The Starks

[Elegant Woes]

The Starks are a bunch of saints if you compare them to the Lannisters and Targaryens. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

48 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Some of the posts here are just so... loaded w/ vicious hatred it’s scary. And then on top of the hatred, there’s posts chockablock full of inaccuracies and made up shit fan fic. I can’t even. I mean, Starks warging into wolves and hunting down the small folk?

The thing is, these haters make it so bloody easy it’s not even funny. 

Don't forget they are cannibals for warging into their wolves & hunting down the smallfolk. 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

And this destructive mindset is present in little Arya Stark and Lady Stoneheart.  They are just as responsible for the mess in Westeros as are the Lannisters and the Greyjoys.  

Arya is not even in Westeros.... but whatever, I'm tired LOL

[Hugorfonics]

14 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

The Starks are a bunch of saints if you compare them to the Lannisters and Targaryens. 

No family is filled with saints, nor monsters. To think otherwise is strictly stereotyping

Quote

The Hound's mouth twitched. "Do you take me for my brother? Is being born Clegane a crime?"

Sure some Targs, Lannisters and Starks played the game strictly for the honor of their house and other selfish reasons, but others played for justice. Stark did

Quote

When everyone was shouting King in the North, King in the North, I told myself . . . swore to myself . . . that I would be a good king, as honorable as Father, strong, just, loyal to my friends and brave when I faced my enemies

Lannister did

Quote

"So what will you do, m'lord, now that you're the Hand of the King?" Shae asked him as he cupped that warm sweet flesh.

"Something Cersei will never expect," Tyrion murmured softly against her slender neck. "I'll do . . . justice."

And Targaryen did

Quote

"Some kings make themselves. Robert did."

"He was no true king," Dany said scornfully. "He did no justice. Justice . . . that's what kings are for."

 

[Elegant Woes]

@Hugorfonics I didn't say the Starks are saints. Just in comparison to Lannisters and Targaryens and that is the truth. The Starklings made their fair share morally grey choices in live but they are a lighter shade of grey when you compare it to the two other family I mentioned. No doubt that this a conscious decision of GRRM. After all at the end of the day the Starks (Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran) are the heroes of the story. This is a fantasy story and no matter how much deconstructing George is doing he will retain the core message the Fantasy genre is all about: good triumphing over evil. So the Starks are kinda required to be morally upright compared to the other families. 

[Hugorfonics]

32 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Hugorfonics I didn't say the Starks are saints. Just in comparison to Lannisters and Targaryens and that is the truth. The Starklings made their fair share morally grey choices in live but they are a lighter shade of grey when you compare it to the two other family I mentioned. No doubt that this a conscious decision of GRRM. After all at the end of the day the Starks (Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran) are the heroes of the story. This is a fantasy story and no matter how much deconstructing George is doing he will retain the core message the Fantasy genre is all about: good triumphing over evil. So the Starks are kinda required to be morally upright compared to the other families. 

I feel like, along with the Stark kids,  Tyrion and Dany are the heros too. 

Quote

"—I know who the dwarf is, and what he is." Her black eyes turned to Tyrion, hard as stone. "Kinslayer, kingslayer, murderer, turncloak. Lannister." She made the last a curse.

And what is Tyrion if not Lannister? Whats Dany if not Targ?

Quote

If she was not her father's daughter, who was she?

The story centers around Winterfell, but its bigger then that.

As far as grey heros go I find it interesting that Dany is sickened by her order of crucifixion as Tyrion is over Tysha and Shae. While Arya forgets why stealing is wrong and is now graduating to murdering, and Bran knew to keep it a secret the first time he warged a human. The kids are like Sansa who has yet to feel responsible or remorse for their actions

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The kids are like Sansa who has yet to feel responsible or remorse for their actions

man, George has said she already does! You're never listening- really!

[Nagini's Neville]

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar an orange is a wonderful fruit  And I'm happy you chose it for yourself. But please consider, that you will give up an "onion's weapon", if you change your identity. Making ppl cry is not a bad think at all. And an orange has only one layer and tastes pretty good. So you might get eaten quickly. But it is your choice, therefore I'll support you in it.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

23 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar an orange is a wonderful fruit  And I'm happy you chose it for yourself. But please consider, that you will give up an "onion's weapon", if you change your identity. Making ppl cry is not a bad think at all. And an orange has only one layer and tastes pretty good. So you might get eaten quickly. But it is your choice, therefore I'll support you in it.

