Bernie Mac Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 In reply to @Lyanna<3Rhaegar Quote He is saying "I'm sorry I let them rape you" but realistically he could not have stopped them from raping her But he thinks he can. More than once. We only have to read his quotes on the subject. You are inventing an argument that Tyrion never makes. Quote & he isn't the one that ordered it. No one claimed that he did. I don't want to be rude, but lets be concise here. Inventing arguments not made to make your position look better is a poor strategy. Quote He is taking responsibility for something that isn't his. It is his. Just because his father was the bigger asshole in that situation does not excuse Tyrion of responsibilty. He raped the woman he loved because he was told she was a whore. Quote He is not to blame for Tywin ordering the soldiers to rape her. Come on! Why the need to argue in bad faith. At no point have I suggested this. Do you honestly think that is what I was trying to say? Quote He likely feels some guilt here after finding out she actually wasn't a whore because now he realizes this woman has done absolutely nothing wrong to him. It bothered him even when he believed her a whore but he had the anger of being lied to & tricked to lean on. And of raping her. It is right there in the quotes I provided to you. These are not mutually exclusive points, by the way. Quote How would he have stopped it? Tywin ordered the soldiers to rape her & they did. What would Tyrion have be able to do about that? Who knows, but on multiple occasions he thinks he can. We literally know nothing about the event other than Tyrion's account. If Tyrion thinks he could have stopped it then in his mind he could have. Quote He has some control over his own actions but not over the actions of the soldiers. Possibly true. Don't get me wrong, I have never argued that Tyrion is at fault for the actions of the soldiers, just his own actions. He may have thought he could have ordered it to stop or pleaded for it to. We don't know, all we know is that he thought it was in his power to have it stopped and the only reason he did not was because he thought she was a whore. It is why he wants Jaime dead. Quote It doesn't really make any sense for him to have participated because she was a whore. Sense to who? You are arguing your own headcannon versus the actual text. This is a bad faith argument, you get that, right? I am going by what Tyrion actually says, you are going by your feelings. Quote Who would want to have sex with a woman that has just been raped by multiple men, The fuck kind of argument is that? In an ideal world, no one. In the actual world, many people, some deplorable, many who are ignorant of the truth. Tyrion literally rapes a crying slave at Illyrio's. Not once, but twice. Does that make sense to you? Quote likely crying & distraught, likely bruised & battered, Possibly not. This is a rape in their world, not ours. She would have been scared shitless. Crying and fighting could lead to her death. The people who rule all the lands she has ever known are doing this to her. GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. Luckily we live in a more civilized era, we know there is consequences to such acts, that there are people in place who can punish rapists. Tysha does not have that, she would know her place. Tyrion did not realize she was not a whore till Jaime told him, that much we know is true. Quote & most certainly not a willing participant. No one claimed she was. What is up with you and the strawman arguments? Quote I take your post to mean he raped her because he thought she deserved it, Nope. You have invented an argument I have never made. Quote as punishment for tricking him, which I whole heartedly disagree with. Yes, it is very, very easy to make up an argument not made and disagree with it. Quote Again, the guardsmen wouldn't have needed Tyrion's help. This is one woman against 100 guardsmen. The 100 was an exageration by Tyrion, he says as much. Why write so many paragraphs on a subject you are not that familair with? Quote What would they need his help with? Who claimed this? Quote snip I stopped reading your reply here, I am not going to bother reading your other reply on this subject as this one was full of arguments I had not made. wtf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Did you just start a thread to borderline personally attack @Lyanna<3Rhaegar ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Well on this i agree with @Bernie Mac, the moment Tyrion was convinced Tysha was a whore, he seemed to stop looking her as a person and acted on it, i don't believe Tywin forced him, i'm absolutely sure he would've had Tyrion refused him tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jingo Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 I can't help but feel that we only have a small portion of an argument, but I'll still give this one a shot. I admit that I haven't read A Dance with Dragons (kind of gave up after A Feast for Crows since the wait times were so long), but I think this is a thorny issue. Did Tyrion rape Tysha? Yes, of course he did. She was either raped outright, or coerced into being a 'whore' prior to the intercourse by Tywin/Jaime/ect. In both cases she either didn't consent, or her consent was coerced and so didn't count. But I don't think this necessarily makes Tyrion evil or immoral. He too was coerced. He was what, thirteen? Just barely into puberty and coerced by his fear of Tywin. He was also lied to by Tywin, who set up the scene to look as if Tysha was simply a quiet but willing whore. Between his fear and his lack of understanding about what was actually happening at the time - he's not innocent, but he's not wholly guilty either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: But he thinks he can. More than once. We only have to read his quotes on the subject. You are inventing an argument that Tyrion never makes. It doesn't really matter what he thinks he can do. Some people think they can fly but they can't. What could Tyrion have done to stop or prevent the guardsman from raping Tysha? 