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Qhorin Halfhand was Ser Arthur Dayne - Revisited.


three-eyed monkey

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I won't dig too deeply into this, but just note that this theory would work well together with the one that has Ashara being married to Howland and still alive in the Neck. 

I like the idea of Howland having married Ashara, and thus being kin to Arthur, and by extension stopping Arthur from killing Ned by acting as a human shield. Arthur would then have had to forsake his oath to the king in order to avoid becoming a kinslayer, one of the major social taboos of Westeros. 

I think this fits well into what we know about Ned as a character, and explains why Ned thinks so highly of Arthur. Being a knight is, as noted elsewhere in this thread, more about character and doing what is right despite the cost to your own person, than it is about superficial chivalry. 

Breaking his oath to the king would be a perfect reason for Arthur to take the black, and his silence in the matter of Jon's parentage would only heighten Neds esteem for the man and his actions. 

As a bonus, having a terrified Howland put his life on the line by facing the best swordsman in the realm armed only with a plea of mercy, would be the very definition of bravery as laid out by Ned in Bran 1.

I won't get into any discussion whether this theory, or that theory is "real". It's fun speculation, it may be true, future books may prove its right or wrong or leave it unanswered, doesn't matter one bit. 

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3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

No it's not, but fair enough if English is not your first language, because it's easy to misinterpret even if English was your first language. It is written to be misleading.

The sentence I'm talking about is the one that says - they were seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away. They is the subject of the first clause. The verb is, to be. They were in the act of being seven. They were seven. Against is a preposition that shows the relationship between the seven and the three. They are in opposition, not together, so they remain seven, not ten. They are the northmen, which makes perfect sense as it is from Ned's point of view and he was one of them. Only two northmen survived.

This is untrue. There is something to reveal about Arthur's death. We don't know who killed him or how he was killed. This information has so far been withheld by GRRM and will be revealed when we revisit the Tower of Joy later in the series. Perhaps it will be confirmation of what we've been told, as you suggest, but I think it is far more likely that it will be a proper reveal as that would better justify withholding the information in the first place. A reveal means something other than what we've been told.

Qhorin heard a brother tell the story. That does not mean he was in the Night's Watch when he heard it. Wandering crows, like Yoren, travel the realm in search of recruits. If Qhorin said when he was no older than Jon a brother showed him the falls, then I would accept that the line sinks the theory, but it doesn't say that. How easy it would have been for GRRM to write that instead, but he didn't. Of all the ways Qhorin could have known about the falls, all we get is another ambiguous line that is meant to mislead.

We see the same level eof ambiguity around Qhorin's past when it says, So far as Jon knew, Qhorin had spent his whole life in the watch.

Even if I'm not convinced, I concur those sentences are suggestive and leading to one conclusion (Arthur is dead), rather than fully conclusive of it. However, this is not unusual for George. Even when he ends stories, the ending is open to interpretation, speculation and non-conclusive. He just doesn't like to write that explicitly. So, that he didn't for Qhorin, or Arthur is not actual evidence. It just lets the door open for the thoughful reader to stop and think, "Hey, wait a minute." And certainly in Arthur's case in a ToJ scene full of Arthurian motifs, it's not so surprising that he'd incorporate some ambiguity into his death, after his namesake.

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14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Even if I'm not convinced, I concur those sentences are suggestive and leading to one conclusion (Arthur is dead), rather than fully conclusive of it.

Thank you. That is simply my point. We've been led in one direction but there is nothing conclusive. That is the same for every major mystery in the book. We're led to believe Jon is Ned's bastard but there is nothing conclusive and we all know why that is. I would say the same for Ramsay writing the Pink Letter, naturally.

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

However, this is not unusual for George. Even when he ends stories, the ending is open to interpretation, speculation and non-conclusive. He just doesn't like to write that explicitly.

I agree that there will always be room for interpretation around some things but the main theme will not be one of them. You said you would play thematic devil's advocate with me so let me just ask you this.

IF it was shockingly revealed by Howland Reed, that Arthur survived and took the black, sworn to keep Jon's secret, and we all agreed that he must have been Qhorin Halfhand, as there is really no other candidate, THEN could you appreciate the magnificent motif GRRM constructed to support his main theme, as I have outlined? Or do people think I'm just spouting literary bs?

36 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

So, that he didn't for Qhorin, or Arthur is not actual evidence. It just lets the door open for the thoughful reader to stop and think, "Hey, wait a minute." And certainly in Arthur's case in a ToJ scene full of Arthurian motifs, it's not so surprising that he'd incorporate some ambiguity into his death, after his namesake.

There is ambiguity now, but there is a reveal yet to come. We will find out how he died and who killed him when we revisit the ToJ.

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20 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

IF it was shockingly revealed by Howland Reed, that Arthur survived and took the black, sworn to keep Jon's secret, and we all agreed that he must have been Qhorin Halfhand, as there is really no other candidate, THEN could you appreciate the magnificent motif GRRM constructed to support his main theme, as I have outlined? Or do people think I'm just spouting literary bs?

Well I never contested the theme in the first place. I do agree with others though, a theme can be valid with Arthur =/= Qhorin, as well as Arthur == Qhorin.

Oh, and I'm convinced that the PL was not written by Ramsay. That's completely a red herring imo, and not a subtle one either.