Haha!! Thanks! Maybe I'll reconsider my onion identification. You make some pretty good points

[Mystical]

56 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

As far as grey heros go I find it interesting that Dany is sickened by her order of crucifixion as Tyrion is over Tysha and Shae. While Arya forgets why stealing is wrong and is now graduating to murdering, and Bran knew to keep it a secret the first time he warged a human. The kids are like Sansa who has yet to feel responsible or remorse for their actions

Lets conveniently leave out the shit that Dany (and her family) and Tyrion (and his family) have done. And I'm just talking about the current story. The Starks at least aren't rapists, in fact they are the ones who get raped (I consider what happened with Ygritte/Jeyne rape) or threatened with it (a day in the life of Sansa Stark). They don't hack people into pieces and feed them to others (despite what the tv show did). They don't hand over people who are inconvenient to mad scientists. Their life goal isn't to rape their sister. They don't send people to terrorize the smallfolk (Gregor says hi). They don't want to have sex with children or threaten children with rape or demolish the living places of the smallfolk or arm the Taliban out of spite (Tyrion says hi). How is Slaver's Bay doing? Dany has been a wonderful ruler with absolutely no mistakes and not based her entire conquest on hypocrisy (being against slavery while keeping slaves herself and taking a cut off slavery that she allows) because Slaver's Bay is nothing but beta-testing for her actual goal. The less said about Aerys and Rheagar the better.

Just off the top of my head. And btw hilarious, Tyrion sickened over Shae? HE murdered HER for NO reason (and no, testifying against him is not a reason to murder her...she owed him nothing).

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Just off the top of my head. And btw hilarious, Tyrion sickened over Shae? HE murdered HER for NO reason (and no, testifying against him is not a reason to murder her...she owed him nothing).

 

And yes, the Starks aren't rapists and torturers or child murderers, which is a huge plus in this messed up world and sets them apart from a lot of other characters 

[Elegant Woes]

I think it's debatable whether Dany and Tyrion are heroes. There's enough evidence to suggest otherwise. In Bran's chapters we see both Summer and Shaggydog respond negatively to any mention of dragons. Plus wolves are presented in a negative light in Dany's chapters. This juxtaposition of the dragons and wolves could be a hint to a clash between the Starks and Dany. 

As for Tyrion. His ADWD chapters are prove enough to show what direction he is heading. Plus I will never forget the huge contrast between Ned and Tyrion when they sit on the Iron Throne. Ned thinks how dangerous the iron throne is and needs to be wary of the power associated with it. Tyrion though rather enjoys how powerful he feels when he sits on it. Also we shouldn't forget his marriage with Sansa. Once the meet again you know they are bound to be clash once a possible annulment is brought up. Sansa wants to get out of their marriage and Tyrion, the bitter man he is, will never agree. That makes him her enemy and by extension the entire Stark family. Jon, Arya and Bran would side with their sister. So we should expect a Tyrion vs. Starks fight too. 

In conclusion I would say that Tyrion and Dany are most likely the "villain us a hero of the other side," that George loves so much.

[Bernie Mac]

Just now, Elegant Woes said:

I think it's debatable whether Dany and Tyrion are heroes. There's enough evidence to suggest otherwise. In Bran's chapters we see both Summer and Shaggydog respond negatively to any mention of dragons. Plus wolves are presented in a negative light in Dany's chapters. This juxtaposition of the dragons and wolves could be a hint to a clash between the Starks and Dany.

Why do Direwolves determine who is good or bad? Who is a 'hero' or not? This is not a case of everyone on the Starks side being a hero and everyone against them/with their own interests not.

The Direwolves are protective of their masters, that does not mean they determine who is a hero and who is not.

[Elegant Woes]

It's not the Direwolves alone though. In Dany's chapters wolves are presented in a negative light too. Besides I never said that everything is set in stone. I did say it could be a hint not that it was a fact. 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

man, George has said she already does! You're never listening- really!

He said this in the books?

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

Lets conveniently leave out the shit that Dany (and her family) and Tyrion (and his family) have done.

Thats not convenient at all. They are them. You are your own person, no one else. (Except like Varymer sixskins lol)

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

. The Starks at least aren't rapists, in fact they are the ones who get raped

Bran regularly forces himself into Hodor, when he knows its wrong and Hodor doesnt like it. Hes like raping his soul. 

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

or arm the Taliban out of spite (Tyrion says hi).

I don't think its fair to call the Mountain Men the Taliban. And it was out of self preservation and duty, not spite

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

 based her entire conquest on hypocrisy (being against slavery while keeping slaves herself

Thats not true

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

(and no, testifying against him is not a reason to murder her

She was collateral damage. He couldn't simply tell her to stay in bed while he killed Tywin and escaped to Essos

54 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Plus I will never forget the huge contrast between Ned and Tyrion when they sit on the Iron Throne. Ned thinks how dangerous the iron throne is and needs to be wary of the power associated with it. Tyrion though rather enjoys how powerful he feels when he sits on it.

