The Starks

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I hadn't thought about that. Maybe I'll start a thread about it some time.

Maybe I'll post in it some time

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, that really shows, how bad her situation is- poor girl! 

Poor girl indeed, though life is monumentally better then it was in KL. I think it also shows that Sansa views Tyrion as a friend, or at the least, not an enemy. 

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

First of all. We don't know, if that's really what will be happening in TWOW.

Uh, I guess. After all, we don't really know if TWOW is happening

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Second of all she doesn't like Harry, she is obviously putting on an act, because her creepy "Dad" told her to "bewitch" him. 

She doesn't know Harry.

Word, gotta play the game. 

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Lol she didn't know, that in her hairnet was poison, someone would use to kill Joff with. So "knowingly" is out of place in your sentence.

Well Im pretty confident that nobody knew Joff would die, because Petyr and Olenna wanted to kill Tyrion, not Joffrey.

Whatever, Dontos says remember to wear the hairnet at Joffs wedding night, calls it magic and her ticket back home. She wears it and her husband gets arrested while her ex fiancee coughs to death. She's clearly guilty of something here, its not like she was surprised when Joff started to cough, she was halfway to the godswood to grab her stash of dark clothing when Joff finally croaked. 

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whatever, Dontos says remember to wear the hairnet at Joffs wedding night, calls it magic and her ticket back home. She wears it and her husband gets arrested while her ex fiancee coughs to death. She's clearly guilty of something here, its not like she was surprised when Joff started to cough, she was halfway to the godswood to grab her stash of dark clothing when Joff finally croaked. 

she put 2 and 2 together quickly. She had to flee. Maybe she suspected the hairnet would play a role in her escape, and she wanted to escape, since forever. Maybe she viewed it as a good luck charm. She did certainly not suspect she would be framed for murder. She was a victim here and not guilty of anything. 

[Nagini's Neville]

Quote

Poor girl indeed, though life is monumentally better then it was in KL. I think it also shows that Sansa views Tyrion as a friend, or at the least, not an enemy. 

Yeah, she definitely views Tyrion as kind, even though she shouldn't lol. She definitely has a better heart than me. 

[Hugorfonics]

7 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

she put 2 and 2 together quickly. She had to flee. Maybe she suspected the hairnet would play a role in her escape, and she wanted to escape, since forever. Maybe she viewed it as a good luck charm. She did certainly not suspect she would be framed for murder. She was a victim here and not guilty of anything. 

She was a perpetrator who tried to kill her husband but wound up killing the king. Shes not the victim here. Guilty, kinda, thats why I said shes an accomplice. 

Theres really no court in the world thatd find her innocent, in contrast to her husband whos totally innocent and only condemned and framed because of Sansas action

7 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, she definitely views Tyrion as kind, even though she shouldn't lol. She definitely has a better heart than me. 

 He is kind

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She was a perpetrator who tried to kill her husband but wound up killing the king. Shes not the victim here. Guilty, kinda, thats why I said shes an accomplice. 

Theres really no court in the world thatd find her innocent, in contrast to her husband whos totally innocent and only condemned and framed because of Sansas action

 He is kind

When did she try to kill Tyrion please? 

Quote

He is kind

sexually assaulting a terrified 12 year old war prisoner forced into marriage for no reason whatsoever isn't kind.

[Hugorfonics]

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

When did she try to kill Tyrion please? 

When she brought poison to her escape room and allowed Olenna or whomever to retrieve it and put in her husbands pie

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

sexually assaulting a terrified 12 year old war prisoner forced into marriage for no reason whatsoever isn't kind.

No reason? It was foreplay, and when she was so visibly upset he stopped. Whatever we've been over this a few times already, Sansa calls him kind in direct relation to this scene. He also does other kind stuff throughout the series

[Nagini's Neville]

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No reason? It was foreplay, and when she was so visibly upset he stopped. Whatever we've been over this a few times already, Sansa calls him kind in direct relation to this scene. He also does other kind stuff throughout the series

Foreplay? I'm sorry this is just incredibly offensive to me. He could see that she was deeply upset from the get go. She was shaking so much she had problems to undress. He knew she didn't want the marriage, him, it would be cruel to her and most importantly that she was still a child. We know all of this, because he thought about it before hand. And still he does this to her.

He sees that she is upset (she also cried throughout the ceremony) and that she is still a child, because he tells her so. He says to her "You are a child" and she even tells him her age and he is shocked by it. He knows she is afraid because he asks her and she tells him she is and he still plans to go through with this. Doesn't allow her to cover herself and touches her breast. He looks at her naked body and exposes himself and his erection to her. This is literally using a child for one's own sexual gratification.

