Jump to content
OberynBlackfyre

Getting Away with Murder:Catelyn Stark

Recommended Posts

So I want to preface this with the statement that I do not hate or even dislike Catelyn Stark.  I only believe that her POVs are some of the strangest in the books, as is her story- and I think it could be the fact that we needed a POV in the Stark camp....although it is VERY strange that we get POVs from every other Stark (except Rickon, but I mean he’s a baby) except Robb, which I would even go as far as to say that could have been a bad choice. 
 

with Catelyn Stark I believe that her story is one of narratives that break the “realism” of the story. While I think it’s a good themed narrative of grief, anxiety, and then somewhat madness, I think that the decisions made for her character don’t gel with the world as a whole. 
 

Her being sent to Renly is I think EXTREMELY strange. Rightly so, it is remarked upon that it seems Robb is “hiding behind his mothers skirt”.  Catelyn is not known to have any skill as a diplomat, and is in a state of fried due to Neds death and her daughters imprisonment. 
 

And as she comes back to Riverrun, she talks about having respect for the people around her, yet she commonly disregards or bulls over peoples commands and basically forces her will upon people. Not only that, but even the North which she says to “love” she basically abandons simply to comfort her dying father which is sweet, but does NOTHING to further the war effort or to help support her existing family. 
 

Then the coup de gras is when she FREES Jaime Lannister but still somehow remains a free woman for all intent and purposes.  She does not even get any sense of punishment, which at the very least you would think that Robb would send her to Seagard right away after returning since she obviously cannot be trusted.  
 

Overall I think what sucks is that compared to Cersei’s and even Sanaa’s chapters, it shows how women appeared at the mercy of men in these medieval settings, but there was ways around it. Especially for those women who were intelligent and knew how to manipulate. But with Catelyn it seems like somehow this doesn’t apply to her, as she garners respect and almost a Mary Sue type of stature in which people defer to her wants and actions. 
 

Would it not have been better to give Robb a POV so that way we could see much of what was going on at the camp, but not HAVE to make Catelyn be in some weird narrative positions simply because she was the POV? 
Renlys camp and death could have been shown by Brienne. 
 

Riverrrun could have been Robb, or even Jaime. 

Edited by OberynBlackfyre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Would it not have been better to give Robb a POV so that way we could see much of what was going on at the camp, but not HAVE to make Catelyn be in some weird narrative positions simply because she was the POV? 
Renlys camp and death could have been shown by Brienne. 
 

Riverrrun could have been Robb, or even Jaime. 

 Nope. I love that we get the pov of a mother, who isn't crazy like Cersei. Even though she is very different from me I could very well relate to her. IMO she is a very realistic character given the cultural background of her time. She didn't feel like a Mary Sue at all for me. Robb was really only ever a secondary character to step in for Ned, to move the plot along until his bastard, cripple and broken things siblings (the underdogs of the family) would be ready "to take over" (still not quite ready yet though). While GRRM is not done with Cat's arc, LS will have a significant function in the overall story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Then the coup de gras is when she FREES Jaime Lannister but still somehow remains a free woman for all intent and purposes.  She does not even get any sense of punishment, which at the very least you would think that Robb would send her to Seagard right away after returning since she obviously cannot be trusted.

It's "coup the grâce." Gras means "fat, fatty, grease"

About this part of your post, whatever closeness she and Robb had, whatever trust that existed between them seems to have been broken. Robb was making his plans and his decisions without her input and that was a pretty big change from early on. And I don't think he could have sent her to Seagard right away because of the wedding. Her absence may have been perceived as a slight.

More than that, though, Catelyn was a done woman. She died believing her children were either dead (Robb, Rickon, Bran, Arya) or lost to her (Sansa). That's a pretty terrible punishment for any mother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

with Catelyn Stark I believe that her story is one of narratives that break the “realism” of the story. While I think it’s a good themed narrative of grief, anxiety, and then somewhat madness, I think that the decisions made for her character don’t gel with the world as a whole. 

Hard disagree, there a few charactersas "realists" as Cat.

 

1 hour ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Her being sent to Renly is I think EXTREMELY strange. Rightly so, it is remarked upon that it seems Robb is “hiding behind his mothers skirt”.  Catelyn is not known to have any skill as a diplomat, and is in a state of fried due to Neds death and her daughters imprisonment. 