But when I mentioned the ambiguity with which George tends to write, I think for example of Joffrey as the one who hired the catspaw. The solution to the original mystery was given, but in puzzle pieces and from POVs formulating their conclusions, without ever having the chance to confirm it. Strictly speaking, the answer remains an in-world assumption from characters who never truly verified it and the vague boast of a teen boy. But also endings of his short stories, for example This Tower of Ashes

Spoiler

there's a vague hint that the POV is experiencing a hallucination induced by spider venom that he's safe in some tower, watching the stars and how the potential disaster ended well (without the and he lived happily ever after). But upon close inspection (and I realized it only upon 2nd reread) the hint reveals that it did all end in disaster, that he's trapped in a spider net, nibbled by carnivorous spiders, while being kept alive and without fighting back because of the spider venom. Whenever the spider comes to take a nibble out of him, he believes it's his cat (except his red tabby with fluffy tail turned into a white eight legged nibbler)

 

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On 1/24/2020 at 12:43 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

Our attention is drawn by his sword, Dawn, and the title, Sword of the Morning, which has a constellation named after it.

I agree w/ a lot of what you said in the post I’m quoting a snippet of here, but I will have to wait until Monday to reply properly. 

I wanted to say something about the quoted bit, though...

IMO it is possible it’s the other way about. It’s possible that the Daynes named their unique sword, forged from “the heart of a fallen star”, a star that fell from the heavens, after the constellation. 

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Well I never contested the theme in the first place. I do agree with others though, a theme can be valid with Arthur =/= Qhorin, as well as Arthur == Qhorin.

I'm not talking about a theme, I'm talking about the theme. The main theme, as reflected in the book titles' migration from A Game of Thrones to A Dream of Spring. The rejection of the divisive game of thrones in favor of unity in the face of the existential crisis brought by the Others. The rejection of the lie of division in favor of the truth of unity. United we stand, divided we fall. That's the thematic principle I mean.

Now if we take Arthur as the tragic kingsguard knight, he remains a symbol of the game of thrones, a tragic figure who died for the lie. Likewise, if Qhorin is just Qhorin then he remains a brother of the Watch and a symbol of the song of ice and fire aspect of the story.

However if Arthur is Qhorin, he follows the same migration as the book titles, moving away from the lie and towards the truth and as such becomes the embodiment of the main theme. Arthur's white cloak and Qhorin's black cloak become interlocked and form a more rounded yin yang symbol that is reflective of the whole story and main theme.

In short, as individuals they reflect a theme, but as one, they reflect the theme.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Oh, and I'm convinced that the PL was not written by Ramsay. That's completely a red herring imo, and not a subtle one either.

Testify!

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But when I mentioned the ambiguity with which George tends to write, I think for example of Joffrey as the one who hired the catspaw. The solution to the original mystery was given, but in puzzle pieces and from POVs formulating their conclusions, without ever having the chance to confirm it. Strictly speaking, the answer remains an in-world assumption from characters who never truly verified it and the vague boast of a teen boy.

Small fish mysteries like that, sure, but the main mysteries will be solved. We will be clear who Jon's parents are, for example, and we will be clear on the main theme of the story. If there is any debate about the theme then we need only find the literary devices GRRM used to support and explain the main themes and let them guide us.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree w/ a lot of what you said in the post I’m quoting a snippet of here, but I will have to wait until Monday to reply properly. 

Thank you.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

IMO it is possible it’s the other way about. It’s possible that the Daynes named their unique sword, forged from “the heart of a fallen star”, a star that fell from the heavens, after the constellation. 

This may be true. I hope we find out some more but regardless of the specific details, my point is that GRRM is drawing our attention to Arthur with the sword and the title and the constellation. He's literally written it in the stars. The author is telling us to watch Arthur, because Arthur's journey will explain the whole story and it's theme in very simple terms before the series ends. That is the very reason he was created in the first place, to explain the main theme, which in turn explains why he has little impact on the plot.

We can also see Jon's own journey reflected in Arthur's journey. Jon began as heir to the throne, connected to the game of thrones, but Ned sent him to the Wall, same as he sent Arthur before him, and Jon began to move away from the lie of division and towards the truth of unity. It will probably end the same way for Jon too, self sacrifice for the greater good. As I said, they both have grey eyes because they are linked thematically. The eyes are said to be the windows to the soul and the theme is said to be the soul of the story.

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9 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I'm not talking about a theme, I'm talking about the theme.

Hmm, THE theme for me is "justice". It's actually what Bran's first chapter starts with. We readers see a probable responsible and just lord commiting an injustice to Gared, knowing what he was running from. War and the game of thrones is just one of those vehicles where injustice is rampant. Even when united and peaceful, true justice is always out of our reach, because we cannot know the truth, not as long as judges and juries do not have the magic to look into the past to see what actually happened. And most of us would not want someone to have the power to look into our past. So, the game-of-thrones-versus-unity theme is actually the secondary theme to me.

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5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Hmm, THE theme for me is "justice": first chapter with Bran already starts with that: we readers see a probable responsible and just lord commiting an injustice to Gared, knowing what he was running from. War and the game of thrones is just one of those vehicles where injustice is rampant. Even when united and peaceful, true justice is always out of our reach, because we cannot know the truth, not as long as judges and juries do not have the magic to look into the past to see what actually happened. 

I agree, there is a strong theme around Justice, and other strong themes around Identity, Power, Duty, etc. We could debate theme, many of us would have a different opinion on the matter, and there is nothing wrong with that. All those messages and more are contained in the novels and there is a valid argument for each of them. There is really no right or wrong answer. If one of the messages resonates more powerfully with you, then the author is not going to complain, but what the author will do is build their own opinion on the matter into the series.