Also no amount of "foreplay" would make this any better for a 12 year old, it would only be more sexual assault, but if that's your excuse there also isn't any. He doesn't even try to talk to her about it. I mean he is the adult in the relationship- as gross as it sounds- and she hasn't even kissed a boy before. She has a body of a 12 year old, she is a virgin and not into him- it would have been incredibly painful.

That she thinks this is kind shows what a good heart she has and, her still being very young (when you are very young it is often not so easy to understand what actually happens and that you are being abused, the same thing happened to Tyrion himself with Tywin and Tysha ) and also how desensitized she is to abuse, because it has happened to her her so much, and also the times, in which certain abuse was just normalized.

[Nagini's Neville]

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

When she brought poison to her escape room and allowed Olenna or whomever to retrieve it and put in her husbands pie

Do you have a quote for that? And she didn't know it was poison.

[Elegant Woes]

When we talk about Sansa we need to keep in mind that she rarely addresses when someone sexually abuses her. Look at what happens when Joffrey grabs her breast and kisses her. Or when Dontos asks creepy kisses from her. She has no reaction whatsoever.  

In fact Sansa even romanticizes his behavior by calling him her poor drunk Florian even after she realizes he has been using her. Sansa minimizes the abuse she endures because if she does acknowledge it that means that she is all alone. That would break her. Right now she's in that adrenaline state and the only way for that to go down is when Sansa is safe and surrounded by those who genuinely care and love her. Only then can she face the sexual trauma she endured. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Hm, but I don't really understand why you do haha

Well, because she is the only one left alive to suffer the consequences. Drogo is dead, Rhaego is dead - whatever someone believes about the afterlife or the lack of one they aren't suffering. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Okay. I see. But I just don't think Mirri was thinking about Dany that much at all. She wasn't important to her. She didn't care for her.

So if for example you had been victim of the holocaust and Eva Braun had somehow saved you from the gas chambers and had shown you kindness and protection, but your whole family is dead, a genocide committed on your people. Millions abused and murdered. A war going on. And you get a chance to assassinate Adolf Hitler. Wouldn't you do it? Wouldn't you not maybe also use Eva Braun's kindness to get to him. Would you not do it, just because she, who saved you, loved him?

There would be millions of reasons to kill Hitler, but to do it to hurt Eva Braun, who saved you, just seems the least likely.

I see. I personally don't think I would or at least would like to think I wouldn't. I think people should be judged according to their own person & not what the person they love or are with does. But I do understand why others may take that route. 

To the bolded - Yeah, I suppose Eva being the target would be a little odd. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I just can't really find that in the text at all. It might have been a by-product, but IMO not the main reason for her actions at all. At least I can't find something that is certain evidence for that in the text. And therefore I just think it would illogical, since IMO she just has a very obvious motive for killing Drogo.

For sure, it definitely isn't explicitly stated. I guess it's the way I would feel in Mirri's shoes. That coupled with the fact that she goads Daenerys after the fact, she certainly isn't grateful in the slightest for Dany's kindness. Their exchange reads as a lesson to be taught:

"You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

             "No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Note here that MMD very much implies the baby's life paid for Drogo's. She specifically says the Horse was not the price. Although I think that may be a lie, she tells Dany this to hurt her. Whether it's to hurt her with the truth or a lie. 

"The price was paid," Dany said. "The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid." She rose from her cushions. "Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my sons life." 

Jorah & Mirri take her to Drogo

 

"Your spells are costly, maegi." 

                          "He lives," said Mirri Maz Duur. "You asked for life. You paid for life." 

  "This is not life, for one who was as Drogo was. His life was laughter, and meat roasting over a firepit, and a horse between his legs. His life was an arakh in his hand and his bells ringing in his hari as he rode to meet an enemy. His life was his bloodriders, and the son I was to give him." 

 "You knew what I was buying, and you knew the price, and yet you let me pay it." 

Note here, "This is not life" reminds of MMD later explaining why Dany didn't "save" her because she had nothing left. Also "And you let ME pay it."

Not you let Drogo pay it, you let ME pay it. Mirri answers not with denial but with an explanation. An explanation as to why she let Dany pay the price. 

                      "It was wrong of them to burn my temple," the heavy, flat-nosed woman said placidly. "That angered the Great Shepherd."

"This was no god's work," Dany said coldly. If I look back I am lost. "You cheated me. You murdered my child withing me."

                          "The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."

Mirri doesn't say "Yes I murdered your child within you" but she doesn't deny it. Dany states it & Mirri replies with her reasoning. 

