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On 1/24/2020 at 12:04 PM, Dr. Miguelito Loveless said:

The Starks . . . . . . . . . . . . . . are Shitheads. That's the number one reason why they lost the north and Winterfell.  :ack:

Cat kidnaps Tywin Lannister's son, Sansa can't keep her trap shut, Robb can't keep his word, and Jon can't mind his own business. 

Winterfell was already lost to the Starks when the two mutton heads broke their oaths.  Robb and Jon broke their oaths after Winterfell and the north were already lost.  The IB had taken the north already.  Jon betrayed the NW and broke his vows after Winterfell had already gone to the Boltons.  There are no excuses for their oath breaking though.  Indeed they are S/Hs as you say.  Robb, Jon, and Arya at least.

Edited by The Lord of the Crossing

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Blind obedience to loyalty oaths is one cause of the Holocaust. Oathbreaking isnt morally wrong per se, its just that the author wanted to show that actions have consequences and characters have to face them. Yet people took that as the authors moral judgement. Its not always the same. We wanted more people to break oaths to Joffrey for instance. We dont want Jon to be cruel and cold to his siblings. We're fine with anyone who kills Ramsay.

When the vast majority of readers dont care about the stupid oath, or want them to be broken - like wanting Jon to be less of a perfect white knight, not wanting Robb to marry into the Frey family - they're less likely to care about holding the oaths to the letter. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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12 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Blind obedience to loyalty oaths is one cause of the Holocaust. Oathbreaking isnt morally wrong per se, its just that the author wanted to show that actions have consequences and characters have to face them. Yet people took that as the authors moral judgement. Its not always the same. We wanted more people to break oaths to Joffrey for instance. We dont want Jon to be cruel and cold to his siblings. We're fine with anyone who kills Ramsay.

When the vast majority of readers dont care about the stupid oath, or want them to be broken - like wanting Jon to be less of a perfect white knight, not wanting Robb to marry into the Frey family - they're less likely to care about holding the oaths to the letter. 

Blind obediencie to loyalty oaths is also the reason we're not getting coups by the army like a South American  country during the cold  war.

 

When people start follow their heart and conscience  instead of just blind obey, they could end with the life of a crazy man would absolute power... Or they could play the Game of Thrones.

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24 minutes ago, frenin said:

Blind obediencie to loyalty oaths is also the reason we're not getting coups by the army like a South American  country during the cold  war.

 

When people start follow their heart and conscience  instead of just blind obey, they could end with the life of a crazy man would absolute power... Or they could play the Game of Thrones.

That just sounds like the dangers of hedomism and excess for people already in power. I'm talking about normal, everyday people who arent seeking a throne but have to (or think they have to) follow ridiculous orders. People in the Milgram experiment should have followed their conscious. The Starks still have a conscious, with power, but not too much (it can always be checked). 

And, a person can achieve absolute power and go crazy with it because people under them blindly obey. Blind obedience is helpful in limited contexts. Most of the time, its a detriment, particularly in this story.

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On 2/10/2020 at 9:58 AM, Finley McLeod said:

Mystical,

The worst thing that Jon did is send the guiltiest criminal in Westeros to sneak his sister away from her husband.  It would have gotten worse if Bowen Marsh had not stopped him.  And yes, Jon, Sansa, and Arya are shit heads.  

 

Good one,  Good one.  Next up:

1. Walder Frey was the hero of the Red Wedding

2. Randyll Tarly is father of the year

3. Aerys II was a good guy.

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That just sounds like the dangers of hedomism and excess for people already in power. I'm talking about normal, everyday people who arent seeking a throne but have to (or think they have to) follow ridiculous orders. People in the Milgram experiment should have followed their conscious. The Starks still have a conscious, with power, but not too much (it can always be checked). 

And, a person can achieve absolute power and go crazy with it because people under them blindly obey. Blind obedience is helpful in limited contexts. Most of the time, its a detriment, particularly in this story.

How so?? You end up talking about the Holocaust , that's true. But living in a land of warlords and endless coups  is also a very likely outcome, in fact if Jaime's reforms  settle, the KG, more sooner than later, will end up like a praetorian guard. You talk about how we readers want Jon or the KG to break their oaths, we've seen people breaking their oaths several times, it hardly ever ends well for anyone. Most people don't care about the Throne... Most people aren't near enough it, those who are however...

 

The Starks have a conscience but they didn't swear oaths, those who did, ended up breaking them somehow and that cost them everything. And this story is full of pros and cons about it. That don't tell us much, most of us would've done the same Ned and Jon did but that has its  consequences.

In Westeros oathbreakers are reviled and bar Jaime, rightly so.