For example, there are a lot of major themes in Pride and Prejudice but Jane Austen chose her title to point to the main conflict from which those themes arise. GRRM has done the same thing. He is using the novel titles and the title of the series to point to the main conflict of the series from which the main theme emerges. It's a journey away from the game of thrones and towards the song of ice and fire.

Now let's take the theme around Justice. The Iron Throne is supposedly a symbol of justice. We hear about the king's justice a lot, but in fact it is a lie. The game of thrones has little to do with justice. It is unjust, corrupt and brutal. It is where lone wolves focused on their own power, divide the pack to get what they want. The lords play their game of thrones, the player wins or dies, but the smallfolk always lose. That's why the message remains the same, give up the lie and move away from the unjust game of thrones.

Arthur and the kingsguard are symbols of the game of thrones. Qhorin and the Night's Watch are symbols of the song of ice and fire. However, if we put them together as one person then they are transformed into a symbol that represents that journey away from the divisive and unjust game of thrones towards the unifying song of ice and fire, the same journey that is represented in the titles of the books. And that is the purpose of Arthur Dayne being Qhorin Halfhand. He represents the journey from the lie to the truth that all characters must ultimately face if they are to survive, or at least give their lives for the truth and greater good rather than the lie.

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Arthur's death and Qhorin's past are left very vague. We are certain the ToJ will be revisited and there will be a reveal, so we are likely to find out what did happen Arthur. If you believe Arthur died at the ToJ and Qhorin spent his whole life in the Watch, then so be it.

The reason I spent the last few pages of this thread discussing theme is because theme is important to a story. It's as important as plot and character. The question was asked, what is the purpose of Arthur being Qhorin when it does nothing for the plot? I want to demonstrate that serving the plot is not the only function in literature. There are plot devices but there are also thematic devises. So I maintain that Arthur being Qhorin does have a purpose, and I reject any notion that theme is not important to a novelist. It may not be as concrete as plot and character, but it is always there. It's the point of the story.

I have demonstrated why I believe it has a purpose, using nothing but the basic literary analysis. It's the type of stuff they taught you in school when you studied a modern novel, a classic novel, or even a play by Shakespeare. I'm not proposing anything unusual when I talk about theme and its supporting motifs. You may disagree with me, as I'm sure you probably do, but you cannot honestly say that there is no purpose to the theory when I'm proposing a purpose that makes absolute literary sense.

Take the direwolf and antler at the beginning of the series. We might disagree about what it foreshadows, but we should agree that foreshadowing is a literary technique that has a purpose. What would you say to someone who says it's just a dead direwolf whose purpose is to provide the Starks with their wolves. From a plot point of view that is true but there is more to it, regardless of whether that person appreciates symbolism and foreshadowing or not. Foreshadowing and symbolism are real and GRRM uses them, just as he uses a whole host of devices and techniques. That's what writers do.

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A question: if Arthur = Qhorin illustrates the main theme, why isn't it indicated in Qhorin chapters that he may not be just Qhorin? Plus, ever since his death, Qhorin hasn't been mentioned much, either, only the manner of his death to be held against Jon. This is not the way GRRM usually writes his mysteries - it startswith  a hint here and there, followed by a steady influx of information gradually thickening into the reveal (basically, the three-step structure his editor talked about). I fail to see such a trail for Arthur = Qhorin.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

A question: if Arthur = Qhorin illustrates the main theme, why isn't it indicated in Qhorin chapters that he may not be just Qhorin? Plus, ever since his death, Qhorin hasn't been mentioned much, either, only the manner of his death to be held against Jon. This is not the way GRRM usually writes his mysteries - it startswith  a hint here and there, followed by a steady influx of information gradually thickening into the reveal (basically, the three-step structure his editor talked about). I fail to see such a trail for Arthur = Qhorin. 

To begin with, it is indicated in Qhorin's chapters that he may not be Qhorin. The best example might be Qhorin's mention of the shy maid on her wedding night. Jon then signposts it with his own surprise at Qhorin talking about maids and weddings, but then he shrinks from pursuing the subject, just as Bran wished he had asked Ned what he meant about Arthur and Howland. There is something undisclosed here, something the characters wanted to know but did not ask. It's designed to pique the readers interest, and in both cases the answer will be directly revealed or become apparent. Plus there is a bunch of clues.

Qhorin does not need to be mentioned much. He is half of the motif but he is also Arthur Dayne. We don't need to go at this from both ends. Arthur is the recurring symbol, he is the one we are meant to watch. Once we learn the truth about Arthur, then the Qhorin part will fall into place.

Remember, the motif is not the mystery. The motif simply explains the main theme in symbolic terms. The motif is hidden, or at least obscured, because it confirms the theme and as theme is connected to plot and character, then it can guide us to see where plot and characters are going in a thematic sense. That's why theme must emerge along with plot and character progression. For example, let's say you are reading a novel about an ordinary guy's attempt to rob a big bank that foreclosed on him and it's getting to the climax of the story. Will he pull it off or get caught? If you know the theme is "banks are corrupt," then you might anticipate an ending. If you know the theme is "crime doesn't pay," then you might anticipate a different ending. The best storytelling choice is to have theme emerge as the plot and characters develop, so that they are revealed together.