 

"I spoke for you," she said, anguished. "I saved you."

                             "Saved me?" The Lhazareen woman spat. "Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god's house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved."

"Your life." 

             Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. "Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone." 

The parallel between what Mirri gave her as a "life" vs what Mirri felt Dany gave her as a "life" I don't think can be ignored. She specifically tells Dany, look at what life is worth when all else is gone. I don't think it's coincidence that the lesson Dany is getting taught is coming from the women who Dany gave essentially the same thing. 

 Also, because I don't believe Mirri really killed Rhaego I find it odd for her to claim it or allow Dany to think it, unless she wants to punish Dany. 

 

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He could see that she was deeply upset from the get go.

As was Tyrion

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Do you have a quote for that? And she didn't know it was poison.

She figured it out pretty quickly

.

"They're no amethysts. Are they? Are they? You lied."

"Black amethysts," he swore. "There was magic in them."

"There was murder in them!"

.

.

I could never abide the weeping of women, Joff once said, but his mother was the only woman weeping now. In Old Nan's stories the grumkins crafted magic things that could make a wish come true. Did I wish him dead? she wondered, before she remembered that she was too old to believe in grumkins. "Tyrion poisoned him?" Her dwarf husband had hated his nephew, she knew. Could he truly have killed him? Did he know about my hair net, about the black amethysts? He brought Joff wine. How could you make someone choke by putting an amethyst in their wine?

.

"Did Sansa Stark do it, then?" Lord Tyrell demanded.

I would have, if I'd been her. Yet wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He had wrapped the cloak of his protection about her shoulders, though he'd had to stand on a fool's back to do it. "The gods killed Joffrey. He choked on his pigeon pie."

Lord Tyrell reddened. "You would blame the bakers?"

"Them, or the pigeons. Just leave me out of it."

.

"My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want . . ." His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

.

Want more?

[redriver]

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Aha. I doubt you have read most of my posts. And it's called admitting when you are wrong, learning and growing as a person- you should try it some time. 

I would if I was ever wrong.

[Rose of Red Lake]

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I disagree. He wanted power, he wanted to rule. Theon was pure ambition. Outside of Robb I don't think he particularly liked any of the Starks.

Quote

Why do you love the Starks?"
"I …" Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. "… I wanted to be one of them …"
"And never could. We have more in common than you know, my lord. But come."

I believe him when he says this. 

[sweetsunray]

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Let's say I asked you if I could borrow some money & you said no. I continuously asked you, repeatedly, annoying & hounding you until you finally said yes. We meet at the gas station for me to get the borrowed money & you pull out a gun to rob the store. Is that my fault? Am I even partially to blame for that? Let's say I even knew that you did things like this, let's say I knew that the money you were going to let me borrow would likely come from something like this. I still don't think that is my fault. Don't you have a responsibility, as an adult human being, to make good choices regardless of how much someone pleads with or annoys you? 

Actually a more apt comparison would be:

1. You know I rob stores with a gang and I have an arsenal of guns.
2. You keep telling me that you want something and that I and my gang should take it. The job you want me to do is huge.
3. I tell you that in order to do that I will need to rob a store.
4. You say fine and you will come along.
5. We go to the store and it's absolute mayhem

According to the law, even if you yourself never held a gun to anyone inside the story, you were an accomplice and that you are equally responsible for the death of anyone killed during the robbery.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think it's coincidence that the lesson Dany is getting taught is coming from the women who Dany gave essentially the same thing

I agree, its like hey I murdered your village but saved you, arent you grateful to me? Dany expected gratitude, but I still dont think she understood why Mirri was pissed. Mirri was Dany's slave who saw Drogo and Rhaego as justice for burning her village. Since Dany basically burns witches at the stake, her actions should be scrutinized more. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually a more apt comparison would be:

1. You know I rob stores with a gang and I have an arsenal of guns.
2. You keep telling me that you want something and that I and my gang should take it. The job you want me to do is huge.
3. I tell you that in order to do that I will need to rob a store.
4. You say fine and you will come along.
5. We go to the store and it's absolute mayhem

According to the law, even if you yourself never held a gun to anyone inside the story, you were an accomplice and that you are equally responsible for the death of anyone killed during the robbery.

I'll have to re-read that passage because I don't recall Dany telling Drogo him & the khalasar should "take it" only that she wanted her father's throne. I don't recall Drogo saying he has to pillage the Lamb people in order to help her regain the throne or Dany saying ok, fine I'll come along. I'll reread it & get back to you though because if all those things are there or at least implied then I'll change my mind & stance on none of the blame laying with Dany. 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Mirri doesn't say "Yes I murdered your child within you" but she doesn't deny it. Dany states it & Mirri replies with her reasoning. 