Edited by frenin

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

How so?? You end up talking about the Holocaust , that's true. But living in a land of warlords and endless coups  is also a very likely outcome, in fact if Jaime's reforms  settle, the KG, more sooner than later, will end up like a praetorian guard. You talk about how we readers want Jon or the KG to break their oaths, we've seen people breaking their oaths several times, it hardly ever ends well for anyone. Most people don't care about the Throne... Most people aren't near enough it, those who are however...

 

The Starks have a conscience but they didn't swear oaths, those who did, ended up breaking them somehow and that cost them everything. And this story is full of pros and cons about it. That don't tell us much, most of us would've done the same Ned and Jon did but that has its  consequences.

In Westeros oathbreakers are reviled and bar Jaime, rightly so.

Because, like she said, when you have people willing to blindly follow you, never think for themselves, that's how we end up with things like the holocaust. I agree there needs to be an extreme level of obedience in military structures & such but even then I think blind obedience is dangerous. 

I tell my kids often: Do what is right, regardless of what you are told. Blind obedience leads to doing what you're told regardless of what is right. 

 

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9 hours ago, frenin said:

How so?? You end up talking about the Holocaust , that's true. But living in a land of warlords and endless coups  is also a very likely outcome, in fact if Jaime's reforms  settle, the KG, more sooner than later, will end up like a praetorian guard. You talk about how we readers want Jon or the KG to break their oaths, we've seen people breaking their oaths several times, it hardly ever ends well for anyone. Most people don't care about the Throne... Most people aren't near enough it, those who are however...

 

The Starks have a conscience but they didn't swear oaths, those who did, ended up breaking them somehow and that cost them everything. And this story is full of pros and cons about it. That don't tell us much, most of us would've done the same Ned and Jon did but that has its  consequences.

In Westeros oathbreakers are reviled and bar Jaime, rightly so.

The author making sure that oath breaking has consequences to the characters who do it is just him writing a realistic story. If there were no consequences it would be Disney’s Westeros. So I’m pretty certain that the Bolton’s and Frey’s will face consequences for THEIR actions too, eventually...

But shouldn’t there be some moral lesson, even as there is a moral dilemma? It’s not like he’s trying to say to modern readers, “never break your oaths, or you’ll end up stabbed by your bannermen.” For one, that’s not really an interesting moral lesson, and two, it doesn’t seem like the authors style. Jaime being reviled is just the in-universe response. We know he’s reviled for his most heroic act, which was not blindly obeying the dude threatening to set off bombs on his own people. Even the people who dont obey the Starks are useful - that means the surviving Starks have to work harder to be worthy of loyalty. 

Why people commit atrocities is a deeper question that has persisted for a long time. It’s not very interesting to explore what happens when people don’t follow orders, the big question for the modern era is what happens when people follow them too well. Studies in social psychology and investigations into genocide have made strong caseS for blind obedience, as a main cause for inflicting violence. GRRM seems to be engaging in that tradition with Jaime, Tywin, Dany, and Varys’ riddle. He even went off about people willing to go along with Vietnam, asking “Why does anyone follow anyone?” It seems like he’s more interested in this stuff than shaming people for not following their loyalty oaths to the letter. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 2/10/2020 at 4:34 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I love the Starks but in all fairness it is argued that Robb decimated the riverlands & got himself & his men slaughtered, Arya is putting notches on her belt at an alarming number, Bran mind rapes Hodor, Jon - well all kinds of things get blamed on Jon & Sansa was the initial catalyst that brought down her entire house. 

:lol::lol::lol: I swear, sometimes I feel that if Jon so much as dares to breath a little harder he'll end up being blamed that a tornado destroyed a village somewhere in the Stormlands.

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On 2/21/2020 at 8:56 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Because, like she said, when you have people willing to blindly follow you, never think for themselves, that's how we end up with things like the holocaust. I agree there needs to be an extreme level of obedience in military structures & such but even then I think blind obedience is dangerous. 

I tell my kids often: Do what is right, regardless of what you are told. Blind obedience leads to doing what you're told regardless of what is right. 

I agree with that but as i said, there might be extreme level of obedience in military structures, because one never knows if what they think it's right, it's really the right thing to do. But i overall agree, somewhere people have to start thinking for themselves.

 

 

On 2/22/2020 at 2:53 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

The author making sure that oath breaking has consequences to the characters who do it is just him writing a realistic story. If there were no consequences it would be Disney’s Westeros. So I’m pretty certain that the Bolton’s and Frey’s will face consequences for THEIR actions too, eventually...

 

Agree.

 

On 2/22/2020 at 2:53 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Why people commit atrocities is a deeper question that has persisted for a long time. It’s not very interesting to explore what happens when people don’t follow orders, the big question for the modern era is what happens when people follow them too well. Studies in social psychology and investigations into genocide have made strong caseS for blind obedience, as a main cause for inflicting violence. GRRM seems to be engaging in that tradition with Jaime, Tywin, Dany, and Varys’ riddle. He even went off about people willing to go along with Vietnam, asking “Why does anyone follow anyone?” It seems like he’s more interested in this stuff than shaming people for not following their loyalty oaths to the letter. 

