The Starks

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She was collateral damage. He couldn't simply tell her to stay in bed while he killed Tywin and escaped to Essos

As if she would have stopped him from killing his father or escaping. He killed her out of revenge. 

 

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In fact she thinks of going to him because hes not Littlefinger

 

She never thinks that either. She just tries to "use" her marriage to not have to marry someone else.

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was an accomplice herself.

Excuse me? 

[Nagini's Neville]

@Hugorfonics Tyrion and Sansa will never ever ever get back together

                       He will talk to his friends talk to her friends talk to her,

                       but they will never ever ever ever get back together

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"All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire."

 

I'm trusting @Lyanna<3Rhaegar's predictions, that she will find her prince charming

[Elegant Woes]

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She threw back the coverlets. I must be brave. Her torments would soon be ended, one way or the other.  - ASOS, Sansa IV

Sansa thinks this on the day she's supposed to escape. Sure it isn't explicit but the implication is strong. Either she will get out of King's Landing successfully or she will do something else to end her torments. Killing herself is the another way. Sansa is this dead set to get away from the Lannisters, including Tyrion. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Damn, never put that together. Pretty horrible there. Even if it is to save the world. Yeesh. Fucking Bran

For sure. It breaks my heart thinking about it. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm trusting @Lyanna<3Rhaegar's predictions, that she will find her prince charming

Absolutely! 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa thinks this on the day she's supposed to escape. Sure it isn't explicit but the implication is strong. Either she will get out of King's Landing successfully or she will do something else to end her torments. Killing herself is the another way. Sansa is this dead set to get away from the Lannisters, including Tyrion. 

Yeah, I mean she was certainly in a very bad situation but I gotta agree with Hugor that she wasn't specifically trying to get away from Tyrion, she wanted away from the whole situation 

[kissdbyfire]

You can all brace yourselves, b/c Bran will defo warg skinchange into someone else. And yeah, it will be majorly important, and will happen early on in Winds. Next time though he will have consent from the person he’s skinchanging into. Better?

And I wholeheartedly disagree w the “fucking Bran” sentiment. He’s a little boy who got crippled in a vile and horrible way, and saw his family home destryoed. And now, this 10 yr old is doing something he feels is wrong, but clearly doesn’t fully understand how terrible it is. But skinchanging into a human being was a necessary part for him to master the ability to do so. Hodor was/is his training wheels, so to speak; it’s how he’ll get the practice he needs. And the first and second times he did it, it was to save his friends. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

You can all brace yourselves, b/c Bran will defo warg skinchange into someone else. And yeah, it will be majorly important, and will happen early on in Winds. Next time though he will have consent from the person he’s skinchanging into. Better?

And I wholeheartedly disagree w the “fucking Bran” sentiment. He’s a little boy who got crippled in a vile and horrible way, and saw his family home destryoed. And now, this 10 yr old is doing something he feels is wrong, but clearly doesn’t fully understand how terrible it is. But skinchanging into a human being was a necessary part for him to master the ability to do so. Hodor was/is his training wheels, so to speak; it’s how he’ll get the practice he needs. And the first and second times he did it, it was to save his friends. 

Yeah, I don't say eff Bran & I get it, for now. It's what may come that worries me. 

[Nagini's Neville]

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

You can all brace yourselves, b/c Bran will defo warg skinchange into someone else. And yeah, it will be majorly important, and will happen early on in Winds. Next time though he will have consent from the person he’s skinchanging into. Better?

And I wholeheartedly disagree w the “fucking Bran” sentiment. He’s a little boy who got crippled in a vile and horrible way, and saw his family home destryoed. And now, this 10 yr old is doing something he feels is wrong, but clearly doesn’t fully understand how terrible it is. But skinchanging into a human being was a necessary part for him to master the ability to do so. Hodor was/is his training wheels, so to speak; it’s how he’ll get the practice he needs. And the first and second times he did it, it was to save his friends. 

