The Starks

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It was a stupid example/comparison.

I guess, the only comparison, I tried to make was how some reader view the situations: Sansa should be grateful, Mirri should be grateful. Which imo they don't owe gratitude. Since Sansa was sexually assaulted and Mirri beyond saving.

But I guess you can't really compare Tyrion and Dany in that scenario.

It wasn't a stupid scenario at all! I understood the comparison, I was just adding to it to explain my view on it

[Nagini's Neville]

32 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree, I think the reason Mirri didn't try to kill Dany but rather took those she loved was because she wanted to hurt Dany. She wanted Dany to understand what it felt like to have yourself "saved" after you have nothing left to save. Mirri knew that lesson would be far beyond Drogo or any of the khalasar. She knew Dany would get it because Dany is the one that "saved" her. MMD was hurt, bitter, devastated, & vengeful. She wanted someone else to feel the same destruction that had just been inflicted on her & Dany was the only one she could do that to. My issue isn't with her taking part in Drogo dying or even wanting Rhaego dead (I'm of the opinion that he was just a baby & no baby should be wished dead) but after witnessing & experiencing the dothraki horde it is not hard to see why MMD wouldn't want it recreated. My issue is that she used Daenerys's kindness to lure her into a false sense of security & trust only to take it from her & rub it in her face at the first opportunity. 

That wasn't my impression at all. My impression was, that she wanted to inflict as much destruction on the destructors as she possibly could.

And when she was supposed to heal the Khal, she took that opportunity to kill him. She certainly didn't care about Dany's feelings, doing it, but why should she after everything that was done to her. 

I personally don't think there is any reason why Dany should be the main target of her revenge. Drogo was the reason for her suffering and he was the one she punished the most. If she punished Dany a bit as a by product, that certainly wasn't something she minded at all. She certainly enjoyed the schadenfreude. But IMO there is just no evidence at all that she did it all to specifically hurt Dany. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree & clearly Mirri didn't feel saved, she didn't feel like it could get much worse. But from Dany's standpoint, I understand why she would feel as if she is doing the woman a kindness to stop the rape before 10 more men rape her, stop the abuse before it kills her. 

While I have never suffered abuse to this point I believe I would want someone to stop the 4th man from raping me, rather than allow 4 more to do it also. I mean, obviously I would rather someone stop it before anyone raped me but if I'm going to be raped the sooner it's over the better. 

I just think sexual abuse is very hard to "quantify". It is a very personal thing of course, different for everybody. The term "it could have been worse" is just like a slap in the face, for the people concerned. And it certainly feels that way for MMD (since she doesn't feel saved from worse) It of course can always be worse. But when you are in that situation it doesn't feel that way, because you have already experienced everything beyond the imaginable. There is already nothing left anymore. Maybe Mirri could have gotten "something" back over time, but she certainly couldn't contemplate that at the time.

But I understand what you meant, just that IMO that's more the opinion of a rational thinking person,looking in from the outside rather than the opinion of a person, having to live through it.

But yes, I understand how Dany could have thought she saved Mirri. Especially since she had to suffer so much abuse herself. And technically she of course did saved her from even more rape and possible murder. So she did a good thing here- there is no question about it. She just should have not thought is was enough. Or even really meaningful to Mirri. But she was still young and an abuse victim herself.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

23 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That wasn't my impression at all. My impression was, that she wanted to inflict as much destruction on the destructors as she possibly could.

And when she was supposed to heal the Khal, she took that opportunity to kill him. She certainly didn't care about Dany's feelings, doing it, but why should she after everything that was done to her. 

I personally don't think there is any reason why Dany should be the main target of her revenge. Drogo was the reason for her suffering and he was the one she punished the most. If she punished Dany a bit as a by product, that certainly wasn't something she minded at all. She certainly enjoyed the schadenfreude. But IMO there is just no evidence at all that she did it all to specifically hurt Dany. 

Yeah, I don't think there is a reason Dany should be her main target either, that's why it bothers me that I feel like she was. 

I see what you are saying but it can be argued that Dany got the worst of it. Drogo & Rhaego lost their lives but Dany had to live without them. Much the same as I think it probably hurts the living much more when we lose a loved one than it does the loved one. 

