The Starks

[rotting sea cow]

On 1/14/2020 at 8:18 PM, Arthur Peres said:

They lack the plot armor that Tyrion carries.

Could you explain what do you mean for "plot armor"?

 

[Arthur Peres]

3 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Could you explain what do you mean for "plot armor"?

 

The amount of sheer lucky that got him away from situations that should have killed him many times over...

Just in AGOT Tyrion should be killed when he was traveling through the mountian clans of the Vale, and should also die at the battle of the green fork when he was forced to surrender to a knight but wasn't able to respond, no to mention that he is a dwarf fighting in the van and his army was a ragtag mess, that was designed to be beat...

A Clash of Kings he once again should have been killed during the battle of blackwater, and a argument could also be made about him being killed during the KL riot.

ASoS is the biggest one with him escaping his execution.

ADoD he is once again saved from certain death by Jon Connington, and later on by Daenerys that stoped him to become lions food.

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

The amount of sheer lucky that got him away from situations that should have killed him many times over...

Just in AGOT Tyrion should be killed when he was traveling through the mountian clans of the Vale, and should also die at the battle of the green fork when he was forced to surrender to a knight but wasn't able to respond, no to mention that he is a dwarf fighting in the van and his army was a ragtag mess, that was designed to be beat...

A Clash of Kings he once again should have been killed during the battle of blackwater, and a argument could also be made about him being killed during the KL riot.

ASoS is the biggest one with him escaping his execution.

ADoD he is once again saved from certain death by Jon Connington, and later on by Daenerys that stoped him to become lions food.

This applies to all characters and one could argue that then we couldn't have any story if things are "realistic". Let's take LOTR and Frodo's journey. He should have been captured many times over before reaching Rivendel. In the end they were four very inexperienced hobbits. Imaging Tolkien finishing the book here http://www.henneth-annun.net/events_view.cfm?evid=1600 with an epilogue telling us that Sauron regained the Ring and conquered Middle Earth forever.

Did Frodo have plot armor? or it is just the author wanting to tell us a story?

And it's not like Tyrion didn't suffer any injury, loss or trauma:

- He never knew his mother and was actually accused by her sister and father of killing her

- He was born with a deformity and disability for which was mocked and abused throughout his life

- His brother betrayed him and he was forced to watch his girlfriend raped and was forced to rape her.

- He received an hideous injury during battle

- His trauma over killing his own father and girlfriend is haunting him over his journey

- He has been captured and sold to slavery

The story of Tyrion is not about whether he should be dead or not. His story Is whether he will be able to overcome all these trauma, losses, injuries and society perceptions and do something great for the humanity.

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

This applies to all characters

 

Well not the dead ones. Not the ones who are not constantly put into deadly situations and still surviving. He's a dwarf who has constantly escaped death.

 

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

And it's not like Tyrion didn't suffer any injury, loss or trauma:

That literally has nothing to do with plot armour. If anything it is evidence of it

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

 

- He was born with a deformity and disability for which was mocked and abused throughout his life

And survived, prospered even. A dwarf fighting in multiple battles and surviving eventually becomes plot armour.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

- His brother betrayed him and he was forced to watch his girlfriend raped and was forced to rape her.

This has nothing to do with plot armour, though it should be pointed out he was not forced. Tricked, but not forced.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

- He has been captured and sold to slavery

Yes. Constantly escaping death is a sign of plot armour. It is not evidence against it. Tyrion constantly surviving such situations from battles, to shipwrecks, poisoned waters, execution and so on is plot armour.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

The story of Tyrion is not about whether he should be dead or not. His story Is whether he will be able to overcome all these trauma, losses, injuries and society perceptions and do something great for the humanity.

eh? I'm not sure the last is true. What great thing do you expect him to do for humanity in the remaining two books?

 

He might redeem himself, but you may be being a little grandiose in your expectations here.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, DR Supporter said:

I said 'part of the reason' not the whole reason, but w/e.

Right, I understood, I just disagree that it was part of the reason. Not trying to offend, just discussing. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

40 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

This has nothing to do with plot armour, though it should be pointed out he was not forced. Tricked, but not forced

I think that is arguable. He was tricked about the true identity of Tysha but he wasn't "tricked" into raping her. He was pretty much forced. Because we don't have the details of that exchange that can be argued as well but seeing as how he is a child & his father is one of the most powerful men in Westeros one can see how Tyrion felt like he had no choice but to do as he was told. 