Some of Renly’s lords bristled at that, but the king only laughed. “Well said, my lady. There will be time enough for graces when these wars are done. Tell me, when does your son mean to march against Harrenhal?” Until she knew whether this king was friend or foe, Catelyn was not about to reveal the least part of Robb’s dispositions. “I do not sit on my son’s war councils, my lord.” “So long as he leaves a few Lannisters for me, I’ll not complain. What has he done with the Kingslayer?” “Jaime Lannister is held prisoner at Riverrun.” “Still alive?” Lord Mathis Rowan seemed dismayed. Bemused, Renly said, “It would seem the direwolf is gentler than the lion.” “Gentler than the Lannisters,” murmured Lady Oakheart with a bitter smile, “is drier than the sea.” “I call it weak.” Lord Randyll Tarly had a short, bristly grey beard and a reputation for blunt speech. “No disrespect to you, Lady Stark, but it would have been more seemly had Lord Robb come to pay homage to the king himself, “Gentler than the Lannisters,” murmured Lady Oakheart with a bitter smile, “is drier than the sea.” “I call it weak.” Lord Randyll Tarly had a short, bristly grey beard and a reputation for blunt speech. “No disrespect to you, Lady Stark, but it would have been more seemly had Lord Robb come to pay homage to the king himself, rather than hiding behind his mother’s skirts.” “ King Robb is warring, my lord,” Catelyn replied with icy courtesy, “not playing at tourney.” Renly grinned. “Go softly, Lord Randyll, I fear you’re overmatched.”

 

There is nothing strange in Cat going as en envoy, she already treated with Frey and you don't need a degree of diplomacy to treat with medieval lords, you need strenght, charm and wit. Cat has all that. Only Tarly is stupid enough to make that remark and he's quickly burnns him. Cat is perfectly suited for the task.

 

 

1 hour ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

And as she comes back to Riverrun, she talks about having respect for the people around her, yet she commonly disregards or bulls over peoples commands and basically forces her will upon people. Not only that, but even the North which she says to “love” she basically abandons simply to comfort her dying father which is sweet, but does NOTHING to further the war effort or to help support her existing family. 

I don't really know how those statements are supposed to be the contrary to each other, i really don't.

Hmmm, her father is dying, the North can wait a little and after that, she is unable to get back. 

 

 

Quote

Then the coup de gras is when she FREES Jaime Lannister but still somehow remains a free woman for all intent and purposes.  She does not even get any sense of punishment, which at the very least you would think that Robb would send her to Seagard right away after returning since she obviously cannot be trusted.  

It's Robb's calls to punish her, he decide not to kill her and send her to Seagard. Don't need to talk about the red wedding  and how that changed everyone's plans.

 

 

Quote

Overall I think what sucks is that compared to Cersei’s and even Sanaa’s chapters, it shows how women appeared at the mercy of men in these medieval settings, but there was ways around it. Especially for those women who were intelligent and knew how to manipulate. But with Catelyn it seems like somehow this doesn’t apply to her, as she garners respect and almost a Mary Sue type of stature in which people defer to her wants and actions

You don't really know what Mary Sue is, Cat is the opposite. Cat is not at the mercy of men, in general, she's at her son's. There la no reason to compare her to Sansa or Cersei when their situations are completely different.

 

 

Quote

Would it not have been better to give Robb a POV so that way we could see much of what was going on at the camp, but not HAVE to make Catelyn be in some weird narrative positions simply because she was the POV? 
Renlys camp and death could have been shown by Brienne. 
 

Riverrrun could have been Robb, or even Jaime. 

No, Cat's povs are refreshing. We saw Robb close enough anyway. 

