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22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

MMD doesn't deny it, because it's quite evident that Dany is beyond reasonability, and just out to blame someone else and take it out on that person. It was quite clear that MMD would be Dany's scapegoat by that point, including for the decisions that Dany made despite MMD telling her that it might be better not to do it. Any attempt by MMD to point out Dany's own responsibility in this tragedy, pointing out Drogo's own responsibility to his blood poisoning would anger Dany more. Could she have tried? Sure, but she knew it would fall on deaf ears. Instead, of debating the details, MMD chooses to point out the big picture - Drogo sacked a village of people who never did anything to him, Rhaego would be a Hitler and thank god he wasn't born, you didn't save me.

My take on this is that MMD didn’t deny anything just to hurt Dany. She’s taking credit for the end result, despite the text pointing fairly clearly to some things happening randomly and the sum of these things being what made it all go down the way it did. Like Dany going into labour when she did, Jorah carrying her into the tent, etc.

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

My take on this is that MMD didn’t deny anything just to hurt Dany. She’s taking credit for the end result, despite the text pointing fairly clearly to some things happening randomly and the sum of these things being what made it all go down the way it did. Like Dany going into labour when she did, Jorah carrying her into the tent, etc.

Or let's not forget the Dothraki throwing stones to her and attempting to kill her in reaction to her decision to have a Maegi work magic, and how this prompted her to go into premature labour.

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

My point wasn't that MMD didn't want to anger Dany further. My point is that MMD recognized that no matter what she'd say, Dany would be angry. So, she might as well go for the bigger truth than the minor details. And the bigger truth is that Drogo was a mass murderer, that Rhaego would have grown up to be a mass murderer and that MMD doesn't feel any gratitude towards Dany.

But why would she think no matter what she said Dany would be angry? The only reason I can see for her to say the things she said were to anger her, hurt her etc. & I think that was indeed her motive. I think if she merely wanted to tell Dany about why she thought Drogo & Rhaego dying were a good thing she wouldn't have let Dany believe she killed them 

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13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

My take on this is that MMD didn’t deny anything just to hurt Dany. She’s taking credit for the end result, despite the text pointing fairly clearly to some things happening randomly and the sum of these things being what made it all go down the way it did. Like Dany going into labour when she did, Jorah carrying her into the tent, etc.

Yeah this is my take. I don't think MMD had anything to do with Rhaego's death & very little to do with Drogo's. She wanted to hurt Dany. 

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33 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Dany is beyond reasonability: she accuses MMD of killing her child, while MMD warned her against having the ritual performed, warned her against entering the tent, told her it looked like a lizard, etc... Dany ignores all these things and jumps to "you killed my unborn child". It sounds VERY irrational to me, to hear Dany say that, knowing what actually occurred. Dany sounds like a relative of a fatal patient who ended up in a coma after the life saving operation failed and accuses the surgeon of wanting to kill her husband. If this was an ER episode, Dany would be the irrational relative.

I don't think it sounds unreasonable. She says you cheated me, you let me believe it was the horses life that was to pay for Drogo's. That's exactly what Mirri did. I think it was the horses life that paid for Drogo's, coupled with Mirri's magic. Telling her it looked like a lizard would just further the idea that there was some dark magic going on & she knows Mirri just performed some. 

The things that happened coupled with Mirri's words give Daenerys a very reasonable reason to believe it's true. I don't think there is anything irrational about that exchange. 

37 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Now, normally the surgeon would pity Dany for accusing him irrationally, especially if the trauma of the husband ending up fatally wounded was followed by mayhem that caused a premature birth resulting in a miscarriage. But that's because the surgeon isn't the slave of that irrational relation, nor saw his whole family, friends, colleagues and hospital being burned, pillaged, raped and enslaved by the couple.

It's skeptical as to whether or not Mirri was actually trying to save Drogo's life - why would she? It makes no sense to me for Mirri to want to save Drogo's life but hate Daenerys. Drogo was leading the people & participating in the atrocities committed on her people. Dany was a bystander & while she couldn't stop all of the abuse she did stop the abuse of MMD. 

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1 minute ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Any chance the Dany/MMD/Drogo conversation can be moved to a topic not titled "The Starks"?

Yes, I was in the process of doing that right now :) Sorry for derailing. 

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5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I believe him when he says this. 

Sure. At that point I believe him to. That however is not a reflection of who he was in the first three books.

He actively played a huge part in the Starks destruction. He was not some passive member of the invasion, he, against his father's orders, targeted Winterfell and put its people through shit. This was not him wanting to belong to the Starks, this was him wanting to be powerful and above all others.