The mystery is the death of Arthur Dayne. That's where the information vacuum is. That's the piece of the jigsaw that has not yet been put in place. We have been presented with story that says Ned killed Arthur, but no confirmation. Bran and Ned's conversation hinted there is more to the story. There will be reveals when the Tower of Joy is revisited. From a plot point of view the big confirmation will concern Lyanna. The reveal about Arthur will confirm the theme. That's why he was placed in that scene, so that plot and theme are revealed together.

20 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Question: When will this Qhorin is really Arthur reveal happen? 

This will happen when we revisit the Tower of Joy, most likely through Howland Reed. I'll explain why it has to happen there, even though I've already touched on it in my reply to Ygrain.

So I contend that GRRM created a masterful motif to underscore his main theme, and he plans to reveal it at the climax of the series so to confirm the main theme of the series.

Story is when characters negotiate the plot, exploring the themes, learning lessons, changing along the way and making a point in the process. Those characters that learn the lessons of the thematic principles will change for the better on a positive change arc and succeed, while those who reject the lessons will endure a negative change arc and fail. The main lesson in A Song of Ice and Fire is that division needs to be replaced by unity, because the main thematic principle is - United we stand, divided we fall. In terms of the main plot, that means abandoning the divisive game of thrones and uniting to survive the return of the Others. In terms of character progression, it means elevating the needs of the many above the wants of the individual.

These three key elements - plot, character, and theme - converge at the climax of a story. This is the pivotal scene of the series, where the mysteries are revealed. The Tower of Joy has already been set up to be the scene of the climax. We know we will revisit the tower, most likely through Howland Reed, and we will get answers to our questions about the plot, but we should remember that the climax is also the point where the main characters will accept or reject the thematic principles. It's where they admit or deny who they truly are, where they choose between the truth and the lie, where they elect to stand united or fall divided. The climax will be followed by the resolution, where we will see the outcome of the character's decisions and a potential final battle etc., but the climax is the place where the point of the story will be made. Theme is an important part of the climax.

GRRM wants his central theme to be understood, and not misinterpreted or lost among other major themes. To support his main theme he has used a number of simple motifs, such as the lone wolf and pack, but to distinguish his main theme from the other major themes he has crafted something special. He has taken two recurring symbols, the white cloak of the kingsguard and the black cloak of the Night’s Watch, Arthur Dayne and Qhorin Halfhand, neither of which, it must be said, has a significant plot function. The white-cloaked Arthur is a kingsguard, connected to the game of thrones element of the story. The black-cloaked Qhorin is a brother of the Night’s Watch, connected to the song of ice and fire element of the story. When we revisit the pivotal Tower of Joy scene at the climax of the story, and the big reveals are made, the two recurring symbols will be combined to form a master motif, which will explain the main theme in symbolic terms.

The truth about Lyanna and child is not the only reveal we are waiting for when it comes to the Tower of Joy. We also await the truth about the death of Arthur Dayne, and while the reveal about Lyanna is significant to the main plot, the reveal about Arthur is significant to the main theme, it’s the very reason he was placed in the climactic scene.

We have been presented with a tale that says Ned killed Arthur in single combat, while Ned’s own account recalls that Arthur would have killed him but for Howland Reed. So was it Ned or was it Howland who struck the mortal blow? In truth there is a third option, there was no mortal blow.

GRRM left Arthur's death vague for a reason, and so too Qhorin’s past. That lack of reliable detail on one character’s end and the other’s beginning is set-up perfectly to allow both characters to be joined into one. Arthur is the beginning of Qhorin’s story, just as Qhorin is the end of Arthur’s. His story is a journey away from the lie of the game of thrones and towards the truth of a song of ice and fire. We see the exact same journey represented in the titles of the books, which start at A Game of Thrones and progress to A Dream of Spring, a journey from division to unity.

When it is revealed that Arthur took the black, then there will be no debate as to who he became. There will not be a single shred of text that can contradict such a reveal; not the eight cairns, the two who lived to ride away, Qhorin knowing Lord Rickard, Qhorin hearing about the waterfall form a black brother when he was no older than Jon, nothing. As well as that, hints like the red tears and rubies, the shy maid on her wedding night, Dawn arriving with Qhorin, will also make sense.

When the series is analyzed from a literary point of view, it will become clear that Arthur Dayne's journey to becoming Qhorin Halfhand, a journey that is also reflected in the titles of the books, is a perfect symbolic representation of the main theme, the main plot, as well as the journey of many main characters, especially Jon as the eyes are the windows to the souls and the theme is the soul of the story.

Regardless of whether you believe this or not, I hope what I'm saying is somewhat clear. There is a lot to it so I'm trying to be brief but concise, and I know I'm failing to be brief. I think the first thing to understand here is the relationship between plot, character, and theme. This is vital to the analysis of any novel. Next is to understand what a motif is and why author's use them. It's a very standard technique. Then, recognize that the author is using characters to prompt questions that we can expect to be answered, like the shy maid and her wedding, or what Ned meant by "but for Howland Reed."

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On 1/26/2020 at 4:24 AM, sweetsunray said:

Hmm, THE theme for me is "justice".

I just wanted to add that Justice is indeed a very important topic here because the goal cannot be unity alone, a totalitarian society could be unified, there must be justice and truth as well. But all those major themes should converge into the main theme, just as the plotlines converge.

