Where did Elia fit in the Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

What did Elia think of the hole Rhaegar-Lyanna story. My personal theory is that she was okay with it seeing as A she was dornish after all and B she knew Rhaegar wanted/needed another child an she was left barren by Aegon's birth.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

What did Elia think of the hole Rhaegar-Lyanna story. My personal theory is that she was okay with it seeing as A she was dornish after all and B she knew Rhaegar wanted/needed another child an she was left barren by Aegon's birth.

We have no idea. Many people fantasize about this, developing ideas based on how they want to see the Lyanna-Rhaegar story.

We don't even know whether Elia Martell liked or loved or cared for Rhaegar Targaryen. Rhaegar was supposedly 'fond' of her, but what she felt for him we don't really know.

What we do know - that Elia allegedly couldn't conceive children after Aegon unless they were willing to accept her death in childbirth - could indicate that their marriage as a marriage where people slept together was over after the birth of Aegon. Which means Elia's place in the Lyanna-Rhaegar story is that of the abandoned, barren wife which no longer had any purpose.

The idea people seem to like to toss around - that she bought into Rhaegar's mad ramblings about prophecy - doesn't seem to be very plausible to me, considering very few educated people in Westeros care about prophecy.

[TedBear]

Screaming with joy that she shouldn't be, her position in all of this was almost literally thrown in the corner kick. 

 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

My personal theory is that she was okay with it seeing as A she was dornish after all

Dornish doesn't mean stupid, or lack of political awareness. You should be pretty dumb to let your hubby knock up the daughter of the warden of the North and bethrothed to the LP od the Stormlands, whose brother was about to marry the daughter of the LP of the Trident and was close with heir of the Eyrie while his other brother viewed the Warden of the East as a 2nd father. And her being Dornish should've known about the Blackfyre Rebellions.

I don't know why in the world would she ok with such deal, but then again we don't know, maybe she indeed was another zealot.

[Lord Lannister]

Very poorly. Whatever Elia's feelings towards Rhaegar or her Dornish tolerance for extramarital affairs, Rhaegar marrying Lyanna and conceiving a child puts her children's place in jeopardy. People get murderous about contested successions.

[The Jingo]

47 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Very poorly. Whatever Elia's feelings towards Rhaegar or her Dornish tolerance for extramarital affairs, Rhaegar marrying Lyanna and conceiving a child puts her children's place in jeopardy. People get murderous about contested successions.

This.

Additionally, it's one thing to tolerate your husband's mistress and another to be pleased about him publicly passing you over to crown another woman Queen of Love and Beauty.

[SilverGhost]

Probably pretty upset. 

In most of the Rhaegar stuff she's either ignored except as a plot point why R+L could not be together or assumed to fully accept her husband running off with a random girl he met at a tournament where he publicly snubbed her. 

When Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna Elia and her children were left in King's Landing with the Mad King while Rhaegar and his new girl were off who knows where. Once the Mad King murders the Warden of the North and his eldest son and the Rebellion kicks off she and her children are stuck in KL as hostages for Dorne to stay loyal - the Mad King even threatens her life in order to get those 10,000 Dornish spears that would fight at the Trident. Rhaegar knew his father was nuts and yet left his wife and children behind with him. 

I doubt that Rhaegar gave a damn about her or her feelings. He always reads to me like someone in love with their own legend and who believes that they are right about something major and therefore all of their actions are justified. 

Which is why I hope Aegon is real. At the very least JonCon was probably a better dad than Rhaegar would have been.

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

unless they were willing to accept her death in childbirth

There's a good question here. We are told that the maesters told Elia she couldn't have any more children, but what does that really mean? That she suffered a kind of hysterectomy or that she could still but it would kill her?

6 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Rhaegar marrying Lyanna

I think marriage is a bit of a stretch. All Rhaegar probably wanted was getting another child (the dragon must have 3 heads).

