NFL Playoffs: Hindsight Is 20/20 For Bad Coaching Decisions

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

In that response he did.  The discussion started with his present tense comment:  "I actually think the Vikings are more talented."

To clarify, I meant both. On paper they were the better team at the start of the year and they were on Saturday before we knew what the injury situation was really like. The Niners gave up the lowest opposing QBR rating for 10 or 11 weeks, but after the injuries started piling up they became the worst at it in the league. We didn't know which team was going to show up until it quickly became obvious that it was the old Niners team.

Maybe I don't know your roster well enough, but the only clear advantages in my eyes were at TE and D-Line, and the Vikings are also quite strong in those areas. You O-Line is better too, but I thought they were also beat up. We have the best collection of skill players and a guy on all three levels of the defense that's in the conversation for best at their position (Hunter, Kendricks, Smith). What went horribly wrong is at CB, specifically Rhodes. Kal is right to point out that defense isn't as sustainable as offense year over year, but I have no idea how a still relatively young DB goes from elite to trash in two years despite not suffering any serious injury.

And no @briantw, Kirk was not the problem. The problem that plagued us all year was our inability to make offensive adjustments in game when things weren't going well, and I lay the blame for that at the feet of............... Kevin Stefanski. 

Like seriously, how could a team look at the results from the Vikings and Chiefs game and tell themselves the want the guy who ran the Vikings O?

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Maybe I don't know your roster well enough, but the only clear advantages in my eyes were at TE and D-Line, and the Vikings are also quite strong in those areas. You O-Line is better too

I think the Niners' secondary clearly showed they were superior on Sunday, even if they were ranked similarly throughout the season (this PFF article just out today has the Niners ranked 2nd and the Vikings 3rd for the regular season).  Sherman seems to be getting a bit overrated the past few weeks, but his performance this year clearly was a top 3 corner.  Their safeties - Ward and Tartt - also performed at pro-bowl quality throughout the year, according to PFF, and their slot corner - K'Waun Williams was one of the best nickels in the league this year.  Witherspoon obviously is dealing with some performance issues, but they had Moseley to plug right in there after the disastrous first drive.  Which speaks to a superior unit/roster.

So..basically the Vikings have a clearly better receiving unit and premier back - but, again, it's very hard to say the Vikings have a better rushing "unit."  And not just because of the Niners' dominance there on Saturday, but because of their team stats throughout the year.  Those are pretty damn weak components to argue the Vikings are more talented overall.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think the Niners' secondary clearly showed they were superior on Sunday, even if they were ranked similarly throughout the season (this PFF article just out today has the Niners ranked 2nd and the Vikings 3rd for the regular season).  Sherman seems to be getting a bit overrated the past few weeks, but his performance this year clearly was a top 3 corner.  Their safeties - Ward and Tartt - also performed at pro-bowl quality throughout the year, according to PFF, and their slot corner - K'Waun Williams was one of the best nickels in the league this year.  Witherspoon obviously is dealing with some performance issues, but they had Moseley to plug right in there after the disastrous first drive.  Which speaks to a superior unit/roster.

Thanks for the link. I'm actually quite shocked we ranked third, but as PFF points out, we had the two highest rated safeties while not having any CBs in the top 25. Furthermore we were dealing with a number of injuries that turned out to be more significant than I expected. But that said I'd still put more value on the pass rush. You guys were walking to Kirk while we couldn't get to Jimmy because he passes so damn quickly. Can't recall if I wrote about that here or not, but I was always of the belief that if your guys were back at near 100% we were toast, but if not we might be the favorite. And like I said, that got answer very quickly.

Quote

So..basically the Vikings have a clearly better receiving unit and premier back - but, again, it's very hard to say the Vikings have a better rushing "unit."  And not just because of the Niners' dominance there on Saturday, but because of their team stats throughout the year.  Those are pretty damn weak components to argue the Vikings are more talented overall.