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: No one claimed that he did. I don't want to be rude, but lets be concise here. Inventing arguments not made to make your position look better is a poor strategy. I think you misunderstand me. Just because I said he didn't order it does not mean I'm implying you said he did or inventing anything. I noted that he doesn't order it in an effort to show that he is not to blame for it because he couldn't have stopped the guardsman & because he didn't order it. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: It is his. Just because his father was the bigger asshole in that situation does not excuse Tyrion of responsibilty. He raped the woman he loved because he was told she was a whore. I disagree, as I've said. I don't think he rapes her because he is told she is a whore, I think the reason is much more complicated & deeper than that. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: Come on! Why the need to argue in bad faith. At no point have I suggested this. Do you honestly think that is what I was trying to say? So, these were your quotes in regards to Tyrion taking responsibility. It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. One is referring to helping his father's guardsmen rape her & the other is saying that he let them rape her. I responded by saying he couldn't have done anything to stop them from raping her, thus him saying he "let" them is taking responsibility for something that isn't his. How is that arguing in bad faith? 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: And of raping her. It is right there in the quotes I provided to you. These are not mutually exclusive points, by the way. Yeah, I agree some of the guilt he feels is over raping her. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: Who knows, but on multiple occasions he thinks he can. We literally know nothing about the event other than Tyrion's account. If Tyrion thinks he could have stopped it then in his mind he could have. Just two quotes up you accuse me of "arguing in bad faith" because I say Tyrion is not to blame for Tywin ordering the guardsmen to rape her. If he could have stopped them (there isn't a single chance he could have) then would it not be partially his fault for the guardsmen raping her? If had the ability to stop it & didn't then he is to blame as well. Because he didn't have the ability to stop it nor did he order it he is not to blame for the guardsmen. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: Possibly true. Don't get me wrong, I have never argued that Tyrion is at fault for the actions of the soldiers, just his own actions. He may have thought he could have ordered it to stop or pleaded for it to. We don't know, all we know is that he thought it was in his power to have it stopped and the only reason he did not was because he thought she was a whore. It is why he wants Jaime dead. I agree we don't have enough information to say he did or didn't try to resist but Tyrion is smart. There is no way he believes that if he orders these guardsmen to disobey Tywin that they are going to. I don't think he thinks it's in his man power to stop it at all. He just blames himself. Like when someone blames themselves for a death but it isn't really their fault, they just carry the guilt. He is mad at Jaime for lying to him about her being a whore. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: Sense to who? You are arguing your own headcannon versus the actual text. This is a bad faith argument, you get that, right? I am going by what Tyrion actually says, you are going by your feelings. Oh boy, you with all your "bad faith" & "inventing" things. Show me where Tyrion says he rapes Tysha because she is a whore. He doesn't. You are gathering from the context clues that he raped her because that's what you do to whores & he was told she is a whore. I'm gathering from the context clues that he raped her for several reasons combined but none of them are because he suddenly felt towards her the same as he does a whore rather than his wife. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: The fuck kind of argument is that? In an ideal world, no one. In the actual world, many people, some deplorable, many who are ignorant of the truth. Tyrion literally rapes a crying slave at Illyrio's. Not once, but twice. Does that make sense to you? No normal person would want to do that & while there may be some depraved individuals in that room surely they are not all depraved. There are some that do not want to carry out what they are bid. But they do anyway, that's my point. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: No one claimed she was. What is up with you and the strawman arguments? You snipped that off the end of another sentence. I never said or implied anyone said she was a willing participant. It was stated in a list of reasons as to why most men would not WANT to have sex with her. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: Nope. You have invented an argument I have never made. Maybe you should go back & read your own posts? What you said is " He allowed it to happened and participated because he was told she was a whore" Now maybe you didn't mean that he raped her because he thought she deserved it for being a whore but that is what I gather from this sentence. I guarantee you I'm not the only person that would take that from what you said but whether you meant that or not doesn't mean I've invented anything. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: Yes, it is very, very easy to make up an argument not made and disagree with it. Ok, if you didn't mean that Tyrion thought she deserved her "punishment" for tricking him & being a whore what does "He allowed it to happened & participated because he was told she was a whore" mean exactly? One wouldn't think there are that many ways to read that sentence but apparently there are, enlighten me. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: The 100 was an exageration by Tyrion, he says as much. Why write so many paragraphs on a subject you are not that familair with? I suppose the same reason you engage in conversations that infuriate you so. The same reason you combat what you don't agree with by calling it bad faith, strawman, or invented? Just to make you aware I've written much more on things I knew much less about. But really you take this mistake to jab at me? Why? I seriously have tried very hard to be nice & civil with you since our last discussion that didn't go so civilly. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: Who claimed this? See above. The quote you quoted said Tyrion was taking responsibility for "helping" the guardsmen. 3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: I stopped reading your reply here, I am not going to bother reading your other reply on this subject as this one was full of arguments I had not made. wtf! It wasn't full of arguments you didn't make, it pertained to the things you said & the quotes you gave. Really though, there is no reason for this. If you don't want to respond, don't. You don't have to announce it, or be rude, or get angry. This is not that big of a deal. We were just having a discussion & I don't know what it is about me that inflames you so much but I promise you I don't do it on purpose (usually) The very first conversation we had I was being rude to you as well & after that ended I promised myself if we ever conversated again I would be respectful regardless of how you behaved & I'm going to. I'm sorry if I have offended you in some way, but it wasn't intentionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said: Did you just start a thread to borderline personally attack @Lyanna<3Rhaegar ? I want to say no, but there is something about me that just really rubs him the wrong way. Idk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, The Jingo said: Did Tyrion rape Tysha? Yes, of course he did. She was either raped outright, or coerced into being a 'whore' prior to the intercourse by Tywin/Jaime/ect. In both cases she either didn't consent, or her consent was coerced and so didn't count. The problem with this assumption however imo is, that the scenario is way to brutal for that. Even a sex worker would not consent to having sex with 100 soldiers, just because it is very unlikely that you'd survive it. It's a miracle, that Tysha didn't die and maybe she did in the end, we don't know. If she'd have to pretend to be a whore for 3 men, then maybe I could see, how they blackmailed her into it, but 100? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Did I miss something? When and where did this thread start? Would like to read @Lyanna<3Rhaegar's straw-men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jingo Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 23 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said: The problem with this assumption however imo is, that the scenario is way to brutal for that. Even a sex worker would not consent to having sex with 100 soldiers, just because it is very unlikely that you'd survive it. It's a miracle, that Tysha didn't die and maybe she did in the end, we don't know. If she'd have to pretend to be a whore for 3 men, then maybe I could see, how they blackmailed her into it, but 100? No Was it a hundred? I'm not super familiar with the situation but I thought it was just an undefined amount, like not a hundred but maybe like five or six. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Just now, The Jingo said: Was it a hundred? I'm not super familiar with the situation but I thought it was just an undefined amount, like not a hundred but maybe like five or six. no it was 100. they all gave her a coin and she had 100 in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jingo Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 25 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said: no it was 100. they all gave her a coin and she had 100 in the end. Yeah, that's pretty well inhuman. But we also do desperate things to survive. If Tywin had said "You will claim to be a whore or I'll kill you and your entire family and everyone you ever knew or cared about" - well like I said, it's coerced and she didn't consent. But she might pretend to be a whore out of fear of the threat. It might not be believable to anyone thinking straight, but Tyrion seemed to honestly believe Tysha was a whore. So either he was a fool or subconsciously he knows the truth but denies it because that would make him party to an unspeakable crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 41 minutes ago, The Jingo said: Yeah, that's pretty well inhuman. But we also do desperate things to survive. If Tywin had said "You will claim to be a whore or I'll kill you and your entire family and everyone you ever knew or cared about" - well like I said, it's coerced and she didn't consent. But she might pretend to be a whore out of fear of the threat. It might not be believable to anyone thinking straight, but Tyrion seemed to honestly believe Tysha was a whore. So either he was a fool or subconsciously he knows the truth but denies it because that would make him party to an unspeakable crime. I think the pain and her injuries would be to great for her to not beg and cry and scream, even if she did agree to play the role of a sex-worker, just like when you are tortured, you know? Not that a sex worker could endure such a treatment, but Tysha was not even used to "normal sex work", she probably didn't have a lot of sexual