MMD doesn't deny it, because it's quite evident that Dany is beyond reasonability, and just out to blame someone else and take it out on that person. It was quite clear that MMD would be Dany's scapegoat by that point, including for the decisions that Dany made despite MMD telling her that it might be better not to do it. Any attempt by MMD to point out Dany's own responsibility in this tragedy, pointing out Drogo's own responsibility to his blood poisoning would anger Dany more. Could she have tried? Sure, but she knew it would fall on deaf ears. Instead, of debating the details, MMD chooses to point out the big picture - Drogo sacked a village of people who never did anything to him, Rhaego would be a Hitler and thank god he wasn't born, you didn't save me.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I agree, its like hey I murdered your village but saved you, arent you grateful to me? Dany expected gratitude, but I still dont think she understood why Mirri was pissed. Mirri was Dany's slave who saw Drogo and Rhaego as justice for burning her village. Since Dany basically burns witches at the stake, her actions should be scrutinized more.

She doesn't understand why Mirri was pissed. I don't know if she understands it even after Mirri gives it back to her & explains it. Her actions should be scrutinized, I don't know if she burns "witches" at the stake but she certainly burnt this one. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

MMD doesn't deny it, because it's quite evident that Dany is beyond reasonability, and just out to blame someone else and take it out on that person. It was quite clear that MMD would be Dany's scapegoat by that point, including for the decisions that Dany made despite MMD telling her that it might be better not to do it. Any attempt by MMD to point out Dany's own responsibility in this tragedy, pointing out Drogo's own responsibility to his blood poisoning would anger Dany more. Could she have tried? Sure, but she knew it would fall on deaf ears. Instead, of debating the details, MMD chooses to point out the big picture - Drogo sacked a village of people who never did anything to him, Rhaego would be a Hitler and thank god he wasn't born, you didn't save me

I disagree 100% that MMD's motive was to not anger Dany further. She purposefully angers Dany further. It doesn't make sense IMO for Mirri to think I don't want to anger her further so I'll let her believe I killed her husband & son, because telling her that her son died as a consequence of Jorah coming into the tent or that her husband died because he wouldn't follow medical instructions will anger her more? 

I don't think it's evident at all that Dany is beyond resonability, what makes you say so? She isn't acting crazed, she is asking Mirri basically: Why? Why did you do this to me when I saved you? 

If she truly believed telling Dany that Drogo died because he wouldn't follow instructions & Rhaego because of coming in the tent would anger Dany she could have not said anything. Instead she says things she knows will piss her off. 

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree 100% that MMD's motive was to not anger Dany further. She purposefully angers Dany further. It doesn't make sense IMO for Mirri to think I don't want to anger her further so I'll let her believe I killed her husband & son, because telling her that her son died as a consequence of Jorah coming into the tent or that her husband died because he wouldn't follow medical instructions will anger her more? 

I don't think it's evident at all that Dany is beyond resonability, what makes you say so? She isn't acting crazed, she is asking Mirri basically: Why? Why did you do this to me when I saved you? 

If she truly believed telling Dany that Drogo died because he wouldn't follow instructions & Rhaego because of coming in the tent would anger Dany she could have not said anything. Instead she says things she knows will piss her off. 

My point wasn't that MMD didn't want to anger Dany further. My point is that MMD recognized that no matter what she'd say, Dany would be angry. So, she might as well go for the bigger truth than the minor details. And the bigger truth is that Drogo was a mass murderer, that Rhaego would have grown up to be a mass murderer and that MMD doesn't feel any gratitude towards Dany.

Dany is beyond reasonability: she accuses MMD of killing her child, while MMD warned her against having the ritual performed, warned her against entering the tent, told her it looked like a lizard, etc... Dany ignores all these things and jumps to "you killed my unborn child". It sounds VERY irrational to me, to hear Dany say that, knowing what actually occurred. Dany sounds like a relative of a fatal patient who ended up in a coma after the life saving operation failed and accuses the surgeon of wanting to kill her husband. If this was an ER episode, Dany would be the irrational relative.

Now, normally the surgeon would pity Dany for accusing him irrationally, especially if the trauma of the husband ending up fatally wounded was followed by mayhem that caused a premature birth resulting in a miscarriage. But that's because the surgeon isn't the slave of that irrational relation, nor saw his whole family, friends, colleagues and hospital being burned, pillaged, raped and enslaved by the couple.