Actually both teams are rather similar. FO has our lines as being basically the same, and a quick look at the stats show the teams are basically the same, but you scored at a slightly higher clip, but I'd just counter that by arguing that Cook is our most important player and he missed a non-insignificant amount of time, so it's probably basically all a wash in the end.

The more you look at it, our teams are actually very similar with you having a better d-line and us having better WRs. Problem is your best strength is one of our weaknesses, and your guys showed up while ours sucked. We need to get a mobile QB if we're not going to fix our offensive line.

[Nictarion]

Bill Lazor to Chicago as OC (oof).

let the Dalton to the Bears rumors commence

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Bill Lazor to Chicago as OC (oof).

let the Dalton to the Bears rumors commence

What's he worth to you at this point?

[DMC]

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The more you look at it, our teams are actually very similar with you having a better d-line and us having better WRs.

I'd say that's generally fair, but I think the dominance of the Niners' DL at full health (which it actually still really isn't with DJ Jones and Blair out, but even so) clearly outweighs the advantage at WR, which I think has been mitigated somewhat with Samuel's emergence (other than that damn fumble!).  Plus, having the best TE in football, who also was one of the top 5 non-QB offensive players in the league this season, is considerable.  Coupled with the OL's ability to facilitate the Niners backs consistently running right past the Vikings DL, and I think the overall roster superiority is manifest.

[unJon]

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What's he worth to you at this point?

Maybe a 4th. 

[Nictarion]

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What's he worth to you at this point?

So hard to say. Titans got Tannehill for peanuts. 

[DanteGabriel]

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Remember those Pats fans that were talking about how Antonio Brown was maligned and unfairly being judged by others?

Good times, good times

https://www.tmz.com/2020/01/13/antonio-brown-police-hollywood-florida-chelsie-kyriss/

He needs an intervention. 

I wonder if Belichick and Brady are still pissed that they had to let him go?

[dbunting]

12 hours ago, Rhom said:

And you know what else?

I forgot this one damning piece of evidence against him.  In 1991, he took the Dallas Cowboys to the playoffs and lost... to the Detroit Lions!

I’m honestly surprised they even let him stay in the league.

This game still haunts me to this day. I am a Cowboys fan living near Detroit. I have enjoyed much more success than Lions fans obviously and I try not to rub it in too much but sometimes a discussion gets going...and I'll be damned if that game doesn't come up, the last Lions playoff victory was of course over Dallas. The lone Lions playoff win since 1957 and it was Dallas they had to beat. Never mind that Dallas went on to win three SB's all they want to say is yeah, but Detroit won in 91'!

As to Jimmy Johnson and the HOF, I'm of course biased.  His getting in the HOF has as much to do with his influence as his actual on the field stuff. He was an amazing judge of talent and knew how to reach his players and get the most out of them. He set that team up for a decade of dominance that got derailed by the owner and his need to be the savior. 

[DMC]

1 hour ago, dbunting said:

I have enjoyed much more success than Lions fans obviously and I try not to rub it in too much but sometimes a discussion gets going...and I'll be damned if that game doesn't come up, the last Lions playoff victory was of course over Dallas. The lone Lions playoff win since 1957 and it was Dallas they had to beat. Never mind that Dallas went on to win three SB's all they want to say is yeah, but Detroit won in 91'!

Reminds me of being a Yankee fan in Pittsburgh.  I had a vague notion who Bill Mazeroski was when I moved here, but since it's all I ever hear about when striking up conversations with the locals (well, that and disgust and the Pirates owner).  It was literally brought up by my now-advisor at the recruitment event I attended when deciding on programs (and she's not even from Pittsburgh!).

[DanteGabriel]

I can see Jimmy Johnson getting into the HoF, but maybe he should be introduced by Herschel Walker, or whoever the hell in Minnesota agreed to that trade.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 hours ago, unJon said:

Maybe a 4th. 