I've always interpreted it as Dany being her main target because she wanted someone to feel what she felt. Of course, I've been wrong before & I most certainly could be now. Either way, I see why you read it the way you do. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I just think sexual abuse is very hard to "quantify". It is a very personal thing of course, different for everybody. The term "it could have been worse" is just like a slap in the face, for the people concerned. And it certainly feels that way for MMD (since she doesn't feel saved from worse) It of course can always be worse. But when you are in that situation it doesn't feel that way, because you have already experienced everything beyond the imaginable. There is already nothing left anymore. Maybe Mirri could have gotten "something" back over time, but she certainly couldn't contemplate that at the time.

But I understand what you meant, just that IMO that's more the opinion of a rational thinking person,looking in from the outside rather than the opinion of a person, having to live through it.

Oh absolutely. I of course would never say to a sexual abuse victim, or any victim that it could have been worse & I totally get why that is no consolation to Mirri. I just also understand why Danenerys felt as if she was helping the woman.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh absolutely. I of course would never say to a sexual abuse victim, or any victim that it could have been worse & I totally get why that is no consolation to Mirri. I just also understand why Danenerys felt as if she was helping the woman.

Yes, just added a few sentences about that in edit. And I agree. I also understand Dany in that regard.

[redriver]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh absolutely. I of course would never say to a sexual abuse victim, or any victim that it could have been worse & I totally get why that is no consolation to Mirri. I just also understand why Danenerys felt as if she was helping the woman.

What we need is someone of real moral fibre telling us what to think.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But yes, I understand how Dany could have thought she saved Mirri. Especially since she had to suffer so much abuse herself. And technically she of course did saved her from even more rape and possible murder. So she did a good thing here- there is no question about it. She just should have not thought is was enough. Or even really meaningful to Mirri. But she was still young and an abuse victim herself.

Yeah for sure. My favorite thing about the forums are the grey situations we can discuss. It's so hard sometimes to decide who is in the right & who is in the wrong & often times there is no clear right or wrong.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, redriver said:

What we need is someone of real moral fibre telling us what to think.

Oh yeah? Who might that be? 

All this time, I thought that's what I was here for. 

[redriver]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh yeah? Who might that be? 

NN

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, redriver said:

NN

Ohhh, nah she is just discussing the way she sees things.

[redriver]

Ok.I accept your position for now.Reluctantly.

So,where are we at?

Mirri Mirri is one of the good guys along with Janos Slynt and Bowen Marsh.?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, redriver said:

Ok.I accept your position for now.Reluctantly.

So,where are we at?

Mirri Mirri is one of the good guys along with Janos Slynt and Bowen Marsh.?

No way. They all 3 suck. Mirri maybe the least of the 3 though. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. My favorite thing about the forums are the grey situations we can discuss. It's so hard sometimes to decide who is in the right & who is in the wrong & often times there is no clear right or wrong.

haha absolutely and everyone brings their own experiences and angels how to look at things. And you learn so much about yourself and it's sometimes scary LOL

I have yet to answer to Hugor as well, who brought up Shae could have alerted Tywins guards- Something I never thought about before and I strongly dislike, because now I have to rethink the whole situation yet... again LOL (and you know, people like things in boxes)

Tyrion will be the death of me 

I have a lot of empathy for Dany and her more ruthless actions, but most of it comes from the fact, that she grew up as an abuse victim without love, always on the run. From that standpoint it is absolutely understandable, why she craves control and punishes those severely, who hurt her or others, who are innocent. She doesn't want to be hurt ever again- only human. But you can already see how she has the capability of being very vengeful and ruthless, when she has been wronged. And maybe mercy would in some incidences be the better way. Especially when the people, who hurt her have greatly been hurt themselves. That's why all the ingredients for an excellent Darth Vader story are already all in place IMO 

[redriver]

13 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

haha absolutely and everyone brings their own experiences and angels how to look at things. And you learn so much about yourself and it's sometimes scary LOL

I have yet to answer to Hugor as well, who brought up Shae could have alerted Tywins guards- Something I never thought about before and I strongly dislike, because now I have to rethink the whole situation yet... again LOL (and you know, people like things in boxes)

Tyrion will be the death of me 

I have a lot of empathy for Dany and her more ruthless actions, but most of it comes from the fact, that she grew up as an abuse victim without love, always on the run. From that standpoint it is absolutely understandable, why she craves control and punishes those severely, who hurt her or others, who are innocent. She doesn't want to be hurt ever again- only human. But you can already see how she has the capability of being very vengeful and ruthless, when she has been wronged. And maybe mercy would in some incidences be the better way. Especially when the people, who hurt her have greatly been hurt themselves. That's why all the ingredients for an excellent Darth Vader story are already all in place IMO 

You change positions more frequently than my bed maid.

