The Starks

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

While it should have lied with his jailors?

Not necessarily. I just feel like Theon was in a tricky situation there & it was unfair for Balon to think his loyalties should lie with him when he treats him so bad. It would be understandable, I think, if Theon's loyalties did lie with his jailers in this case considering they treated him much better than his father but he wasn't under any obligation to be loyal to them. 

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

agree that Robb was betrayed, as was Bran and Ricky (and we see how uncomfortable Theon was with that whole situation). However Stark itself, the fortress called Winterfell threw the first stone at Theon

Yeah I agree. Robb, Bran, & Rickon weren't his jailers. Ned was so yeah it's understandable that he was so torn about the whole thing. 

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Balon sold Theon to Winterfell, similar to those whod wish sell their childs souls to satan. Theon decided to buy it back, by paying for it with the iron price

This is complicated to me because on the one hand, like you say, Theon was paying the Iron price for it. I wouldn't have near the issue with it if he were taking it from Ned though. On the other hand he is taking it from Bran who hasn't done anything wrong to him & his mistreatment of Hodor & the townsfolk was absolutely uncalled for. 

[Hugorfonics]

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not necessarily. I just feel like Theon was in a tricky situation

Totally. One thats jampacked with abduction, abandonment, betrayal and honor vs duty, and all other sorts of traumatic issues

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not necessarily. I just feel like Theon was in a tricky situation there & it was unfair for Balon to think his loyalties should lie with him when he treats him so bad. 

Badly like the abandonment? I suppose, it was at gun point though, and without a father life wouldn't have been great for child Theon anyway. Its not the greatest leap of faith to think Theon would relish revenge on his captors. (Badly like belittlement and condescending with the occasional slap, not great lol, but not truly the worst parenting. I think he was trying to help in his Balon way)

39 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

. It would be understandable, I think, if Theon's loyalties did lie with his jailers in this case considering they treated him much better than his father 

Idk. Ned and Cat did not treat him right. (The kids were cool, but theyre cool kids lol) Like abandonments an issue, but so is abduction. Living your life a foot away from Ice, especially when its swinging, scary stuff. 

47 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah I agree. Robb, Bran, & Rickon weren't his jailers. Ned was so yeah it's understandable that he was so torn about the whole thing. 

Yea, kids were cool. Dealt a bad hand, like Theon himself. Maybe its the castle, I used to wish Stannis to lose to Roose so he wont burn the weirwood, but now I'm thinking just tear the whole fucking building down lol... maybe,  sad stuff.

But yea, sometimes we hurt the people we love, sad stuff.

55 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 This is complicated to me because on the one hand, like you say, Theon was paying the Iron price for it. I wouldn't have near the issue with it if he were taking it from Ned though. On the other hand he is taking it from Bran who hasn't done anything wrong to him & his mistreatment of Hodor & the townsfolk was absolutely uncalled for. 

I dont think he was that bad with the townsfolk, he at least tried to not be that bad, well with most. But, its a cruel classest world where smallfolk are pawns. 

No doubt, if he took it from Ned itd truly be a heros song, instead he took it from a crippled child. Scummy. Basically told Bran to relive his own scummy life. Because even princes are treated like smallfolk pawns. 

Still, that other hand. In the game of thrones to buy back your honor and freedom by paying the iron price against the realms and yours most ancient foe was a tremendous achievement. (Which lasted like 5 min)

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Totally. One thats jampacked with abduction, abandonment, betrayal and honor vs duty, and all other sorts of traumatic issues

Absolutely.

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Badly like the abandonment? I suppose, it was at gun point though, and without a father life wouldn't have been great for child Theon anyway. Its not the greatest leap of faith to think Theon would relish revenge on his captors. (Badly like belittlement and condescending with the occasional slap, not great lol, but not truly the worst parenting. I think he was trying to help in his Balon way)

Kind of the abandonment. He didn't have a choice to give Theon to Ned but I would assume he would have been allowed to write Theon, maybe visit him. That would have went a long way for Theon. Instead Balon truly abandoned him to another family & pretended he didn't exist pretty much. Theon had (presumably) only Maester Luwin to teach him the ways of his own culture, the Iron Born & then to make matters worse when Theon did come home Balon acted like it was all Theon's fault that he didn't behave or present himself like an Iron Born. Well, of course he didn't, he's had almost no influence from them his entire childhood. 