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20 hours ago, Ygrain said:

This is not the way GRRM usually writes his mysteries -

GRRM's main rule in this series, from what I can see, is that he doesn't spoon-feed the reader until the reveal. He want's the reader to work. Sometimes writers frontload a mystery, that means blurting out the correct answer close to the question and then leading away from that answer and into other possibilities through the deliberations of the characters, only to later reveal the character's initial instinct was right. I don't like that method, I feel it's not as satisfying for the reader, and I don't think GRRM is too fond of it either because he doesn't seem to use it in ASoIaF.

If any character answers a mystery in the series then it is most likely wrong, unless of course it is the reveal. For example, when Aemon works out that Dany is TPtwP, I feel certain he is wrong because it is to early for the reveal on that question. We are presented with Stannis as the first option, but later Aemon debunks that and presents the case for Dany, setting up a false dilemma, Stannis or Dany, which is something GRRM is fond of.

Now let's look at the structure of the Arthur Dayne mystery. The following quotes appear in the same order in the books.

They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

This is the first mention of Arthur in AGoT. Straight-up we are told how he was slain by Ned in single combat. It's similar to how we are straight-up told by Mel that Stannis is TPtwP. At this stage we know nothing about Arthur other than he was the deadliest of Aerys's seven, and he had an eye-catching title, the Sword of the Morning, but we have no reason to suspect the tale is not true.

However, there is a hint that suggests there may be more to the tale as Ned shuts Catelyn down when she asked him. Catelyn's concern is not Arthur, it's the part about Ashara that interests her, but nonetheless the two Daynes are connected in the tale.

Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

Arthur is mentioned in high company. This is simply designed to further pique our interest in Arthur. We are reminded of Catelyn's tale.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

We encounter Arthur briefly at the Tower of Joy in Ned's dream. They come together in a rush of steel and shadow, Lyanna screams, and we don't find out what happened. We were told that Ned killed Arthur, but we don't see it and Ned never reflects on it. Still, there's enough here to maintain the belief that what we heard is true and it is supported by a couple of Ned's reflections, like the eight cairns and the two surviving to ride away, points that are actually quite ambiguous, and of course there is the fact that Arthur Dayne was never seen again. By the time AGoT ends, the obvious conclusion to draw based on what we know is that Ned did indeed kill Arthur, even though we have no first-hand account of it.

Also a neat little connection here to the blue eyes of the Others, because ultimately that's what the scene is about, although it is easy to believe it's all about the heir to the Iron Throne.

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

In ACoK Bran revisits the subject. Here we get a little more, although the new information remains vague. Arthur would have killed Ned but for Howland Reed. The first thing we notice is that Catelyn's tale about single combat was not entirely correct. Ned gets sad and says no more. The subject is shut down once again. Bran wishes he had asked what Ned meant, and by doing so guides the reader to wish the same. It's the same technique used later when Jon is curious about Qhorin and the shy maid on her wedding night.

The result is we now have two potential suspects in the mystery of Arthur's death, setting up a dilemma, Ned or Howland, just like Stannis or Dany in TPtwP mystery, or Wylla and Ashara in the mystery of Jon's mother. I would say all three are in fact false dilemma's.

After that we meet Qhorin at the Fist of the First Men. Dawn arrives with him, he talks about a mysterious shy maid and wedding, and he dies with some ruby imagery. His past remains unclear, the blank filled by "So far as Jon knew," Qhorin had spent his life in the Watch.

So Ned shut the subject down with Cat and later Bran. Ned never reflects on killing Arthur. The points that support Arthur's death are cleverly ambiguous. The details remain a mystery. Qhorin's past remains a mystery, despite curious hints that Jon was unwilling to press. And we know there is going to be a reveal about the events at the Tower of Joy. In terms of the three-step structure, the tale Catelyn heard is the set-up, Bran's recollection of what Ned said about Arthur and Howland introduces the conflict in the form of a dilemma, and Howland will produce the resolution when we reach the climax.

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On 1/25/2020 at 5:08 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

IF it was shockingly revealed by Howland Reed, that Arthur survived and took the black, sworn to keep Jon's secret, and we all agreed that he must have been Qhorin Halfhand, as there is really no other candidate, THEN could you appreciate the magnificent motif GRRM constructed to support his main theme, as I have outlined? Or do people think I'm just spouting literary bs?

 

16 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I just wanted to add that Justice is indeed a very important topic here because the goal cannot be unity alone, a totalitarian society could be unified, there must be justice and truth as well. But all those major themes should converge into the main theme, just as the plotlines converge.

I stopped checking in with this thread because I saw no details in Qhorin's story that matched up with Arthur Dayne. I figured it was better to say nothing at all, since the connection simply does not exist for me.

But I respect your approach and I see a possible point around the shy maid on her wedding night as a clue to Qhorin's real or symbolic identity. (I am much more likely to buy into a symbolic rebirth of a character instead of a literal "incognito" Arthur Dayne starting a new life in the Night's Watch. Although more on that in a moment.)

To establish a strong connection between the characters, it would be important to look at other details we know about Qhorin:

  • the maimed hand,
  • he leads a ranging,
  • he sends Jon Snow up the side of a cliff with Stonesnake,
  • he leaves it up to Jon Snow to decide whether to kill Ygritte,
  • he requires the rangers to eat oatmeal made with the blood of a sacrificed horse,
  • he requires Jon to repeat his Night's Watch vow,
  • he requires Jon to agree to kill him,
  • he asks Jon whether his sword is sharp,
  • he compares fire to a beautiful maid on her wedding night,
  • he leads Jon through the secret mountain tunnel and delivers him to Rattleshirt.