 

14 hours ago, Nictarion said:

So hard to say. Titans got Tannehill for peanuts. 

I doubt you’d get a fourth in the offseason. I’d wait till the trade deadline. Some contender will probably lose their QB and talk themselves into being just an Andy Dalton away.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 hours ago, DMC said:

I'd say that's generally fair, but I think the dominance of the Niners' DL at full health (which it actually still really isn't with DJ Jones and Blair out, but even so) clearly outweighs the advantage at WR, which I think has been mitigated somewhat with Samuel's emergence (other than that damn fumble!).  Plus, having the best TE in football, who also was one of the top 5 non-QB offensive players in the league this season, is considerable.  Coupled with the OL's ability to facilitate the Niners backs consistently running right past the Vikings DL, and I think the overall roster superiority is manifest.

Yeah I agree a great pass rush is better than having great WRs, and I’d argue your d-line was the best overall unit in football this year.

As to Kittle being top five, that’s an interesting argument. I can think of three defensive players and one RB I’d take before him, but after that he’s fair game.

[Maithanet]

This offseason is going to be pretty crazy.  I don't know if we've ever seen so many veteran qbs who used to be starters hit free agency, with relatively few spots to go to.  Usually it's the other way around, but the timing worked out that a lot of guys are coming on the market, and a lot of qb needy teams still have a young guy they are committed to. 

[dbunting]

2 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

I can see Jimmy Johnson getting into the HoF, but maybe he should be introduced by Herschel Walker, or whoever the hell in Minnesota agreed to that trade.

Stop, just stop with this. There have been plenty of teams in the NFL to have multiple 1st round picks, extra 2nd rd picks every year and yet they don't do what he did.

He had the picks and actually drafted wisely, drafted multiple HOF players THAT OTHER TEAMS WITH BETTER DRAFT PICKS PASSED ON. In years with just his own picks he drafted wisely. In Miami he drafted 4 players 2nd rd and later that went to multiple pro bowls.  

Stop giving shitty teams w shitty talent evaluators a pass when they could have picked the same players but didn't. 

[DMC]

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

As to Kittle being top five, that’s an interesting argument. I can think of three defensive players and one RB I’d take before him, but after that he’s fair game.

Well, I did say offensive players.  I was thinking of McCaffrey, Henry, and Thomas.  I think there's very good arguments for all 3 being ahead of Kittle.  But I'd definitely put him at 4th at the worst.

[DanteGabriel]

9 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Stop, just stop with this. There have been plenty of teams in the NFL to have multiple 1st round picks, extra 2nd rd picks every year and yet they don't do what he did.

He had the picks and actually drafted wisely, drafted multiple HOF players THAT OTHER TEAMS WITH BETTER DRAFT PICKS PASSED ON. In years with just his own picks he drafted wisely. In Miami he drafted 4 players 2nd rd and later that went to multiple pro bowls.  

Stop giving shitty teams w shitty talent evaluators a pass when they could have picked the same players but didn't. 

Ye gods, unwind your panties. It was a joke. Obviously he deserves credit for making the most of those picks. Too bad his talent evaluation skills didn't hold up in Miami, though.

If you think JJ gets short schrift, deploy the caps lock against your team's owner, who famously said anyone could have led that team to the Super Bowl.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, I did say offensive players.  I was thinking of McCaffrey, Henry, and Thomas.  I think there's very good arguments for all 3 being ahead of Kittle.  But I'd definitely put him at 4th at the worst.

Whoops. Yeah, CMC was the only offensive player I had clearly ahead of him. Henry is making a case though, but I’d rather have Kittle than Thomas, or any WR.

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Whoops. Yeah, CMC was the only offensive player I had clearly ahead of him. Henry is making a case though, but I’d rather have Kittle than Thomas, or any WR.

Yeah I didn't think Henry until these past three weeks.  Nor Thomas until I remembered he had 149 catches, which is ridiculous.  Both those accomplishments are hard to ignore.