Edited by frenin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Catelyn is prone to the same self-defense mechanism as many of the folks in Westeros.  She was brought up to think herself superior by birth.  Family pride, honor, and what have you.  Her mind has to justify her actions in those terms even when she does something that doesn't fit.  The trouble with honor and morals is at some point you will face a conflict.  Do the right thing or do what you feel like.  Catelyn felt for her daughters and disobeyed Robb.  She felt for Bran and you know, screw the thousands of lives it will mess up, she's going to punish his attacker.  Robb Stark is no better.  He preferred Jeyne Westerling over the unknown Frey who may not be pretty.  He had to make that dishonorable decision fit his sense of self, which is that of an honorable son of a great house, and lie to himself saying he did it for honor.  Deep inside, if he has any decency, he would realize that's just an excuse.  How one sees oneself is not necessarily the reality.  But he had to make the reality (his heinous oath breaking) jive with his sense of self.  The Starks and many others stink of hubris.  Catelyn and Robb were only acting like the clan.  The only perhaps somewhat honest adult Stark is Jon Snow.  He knows what oath breaking means, he knows it's taboo, he knows it's very bad, he knows it will hurt many people, but he will knowingly break them in order to help the people he loves and usually (not all the time, he lies to himself too) not deceive himself too much.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, 3 posts in and it’s already a Jon hate thread. :rolleyes:

To the OP, I disagree overall. I think Cat’s chapters are beautifully written, loaded w/ important information, and pretty heartbreaking at times. And this from someone who wasn’t necessarily a huge Catelyn fan, although some dumb videos on YT about how she’s the worst person in the world kinda turned me into a fan of hers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

, although some dumb videos on YT about how she’s the worst person in the world kinda turned me into a fan of hers. 

I don't think those videos are dumb, i think they are comedy gold material.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoyed Catelyn's chapters. The POV of the hero is expected. Robb's POV would've been stale, but Catelyn's was a breath of fresh air. Where else do you get the perspective of things from the hero's mother?

I wasn't a fan of how Catelyn treated Jon Snow at all, her anger was understandable but seemed misdirected. Ned should've been the target of it, but taking it out on an innocent boy reeks of moral cowardice. Which presents an interesting dynamic when coupled with how fiercely she protected her other children.

Robb's choice to seen Catelyn to negotiate with Renly made sense on a couple of levels. One, she's someone he can trust absolutely to represent his interests. Two, he's a teenage boy in a position of authority. Let's be real, anyone would want to get their mother away from him in that position. 

Edited by Lord Lannister

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Overall I think what sucks is that compared to Cersei’s and even Sanaa’s chapters, it shows how women appeared at the mercy of men in these medieval settings, but there was ways around it. Especially for those women who were intelligent and knew how to manipulate. But with Catelyn it seems like somehow this doesn’t apply to her, as she garners respect and almost a Mary Sue type of stature in which people defer to her wants and actions. 
 

Would it not have been better to give Robb a POV so that way we could see much of what was going on at the camp, but not HAVE to make Catelyn be in some weird narrative positions simply because she was the POV? 

I've been listening to the audiobook of AFfC again, and have really been struck by the intended parallels between Lady Stoneheart and Cersei (unhinged mothers of dead kings) but also among the female POVs for Arianne and Brienne as well as the two queen mothers. There are repeated references to breastfeeding, "seed," whore-queens, lying maidens, rejected suitors, unwanted roses (Thoros repeats that Catelyn "rose" after death), descent from a tower (or into a dungeon or hollow hill), the forging of a new eye (this seems to be a GRRM archetype and probably needs its own thread) as well as the recurring "Maggie the Frog" symbolism (Lady Stoneheart "croaks" when she orders the death of Brienne, Pod and Ser Hyle but I think Margaery is also a Maggie-parallel which further enriches and complicates the intricately-woven women's chapters in Feast).

As others have pointed out, Catelyn was raised for many years to be Hoster's heir until her surprise baby brother came along and she was swept into a marriage alliance instead of inheriting Riverrun. I don't see people deferring to her wants and actions - she barely survives the knife attack by the catspaw and she loses (she believes) three or four children to murder and the chaos of war. Her sister deceives her about Jon Arryn's death and insists on putting Tyrion on trial while Catelyn had made a different plan. She hopes to broker a peace treaty with Renly on Robb's behalf and also hopes to make peace between Renly and Stannis but fails at both. Even her sworn sword, Brienne, seems to betray her (Lady Stoneheart believes) by allying with Jaime Lannister instead of advancing Catelyn's interests. I see a very bitterly disappointing series of outcomes for this POV in spite of her efforts to use her intelligence, understanding of fealty, strategic risks (letting Jaime go) and sense of honor (expectations about guest right, for instance) to achieve the outcomes she desires.