But yeah, a year of torture will have Theon regretting his actions, wanting to go back to a simpler time when he was he Stark's guest instead of the Boltons. He will be thinking that his karma has brought his fate upon himself. But I don't think for one minute had he not been captured by the Ironborn he'd be thinking to himself how he wished he was a Stark. He did not seem to have fond memories about that time, his friendship with Robb apart.

I was a boy of ten when I was taken to Winterfell as a ward of Eddard Stark." A ward in name, a hostage in truth. Half his days a hostage . . . but no longer. His life was his own again, and nowhere a Stark to be seen.


Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who'd brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.


This was never my home. I was a hostage here. Lord Stark had not treated him cruelly, but the long steel shadow of his greatsword had always been between them. He was kind to me, but never warm. He knew that one day he might need to put me to death.

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On 1/24/2020 at 12:04 PM, Dr. Miguelito Loveless said:

The Starks . . . . . . . . . . . . . . are Shitheads. That's the number one reason why they lost the north and Winterfell.  :ack:

Cat kidnaps Tywin Lannister's son, Sansa can't keep her trap shut, Robb can't keep his word, and Jon can't mind his own business. 

Bad decisions made because they were emotional.  Robb's broken oath to Walder was the nail on the coffin.  Jon's poor conduct at the Wall has the possibility to cause the most damage for the kingdom.  Not just the Starks. 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:21 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, as opposed to the noble Tywin who sets the riverlands aflame, Cersei & Joffrey who are not only holding the throne by deception but also behead a man for trying to right that wrong, the holy Walder Frey who slaughtered a group of people over a slight & let us not forget the wonderful, flaying, torturing, sick, sadistic Ramsay whose power in holding WF is not only based on a lie but also he isn't deserving of any wife, let alone Arya. 

I can see your point.  The topic is about the Starks and their downfall.  So yes, the Starks as a family are generally not as disgusting as the Lannisters and the Boltons.  I would not put the Freys in the same level as the Lannisters and the Boltons.  The Freys are better people than the Lannisters.  The Targaryens as a whole are a little bit better than these other families, including the Starks.

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1 minute ago, Unit A2 said:

Bad decisions made because they were emotional.  Robb's broken oath to Walder was the nail on the coffin.  Jon's poor conduct at the Wall has the possibility to cause the most damage for the kingdom.  Not just the Starks. 

I can see your point.  The topic is about the Starks and their downfall.  So yes, the Starks as a family are generally not as disgusting as the Lannisters and the Boltons.  I would not put the Freys in the same level as the Lannisters and the Boltons.  The Freys are better people than the Lannisters.  The Targaryens as a whole are a little bit better than these other families, including the Starks.

All families have good & bad (well except there doesn't seem to be any very good Bolton's) 

I don't know about the Freys being better than the Lannisters & Bolton's, they have done some pretty nasty stuff of late. The Targaryens seem to have had the most extreme of either world (good & bad) but I don't know if we can say they are "better" than the Starks. It's hard to say one family is better than the other unless they are just filled with rotten apples or have done something particularly heinous. The current set of Starks & Dany - being the only known Targaryens left are comparable. 

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16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

As was Tyrion

yeah, I really don't think you can remotely compare both of their positions. And I feel like we just had that discussion, where I made all my points about it. But in short: Tyrion is in a position of power, he has full authority over her, she must obey him, he is also an adult with a lot of sexual experience already, and even though he feels some distress he is also physically attracted to her and to all what comes with her "I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is."; Sansa is a 12 year old, abused hostage of his family, who killed her father and is at war with her family, she has no power over Tyrion, can't tell him to stop, must obey him by law and her desires don't matter, she is not attracted to Tyrion, even repulsed, but given her age and stage of development sexual desire should not be expected from her for any man, she loses her family forever by being married to him (at least that's what it seems like at the time) she is forced to become part of the family, that destroyed hers. "They have made me a Lannister,"

Even if you want to look at Tyrion solely as a victim along side Sansa. Then we need to assume he just felt so much pressure from his father to sleep with her. But Tywin never puts this kind of pressure on Tyrion, he doesn't threaten him, he doesn't warn him, that there will be severe consequences. None of that. Also as we know from "Shae" Tyrion has no problems whatsoever going against his father's will, if he really wants to. Then the most important thing: there is nothing easier in the world, than faking a wedding night. They are all alone, he didn't have to put her through that. And you can't tell me, that a smart man like Tyrion doesn't know that. He could have just explained to her, how important it is, that they pretend, they consummated, if it ever should come up and she would have been the first one to agree. But when he finally decides he won't go through with it, he doesn't even care about making arrangements anymore to pretend they consummated. And when then suddenly everyone knows they didn't consummate - surprise- nothing happens-at all. And the one time Tywin (for him very calmly) tells him he should consummate, Tyrion doesn't even try to deny that he didn't and yells at his father to basically piss off. 