[Eternally_Theirs]

Tyrion wasn't the only one betrayed. Puppy!Robb was betrayed too, by the man who was old enough to be his father. He was fifteen at the time.

Tyrion isn't a Stark either.

[Bernie Mac]

53 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think that is arguable. He was tricked about the true identity of Tysha but he wasn't "tricked" into raping her. He was pretty much forced.

No, he was not, at least not per the books. On multiple occasions Tyrion brings it up and there is no force mentioned, no threat mentioned.

A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore.

If he was forced then why would he think he could change anything about what happened? He allowed it to happened and participated because he was told she was a whore

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her.

Another time. Tyrion never tries to shift the blame. In their society that is what whores and sex slaves are there for. We know this as he knowingly rapes the next woman he can after he learns about the truth of Tysha. The raping of the sex slave at Illyrio's shows his mindset, shows the society he lives in mindset.

"So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid."

Once again, Tyrion points out he had a choice in the matter. It was not a threat of his father that made him do it, but his own arousal.

Furthermore, his anger with Jaime makes zero sense if he had no choice in the matter. He wants Jaime dead for the lie, the lie that meant her rape.

 

Quote

 

Because we don't have the details of that exchange that can be argued as well but seeing as how he is a child

He is old enough to marry in their world. Boys as young as 13 can still rape in our world as well.

Quote

 

& his father is one of the most powerful men in Westeros

Yes. And? Tyrion was perfectly happy to marry someone and put her up in one of their properties under his father's nose.

You are trying to invent a motive that does not appear in the books. Tyrion's one of the principle POV's in the books. At no point have we got the sense that he was fear of his father, and this is after the event, not before it (when there would be less reason for him to be fearful).

 

Quote

 

one can see how Tyrion felt like he had no choice but to do as he was told. 

But he does feel like he had a choice. I've supplies the quotes, every time he brings it up he is clear he had a choice.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he was not, at least not per the books. On multiple occasions Tyrion brings it up and there is no force mentioned, no threat mentioned.

A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore.

He is saying "I'm sorry I let them rape you" but realistically he could not have stopped them from raping her & he isn't the one that ordered it. He is taking responsibility for something that isn't his. He is not to blame for Tywin ordering the soldiers to rape her. He likely feels some guilt here after finding out she actually wasn't a whore because now he realizes this woman has done absolutely nothing wrong to him. It bothered him even when he believed her a whore but he had the anger of being lied to & tricked to lean on. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

If he was forced then why would he think he could change anything about what happened? He allowed it to happened and participated because he was told she was a whore

How would he have stopped it? Tywin ordered the soldiers to rape her & they did. What would Tyrion have be able to do about that? He has some control over his own actions but not over the actions of the soldiers. 

It doesn't really make any sense for him to have participated because she was a whore. Who would want to have sex with a woman that has just been raped by multiple men, likely crying & distraught, likely bruised & battered, & most certainly not a willing participant. I take your post to mean he raped her because he thought she deserved it, as punishment for tricking him, which I whole heartedly disagree with. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her.

Again, the guardsmen wouldn't have needed Tyrion's help. This is one woman against 100 guardsmen. What would they need his help with? Possibly he helped them find her or called her to the room prior to knowing what his father was going to do & that's why he says he "helped" them. Just a possibility but I don't think he can mean it in the form you attribute to it. Either he is taking responsibility out of guilt or he means something different because there was no help he could offer them & there was nothing he could do to stop them. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Another time. Tyrion never tries to shift the blame. In their society that is what whores and sex slaves are there for. We know this as he knowingly rapes the next woman he can after he learns about the truth of Tysha. The raping of the sex slave at Illyrio's shows his mindset, shows the society he lives in mindset.

He loved & married this woman. It doesn't just "shut off" because someone tells you she isn't who she seems. He was likely embarrassed, angry, bitter, & broken hearted but he still didn't switch from feeling like she was his wife to thinking of her as just another sex slave like a light switch. 