If he doesn't turn into Joffrey, I can't see, that I would ever dislike him until he turns 13/14 anyway. He is one of my favorite characters so disliking him would be hard for me anyway. 

[Pontius Pilate]

On 1/24/2020 at 7:02 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Some of the posts here are just so... loaded w/ vicious hatred it’s scary. And then on top of the hatred, there’s posts chockablock full of inaccuracies and made up shit fan fic. I can’t even. I mean, Starks warging into wolves and hunting down the small folk?

The thing is, these haters make it so bloody easy it’s not even funny. 

Nymeria's abnormal behavior of destruction can be blamed on Arya's state of mind.  The link between the two is present.  Arya's craziness and inner anger is making Nymeria behave abnormally.  Destruction of livestock on a scale beyond what's necessary to eat.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

58 minutes ago, Centurion Piso said:

Nymeria's abnormal behavior of destruction can be blamed on Arya's state of mind.  The link between the two is present.  Arya's craziness and inner anger is making Nymeria behave abnormally.  Destruction of livestock on a scale beyond what's necessary to eat.

 

Got any proof for that? Quotes?

[Finley McLeod]

It's obvious Arya is mentally and emotionally damaged.  It is also obvious the telepathy connection exists between Arya and her wolf.  Wolves do not menace humans except to feed on their livestock and take only what they need for sustenance.  The only questions remains if the wolf's strange behavior is due to the connection with a deranged minded little girl or it's out of it's natural environment.  Creatures of the north have not fared well in the warmer south.  Perhaps that has also twisted Nymeria's mind.  Must be the heat, eh.

[Hugorfonics]

23 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It wasn’t meant as a joke. But then @Lyanna<3Rhaegar explained what you meant. I completely misunderstood what you were saying, and for that I apologise. 

 

Np

23 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

As if she would have stopped him from killing his father or escaping. He killed her out of revenge. 

All she had to do was scream and Tywins guards would have came through the door

23 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She never thinks that either.

Yea she did

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He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered. But she was Sansa too . . . and sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle . . . but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she'd known at King's Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei's ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr.

 

23 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She just tries to "use" her marriage to not have to marry someone else.

When? Shes all over Harry (in twow sample)

23 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Excuse me? 

Your excused.  Joffrey was murdered by the amethysts that Sansa knowingly brought

22 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa thinks this on the day she's supposed to escape. Sure it isn't explicit but the implication is strong. Either she will get out of King's Landing successfully or she will do something else to end her torments. Killing herself is the another way. Sansa is this dead set to get away from the Lannisters, including Tyrion. 

Um. I dont think it implies suicide, but possible failure. A million things could go wrong and her neck would be on the line then. 

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

You can all brace yourselves, b/c Bran will defo warg skinchange into someone else. And yeah, it will be majorly important, and will happen early on in Winds. Next time though he will have consent from the person he’s skinchanging into. Better?

I guess that'd be a little better. But who would be ok with that? Only someone whos physiologically broken already, like Reek.... Holy fuck, is that whats happening? That's wild! I think your right 

Its still horrendous. Its one thing to use Theon like Ned, Balon and Ramsay, but its another to use the Aspatori like the Ghiscari do. What Bran does is even worse. Warging is meant for a submissive mutt, one whos used to grabbing the newspaper and being ordered about, or even skinchanging into birds is ok cuz theyre also stupid animals. But a human? One with coherent thoughts and intelligence, with life? To be treated like Pinocchio? That shits as dark as you can get

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And I wholeheartedly disagree w the “fucking Bran” sentiment. He’s a little boy who got crippled in a vile and horrible way, and saw his family home destryoed. And now, this 10 yr old is doing something he feels is wrong, but clearly doesn’t fully understand how terrible it is. 

(Sad childhood. Shit happens. A hard past is never an excuse for wrongdoing.)