Many other threads have pointed out that there are no POVs for kings so it would strike me as very strange if Robb had been given a POV.

I would compare Cersei's power over Joffrey to Catelyn's relationship with Robb. Catelyn does not strike us as ambitious and manipulative of her young son in the same way Cersei appears to lust for power (indeed, Catelyn tries to argue for peace after the Whispering Wood but she is overruled). But she has a sense of the "rightful" place for House Stark and House Tully, and she eventually wants revenge for the violence inflicted on her family. She accepts Brienne's unprecedented promise to fight for her as a sworn sword. The deal she cuts with Walder Frey is not something she worked out with Robb ahead of time, obviously. She knew what kinds of terms would be worthwhile and acceptable to advance Robb's immediate military interests as well as his ongoing control of the north as the newly-crowned king. This was her intelligence and shrewdness at work, as well as her ability to read the twisted ambitions of Walder Frey.

I don't think GRRM had to contort the story to put Catelyn in the situations where she provided the POV. I think her role was a logical one that, as I say, is parallel to other POVs from key women in the series.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I do think that a Robb POV would been very enlightening and very welcome in A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords (mainly A Clash of Kings), I do think Catelyn POV chapters are often the most consistently best written, most consistently informative chapters in the entire series.

If you remember from the text, Catelyn ACTUALLY did not want to be sent south to Renly and Stannis as an ambassador. She wanted to go home to Winterfell to be with Bran and Rickon. Robb overruled her and that's why she stayed. And in GRRM's first couple of drafts, Catelyn actually does go back to Winterfell (with Arya in tow, apparently) and reunites with Bran only for her to die beyond the Wall and become a wight.

Robb technically has to give his mother leave. Catelyn isn't going to disrespect or embarrass Robb unnecessarily by just taking off. That's a big part of Robert Baratheon and the Small Council's problem with Lysa Arryn: she just left without notice or consent. It was considered rude, dishonorable and sacrilegious. Besides, Robb (although he is technically still a minor) is both head of House Stark and her king.

 

Honestly, the way people feel about Catelyn Stark blows my mind. It seems to be that female characters get the worst kind of treatment. Jaime, Tywin and Tyrion ALL get away with murder literally but no one rags on them as much as people like to rag on Catelyn or Sansa.

Edited by BlackLightning

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/20/2020 at 6:27 AM, BlackLightning said:

While I do think that a Robb POV would been very enlightening and very welcome in A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords (mainly A Clash of Kings), I do think Catelyn POV chapters are often the most consistently best written, most consistently informative chapters in the entire series.

If you remember from the text, Catelyn ACTUALLY did not want to be sent south to Renly and Stannis as an ambassador. She wanted to go home to Winterfell to be with Bran and Rickon. Robb overruled her and that's why she stayed. And in GRRM's first couple of drafts, Catelyn actually does go back to Winterfell (with Arya in tow, apparently) and reunites with Bran only for her to die beyond the Wall and become a wight.

Robb technically has to give his mother leave. Catelyn isn't going to disrespect or embarrass Robb unnecessarily by just taking off. That's a big part of Robert Baratheon and the Small Council's problem with Lysa Arryn: she just left without notice or consent. It was considered rude, dishonorable and sacrilegious. Besides, Robb (although he is technically still a minor) is both head of House Stark and her king.

 

Honestly, the way people feel about Catelyn Stark blows my mind. It seems to be that female characters get the worst kind of treatment. Jaime, Tywin and Tyrion ALL get away with murder literally but no one rags on them as much as people like to rag on Catelyn or Sansa.

That’s because these silly wimmin are bogging down this story of people hacking at each other with swords. I was expecting big Bob to 1v1 the Mountain and then Khal Drogo! Then I had to read about a Mother’s grief! Pah! Mothers don’t grieve, they are brood mares for warriors!

Edited by FitzChivalry Fartseer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/18/2020 at 6:39 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Wow, 3 posts in and it’s already a Jon hate thread. :rolleyes:

To the OP, I disagree overall. I think Cat’s chapters are beautifully written, loaded w/ important information, and pretty heartbreaking at times. And this from someone who wasn’t necessarily a huge Catelyn fan, although some dumb videos on YT about how she’s the worst person in the world kinda turned me into a fan of hers. 