Quote

My gentle sister seems to have mistaken me for Ned Stark."

"I hear he was taller."

"Not after Joff took off his head.

 

54 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I think Sansa wants to get out of their marriage

She never thought that. In fact she thinks of going to him because hes not Littlefinger

However Petyr told Sansa hes dead, framed for a crime she knows he didnt commit, because she knows who did and was an accomplice herself.

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't think its fair to call the Mountain Men the Taliban.

Indeed, it’s not fair on the Taliban. 

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And it was out of self preservation and duty, not spite

Wait. WUT? I must have misunderstood... Or are you actually saying the stuff the Mountain does is out of self-preservation and duty? 

[Elegant Woes]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

She never thought that. In fact she thinks of going to him because hes not Littlefinger

Except for a couple of chapters Sansa spends the majority of the third book agonizing of her marriage with Tyrion and even considered suicide to get out of it. She's that dead set to be freed from Tyrion. Just because Sansa doesn't begrudge Tyrion for it doesn't lessen her hunger for freedom. The only reason why she's "glad" for the marriage In a small moment is because Sansa doesn't like the prospect of marrying someone else again. And even that changes because Sansa wants justice for her family. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wait. WUT? I must have misunderstood... Or are you actually saying the stuff the Mountain does is out of self-preservation and duty? 

He is talking about Tyrion arming the mountain clans being out of self preservation, if I'm not mistaken. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Bran regularly forces himself into Hodor, when he knows its wrong and Hodor doesnt like it. Hes like raping his soul

For sure & God help me if Hodor 

Spoiler

Has to "hold the door" because Bran wargs & forces him to. That's horrendous. 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

don't think its fair to call the Mountain Men the Taliban. And it was out of self preservation and duty, not spite

Absolutely.  

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

She was collateral damage. He couldn't simply tell her to stay in bed while he killed Tywin and escaped to Essos

Yeah this too but also he was pretty pissed about it too. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed, it’s not fair on the Taliban. 

I dont think thats funny. (Which is weird because I think most things are funny)

They're a global terrorist organization which fuels itself off fundamentalism and hate. Proudly responsible for the death of thousands and the fear of millions and they hide among hospitals and schools 

The Mountain men are just all the indigenous, ones who have never been indoctrinated into Arryn feudalism

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wait. WUT? I must have misunderstood... Or are you actually saying the stuff the Mountain does is out of self-preservation and duty? 

 

43 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He is talking about Tyrion arming the mountain clans being out of self preservation, if I'm not mistaken. 

Indeed. And then later duty, a Lannister pays their debts

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

Except for a couple of chapters Sansa spends the majority of the third book agonizing of her marriage with Tyrion and even considered suicide to get out of it. 

I remember her contemplating suicide in the first book but not the third

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

Except for a couple of chapters Sansa spends the majority of the third book agonizing of her marriage with Tyrion and even considered suicide to get out of it. She's that dead set to be freed from Tyrion. Just because Sansa doesn't begrudge Tyrion for it doesn't lessen her hunger for freedom. The only reason why she's "glad" for the marriage In a small moment is because Sansa doesn't like the prospect of marrying someone else again. 

She wants to be free of KL, which she knows she will be soon with Dontos. Not free of Tyrion specifically

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

And even that changes because Sansa wants justice for her family. 

Which has nothing to do with Tyrion. 

Quote

Tyrion sighed. "Your lady mother once accused me . . . well, I will not burden you with the ugly details. She accused me falsely. I never harmed your brother Bran. And I mean no harm to you."

What does he want me to say? "That is good to know, my lord." He wanted something from her, but Sansa did not know what it was. He looks like a starving child, but I have no food to give him. Why won't he leave me be?

The relationship between them is complex, but vengeance isnt one of them.

45 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For sure & God help me if Hodor 

  Reveal hidden contents

Has to "hold the door" because Bran wargs & forces him to. That's horrendous. 

 

Damn, never put that together. Pretty horrible there. Even if it is to save the world. Yeesh. Fucking Bran

Quote

"A monster," Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

"Yours," the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of "Yours, yours, yours."

What a hero!

48 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah this too but also he was pretty pissed about it too. 

For sure

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think thats funny. (Which is weird because I think most things are funny)

It wasn’t meant as a joke. But then @Lyanna<3Rhaegar explained what you meant. I completely misunderstood what you were saying, and for that I apologise.