The fact that you don't like an answer does not make it any less valid and Martin, whether you like it or not, is exploring what it entails breaking or not breaking your vows for better or for worse.

 

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On 1/24/2020 at 12:04 PM, Dr. Miguelito Loveless said:

The Starks . . . . . . . . . . . . . . are Shitheads. That's the number one reason why they lost the north and Winterfell.  :ack:

Cat kidnaps Tywin Lannister's son, Sansa can't keep her trap shut, Robb can't keep his word, and Jon can't mind his own business. 

:agree:

On 1/24/2020 at 7:34 PM, Elegant Woes said:

The Starks are a bunch of saints if you compare them to the Lannisters and Targaryens. 

No, they are not.  Just take Arya, for example.  A 9-10 year old serial murderer, killing people who were not threatening her or anybody.  So cold, so damaged, so desensitized to violence and it is partly due to her own making.  

On 1/25/2020 at 11:19 AM, Elegant Woes said:

@Hugorfonics I didn't say the Starks are saints. Just in comparison to Lannisters and Targaryens and that is the truth. The Starklings made their fair share morally grey choices in live but they are a lighter shade of grey when you compare it to the two other family I mentioned. No doubt that this a conscious decision of GRRM. After all at the end of the day the Starks (Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran) are the heroes of the story. This is a fantasy story and no matter how much deconstructing George is doing he will retain the core message the Fantasy genre is all about: good triumphing over evil. So the Starks are kinda required to be morally upright compared to the other families. 

The Starks are one of the most screwed up families in Westeros.  They are directly involved in the last two wars because they can't keep each other straight.  I have to disagree with your opinion.  

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On 2/9/2020 at 10:03 AM, Bullrout said:

The Stark kids are.  Shit heads, that is.  Ned was a decent fellow.  Tywin would kidnap Robb too if the Starks had tried to kill Jaime.  Catelyn did what Brandon did long ago.  I can understand some of it but to us it's inconsiderate of the collateral damage.

The Lannisters are right up there with the Starks in shitheadedness.  Jamie in particular.  

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22 minutes ago, Jean-Louis Schiffer said:

No, they are not.  Just take Arya, for example.  A 9-10 year old serial murderer, killing people who were not threatening her or anybody.  So cold, so damaged, so desensitized to violence and it is partly due to her own making

Who did she kill that wasn't threatening anyone? 

Oh, you mean like the small folk in the riverlands? Or Elia & her children? Or Lady the direwolf? Or maybe Mycah the butchers boy? How about Ned Stark? 

... Wait those were all Lannister murders. 

25 minutes ago, Jean-Louis Schiffer said:

The Starks are one of the most screwed up families in Westeros

Ikr. All the incest, lying, deceit, killing - it's sick!

Oh wait, my bad that's the Lannisters again.

26 minutes ago, Jean-Louis Schiffer said:

They are directly involved in the last two wars because they can't keep each other straight. 

Yeah, I mean who doesn't cause wars by not "keeping each other straight"

 

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4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ikr. All the incest, lying, deceit, killing - it's sick!

Oh wait, my bad that's the Lannisters again Targaryens.

FTFY. :)

 

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13 hours ago, frenin said:

The fact that you don't like an answer does not make it any less valid and Martin, whether you like it or not, is exploring what it entails breaking or not breaking your vows for better or for worse.

And I'm saying one of those is shown to be more relevant to the modern day and more distressing, when a U.S. president is axing people seen as insufficiently loyal and retaining people who uncritically do the dirty work. A person who C.O.'ed in Vietnam is probably less concerned with the implications of breaking rank or an oath for in the era we're in now. Authors want to have relevance.

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6 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And I'm saying one of those is shown to be more relevant to the modern day and more distressing, when a U.S. president is axing people seen as insufficiently loyal and retaining people who uncritically do the dirty work. A person who C.O.'ed in Vietnam is probably less concerned with the implications of breaking rank or an oath for in the era we're in now. Authors want to have relevance.

Martin has been writing in that way for 20 years, that's simply a non argument.

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12 minutes ago, frenin said:

Martin has been writing in that way for 20 years, that's simply a non argument.

And it paid off because the ideas are still relevant. He didnt stay relevant by emphasizing the dangers of breaking our vows. That isnt something that we're concerned with as a society right now. 

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And it paid off because the ideas are still relevant. He didnt stay relevant by emphasizing the dangers of breaking our vows. That isnt something that we're concerned with as a society right now. 

He did actually, hell that's the reason why Jon stayed in the watch. Sorry, but you're giving post hoc arguments that aren't really related to the topic, but to your believes.

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Do you think that Wylla loved Robb and part of the reason she refused to marry a Frey was that it would be wrong to do it with a member of family complacent in his murder?

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