He knows. Like he knows how terrible it is to be a cannibal yet does it anyway. 

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But skinchanging into a human being was a necessary part for him to master the ability to do so. Hodor was/is his training wheels, so to speak; it’s how he’ll get the practice he needs.

None of his trainers or teachers ever told him do or attempt that

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

. And the first and second times he did it, it was to save his friends. 

And when Bran will (probably) retard Hodor (through some Jeremy Bearimy situation) itll be to save man kind from annihilation. 

Hodor still must live his life though, with the mind of a toddler

[The Fattest Leech]

On 1/24/2020 at 12:11 AM, Nevets said:

You're thinking of the show.  In the book, the deserter (Gared) didn't say anything at all.  So there was no warning for Ned to ignore.  Ned has no idea what is happening beyond the Wall.

I don't think there was much death because of this.  Obviously, they wanted justice for whoever tried to kill their child, but so would just about any parent.  So, they are no different than anyone else.

I've absolutely no idea what you are talking about here..  In fact, I don't think I have seen so much blatant nonsense in one paragraph in quite some time.

Right, Gared was too in shock (or something) to speak.

 

 

In general: So as is the norm for everyone south of the wall, they assume the tales are true about the free folk and they are the cause of all that is wrong. Ned seems to think it Mance Rayder that is the threat, because the whole prejudice and lost memory that now says "ooooh, the bad wildlings are doing bad things" paranoia that is taught to those south of the wall. It is Catelyn that thinks there are darker things, but this is a hangover from the original idea that Martin had where he had Cat (with Arya and Bran) go with her far north where she is killed by the Others up there instead of being killed by the "Others" of the Riverlands instead.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."

"Is it the wildlings?" she asked.

"Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."

"Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder.

Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.

His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."

[The Fattest Leech]

10 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

It's obvious Arya is mentally and emotionally damaged.  It is also obvious the telepathy connection exists between Arya and her wolf.  Wolves do not menace humans except to feed on their livestock and take only what they need for sustenance.  The only questions remains if the wolf's strange behavior is due to the connection with a deranged minded little girl or it's out of it's natural environment.  Creatures of the north have not fared well in the warmer south.  Perhaps that has also twisted Nymeria's mind.  Must be the heat, eh.

Dealing with the Freys is a long time coming for Martin and I cannot wait because he has built this tension up just so well across the entire ASOIAF series that the payoff will be glorious. *And by Freys, I do not mean all down to the few innocent few, but the main players of the twisted game.

A long time coming...

The Mystery Knight

"The Hand is kind." Butterwell stumbled off, so blind with grief that he did not even seem to recognize Dunk as he passed.

"You have my leave to go as well, Lord Frey," Rivers commanded. "We will speak again later."

"As my lord commands." Frey led his son from the pavilion. [the son being the snot nosed Walder]

[WolfOfWinter]

It's true that everyone suffers in the series but the things that befall the Starks appear especially tragic because 1. most of the family consists of children and 2. the Starks were perfectly content to not play the game and just live their lives. They only got involved because Ned wanted justice for Jon Arryn, an inherently noble goal.

Tyrion and Dany, while considered heroes by some, made an active choice to involve themselves in the game of thrones for personal gain and ambition. Tyrion's atrocities speak for themselves. As for Dany, for all her claims about wanting to settle down with a husband and children, she still tried to persuade Drogo to invade another continent to put her son, prophesied to be a future dark lord, on the Iron Throne. That choice had disastrous consequences for the innocent Lamb People, and Dany herself, who then chose to birth weapons of mass destruction instead of selling the dragon eggs because she chose war over settling down. Between that and the systemic murder of 12-year-olds in Astapor, the profiting from the slave markets outside Meereen, the torture of innocent girls in front of their likely innocent father, the crucifixions of random people, the burning of Mirri, and the many things to come, she's a morally dark grey character at best.