I understand Balon being leery of Theon's loyalties & even only giving him a small task at first to prove himself but it seems (at least to Theon) that it wasn't given to him as a test of sorts but as a way to humiliate him further as punishment for something he had no control over. 

We've certainly seen worse parents I'm just saying from Theon's perspective Balon was quite an asshole & didn't really invite much loyalty. 

But maybe Balon had the right of it & I'm completely wrong because Theon did decide to lay his loyalties with the IB. 

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ned and Cat did not treat him right. (The kids were cool, but theyre cool kids lol) Like abandonments an issue, but so is abduction. Living your life a foot away from Ice, especially when its swinging, scary stuff

Well they didn't treat him as one of their own but even Theon says Ned was fair with him. As far as we know Ned & Cat never slapped him or belittled him so that gives them a step up on Balon.

Ned was certainly holding him hostage though & even nice & fair hostage situations are still hostage situations so yeah, I get it wasn't great for Theon in either place. 

24 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, kids were cool. Dealt a bad hand, like Theon himself. Maybe its the castle, I used to wish Stannis to lose to Roose so he wont burn the weirwood, but now I'm thinking just tear the whole fucking building down lol... maybe,  sad stuff.

But yea, sometimes we hurt the people we love, sad stuff.

Ahh me too! Stannis had better not burn down the weirwood or I'll cry. 

I think the reason is was so bad for Theon is because he loved the Starks but "knew" he should love his family & in a sense he probably does. 

25 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

dont think he was that bad with the townsfolk, he at least tried to not be that bad, well with most. But, its a cruel classest world where smallfolk are pawns

Letting his men beat Hodor for Hodoring is heart breaking to me. Like this is someone Theon knows, grew up with, he knows Hodor can't help it. It was unnecessarily cruel. 

26 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No doubt, if he took it from Ned itd truly be a heros song, instead he took it from a crippled child. Scummy. Basically told Bran to relive his own scummy life. Because even princes are treated like smallfolk pawns

For sure. I wouldn't agree with Theon killing Ned but taking the castle would be a bit of poetic Justice for Theon. 

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Still, that other hand. In the game of thrones to buy back your honor and freedom by paying the iron price against the realms and yours most ancient foe was a tremendous achievement. (Which lasted like 5 min

Yep, the game of thrones is a cruel, unfair game & even though Theon tried to play it the rough & tough way it still didn't work out for him. 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think he was that bad with the townsfolk, he at least tried to not be that bad, well with most. But, its a cruel classest world where smallfolk are pawns. 

Quote

 

"He sent for Kyra, kicked shut the door, climbed on top of her, and fucked the wench with a fury he’d never known was in him. By the time he finished, she was sobbing, her neck and breasts covered with bruises and bite marks. Theon shoved her from the bed and threw her a blanket. “Get out.” Yet even then, he could not sleep."

 

 I hate Theon!! So much! Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one, who cares for all those raped and abused girls. Like there are so many of them: Shae, Lollys, the girl beheaded by the mountain, the 13- year old raped by him an his rats, Elia, Jeyne Poole, the 12- year old raped by Rogue, Pia, Kyra, Craster's daughters, Victarion's wife, very prostitute, even Nissa Nissa the list goes on and on and on. And they are all voiceless as well of course. All just used to show how evil a protagonist is or how cruel the world, but never given a voice of their own. We got a broken men speech, but never a broken woman one.

Theon is a rapist and he allowed the murder of two children. I certainly don't wish what happened to him on anyone, but it also doesn't make me care for him any more. I mostly care for Jeyne.  

 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

While it should have lied with his jailors?

Because as Theon later realizes, his jailors were ten times the family his real one never was. And Balon  and his kids were not family at all to him.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 I hate Theon!! So much! Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one, who cares for all those raped and abused girls. Like there are so many of them: Shae, Lollys, the girl beheaded by the mountain, the 13- year old raped by him an his rats, Elia, Jeyne Poole, the 12- year old raped by Rogue, Pia, Kyra, Craster's daughters, Victarion's wife, very prostitute, even Nissa Nissa the list goes on and on and on. And they are all voiceless as well of course. All just used to show how evil a protagonist is or how cruel the world, but never given a voice of their own. We got a broken men speech, but never a broken woman one.