The only possible match I see between Qhorin and Arthur Dayne would require a lot of inference: if you compare the Tower of Joy to the mountain with the tunnel, you could make a case that Arthur delivered the baby Jon Snow to Ned Stark through the Tower of Joy (or Prince's Pass) portal in a way similar to Qhorin delivering the NW brother Jon Snow to the Lord of Bones. I don't see a huge amount of supporting detail for this and, as I say, there are some leaps of inference. But I'll grant the possibility.

We don't have any indication that Arthur Dayne is maimed and we don't hear of him leading a hero on a journey. There is no horse sacrifice connected to his history, as far as I can recall. Vows could be important to Arthur - he does grant knighthood to Jaime Lannister. Is the knighting of Jaime comparable to delivering Jon Snow to the Free Folk? I don't see an immediate parallel but I guess I could be persuaded if there are details connecting the ceremonies.

Sorry to say, but I also fail to see evidence for the "importance of unity" theme you see as the likely overarching theme of the series. That seems too optimistic for the messages I see in GRRM's writing and not consistent with the "bittersweet" outcome he has promised for the series.

My current thinking is that a major theme will be "tend to your garden," like Voltaire's Candide. Garth Greenhand is our first major clue for the gardening motif but it echoes through Robert telling Ned in the crypt that Highgarden and peaches are the best part of going south in Westeros, Jon Arryn's "the seed is strong," the destruction of the glass house at Winterfell, etc. To me, the title A Dream of Spring strongly suggests the return of the growing season and says nothing about unity.

But I digress.

I also think it is unlikely that we will see an explicit explanation of who did what at the Tower of Joy, or a big reveal of all of the "disguised" characters who have taken new names or been symbolically reborn to continue their roles as mummer versions of themselves. I think a lot of this will be indirect and we will be uncovering hidden connections and arguing theories for years to come. There are also characters we will never see or encounter directly: Jon Arryn, King Aerys, Arthur Dayne, Howland Reed, Maggie the Frog. Flashbacks and dreams of living characters are the only doorways through which we will directly glimpse these legendary figures - and we know that unreliable narrators are likely to distort what we see or know.

There are symbolic rebirths, however. If we want to know more about Arthur Dayne, there may be reborn or parallel figures who can give us some insight.

Where we do agree is on the @sweetsunray's point about justice as a major theme. When we meet Ned Stark, he is administering the King's Justice, executing a deserter. In spite of his confession and an assurance that he can take the black, Ned is eventually beheaded with Ice, underscoring for the reader that justice is relative or, perhaps, altogether missing.

This may be inference on my part, but I suspect that the sword Ice is somehow missing half of its self: Just + Ice should be the completed pair, but "Just" is nowhere visible in the story. We know that Ned Stark delivered the sword Dawn to House Dayne after Arthur's death. We also know that swords can be split because we see Tobho Mott deliver to Tywin the swords that will be Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. I don't think Ned literally reforged a sword called "Justice" to create "Just" and "Ice," but the symbolism could be present in his handling of the two swords: like "Justice," the sword Dawn disappears from the story when Arthur Dayne dies. Only "Ice" remains and it is a sword that is used in unjust ways.

If you accept that justice is a major ongoing theme, I believe this can help to point out a more likely candidate for a "reborn" Arthur Dayne: Ser Ilyn Payne, the King's Justice.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

But I respect your approach and I see a possible point around the shy maid on her wedding night as a clue to Qhorin's real or symbolic identity.

Thank you.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

To establish a strong connection between the characters, it would be important to look at other details we know about Qhorin:

  • the maimed hand,
  • he leads a ranging,
  • he sends Jon Snow up the side of a cliff with Stonesnake,
  • he leaves it up to Jon Snow to decide whether to kill Ygritte,
  • he requires the rangers to eat oatmeal made with the blood of a sacrificed horse,
  • he requires Jon to repeat his Night's Watch vow,
  • he requires Jon to agree to kill him,
  • he asks Jon whether his sword is sharp,
  • he compares fire to a beautiful maid on her wedding night,
  • he leads Jon through the secret mountain tunnel and delivers him to Rattleshirt.

The only possible match I see between Qhorin and Arthur Dayne would require a lot of inference:

That Arthur died or that Qhorin spent his whole life in the Watch is also inference. These beliefs have been held for so long that people often forget that. Arthur's death is a mystery, key information has been withheld, there will be a reveal, and I doubt that reveal will be pointless.

I think Arthur and Qhorin match up quite well on what little we know. Both are respected leaders and highly skilled with a sword. Not all characters have those traits so it at least places them in the same subset. It's not much but it's better to be in the same subset than not.

The rest are hints, granted, and it does require inference because we know little about Arthur.

Qhorin's name is odd because he doesn't seem Ironborn, but if he is then it's odd he served at the Shadow Tower when Denys Mallister dislikes Ironborn.

Qhorin's clean-shaven straight and solemn appearance are classic fantasy knight traits. He is tall and long-limbed, which would certainly suit being highly proficient with a greatsword. Qhorin is described as a big man and Jaime lists Arthur among a group of people he says is stronger than him like the Cleganes, The White Bull, Robert, The Greatjon, all of which are big men. I laid out a logical argument on age a few pages back. You might not agree with my inferences but physically there is no reason they could not be the same person.