Catelyn is one of my favourite characters, in part because the punishments she suffers are so disproportionate to her offences.  Even in death, her suffering continues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing that bothered me about Catelyn was her relationship with Jon. There is no way to sugar coat it other than to say she was a cold woman who took out her anger on a defenseless child who didn't even know his own mother (to steal a phrase from the Tv series). One can only hope that Jon, when/if he learns his real mother was Lyanna Stark, can have enough empathy for the dead Catelyn and how that terrible secret nearly destroyed his uncle Ned and his "foster-mother's" marriage.

Other than that, she was probably the most competent person to give Robb advice, certainly far better than the Greatjon Umber or Rickard Karstark. She certainly stumbled from time to time, like damn near any human being. As the saying goes, the victor in battle is the one that makes the fewest mistakes. She was right to think Robb crowning himself was stupid and that it reduced the chance of peace. With Ned already dead, she was correct they should have taken the losses and turned back towards The North and quit the field. As it is, Robb, not Catelyn, doomed The North to the Boltons (though, Catelyn does share part of the blame for tossing the stone that caused the avalanche when she took Tyrion Lannister hostage). 

Now, I think her biggest screw ups were in not getting Robb married immediately instead of delaying the wedding. Wars are a chancy thing and they could have waited a few days to permanently secure the alliance with the Freys, thus reducing by a wide margin the chance of The Red Wedding (Robb could still have messed up and slept with Jeyne Westerling....but that might have been forgivable by that horny old goat Walder Frey had his granddaughter still been a Stark).

And, the other major mistake, of course, was freeing Jamie Lannister to try and secure the release of Sansa and Arya. But, in that regard, I have sympathy for Catelyn as it was certainly within her nature to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Her power (and near immunity) is granted her tacitly by Ned and then Robb's regard. If Ned and Robb held no regard for her then no-one else would either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think people, as they tend to on these boards, took this as a very different way than what was intended. 
 

This isn’t saying Catelyn is bad, but more looking at the negative aspects she had on the story and comparing her to other female driven characters. I personally think the female characters are much more interesting and have some of the best parts in the narrative. I’m a hardcore Arya fan, and even came around to being a Sansa fan after a lot of rereads. 
 

But I do think if you compare say Cersei and Catelyn you get a very very different view in how women are treated. And is that because Robb actually loved her and was incompetent, or because Catelyn had to fit certain roles? 
For instance why was Catelyn not offered as a marriage pact? She didn’t bring anything to the table per sei but from a nobility aspect she was part of the Royal Family of the North so politically she could have been seen as a good marriage to tie a House closer to the King. 
 

Ned died around the same time as Robert, yet one of the first things Tywin does is say that she needs to marry again. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/19/2020 at 10:27 PM, BlackLightning said:

While I do think that a Robb POV would been very enlightening and very welcome in A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords (mainly A Clash of Kings), I do think Catelyn POV chapters are often the most consistently best written, most consistently informative chapters in the entire series.

If you remember from the text, Catelyn ACTUALLY did not want to be sent south to Renly and Stannis as an ambassador. She wanted to go home to Winterfell to be with Bran and Rickon. Robb overruled her and that's why she stayed. And in GRRM's first couple of drafts, Catelyn actually does go back to Winterfell (with Arya in tow, apparently) and reunites with Bran only for her to die beyond the Wall and become a wight.

Robb technically has to give his mother leave. Catelyn isn't going to disrespect or embarrass Robb unnecessarily by just taking off. That's a big part of Robert Baratheon and the Small Council's problem with Lysa Arryn: she just left without notice or consent. It was considered rude, dishonorable and sacrilegious. Besides, Robb (although he is technically still a minor) is both head of House Stark and her king.

 

Honestly, the way people feel about Catelyn Stark blows my mind. It seems to be that female characters get the worst kind of treatment. Jaime, Tywin and Tyrion ALL get away with murder literally but no one rags on them as much as people like to rag on Catelyn or Sansa.