Theon is a rapist and he allowed the murder of two children. I certainly don't wish what happened to him on anyone, but it also doesn't make me care for him any more. I mostly care for Jeyne.  

 

Yeah for sure. I hated Theon too until the "Reek" chapters where I just couldn't take anymore. I just thought for God's sake let that man die. The level of torture he has to endure in beyond imaginable. 

Pre-Reek Theon is an arrogant idiot, rapist, murderer. I could never condone any of that. But the actual taking of WF in & of it's self I understand to a point. He was in a very tough situation with his father & Robb. 

[Nagini's Neville]

19 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. I hated Theon too until the "Reek" chapters where I just couldn't take anymore. I just thought for God's sake let that man die. The level of torture he has to endure in beyond imaginable. 

Pre-Reek Theon is an arrogant idiot, rapist, murderer. I could never condone any of that. But the actual taking of WF in & of it's self I understand to a point. He was in a very tough situation with his father & Robb. 

I'm heartless, I know. Just wanted to vent a bit. Doesn't contribute at all to your discussion. I just think he was absolutely horrendous to the townfolk. He is a rapist and a child murderer. So all I can see is a black onion

Quote

 

“If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion."

 

And I haven't reread the Reek chapters in years, so yes, I'm totally biased. But yes, I'd be fine with Theon's death. Maybe he could die instead of Pod? Okay I'll stop now.

[frenin]

22 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm heartless,

At all, i dislike him so much, no one, well Tywin, deserves to be Reek but yet again, everything Theon does enrages me. And doing for someone he knows doesn't give a fuck about him. I dislike to the core the IB, the Hoares was the worst bane it could ever happen to them, a pity that Harwyn and Harren followed there. 

[Hugorfonics]

49 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Absolutely.

Kind of the abandonment. He didn't have a choice to give Theon to Ned but I would assume he would have been allowed to write Theon, maybe visit him. That would have went a long way for Theon. Instead Balon truly abandoned him to another family & pretended he didn't exist pretty much.

I guess he could have wrote him, sent ravens to WFs maester (though he doesn't trust maesters cuz theyre conniving at worst and useless at best to which Balon learned personally through the death of his brother). Idk, that seems strange to me, to keep an open dialogue with his sons killer. Sure he could have been like "this letters not for you Ned but for Theon" but you know Ned (and Luwin) would read it, plus it looks kinda soft in the eyes of his constituents

51 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Theon had (presumably) only Maester Luwin to teach him the ways of his own culture, the Iron Born & then to make matters worse when Theon did come home Balon acted like it was all Theon's fault that he didn't behave or present himself like an Iron Born. Well, of course he didn't, he's had almost no influence from them his entire childhood. 

Theon was taken at, like what, 10? He still remembered his heritage, he was like Bran or Aryas age. 

And he came across to Balon pretty disrespectfully, for sure we can understand Theon for not thinking about it, but I think we can understand Balons anger too

56 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I understand Balon being leery of Theon's loyalties & even only giving him a small task at first to prove himself but it seems (at least to Theon) that it wasn't given to him as a test of sorts but as a way to humiliate him further as punishment for something he had no control over. 

Word. I think Theon was mistaken. Balon had reason to distrust Theon, plus had no idea of his prowess in contrast to Asha or Victarion

58 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We've certainly seen worse parents I'm just saying from Theon's perspective Balon was quite an asshole & didn't really invite much loyalty. 

But maybe Balon had the right of it & I'm completely wrong because Theon did decide to lay his loyalties with the IB. 

Idk, I think loyalty pulled Theon in two different directions but revenge in just one. Defeating WF and regaining his honor was what pushed him to his actions

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well they didn't treat him as one of their own but even Theon says Ned was fair with him. As far as we know Ned & Cat never slapped him or belittled him so that gives them a step up on Balon.

Ned was certainly holding him hostage though & even nice & fair hostage situations are still hostage situations so yeah, I get it wasn't great for Theon in either place. 

I disagree, being raised under the sword and clearly not being raised as a foster son is worse then a few slaps. (Not condoning slapping kids, my folks did that, it wasnt great lol, I wouldn't do that to mine, but I dont think its like a deal breaker, being belittled for fucking up either, but yea not great)

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think the reason is was so bad for Theon is because he loved the Starks but "knew" he should love his family & in a sense he probably does. 