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, SilverGhost said:

When Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna Elia and her children were left in King's Landing with the Mad King while Rhaegar and his new girl were off who knows where. Once the Mad King murders the Warden of the North and his eldest son and the Rebellion kicks off she and her children are stuck in KL as hostages for Dorne to stay loyal - the Mad King even threatens her life in order to get those 10,000 Dornish spears that would fight at the Trident. Rhaegar knew his father was nuts and yet left his wife and children behind with him. 

She was left on Dragonstone, not in KL.

22 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

There's a good question here. We are told that the maesters told Elia she couldn't have any more children, but what does that really mean? That she suffered a kind of hysterectomy or that she could still but it would kill her?

Most likely the latter. Bedridden for half a year after the birth of Rhaenys, nearly killed by the birth of Aegon - a third child would be the death of her.

22 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think marriage is a bit of a stretch. All Rhaegar probably wanted was getting another child (the dragon must have 3 heads).

Only, a bastard child doesn't count as a dragon head - Aegon the Conqueror had three sibling, not two, but Orys wasn't included in the sigil. Just like Jon pointed out that he, as a Snow, was not entitled to a direwolf puppy. Now, would Rhaegar be able to think outside the box of the social norms? And here we're talking not just about the status of his child but also about Lyanna's, who would be dishonored by birthing a bastard.

 

On Elia: we really know too little about her. I think the argument "she was Dornish" holds no water as it is simply too broad. What we know about her as a person is that she was really sweet, and not stupid, and the HotU vision of her and Rhaegar seems to be implying that she was in the know about the prophecy. However, we don't know if she believed it or not. If she did believe it, I think a case can be made that she was willing to sacrifice her marriage for the sake of the realm because without that sacrifice, her children would die in the ice zombie apocalypse. If she did not, Rhaegar could have sweetened the deal by letting her have a lover and ensuring her children's succession (since they had a boy and a girl, a child by Lyanna could have married either, and if he expected a girl, the less of a problem replicating the original trio).

 

[Loge]

53 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Only, a bastard child doesn't count as a dragon head - Aegon the Conqueror had three sibling, not two, but Orys wasn't included in the sigil. Just like Jon pointed out that he, as a Snow, was not entitled to a direwolf puppy. Now, would Rhaegar be able to think outside the box of the social norms? And here we're talking not just about the status of his child but also about Lyanna's, who would be dishonored by birthing a bastard.

There's also the Kingsguard's presence at the Tower of Joy, which doesn't make sense if neither Lyanna nor Jon were part of the royal family. If on the other hand, Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then Jon is the heir to the throne and the ToJ is the very place for the Kingsguard to be.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Loge said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then Jon is the heir to the throne

How? Even if Rhaegar pulled a Maegor and took a second wife (which would have massive problems) Aegon would still be the first born. As for the theory that Rhaegar annulled his marriage, even if he could in Westerosi customs (we don't really know that) he would at least need the High Septon's approval which sure as hell didn't happen cause if it did it would be common knowledge. Even if he did annul his marriage with Elia (again highly improbable) that wouldn't automatically remove his children from the succession. 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Only, a bastard child doesn't count as a dragon head - Aegon the Conqueror had three sibling, not two, but Orys wasn't included in the sigil. Just like Jon pointed out that he, as a Snow, was not entitled to a direwolf puppy. Now, would Rhaegar be able to think outside the box of the social norms? And here we're talking not just about the status of his child but also about Lyanna's, who would be dishonored by birthing a bastard.

He could maybe just legitimize Jon? Cause if he wants to marry Lyanna he has 2 options. 1. Take her as a second wife (ask Maegor how well that would go) 2. Annul his previous marriage with Elia (very hard) and somehow keep his children with her legitimate (cause otherwise you reach the same problem of bastardy). I think he didn't really care about Lyanna's honor (plus she was the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, even with a bastard she would have no problem finding a very good match), so all in all it would be far easier to just legitimize Jon then to marry Lyanna.