Even the guardsmen, who probably didn't care a thing for Tysha likely recognized this was uncalled for & heinous. I would doubt all of them wanted to go through with it either, but they did, because they were commanded to. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

"So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid."

He is stating that he got an erection even though he shouldn't have. Something any young boy knows is often out of their control. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Once again, Tyrion points out he had a choice in the matter. It was not a threat of his father that made him do it, but his own arousal.

Furthermore, his anger with Jaime makes zero sense if he had no choice in the matter. He wants Jaime dead for the lie, the lie that meant her rape.

Well, he did have a choice, to defy his father or not. The question is what were the repercussions going to be if he did defy his father. There is not one single chance Tywin let's Tyrion get away with defying him unscathed. I don't think he is saying his own arousal "made" him do it either. He likely felt shame at the erection @wallflower explains this nicely in another thread. 

I don't understand why his anger with Jaime is dependent upon him having a choice in the matter? His brother lied to him & allowed him to believe a woman that loved him & married him feigned that love & was a paid prostitute. Whether he has a choice in what he does later or not he would be angry with his brother for lying to him. He has spent years believing he is unlovable, in large part to the fact that when he was convinced someone did love him his brother told him it wasn't true. To then find out it actually was when make anyone angry no matter the outcome. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He is old enough to marry in their world. Boys as young as 13 can still rape in our world as well.

Yeah they can rape but IRL if someones father is telling them they have to & so they do it's being forced. It's not the exact same in Westeros as IRL but Tyrion is still young enough for his father to hold some power over him. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

es. And? Tyrion was perfectly happy to marry someone and put her up in one of their properties under his father's nose.

So? Because he defied his father in that means he was able to defy his father in the raping? I don't think so. I don't think we have enough information to say he could or couldn't have defied his father with the raping but the fact that Tywin is his father, he is young, & Tywin is one of the most powerful men in Westeros all give information that leads to him being unable to defy him. Even as an adult Tyrion will defy Tywin when he can, but he can't always. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

You are trying to invent a motive that does not appear in the books. Tyrion's one of the principle POV's in the books. At no point have we got the sense that he was fear of his father, and this is after the event, not before it (when there would be less reason for him to be fearful).

I'm not trying to invent anything, I'm just giving you my take on the situation. I'm guessing there are probably quotes that show Tyrion was fearful of his father's wrath &/or consequences though. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

But he does feel like he had a choice. I've supplies the quotes, every time he brings it up he is clear he had a choice.

Yeah it appears he takes some responsibility for things that are not his responsibility & that he had no power to change but that just leads me to believe further that he had no power to change his own actions either. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

snip

I'm not derailing someone's elses thread to argue about this. If you are that passionate about the subject then start a new thread and I will reply to your posts, but it's a little disrespectful by both of us to hijack this topic with paragraph after paragraph of unrelated material.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not derailing someone's elses thread to argue about this. If you are that passionate about the subject then start a new thread and I will reply to your posts, but it's a little disrespectful by both of us to hijack this topic with paragraph after paragraph of unrelated material.

You're right, I'm not that passionate about it but there is another thread where it's been discussed a little if  you care to drop by. 

[Eternally_Theirs]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right, I understood, I just disagree that it was part of the reason. Not trying to offend, just discussing. 

Well, if Theon truly saw Robb as his best friend, then he wouldn't have done anything to hurt him, now would he?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, DR Supporter said:

Well, if Theon truly saw Robb as his best friend, then he wouldn't have done anything to hurt him, now would he?

Ideally, no but we do often hurt those we love. Intentionally or unintentionally. 

[Eternally_Theirs]

20 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ideally, no but we do often hurt those we love. Intentionally or unintentionally. 

In fact, Theon is the real mastermind behind the Red Wedding, because without his actions, it wouldn't have happened, for there'd be no reason for it to happen. Even Roose lampshaded it in canon.

Theon: You.....owe me, my Lord? What do you owe me?
Roose: The North. The Starks were defeated the moment you took Winterfell. All of this is just a mere scuffle for the spoils of war.

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Stannis didn't matter?

They were pretty good indications from book one that the Starks were heading to a tragedy. Cat's first chapter, Bran's dream, Ned's actions, etc. They just continued trough the books.