I think he loved Robb like anyone would love their best friend. I love my peoples too. For the rest of the papa Stark he had conflicting views. He thought of him as like, his care giver too, but he thinks of fucking Ramsay like that too sometimes

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 Letting his men beat Hodor for Hodoring is heart breaking to me. Like this is someone Theon knows, grew up with, he knows Hodor can't help it. It was unnecessarily cruel. 

Very cruel

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 I hate Theon!! So much! Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one, who cares for all those raped and abused girls. Like there are so many of them: Shae, Lollys, the girl beheaded by the mountain, the 13- year old raped by him an his rats, Elia, Jeyne Poole, the 12- year old raped by Rogue, Pia, Kyra, Craster's daughters, Victarion's wife, very prostitute, even Nissa Nissa the list goes on and on and on. And they are all voiceless as well of course. All just used to show how evil a protagonist is or how cruel the world, but never given a voice of their own. We got a broken men speech, but never a broken woman one.

Theon is a rapist and he allowed the murder of two children. I certainly don't wish what happened to him on anyone, but it also doesn't make me care for him any more. I mostly care for Jeyne.  

 

Yea Theon was a dick. Like the absolute worst. Like Hercules or Kylo Ren. The road to redemption should always be available and celebrated when reached.

(Vics wife, like salt wives are rape victims? Maybe, I feel like he married her for a reason and she was down as well. With Euron though, she came to him)

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Because as Theon later realizes, his jailors were ten times the family his real one never was. And Balon  and his kids were not family at all to him.

But Greyjoy still was, and Stark can never be.

32 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 So all I can see is a black onion

And I haven't reread the Reek chapters in years, so yes, I'm totally biased. But yes, I'd be fine with Theon's death. Maybe he could die instead of Pod? Okay I'll stop now.

We are not onions. 

You gotta reread them! Probably my favorite povs in asoiaf is Theon adwd. So complex!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

34 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm heartless, I know. Just wanted to vent a bit. Doesn't contribute at all to your discussion. I just think he was absolutely horrendous to the townfolk. He is a rapist and a child murderer. So all I can see is a black onion

Not heartless at all. Quite the opposite. You hate Theon because you aren't heartless. He is all you say & that's a hard thing to get over. 

35 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I haven't reread the Reek chapters in years, so yes, I'm totally biased. But yes, I'd be fine with Theon's death. Maybe he could die instead of Pod? Okay I'll stop now

Yeah so part of my sympathy for Theon is that I am currently re-reading the Reek chapters. They were hard to read the first time but reading them back to back is overwhelming. It's just so bad. I would be ok with him dying, just all the torture is too much 

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

At all, i dislike him so much, no one, well Tywin, deserves to be Reek but yet again, everything Theon does enrages me. And doing for someone he knows doesn't give a fuck about him. I dislike to the core the IB, the Hoares was the worst bane it could ever happen to them, a pity that Harwyn and Harren followed there. 

I hate the IB too. So much. Except for Asha

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But Greyjoy still was, and Stark can never be.

Greyjoy never was, in any sense of the word. And the only one who presented a threat to Theon was Ned, with him gone... His sons treated him like a brother, he payed them with treason, drove them from their lands, pillaging their castle and its people and crippling the war effort, forever, of someone he himseld believed as more a brother than any other of his father's loins. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

We are not onions. 

We are. With layers. Just like ogres. And if we are to rotten all the good parts won't save us anymore, just like with an onion  Melisandre is so wise.

Quote

The road to redemption should always be available and celebrated when reached.

Nope, there is a limit to what you can do. You can have your redemption, but I won't care anymore. I'll grant you prison, though, like you would get in my world, if caught  

Quote

Vics wife, like salt wives are rape victims? Maybe, I feel like he married her for a reason and she was down as well. With Euron though, she came to him

I said raped and abused and I'd put murdered under "abused", if that's okay with you? LOL

Do we certainly know it wasn't rape, though, I don't remember. Feel like that's impossible to know, Euron is... horrible 

But thanks for reminding me I forgot to include all the salt wives.