[Loge]

6 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How? Even if Rhaegar pulled a Maegor and took a second wife (which would have massive problems) Aegon would still be the first born. As for the theory that Rhaegar annulled his marriage, even if he could in Westerosi customs (we don't really know that) he would at least need the High Septon's approval which sure as hell didn't happen cause if it did it would be common knowledge. Even if he did annul his marriage with Elia (again highly improbable) that wouldn't automatically remove his children from the succession. 

 

He could maybe just legitimize Jon? Cause if he wants to marry Lyanna he has 2 options. 1. Take her as a second wife (ask Maegor how well that would go) 2. Annul his previous marriage with Elia (very hard) and somehow keep his children with her legitimate (cause otherwise you reach the same problem of bastardy). I think he didn't really care about Lyanna's honor (plus she was the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, even with a bastard she would have no problem finding a very good match), so all in all it would be far easier to just legitimize Jon then to marry Lyanna.

Obviously, Rhaegar didn't plan to produce an heir with Lyanna. But after the death of Aegon and Rhaenys, Jon is the heir. The marriage was obviously kept secret, though at least some of the Kingsguard must have known. It's one of the story's big mysteries, of course. Rhaegar definitely didn't have his marriage annulled. That's definitely something he couldn't have kept secret.

As for legitimising Jon, IIRC that's the king's prerogative. Rhaegar couldn't do it.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

9 minutes ago, Loge said:

The marriage was obviously kept secret, though at least some of the Kingsguard must have known.

Which marriage? Remember, by the time Rhaegar died, he was still married with Elia. As for legitimizing Jon I'm saying he would have done it when he took the throne in the case he won at the Trident. I don't think he ever considered he would lose, so in his planing it would be far safer and easier to keep Jon as a bastard and legitimize him when he took the Throne rather then marry Lyanna (he knew what happened to Maegor when he tried a similar stunt).

[Loge]

43 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Which marriage? Remember, by the time Rhaegar died, he was still married with Elia.

That didn't stop the Targaryens in the past. Sure, it has been a while since they last practised polygamy, but there is precedent. If Aerys could marry his sister, then why should Rhaegar not be able to have a second wife? He could either just have ignored Westerosi custom or found a loophole, citing his wife's inability to have more children or something of that sort. 

[Lord Lannister]

7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think marriage is a bit of a stretch. All Rhaegar probably wanted was getting another child (the dragon must have 3 heads).

I don't think so. The deployment of the Kingsguard during Robert's Rebellion is quite telling. He took three kingsguard personally to the Trident. He left the youngest and most inexperienced member to guard King Aerys, his wife and first two children. Finally, he left the greatest of the three to protect Lyanna and their child.

There's a lot we don't know about the Tower of Joy but it's clear Rhaegar thought what was there was more important than him personally, his father, and his first two children. That implies Heavily his son and heir was there.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

On Elia: we really know too little about her. I think the argument "she was Dornish" holds no water as it is simply too broad. What we know about her as a person is that she was really sweet, and not stupid, and the HotU vision of her and Rhaegar seems to be implying that she was in the know about the prophecy. However, we don't know if she believed it or not. If she did believe it, I think a case can be made that she was willing to sacrifice her marriage for the sake of the realm because without that sacrifice, her children would die in the ice zombie apocalypse. If she did not, Rhaegar could have sweetened the deal by letting her have a lover and ensuring her children's succession (since they had a boy and a girl, a child by Lyanna could have married either, and if he expected a girl, the less of a problem replicating the original trio).

I think a case can be made that she might have believed in the prophecy comes from Alleras/Sarella. 

"The dragon has three heads," he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.
"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales."
"No riddle." Alleras sipped his wine. (Prologue, AFfC)

Up until that point, we heard the sentence for the very first time from the ghost chorus of the HotU , then from Rhaegar's own mouth, from Dany repeating the sentence several times, Jorah because Dany told him about it and he was trying to use that information to his advantage, Alleras/Sarella and later Maester Aemon when he was dying.

Considering Sarella's familial connection to Elia, her curiosity on all things, it would not be surprising in the least if she heard that line from Oberyn who says he was very close to his sister. So she might end up being someone who knows much and more.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He could maybe just legitimize Jon?