Qhorin values discipline and obedience and lives by his vows. Not everyone shares these traits, but they are traits we might expect Arthur to share. Again, it places them in the same subset of characters.

Then there are the clues like Dawn, the shy maid, the rubies. Again, you don't have to agree with my conclusion, but surely you see how they can be taken as clues. Dawn was his sword, Lyanna is suspected to have married Rhaegar, the rubies connect Qhorin's death to the death of Rhaegar. And not to mention Qhorin musing about forgetting how beautiful a fire could be, fire being symbolic of Targaryens and Rhaegar being renowned as beautiful.

Finally, there is Qhorin's vague past. Highly suspicious in my eyes. The objections that Qhorin knew Lord Rickard and heard a black brother tell about the waterfall when he was no older than Jon can both be answered logically. Those statements are  as ambiguous as they are leading, which suggests to me that they are in fact purposefully misleading. We see the same thing with the eight cairns and the two who survived to ride away.

While I agree there's nothing confirmed, I believe the potential for them to match up is clearly there, and when you add in the vague ending for Arthur and equally vague beginning for Qhorin we can see how it could be done. Then add the fact that there will be a reveal about Arthur and how he died is not really significant and would only make for a poor pay-off.

4 hours ago, Seams said:

We don't have any indication that Arthur Dayne is maimed.

 Nor would we if he was injured fighting wildlings after taking the black.

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Sorry to say, but I also fail to see evidence for the "importance of unity" theme you see as the likely overarching theme of the series. That seems too optimistic for the messages I see in GRRM's writing and not consistent with the "bittersweet" outcome he has promised for the series.

I'm suming-up the theme as - united we stand, divided we fall. There's never only one way to phrase a theme. The idea is really more than just unity, it applies to justice, liberty, honor, identity, truth. They will all flow into one stream, a whole movement away from the toxic game of thrones and everything that entails, through conflict and sacrifice, to the dream of spring. That's what the titles of the books suggest and that's what Arthur's story will be when it is revealed he took the black.

A bitter-sweet ending does not conflict with such a theme. With GRRM, everything comes at a cost and the thematic truth will be no different. There will be a cost, probably in the form of a sacrifice.

4 hours ago, Seams said:

My current thinking is that a major theme will be "tend to your garden," like Voltaire's Candide. Garth Greenhand is our first major clue for the gardening motif but it echoes through Robert telling Ned in the crypt that Highgarden and peaches are the best part of going south in Westeros, Jon Arryn's "the seed is strong," the destruction of the glass house at Winterfell, etc. To me, the title A Dream of Spring strongly suggests the return of the growing season and says nothing about unity.

I think it's clear that to get to Spring, differences will have to be set aside and common cause made against the Others. Growing season will return I'm sure, but GRRM loves layered meaning and Spring has a political meaning too. It suggests political change and the birth of nations, etc. Again, moving away from the game of thrones.

4 hours ago, Seams said:

I also think it is unlikely that we will see an explicit explanation of who did what at the Tower of Joy,

We will find out what happened Arthur, one way or another. It has been set up, it will be paid off.

 

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6 hours ago, Seams said:

The only possible match I see between Qhorin and Arthur Dayne would require a lot of inference: if you compare the Tower of Joy to the mountain with the tunnel, you could make a case that Arthur delivered the baby Jon Snow to Ned Stark through the Tower of Joy (or Prince's Pass) portal in a way similar to Qhorin delivering the NW brother Jon Snow to the Lord of Bones.

Well, this is indeed how at least to me Qhorin and Arthur serve a similar role, and there are symbolic mythological pointers to this:

In my essay on Ned and Robert's cursed souls I wrote this once:

Quote

Dionysus-Zagreus was hidden and protected by alternative protectors. George seems to have conflated these into the Kingsguard. In one version it are three aunts (sisters to Dionysus second mortal mother who rebirthed him) or three nymphs. At the Tower of Joy it are three Kingsguard instead. In another Greek version it are the Korybantes. They were an order of nine armored men who worshiped the “Great Mother” Cybele with a ritual armed dance of shields and swords. With all that ruckus the Korybantes prevented Hera from hearing Dionysus’ cries. Twice Ned’s dream mentions seven against three, which adds to ten people. But only nine of those ten actually have a guarding role – the Kingsguard and Ned’s personal bodyguard. So, we have in fact nine Korybantes who dance the dance of swords, clashing and making ruckus, drowning out the cries of George’s secret infant in the tower. From this we can infer that both Kingsguard and Ned’s men all wish to protect Lyanna’s child.

Dionysus-Zagreus references are worked into Jon's arc, including the presumed place where he was born, the ToJ. Dionysus was the "twice born". Jon can be said to have been twice born as well: first at the ToJ and then later when he emerges from the cave. Dionysus was also hidden twice, sheltered and protected twice (and more) at various locations.

The Korybantes were one of those groups of protectors. These warriors had a certain dance ritual with spear and shield, and this is often used in legend to mask the cries of a baby they're protecting. The numbers at the ToJ match up for the 9 Korybantes (excluding Ned).

One of the typical locations where Dionysus is sheltered as a baby is inside a cave, which is featured north of the Wall. It being hidden behind a waterfall recalls nymphs and it being a passage way a womb. Qhorin isn't a Korybante here, but has the role of a male nymph as well as a birthing nurse.

The 3 KG at the ToJ also double as the 3 nymphs watching over baby Dionysus.