 

[Gingin]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He is a rapist and a child murderer. So all I can see is a black onion

I do not like, justify nor condone his behavior towards the captain’s daughter, Kyra and the family of the miller. He was horrible.

Having said that, we have to remember that he’s the one who saved Bran from the wildlings: he was not completely rotten before meeting Ramsay. Also, he was Robb’s friend: surely, this must mean something, otherwise the Young Wolf and Greywind would have loathed him. He’s a complex character with a lot of flaws, but so are Jaime, Jorah, Tyrion, Sandor, Bobby B and many more.

Quote

A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.

People are complicated, not entirely black and not entirely white.

 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, Gingin said:

A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.

Where does that come from?

[Gingin]

GRRM, ACOK

Stannis

[Nagini's Neville]

@Gingin there is no right and wrong here of course  

Quote

People are complicated, not entirely black and not entirely white.

I agree. The problem is just for me, that I agree with Melisandre's onion metaphor.

Quote

 

“If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion."

 

Of course there is still good and bad to a human being. But if the bad deeds were to dark, to horrible, I'll never care about the good deeds anymore ever again. No matter how many and how great they are, they'll never should be rewarded, because the reward for the bad deeds should always outweigh them, if the bad deeds were just to dark. If you cross a certain line it's over and even, if you are just half rotten, you are completely rotten to me. IMO with certain acts human beings take away part of their rights, which are granted to every other member of a functioning society. But it actually has nothing to do with punishment or anything like that, just with my personal opinion of those people.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Greyjoy never was, in any sense of the word. And the only one who presented a threat to Theon was Ned, with him gone... His sons treated him like a brother, he payed them with treason, drove them from their lands, pillaging their castle and its people and crippling the war effort, forever, of someone he himseld believed as more a brother than any other of his father's loins. 

 

Complicated stuff.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

We are. With layers. Just like ogres. And if we are to rotten all the good parts won't save us anymore, just like with an onion  Melisandre is so wise.

While Shrek was a fool? He was rotten and mean, but at the end, him and his friends were dancing to Smashmouth!

Your heart and history may be dark, but I believe one layer of goodness can shine.

Quote

"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze.

(Totally taking wise Melis words out of context, but, fuck it )

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Nope, there is a limit to what you can do. You can have your redemption, but I won't care anymore. I'll grant you prison, though, like you would get in my world, if caught  

Hm, idk. I agree theres a limit, at least for myself, but idk if there should be.

Theon can still do good in this world, and it seems a shame rob the world of goodness because of the past

Quote

"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . ."

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."

 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I said raped and abused and I'd put murdered under "abused", if that's okay with you? LOL

Do we certainly know it wasn't rape, though, I don't remember. Feel like that's impossible to know, Euron is... horrible 

But thanks for reminding me I forgot to include all the salt wives.

Yea abused works lol. I just don't see why Vic would marry her unless there was some type of feelings going on when he could have had her either way, like as a concubine. 

Salt wives is certainly very polygamist with a hierarchy so that's pretty awful, but I dont think its fair to write off every salt wife as a rape victim. Like its still marriage, right? Im sure Oberyns girlfriend would have loved the stability. Or Darrio who has no interest in being king, just her lover. 

And Euron didnt rape her (but you left out the dusky women)

Quote

Victarion looked at his fists. "She gave me horns. I had no choice." Had it been known, men would have laughed at me, as the Crow's Eye laughed when I confronted him. "She came to me wet and willing," he had boasted. "It seems Victarion is big everywhere but where it matters."

 

[Nagini's Neville]

Quote

Victarion looked at his fists. "She gave me horns. I had no choice." Had it been known, men would have laughed at me, as the Crow's Eye laughed when I confronted him. "She came to me wet and willing," he had boasted. "It seems Victarion is big everywhere but where it matters."

So that is your evidence, that it wasn't rape, because Euron said so? To bad she is dead an won't be able to tell her side of the story

[Gingin]

I believe that the right to life entails a lot of other rights and the right to hope is one of them. This right should be conceded even to lifers: they should have the possibility of social rehabilitation and of the review of their penalty (which doesn’t necessarily mean a pardon), otherwise it would be like denying an aspect of their own humanity.

@Hugorfonics wait, that’s the opinion of Euron. We will never know the whole truth unless GRRM decides to write about that again.