So there were never really any consequences and even if there were he could have taken arrangements to to prevent them, which he doesn't even bother to try.

And also Tyrion is a grown man at this point, there is a limit to how long you can deflect the responsibility for your own actions onto someone else, "who made you do it", especially when there aren't any real severe consequences for you, there is such an easy way out, if there were and you have proven to have done it before, therefore are capable of it. 

When he feels distress this is nothing in comparison with the terror she is experiencing.

Also IMO his distress is mostly because of his looks, while hers is, because she is about to be raped - so there is really no comparing the two.

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18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

As was Tyrion

She figured it out pretty quickly

.

"They're no amethysts. Are they? Are they? You lied."

"Black amethysts," he swore. "There was magic in them."

"There was murder in them!"

.

.

I could never abide the weeping of women, Joff once said, but his mother was the only woman weeping now. In Old Nan's stories the grumkins crafted magic things that could make a wish come true. Did I wish him dead? she wondered, before she remembered that she was too old to believe in grumkins. "Tyrion poisoned him?" Her dwarf husband had hated his nephew, she knew. Could he truly have killed him? Did he know about my hair net, about the black amethysts? He brought Joff wine. How could you make someone choke by putting an amethyst in their wine?

.

"Did Sansa Stark do it, then?" Lord Tyrell demanded.

I would have, if I'd been her. Yet wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He had wrapped the cloak of his protection about her shoulders, though he'd had to stand on a fool's back to do it. "The gods killed Joffrey. He choked on his pigeon pie."

Lord Tyrell reddened. "You would blame the bakers?"

"Them, or the pigeons. Just leave me out of it."

.

"My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want . . ." His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

.

Want more?

This is all after it happened. You said she knowingly brought the hairnet -which she didn't, she didn't know there was poison in it, she didn't know they would kill someone with it, she didn't know Olenna took some of the poison out of it, when she readjusted the hairnet (women do that all the time to each other) and she certainly didn't want to kill Tyrion, dunno why you think that.

That she got it in hindsight only proves, that she isn't dumb. Because in hindsight it was quite obvious. But in hindsight most things are obvious. But she didn't know, who was a part of it, she even suspected Tyrion might be involved and might have known of the hairnet.

She was used (her desire to finally escape this prison was used against her) and framed for murder, she is a victim here.

 

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17 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

This is all after it happened. You said she knowingly brought the hairnet -which she didn't, she didn't know there was poison in it, she didn't know they would kill someone with it, she didn't know Olenna took some of the poison out of it, when she readjusted the hairnet (women do that all the time to each other) and she certainly didn't want to kill Tyrion, dunno why you think that.

That she got it in hindsight only proves, that she isn't dumb. Because in hindsight it was quite obvious. But in hindsight most things are obvious. But she didn't know, who was a part of it, she even suspected Tyrion might be involved and might have known of the hairnet.

She was used (her desire to finally escape this prison was used against her) and framed for murder, she is a victim here.

 

Yes, Sansa was an innocent who was framed.  You can only take revisionism so far.

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10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

This is all after it happened. You said she knowingly brought the hairnet -which she didn't, she didn't know there was poison in it, she didn't know they would kill someone with it, she didn't know Olenna took some of the poison out of it, when she readjusted the hairnet (women do that all the time to each other) and she certainly didn't want to kill Tyrion, dunno why you think that.

(I never meant to imply that Sansa wanted to kill Tyrion)

I said she knowingly brought the hairnet, not that she knowingly was an accomplice. Idk how thats up for debate. 

Quote

Ser Dontos had said the hair net was magic, that it would take her home. He told her she must wear it tonight at Joffrey's wedding feast.

He told her that after Blackwater, after Tyrells proposal, its all he ever says really.

10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That she got it in hindsight only proves, that she isn't dumb. Because in hindsight it was quite obvious. But in hindsight most things are obvious. 

No doubt, but whatd she expect? Who knows really, but she expected something, right? She had to.

Like her sister. She didn't know why she was supposed to make broth, didn't know why Rorge was helping her, however she knew what the end game was. 

Quote

The Lorathi brought the blade to Arya still red with heart's blood and wiped it clean on the front of her shift. "A girl should be bloody too. This is her work."

(Obviously these are different circumstances, yet the comparison is still applicable)

10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She was used (her desire to finally escape this prison was used against her) and framed for murder, she is a victim here.

A little bit of column A and a little bit of B

10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Also IMO his distress is mostly because of his looks, while hers is, because she is about to be raped - so there is really no comparing the two.