experience at all being just a normal 14 year old girl. So it must have been very clear, that she didn't want it. But @Wall Flower has a very good take on things. Will they come, if i summon them here? Probably not. LOL After some reevaluating of the whole issue and @Wall Flower's help , I'd come to the belief, that the reason why Tyrion raped Tysha did not really have anything to do with him believing she was a whore, but Tywin's abuse of him, as you said he was just 13 and he got an erection, which was likely used against him in this abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said: Did I miss something? When and where did this thread start? Would like to read @Lyanna<3Rhaegar's straw-men It started here. He just doesn't like me for some reason or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: It started here. He just doesn't like me for some reason or another. Merci!! How could he? You do not even have an "extra much" personality like me! Hm, the topic is... intense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jingo Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 57 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said: After some reevaluating of the whole issue and @Wall Flower's help , I'd come to the belief, that the reason why Tyrion raped Tysha did not really have anything to do with him believing she was a whore, but Tywin's abuse of him, as you said he was just 13 and he got an erection, which was likely used against him in this abuse. Yeah. I'd say that even if Tyrion sincerely thought Tysha was a whore he wouldn't have wanted to have sex with her. His heart was just broken, so why would he want to get jiggy with a whore after she just boned a hundred dudes in front of him? Like even from a logistical perspective she was probably pretty out of it and covered in sweat and other fluids and filth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Just now, Nagini's Neville said: Merci!! How could he? You do not even have an "extra much" personality like me! Hm, the topic is... intense Haha!! Sometimes I can be a little extra much. He & I have clashed before. Our personalities just don't mesh well I think lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, The Jingo said: Yeah. I'd say that even if Tyrion sincerely thought Tysha was a whore he wouldn't have wanted to have sex with her. His heart was just broken, so why would he want to get jiggy with a whore after she just boned a hundred dudes in front of him? Like even from a logistical perspective she was probably pretty out of it and covered in sweat and other fluids and filth. And blood. Tyrion even mentions the blood a couple of time, when he thinks back to it. I think sometimes ppl don't grasp the reality of a gang-rape like that. Ppl, who have been gang-raped by a only a few ppl have serious injuries to deal with, if they survive. Just watch a doc about the dangers of prostitution or something. And those are also soldiers, who are used to rape after battle. Tywin probably picked the ones, who are down for it anyway and for sure didn't tell them to be gentle. Sometimes I feel like people confuse the reality of that scene with what they've seen in porn. Tyrion would likely not want to sleep with her, because like every normal person he was probably absolutely horrified and traumatized by this scene. Every normal person would empathize with this brutalized young girl. Most ppl would not want to have sex with a crying or "dead as a corpse inside" bleeding and injured girl, who is clearly suffering and not consenting. I think he knows, what happened there was rape and a crime, there is no way he could have not known. IMO the "she was a whore"- aspect is only important, because he knows now she never loved him, it was all a lie, not that he would have thought she deserves rape because of it or enjoyed any part of it. He was also abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 32 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Haha!! Sometimes I can be a little extra much. He & I have clashed before. Our personalities just don't mesh well I think lol Yeah I know what it's like. I also had my clash with SS over Sansa and Arya. I just think it is sometimes really hard to not get emotional over those topics, you're so invested in. Its hard to dial it back again and stay focused on the text. And sometimes, yeah personalities clash. We actually clashed a bit too at some point LOL, but I think it didn't really become a "clash", because our personalities are a like, when it comes to debating. We a both willing to potentially change our minds- except when it comes to Jon and Sansa of course LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 @Lyanna<3Rhaegar it's really not nice of WF to just let us hang there.LOL Two days ago I basically still had the same opinion like Bernie Mac, I would have agreed with him and everything, but they changed my mind sufficiently with their short post. And now they are letting us do their work LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 50 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said: Yeah I know what it's like. I also had my clash with SS over Sansa and Arya. I just think it is sometimes really hard to not get emotional over those topics, you're so invested in. Its hard to dial it back again and stay focused on the text. And sometimes, yeah personalities clash. We actually clashed a bit too at some point LOL, but I think it didn't really become a "clash", because our personalities are a like, when it comes to debating. We a both willing to potentially change our minds- except when it comes to Jon and Sansa of course LOL Haha I agree & we definitely get emotionally invested in the characters. I'm happy that we were able to come together & see each other's points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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