Stannis started on AGOT as a shadow looming large over characters decisions. And they were also clear indications that Stannis is more important than all of them kings. Yes, I could have seen that, even though not necessarily t

 

 

You are a better foreshadow reader than I, Man.  I thought Stannis ran scared 1st read.  As to your 1st query, no, Stannis was not an original "player" insofar as mass support went.   That came later and then he was defeated.   Poor Stannis was the victim of incredibly bad timing.  Gotta agree that the Stark tragedies have been set up from nearly the get go here.  I'm still not convinced Stannis will amount to King, but he seems to have pulled his head out of his sense of duty to get down to actually helping at least part of the realm.   I'm still hoping he gets an amazing triumph before he is tragically killed off.   

[Nagini's Neville]

When it comes to plot armor, I'd also say, that a lot of the major characters have quite a bit of plot armor. There were multiple moments when Arya and Jon and Bran could have died. Especially Arya, but then half of their family did actually die.

Sansa has plot armor, when it comes to getting raped or escaping horrible arranged marriages. And I pray to god, that this armor gets so thick she even won't be sexually assaulted anymore  that would be great

[TedBear]

9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

When it comes to plot armor, I'd also say, that a lot of the major characters have quite a bit of plot armor. There were multiple moments when Arya and Jon and Bran could have died. Especially Arya, but then half of their family did actually die

Plot armor is just bullshit imo, of course all major characters in the future of the plot will wear armor. Mainly in anime forums, they really have a complex with that, when you don't like the protagonists it's extremely annoying, but Goku would never save the earth without armor. 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, TedBear said:

Plot armor is just bullshit imo, of course all major characters in the future of the plot will wear armor. Mainly in anime forums, they really have a complex with that, when you don't like the protagonists it's extremely annoying, but Goku would never save the earth without armor. 

haha have literary no idea what you are talking about 

[Hugorfonics]

On 1/15/2020 at 9:46 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. I think Theon betrayed him because his father made him feel like shit for being held as a ward for all those years - like that was his fault. 

It certainly wasnt his fault, there's only two people to blame.

On 1/15/2020 at 9:46 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. I think Theon betrayed him because his father made him feel like shit for being held as a ward for all those years - like that was his fault. It's completely naive of Balon to think Theon could live so many years with another family & not pick up some of their ways & traditions. Balon made him feel as if he was betraying his own blood by being friends & allies with Robb & that is ultimately why he betrayed him. Because he believed or was made to believe that his loyalties should lie with his blood. 

While it should have lied with his jailors?

I agree that Robb was betrayed, as was Bran and Ricky (and we see how uncomfortable Theon was with that whole situation). However Stark itself, the fortress called Winterfell threw the first stone at Theon

Balon sold Theon to Winterfell, similar to those whod wish sell their childs souls to satan. Theon decided to buy it back, by paying for it with the iron price

On 1/16/2020 at 12:18 PM, DR Supporter said:

In fact, Theon is the real mastermind behind the Red Wedding, because without his actions, it wouldn't have happened, for there'd be no reason for it to happen. Even Roose lampshaded it in canon.

Theon: You.....owe me, my Lord? What do you owe me?
Roose: The North. The Starks were defeated the moment you took Winterfell. All of this is just a mere scuffle for the spoils of war.

Almost all roads lead to Sansa Stark, though many pass through Theon. Regardless, the work of the RW was Frey Roose and Tywin. Nobody else deserves the shade of being labeled "mastermind behind the RW"

On 1/16/2020 at 8:14 PM, TedBear said:

Plot armor is just bullshit imo, of course all major characters in the future of the plot will wear armor. Mainly in anime forums, they really have a complex with that, when you don't like the protagonists it's extremely annoying, but Goku would never save the earth without armor. 

Its such a silly concept. Especially when we consider Goku, like how many times he died Raditz, Cell, maybe one of the Buus, Im sure other times too. Which leaves us wondering, how good can saiyan armor be if they keep dying? 

Or, whats with the concept of plot armor when you can just collect some dragonballs? So Tyrions got plot armor, why cuz hes the second main character? Sounds like Cat, she was the second main character, until she died and was thusly given plot armor?

I agree with you; plot armor is just bullshit