His distress was about raping another wife on his wedding night. Tywin was able to make Tyrion rape Tysha, not Sansa

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

His distress was about raping another wife on his wedding night. Tywin was able to make Tyrion rape Tysha, not Sansa

Tywin has nothing to do with it. Tyrion would have gone through with it, of his own volition (as quoted by people he wanted her sexually), if his own issues hadn't kicked in as a result of Sansa's reaction. It wasn't for Sansa's sake or to be a good guy or anything to do with his father, his own issues were the only thing that stopped him.

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3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Tywin has nothing to do with it. Tyrion would have gone through with it, of his own volition (as quoted by people he wanted her sexually), if his own issues hadn't kicked in as a result of Sansa's reaction. It wasn't for Sansa's sake or to be a good guy or anything to do with his father, his own issues were the only thing that stopped him.

If Sansa had not expressed revulsion, he would have gone through with it.

Also, I think the author realised that it would be a moral event horizon to have Tyrion rape Sansa.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

If Sansa had not expressed revulsion, he would have gone through with it.

Also, I think the author realised that it would be a moral event horizon to have Tyrion rape Sansa.

What's the difference between raping Sansa and raping the slave girl later? Why would raping Sansa be a moral event horizon but not the slave? There is no difference to me. Both are in the same position of powerlessness in regards to Tyrion. And the reader should see it as such IMO. Otherwise it's just another case of 'doing it to a main character is unforgivable but some random person who cares', which is a mindset I just don't understand.

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16 minutes ago, Mystical said:

What's the difference between raping Sansa and raping the slave girl later? Why would raping Sansa be a moral event horizon but not the slave? There is no difference to me. Both are in the same position of powerlessness in regards to Tyrion. And the reader should see it as such IMO. Otherwise it's just another case of 'doing it to a main character is unforgivable but some random person who cares', which is a mindset I just don't understand.

Yes, what Tyrion did in Selhorys was revolting.  Actually, I suppose the real moral event horizon for Tyrion was his murder of Shae, which was horribly callous and nasty.  From an ethical point of view, it makes no difference whether he rapes Sansa or an anonymous slave.  But, I think most readers would simply abandon him, had he raped Sansa.

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20 minutes ago, Mystical said:

What's the difference between raping Sansa and raping the slave girl later? Why would raping Sansa be a moral event horizon but not the slave? There is no difference to me. Both are in the same position of powerlessness in regards to Tyrion. And the reader should see it as such IMO. Otherwise it's just another case of 'doing it to a main character is unforgivable but some random person who cares', which is a mindset I just don't understand.

I don't understand that mindset either, but a lot of readers for sure have it. It always shocks me how less readers care for what Theon did to Kyra.

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39 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I don't understand that mindset either, but a lot of readers for sure have it. It always shocks me how less readers care for what Theon did to Kyra.

They're dark books. The main povs, I like to think of them as the singers of ice and fire, thats who the story is about, your Tyrions and Theons, not your Kyras. 

Im not sure how much we're supposed to acknowledge it

(

Quote

There was something slung over the back of his destrier, a heavy shape wrapped in a bloody cloak. "No sign of your daughter, Hand," the Hound rasped down, "but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet." He reached back and shoved the burden off, and it fell with a thump in front of Ned.

Bending, Ned pulled back the cloak, dreading the words he would have to find for Arya, but it was not Nymeria after all. It was the butcher's boy, Mycah, his body covered in dried blood.

I mean that passage always disgusted me, like Arya would mourn her pet more then a person, her friend? Or Ned thinks Arya would think that? Either way, disgusting.

But, later

Quote

Sandor moaned, and she rolled onto her side to look at him. She had left his name out too, she realized. Why had she done that? She tried to think of Mycah, but it was hard to remember what he'd looked like. She hadn't known him long. All he ever did was play at swords with me.

)

Maybe Mycah exists for Arya, not for us, if that makes sense.

Theon betrayed Kyra, he took advantage of her and while she expected to have a good time he beat her instead. This was all done while Theon fell deeper and deeper into madness, being plagued by dreams of his murdered foster brothers is why he called Kyra to begin with. And then later while Theon is experiencing a whole new plateau of madness, Kyra comes to him again looking for a hero, which again leads to more madness 

The Volantis hooker is similar. What the hell does Tyrion know about living in a slave city? Griff said no drinking, but no Griff there, only the halmaester some wine and parcheesi. So drunk Tyrion waddles in, gets a hooker without thinking much and when he was finished he saw the doped up girl as she was. Tyrion, since leaving his father, has thought hes falling deeper into the dark side, he immediately tells her the monster that he is, instructs her to rid the world of evil and make something out of herself, when she continued to gaze at him with those spaced out eyes he jumped back into the world of his monstrosity. 

They're dark books

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