1/4 of the time modern QBs have an opportunity to throw.

Meanwhile Eli played for offensive coordinators that would not really be considered top notch.  A lot of times I thought that perhaps the confused look on his face was due to the nonsense he was hearing from his helmet radio.

True.  I just meant in terms of stats and of pro bowls, compared to your contemporaries.