Jump to content

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Eternally_His said:

Do you think that Wylla loved Robb and part of the reason she refused to marry a Frey was that it would be wrong to do it with a member of family complacent in his murder?

Of course not. We are never told of anything going on between Sweetie and Wylla. She refused the marriage to a Frey because she despises the treacherous weasels, and rightly so. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, frenin said:

He did actually, hell that's the reason why Jon stayed in the watch. Sorry, but you're giving post hoc arguments that aren't really related to the topic, but to your believes.

This is mostly about the edgelords who show up in every Stark discussion to harp about how evil and corrupt Jon and Robb are for breaking their vows, offering no concern for nuance or parallels to modern day problems. The problem of following orders too well and being the "perfect knight" or the "perfect follower" is a theme, not just my belief. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

This is mostly about the edgelords who show up in every Stark discussion to harp about how evil and corrupt Jon and Robb are for breaking their vows, offering no concern for nuance or parallels to modern day problems. The problem of following orders too well and being the "perfect knight" or the "perfect follower" is a theme, not just my belief. 

Why don't argue my thoughts instead of someone's other??

The problem of just breaking your vows because you believe is the right thing to do is also a theme. That's why Jon does not join Robb's army and stayed in the watch. That's why we have Aemon' speech and so on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why don't argue my thoughts instead of someone's other??

The problem of just breaking your vows because you believe is the right thing to do is also a theme. That's why Jon does not join Robb's army and stayed in the watch. That's why we have Aemon' speech and so on.

Aemons speech is about vows being tested and the dilemmas we face, not about how its morally wrong to break oaths! He's not telling us either way how to think. He's just stating that its hard.

As I've said, breaking vows as a morally wrong act doesnt have relevance to the modern day as much as following orders to the letter. The dangers of the Kingsguard empowering tyrants and doing their dirty work has far more harmful implications for society, than desertion or choosing someone else to marry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Of course not. We are never told of anything going on between Sweetie and Wylla. She refused the marriage to a Frey because she despises the treacherous weasels, and rightly so. 

Just because we don't know it, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Aemons speech is about vows being tested and the dilemmas we face, not about how its morally wrong to break oaths! He's not telling us either way how to think. He's just stating that its hard.

As I've said, breaking vows as a morally wrong act doesnt have relevance to the modern day as much as following orders to the letter. The dangers of the Kingsguard empowering tyrants and doing their dirty work has far more harmful implications for society, than desertion or choosing someone else to marry.

Hmmm no. He's saying that we should keep to our vows, that's why he talks about him and the Hoare LC and that's why Jon eventually decides to not march. 

 

As I said, using modern days  politics to back your claim is simply a non argument.  There is a reason why the worst KG are those who actively played the GoT not those who supported tyrants.

One can assume that those who supported tyrants are in a close second post, but they are not the worst.

Ofc we all have to think for ourselves tho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Eternally_His said:

Just because we don't know it, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

But it does. Seriously, what would be the point if the readers are never going to learn about it? You just want everyone and their dogs to be in love w/ Sweetie, but that doesn’t mean they are. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
 
 
 
2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But it does. Seriously, what would be the point if the readers are never going to learn about it? You just want everyone and their dogs to be in love w/ Sweetie, but that doesn’t mean they are. 

Arya x Sandor x Robb sounds compelling too. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, frenin said:

Hmmm no. He's saying that we should keep to our vows, that's why he talks about him and the Hoare LC and that's why Jon eventually decides to not march. 

Thats not what he says at all.

“I will not tell you stay or go. You must make that choice yourself, and live with it all the rest of your days. As I have.” His voice fell to a whisper. “As I have . . . ”

Jon decides not to leave because Mormont forces him to rank his priorities. He doesn't even tell him to not break his oaths, he just presents it as one war being more important than another. 

No one really cares about the damn oath. They care more about the ice zombies. If anything, the series is coming to the point that letter of the oaths matter less than the spirit, and some oaths need to be broken. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

As I said, using modern days  politics to back your claim is simply a non argument.  There is a reason why the worst KG are those who actively played the GoT not those who supported tyrants. One can assume that those who supported tyrants are in a close second post, but they are not the worst. Ofc we all have to think for ourselves tho.

Whether they're following them for personal advantages or following them because they're true believers, the end result can still be the same: doing the dirty work of a tyrant. Dissent isn't the problem. Its lack of it in authoritarian regimes. This is a philosophical and sociological dilemma that society faces now and in the past, and wrestling with this means the work ties back to the Holcaust and the question of why mass violence occurs. It's a deeper question than "break oaths, get hanged." We don't need to be told that, and if that was the larger message his work would be lesser because of it. The radical idea is that maybe we should be less loyal from time to time. . . .

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Jon defends the realm from ice zombies but his family is his main motive to do so, who the fuck cares. If he abandons his post to help Robb - its not the worst thing in the world. Maybe he could have given Robb better advice, and Robb could have been the remaining Stark in Winterfell to face the zombie threat. He would just pay a personal cost. If he leaves his post to attack Ramsay, so what. The Boltons aren't going to do anything to help the Watch and need to go. Stannis is already trying to do that. Who cares if Jon tries next. All he needs to do is defend the realm from all of its many threats; don't care if his motives are for "The Starks" or "the Watch." Don't care if he defends it from wildling raids, Gregor's goons, flaying madmen, pirates, ice zombies, or dragons. If he married someone, so what. If he fathered a bastard, so what. If he didn't plan to attack Ramsay, the assassins would have killed him anyway for letting the wildlings across the Wall. Even if he fucked off to Braavos like Dareon, oh well. At least he didn't empower a tyrannical regime by enthusiastically doing whatever mass murder needed being done that day. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×