Nothing the current generation of Starks has done even compares to Dany allowing the torture of the wineseller's daughters in a fit of rage after acknowledging that the man is probably innocent and torture is ineffective anyway.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

45 minutes ago, WolfOfWinter said:

It's true that everyone suffers in the series but the things that befall the Starks appear especially tragic because 1. most of the family consists of children and 2. the Starks were perfectly content to not play the game and just live their lives. They only got involved because Ned wanted justice for Jon Arryn, an inherently noble goal.

Tyrion and Dany, while considered heroes by some, made an active choice to involve themselves in the game of thrones for personal gain and ambition. Tyrion's atrocities speak for themselves. As for Dany, for all her claims about wanting to settle down with a husband and children, she still tried to persuade Drogo to invade another continent to put her son, prophesied to be a future dark lord, on the Iron Throne. That choice had disastrous consequences for the innocent Lamb People, and Dany herself, who then chose to birth weapons of mass destruction instead of selling the dragon eggs because she chose war over settling down. Between that and the systemic murder of 12-year-olds in Astapor, the profiting from the slave markets outside Meereen, the torture of innocent girls in front of their likely innocent father, the crucifixions of random people, the burning of Mirri, and the many things to come, she's a morally dark grey character at best.

Nothing the current generation of Starks has done even compares to Dany allowing the torture of the wineseller's daughters in a fit of rage after acknowledging that the man is probably innocent and torture is ineffective anyway.

I'm a staunch Stark supporter but I think you have some flaws in  your reasoning in regard to Dany.

First and foremost she didn't try to persuade Drogo until after Viserys died so I don't think it's so much about her wanting power as it is feeling it's her right & duty - similar to Stannis. Her son wasn't prophesied to be a "future dark lord" he was to be the stallion that mounted the world - This can be seen as someone who will unite all the peoples of the world, and not necessarily a bad thing.

The Lamb people would have suffered that fate at the hands of the Dothraki regardless of any decisions Daenerys makes, that's kinda what the Dothraki do.

Who was she to sell her eggs & settle down with? She had just lost her entire family, & I don't blame her a bit for hatching the dragon eggs.

Systematic murder of slavers in Astapor you mean? She has tried to end slavery & while her methods haven't always been successful, the reader knows this is her purpose & that she doesn't have any malicious intent because we have her POV. If she was just hell bent on ruling the world or sitting the IT why waste her time on the slavers at all?

The girls were questioned, potentially harshly, but we don't have enough info to call it torture & while I would never condone torture, her men were being killed & she could not get any answers from anyone.

What random people did she crucify? 

Mirri Maaz Duur earned her fate & yes it was a terrible one, but not undeserved. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 1/27/2020 at 6:24 AM, WolfOfWinter said:

she's a morally dark grey character at best.

She reminds me of Theon in many ways, both worship an identity built around dominance and conquest, both don't think very hard about the consequences. Of Theon, Luwin reminds Bran that he is Ironborn, that "cruel places breed cruel peoples" and I think that's what is going on with Dany. But Theon deep down wanted to be a Stark and Dany has decided she wants to be a Valyrian Conquering Blood Purity Dragon Lord so... I can see where that's going. 

The Stark identity is about surviving harsh conditions, protecting, and building, this is why Theon wanting to be a Stark is actually a good thing and Dany wanting to be a Targaryen/Valyrian is probably the worst possible group of people she could emulate.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 1/26/2020 at 7:11 AM, Centurion Piso said:

Nymeria's abnormal behavior of destruction can be blamed on Arya's state of mind.  The link between the two is present.  Arya's craziness and inner anger is making Nymeria behave abnormally.  Destruction of livestock on a scale beyond what's necessary to eat.

Or I don't know. Nymeria is a bloody direwolf, a wild animal who behaves on instinct. 

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 But Theon deep down wanted to be a Stark

I disagree. He wanted power, he wanted to rule. Theon was pure ambition. Outside of Robb I don't think he particularly liked any of the Starks.