I do agree that the women get waaay too much crap. But this wasn’t supposed to flame Catelyn. This was comparing what her actions could have done negatively and why in comparison to Cersei, certain things didn’t apply. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/25/2020 at 5:43 PM, OberynBlackfyre said:

I do agree that the women get waaay too much crap. But this wasn’t supposed to flame Catelyn. This was comparing what her actions could have done negatively and why in comparison to Cersei, certain things didn’t apply. 
 

Oh.

Well then, it's simple. Cersei is a bad person; Catelyn is a good person. There's your difference.

Point of reference? Let's look at the way they treat baseborn children in general and Jon Snow in particular. When Robert Baratheon tried to bring Mya Stone to King's Landing, Cersei threatened to have her killed and would've followed through with it. Catelyn did no such thing; the worst thing she ever did was tell Jon that she wished it was Jon who fell instead of Bran. Cersei had sold the Casterly Rock maid into slavery and had her babies by Robert killed. When Cersei hears that Jon becomes the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, she silently curses Catelyn Stark for not killing him when he was young as she would've done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/25/2020 at 5:42 PM, OberynBlackfyre said:

I think people, as they tend to on these boards, took this as a very different way than what was intended. 
 

This isn’t saying Catelyn is bad, but more looking at the negative aspects she had on the story and comparing her to other female driven characters. I personally think the female characters are much more interesting and have some of the best parts in the narrative. I’m a hardcore Arya fan, and even came around to being a Sansa fan after a lot of rereads. 
 

But I do think if you compare say Cersei and Catelyn you get a very very different view in how women are treated. And is that because Robb actually loved her and was incompetent, or because Catelyn had to fit certain roles? 
For instance why was Catelyn not offered as a marriage pact? She didn’t bring anything to the table per sei but from a nobility aspect she was part of the Royal Family of the North so politically she could have been seen as a good marriage to tie a House closer to the King. 
 

Ned died around the same time as Robert, yet one of the first things Tywin does is say that she needs to marry again. 

Well, the problem with Robb is that, while he is a military genius, he fails to realize that wars are not always won with swords. Catelyn told him that a few times and it was a huge theme in A Storm of Swords (hint: it's where the title of the book comes from)

When the Starks were treating with the Freys, Catelyn was still married at the time and Ned was still alive. So, she could not offer herself in marriage. We know that she would. Towards the end of it, the Lord of Seagard seemed very interested in and taken with Catelyn.

And to be fair, Robb should've offered Sansa's hand in marriage to the Tyrells or the Martells as well. Hell, if Robb had offered Sansa to Theon, then Theon probably would've never betrayed Robb. It's not just Catelyn. If Robb had arranged marriages for Catelyn and Sansa both, their situation would've become very different. They might've won the Reach and Dorne to their side. Robb also didn't work particularly hard to find Arya either. I specifically remember Robb beating himself up about it in that one Catelyn chapter while they were at Oldstones.

Tywin is a lot more experienced than Robb. So he knows that diplomacy, marriage and other deals can win or even prevent wars. That's why he "commanded" Cersei to marry again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 1/18/2020 at 3:38 PM, OberynBlackfyre said:

Her being sent to Renly is I think EXTREMELY strange. Rightly so, it is remarked upon that it seems Robb is “hiding behind his mothers skirt”.  Catelyn is not known to have any skill as a diplomat, and is in a state of fried due to Neds death and her daughters imprisonment. 

Catelyn was a worthy diplomat but she was caught between a pair of brothers who had their blinkers on. The Baratheons only had eyes for each other. Trapped between a pair of Stags... it's no place for fish. Rob himself could not of dissuaded them. Both men were offering basically the same thing and I have to say, I liked their terms. Renly was very fair. Both Baratheons had sympathy for the Ned. Rob needed to set aside his crown. And this was the stumbling block.  

On 1/18/2020 at 3:38 PM, OberynBlackfyre said:

And as she comes back to Riverrun, she talks about having respect for the people around her, yet she commonly disregards or bulls over peoples commands and basically forces her will upon people. Not only that, but even the North which she says to “love” she basically abandons simply to comfort her dying father which is sweet, but does NOTHING to further the war effort or to help support her existing family. 
 