But if the prophecy speaks about the birth of a Prince That Was Promised, he should be born a prince, and that requires marriage.

 

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Cause if he wants to marry Lyanna he has 2 options. 1. Take her as a second wife (ask Maegor how well that would go)

But we are 300 years after Maegor, and the Faith is nowhere next to the level of power it had at Maegor's time. - Doesn't mean that a polygamous marriage wouldn't be problematic even with the Faith cowed, but again: if you believe that you are preventing an apocalypse, would political swabbles deter you?

 

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

2. Annul his previous marriage with Elia (very hard) and somehow keep his children with her legitimate (cause otherwise you reach the same problem of bastardy).

I think that annulling his marriage to Elia would piss off even more people than polygamy

Plus, annuling the marriage takes away the status of the children, so, that's not an option.

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think he didn't really care about Lyanna's honor (plus she was the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, even with a bastard she would have no problem finding a very good match), so all in all it would be far easier to just legitimize Jon then to marry Lyanna.

If he truly loved her (and look no further than my sig to see GRRM's take on it), then he would have cared, not to mention that Lyanna herself would have had her say in this, as well. His family's precedent in polygamy and the fact that with her, the ceremony could have been performed before the old gods instead of the Seven, make for an excellent opportunity, a way out. 

 

45 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think a case can be made that she might have believed in the prophecy comes from Alleras/Sarella. 

"The dragon has three heads," he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.
"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales."
"No riddle." Alleras sipped his wine. (Prologue, AFfC)

Up until that point, we heard the sentence for the very first time from the ghost chorus of the HotU , then from Rhaegar's own mouth, from Dany repeating the sentence several times, Jorah because Dany told him about it and he was trying to use that information to his advantage, Alleras/Sarella and later Maester Aemon when he was dying.

Considering Sarella's familial connection to Elia, her curiosity on all things, it would not be surprising in the least if she heard that line from Oberyn who says he was very close to his sister. So she might end up being someone who knows much and more.

That's an interesting catch! I do believe that Elia might have been a willing participant, putting the good of the realm before her own personal gain and not considering the succession as important as saving her children's lives by conceding to what people perceived as a slight. Perhaps she even had such a great heart that she didn't begrudge Rhaegar his happiness with another woman, social norms be damned? That would make her almost a saint, but the hell, why not? 

[frenin]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Only, a bastard child doesn't count as a dragon head - Aegon the Conqueror had three sibling, not two, but Orys wasn't included in the sigil. Just like Jon pointed out that he, as a Snow, was not entitled to a direwolf puppy. Now, would Rhaegar be able to think outside the box of the social norms? And here we're talking not just about the status of his child but also about Lyanna's, who would be dishonored by birthing a bastard.

 

Legit the kid is the simpler way, don't reallythink he really gave damn about her honor, the only way imo i see him marrying her is if he indeed was a lovestruck prince, if you don't give a damn about the consequences of your actions, it¡s likelier you don't care about how suicidal one path may be.

 

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

But if the prophecy speaks about the birth of a Prince That Was Promised, he should be born a prince, and that requires marriage.

 

Or only him having the blood and status, which can be reached later.

 

5 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

But we are 300 years after Maegor, and the Faith is nowhere next to the level of power it had at Maegor's time. - Doesn't mean that a polygamous marriage wouldn't be problematic even with the Faith cowed, but again: if you believe that you are preventing an apocalypse, would political swabbles deter you?

 

True but why the Faith would allow it?? It's not as he could send people after them, but as long as they condem an already legally shaky marriage, the marriage is not going to last, less believed lawful, unless either Rhaegar takes the Throne asap or is backed by the Crown. But Rhaegar could've taken her as her salt wife, threfore using the ultimate loophole.

 

9 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

If he truly loved her (and look no further than my sig to see GRRM's take on it), then he would have cared, not to mention that Lyanna herself would have had her say in this, as well. His family's precedent in polygamy and the fact that with her, the ceremony could have been performed before the old gods instead of the Seven, make for an excellent opportunity, a way out. 