So, Arthur et all and Qhorin have a similar role to Jon as being twice born and hidden from being killed.

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15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The 3 KG at the ToJ also double as the 3 nymphs watching over baby Dionysus.

So, Arthur et all and Qhorin have a similar role to Jon as being twice born and hidden from being killed.

Very interesting!

As you point out, though, the role of protector / deliverer at the Tower of Joy is shared by three members of the king's guard: Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower. I would surmise that GRRM ascribes a specific role or power to each of these characters: for instance, one could be a protector, another could be a deliverer of royal babies. Or one could have magic power, another could have combat power and the third could have the power of, I don't know - love? blood? self-sacrifice?

In other words, even if we accept that the mountain cave/tunnel and the Tower of Joy are transitional spaces for delivering a royal child, I don't think there is enough specific information to know what Arthur's role was in making the delivery. I'd have to do a re-read to see if there are clues that pin down the part he plays, and whether they match Qhorin's role at the mountain tunnel.

Another thought about deciphering Qhorin:

In an Arya analysis a few months ago, there was a little discussion of the parallels between or among Qhorin / Yoren / The Norrey and, possibly, Dareon. Links here and here, if anyone wants to pursue them.

I'll also throw in one of my wordplay notions. I believe that GRRM uses some words from non-English languages to enrich his wordplay. In the case of the sword Dawn, I suspect that he has made a connection to the German word "Wand," which means wall in English. Just before he dies, the armorer and smith Donal Noye "gives" the Wall to Jon Snow. This may be the symbolic presentation of the sword Dawn to its new heir and would provide us with an additional candidate for a reborn Arthur Dayne.

Donal: Jon, you have the Wall till I return.

Jon: My lord?

Donal: Lord? I'm a blacksmith. I said, the Wall is yours.[13]
—Donal Noye to Jon Snow
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2 hours ago, Seams said:

As you point out, though, the role of protector / deliverer at the Tower of Joy is shared by three members of the king's guard: Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower. I would surmise that GRRM ascribes a specific role or power to each of these characters: for instance, one could be a protector, another could be a deliverer of royal babies. Or one could have magic power, another could have combat power and the third could have the power of, I don't know - love? blood? self-sacrifice?

In other words, even if we accept that the mountain cave/tunnel and the Tower of Joy are transitional spaces for delivering a royal child, I don't think there is enough specific information to know what Arthur's role was in making the delivery. I'd have to do a re-read to see if there are clues that pin down the part he plays, and whether they match Qhorin's role at the mountain tunnel.

All three symbols of the KG knights at the ToJ relate to the Eulisinian mysteries:

Whent's bat is the symbol for Persephone. In my first chtonic essay I pointed out how Lyanna is very much loaded with attributes of Persephone. So, Whent and Lyanna's personal attributes are a directional pointer to "Eulisinian mystery".

A figure featured and part of the rituals during the performance of the Eusinian mysteries was Dionysus-Iacchus. Iacchus is the torch-bearer, the light bringing star in the night. Hightower's sigil is that of a torch on top of a tower. We don't know Arthur's sigil, but his symbol is the sword Dawn and the title Sword of the Morning. His sword gives light like the moon (or star), and is said to have been forged from a "falling star". The "star" related to dawn (and dusk) is Venus, or Lucifer, or Lightbringer.

So, while Whent's symbolism ties him to Lyanna as Persephone, Hightower and Arthur are symbolically tied to Jon as Dionysys (the Iacchus incarnation).

The fire on top of a tower reminds us of a lighttower, or a "torch". To me this suggests that Gerold wasn't jsut there anymore on orders of Aerys, but that he had indeed altered his prior "stickler to the rules" view, and saw Jon as his king and wanted to not just protect him but install him on a throne. He wanted to become a kingmaker, as Hightowers have been in the past. While it was taboo for initiates to reveal what occurred within the sacred temple of Persephone and her mother during the Eulisinian mysteries, the procession towards the temple was done while the general public could see it, and they would be able to see which man carried the torch. Gerold Hightower therefore to me represents the less mysterious aspects of Jon's birth - heir, king, etc...

But Arthur wields the truer light, the starlight. And so he stands for the spiritual importance of Jon's existence/birth.

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The moon was rising behind one mountain and the sun sinking behind another as Jon struck sparks from flint and dagger, until finally a wisp of smoke appeared. Qhorin came and stood over him as the first flame rose up flickering from the shavings of bark and dead dry pine needles. "As shy as a maid on her wedding night," the big ranger said in a soft voice, "and near as fair. Sometimes a man forgets how pretty a fire can be."

He was not a man you'd expect to speak of maids and wedding nights. So far as Jon knew, Qhorin had spent his whole life in the Watch. Did he ever love a maid or have a wedding? He could not ask.

So you have to ask here, what's with this odd musing from Qhorin? Is this characterization? Possibly, but if so it still adds a sense that there is more to his character than we know about. So far as Jon knew, Qhorin spent his whole life in the Watch. Black brothers don't marry and Mance told us that Qhorin never shared his love for the charms of women. Jon shrinks from probing further and therefore the subject remains unresolved. Will there be a revelation about Qhorin and a wedding? Who will it come form and what will it's purpose be?

Or, we can accept this is a reference to something significant, like a wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna, hence the Targaryen fire symbolism. This way it will be resolved by the revelation that Arthur became Qhorin, which will come when we revisit the Tower of Joy.

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