She is the warden's daughter. And the warden himself is severely ill. Catelyn is on home turf and has a huge amount of authority. The stunt she pulls at the Crossroads inn show's how much pull a Tully has in the RL. Imagine being one of those men, and you're being asked to take Tywin's son captive.  How loyal would you need to be to do something so utterly stupid?
I think the picture we get of Cat is someone who learned to love Ned and the North. But it isn't her home. RR is her true home. She is still very much a Tully. And it's not as if she can just shrug it off.
As far as she's concerned, Bran and Rickon are safe at WF. Safe behind it's walls with a garrison to defend them. Not to mention the Direwolves that stalk around after them. Her existing family is in peril: Sansa, Arya, Edmure and her father and uncle are the ones in peril. The family members who are SOUTH of the Neck. She nor the reader could anticipate Theon's actions. She only looks negligent in hindsight imo.

 

On 1/18/2020 at 3:38 PM, OberynBlackfyre said:

Then the coup de gras is when she FREES Jaime Lannister but still somehow remains a free woman for all intent and purposes.  She does not even get any sense of punishment, which at the very least you would think that Robb would send her to Seagard right away after returning since she obviously cannot be trusted.  

Catelyn releasing Jaime on a promise sets my blood to boiling. But I learned to forgive. She wanted her daughters returned alive. If you can't give that to a grieving mother then you must have ice in your veins. I would of liked to seen her put into a cell. But only to shock her. And it would of been purely for my own sense of justice. And if you think about it, that's sort of why Westeros is a complete mess, aye? Grief makes people do all kinds of crazy things. But hating a person for grieving is an absolute waste of time. They're already suffering so adding to it accomplishes nothing. As for the betrayal aspect, it's kind of the same for Stannis and Davos. Davos outright defies Stannis. Davos attempts to assassinate his King's new errrrm, advisor? But despite this, Stannis knows Davos to be a good man and true. Loyal to his bones. And so, Davos is shown mercy. A good leader knows when to be merciful. Sparing Edric storm was a masterstroke by Davos and you'd have to be insane not to see it. If Stannis burned a child then he'd risk suffering greater enmity than the Lannisters for their twincest. These are important comparisons imo.

 

On 1/18/2020 at 3:38 PM, OberynBlackfyre said:

Overall I think what sucks is that compared to Cersei’s and even Sanaa’s chapters, it shows how women appeared at the mercy of men in these medieval settings, but there was ways around it. Especially for those women who were intelligent and knew how to manipulate. But with Catelyn it seems like somehow this doesn’t apply to her, as she garners respect and almost a Mary Sue type of stature in which people defer to her wants and actions. 
 

 I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying Catelyn needed to change tact? As I said above, she's the warden's daughter. She doesn't need to sweeten her words. She has a level of authority in the RL where by the vassals of RR and house Tully are obliged to obey. And she's loved and respected by at least a few. Look at how the northmen fear for (f)Arya and would rather die than have her repeatedly raped. This (f)Arya doesn't need to ask for men to fight for her. She doesn't need to manipulate anybody. Cersei needs to manipulate people because she's an awful person and men only want to screw her. That's her only weapon. And that's why she's doomed. I enjoy reading about her but for all the wrong reasons. Sansa must of spotted this. She even thinks to herself how she will make people love her. She might of been a way off from where she is in aFfC, but she was onto something. Catelyn was loved and respected. And she sort of knew it. So she could give commands and yield only to her brother and son. And she didn't need to manipulate either of them. Nor could she.

 

On 1/18/2020 at 3:38 PM, OberynBlackfyre said:

Would it not have been better to give Robb a POV so that way we could see much of what was going on at the camp, but not HAVE to make Catelyn be in some weird narrative positions simply because she was the POV?

Iirc, George has stated that he would of liked a Rob POV. The snag for me is that I don't believe we need one. The best thing about a POV is having an insight into the characters inner monologue. It's how we come to understand their motivation. Rob's motivations are so painfully clear that even Tywin can anticipate him. Outside of owning a direwolf that can be warged, he's not all that cryptic. I feel like George would of been treading water trying to write his POV.

 

On 1/18/2020 at 3:38 PM, OberynBlackfyre said:

Riverrrun could have been Robb, or even Jaime. 

Who better to give us eyes inside those walls than the woman who grew up there. Jaime doesn't have the foggiest clue what life inside of RR was like. He would of given us zero exposition. As for Rob, see above. Just my opinion though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×