[Nagini's Neville]

18 minutes ago, redriver said:

NN

Come on, dude. Stop it. I'm just stating my opinion. That's why IMO is attached to most of my sentences. Nor have I ever claimed I'm a specifically moral person. Or more moral than others.

But I'd argue distorting others stating their opinions into "she tries to tell us what to think" is just a form of bullying someone, who doesn't agree with you and also just strawman, because I couldn't care less what you think. And when your perception of me stating my opinion equals me telling you what to think, that's really your problem, not mine.

So maybe you could just stop with your passive aggressive comments for a while and focus on articulating your own opinions, which -surprise- are just as valid as mine.

 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

10 minutes ago, redriver said:

You change positions more frequently than my bed maid.

Aha. I doubt you have read most of my posts. And it's called admitting when you are wrong, learning and growing as a person- you should try it some time. 

[Big P]

On 1/19/2020 at 5:35 AM, Bernie Mac said:

I'd say the Starks have suffered at least as much as those Houses.

There's still too many Starks left compared to the other families.  

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I don't think there is a reason Dany should be her main target either, that's why it bothers me that I feel like she was. 

Hm, but I don't really understand why you do haha

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I see what you are saying but it can be argued that Dany got the worst of it. Drogo & Rhaego lost their lives but Dany had to live without them. Much the same as I think it probably hurts the living much more when we lose a loved one than it does the loved one. 

 

Okay. I see. But I just don't think Mirri was thinking about Dany that much at all. She wasn't important to her. She didn't care for her.

So if for example you had been victim of the holocaust and Eva Braun had somehow saved you from the gas chambers and had shown you kindness and protection, but your whole family is dead, a genocide committed on your people. Millions abused and murdered. A war going on. And you get a chance to assassinate Adolf Hitler. Wouldn't you do it? Wouldn't you not maybe also use Eva Braun's kindness to get to him. Would you not do it, just because she, who saved you, loved him?

There would be millions of reasons to kill Hitler, but to do it to hurt Eva Braun, who saved you, just seems the least likely.

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I've always interpreted it as Dany being her main target because she wanted someone to feel what she felt. Of course, I've been wrong before & I most certainly could be now. Either way, I see why you read it the way you do. 

I just can't really find that in the text at all. It might have been a by-product, but IMO not the main reason for her actions at all. At least I can't find something that is certain evidence for that in the text. And therefore I just think it would illogical, since IMO she just has a very obvious motive for killing Drogo.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

On 26. Januar 2020 at 10:34 PM, Hugorfonics said:

All she had to do was scream and Tywins guards would have came through the door

I hadn't thought about that. Maybe I'll start a thread about it some time.

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Yea she did

Yeah, that really shows, how bad her situation is- poor girl! 

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When? Shes all over Harry (in twow sample)

First of all. We don't know, if that's really what will be happening in TWOW. Second of all she doesn't like Harry, she is obviously putting on an act, because her creepy "Dad" told her to "bewitch" him. 

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Lysa waved a hand negligently. “Not for many years. You are too young to be a mother. One day you shall want children, though. Just as you will want to marry.” “I … I am married, my lady.” “Yes, but soon a widow. Be glad the Imp preferred his whores. It would not be fitting for my son to take that dwarf’s leavings, but as he never touched you … How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?” The thought made Sansa weary. All she knew of Robert Arryn was that he was a little boy, and sickly. It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love.

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Petyr Baelish took her by the hand and drew her down onto his lap. “I have made a marriage contract for you.” “A marriage …” Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. “I do not … I cannot marry. Father, I …” Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. “I am married,” she whispered. “You know.”

 

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 Your excused.  

very frech.

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Joffrey was murdered by the amethysts that Sansa knowingly brought

Lol she didn't know, that in her hairnet was poison, someone would use to kill Joff with. So "knowingly" is out of place in your sentence.