 

Doubt that people think Maegor's example as a precedence and it's even more unlikely that the Northeners contemplate polygamy as feasible, we have never learnt about a polygamy marriage in the North and the more the andals customs were entering in the North, the less likelier that the custom, if it ever was, was abandoned. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Loge said:

There's also the Kingsguard's presence at the Tower of Joy, which doesn't make sense if neither Lyanna nor Jon were part of the royal family. If on the other hand, Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then Jon is the heir to the throne and the ToJ is the very place for the Kingsguard to be.

The KG were there on Rhaegar's orders. He commanded them to stayed there, they stayed there, Jon and Lyanna's status have little to do in that. The heir to the Throne was at that time Viserys.

 

 

3 hours ago, Loge said:

That didn't stop the Targaryens in the past. Sure, it has been a while since they last practised polygamy, but there is precedent. If Aerys could marry his sister, then why should Rhaegar not be able to have a second wife? He could either just have ignored Westerosi custom or found a loophole, citing his wife's inability to have more children or something of that sort. 

It did stop them, since no one has ever repeated the trick since Maegor, Aerys could marry his sister because Targ incest became an accepted custom both among the Westerosi and the Faith. Rhaegar is a prince and as far as we know, although with the totle comes a lot of influency and power, it does not give you any legal rights, why risk to marry if  people will just consider it illegal?? 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I don't think so. The deployment of the Kingsguard during Robert's Rebellion is quite telling. He took three kingsguard personally to the Trident. He left the youngest and most inexperienced member to guard King Aerys, his wife and first two children. Finally, he left the greatest of the three to protect Lyanna and their child.

There's a lot we don't know about the Tower of Joy but it's clear Rhaegar thought what was there was more important than him personally, his father, and his first two children. That implies Heavily his son and heir was there.

Not at all, Rhaegar believed he was going to get the w and defeat the rebels and Elia and her kids were protected by a thousands swords  at KL, so it's only a hint and a fucked up in hindsight, it can be arged that unless Lewyn should've stayed with his niece but then again, it's Rhaegar, for all the talk about how he was good at everything, we only see fuck up after fuck up.

[TedBear]

If Jon is legit I expect him to be like a Stark in the end, I don’t think he’s going to end up on the throne anyway to have any importance whether or not he’s a legit Targaryen, what’s going to matter is just his blood, if a zombie attack is happening and there's a person with a dragon protecting you, who cares if it's a prince or a bastard, if Jon is a prince, people (and their heads full of prejudice) will always remember him as a prince, never as a bastard, even though he spent his life as a bastard.

But it is too likely that Rhaegar would not want his third dragon head as a bastard, he should be born a prince. 

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

There's a good question here. We are told that the maesters told Elia she couldn't have any more children, but what does that really mean? That she suffered a kind of hysterectomy or that she could still but it would kill her?

We don't know. Could mean either of that. Crucial thing is it made Elia useless as a wife who was supposed to give birth to more children (especially if Rhaegar did not want to kill her in childbirth or at all).

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think marriage is a bit of a stretch. All Rhaegar probably wanted was getting another child (the dragon must have 3 heads).

The promised prince in Rhaegar's mind was Aegon, not Lyanna's child, so technically she could have just been a mistress. If she wasn't, I think that was because of actual love/Lya's unwillingness to fuck this man unless he was her lawful husband, etc. not because of prophecy nonsense.

The idea that prophetic 'dragon heads' have to be born legitimate in the eyes of Rhaegar or anyone is pretty silly in light of the fact that the bastard-born Daemon Blackfyre is still known to history as 'the Black Dragon'. Nowhere is it stated or implied that Rhaegar tried to mimic Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives in his children or that he actually connected the prophecy he read in a meaningful way to them.

Aegon and his sisters seem to have known of the prophecy and may have believed, for a time, they were fulfilling it (the prophecy is the reason why I think they chose a three-headed dragon as their sigil rather than, you know, just three dragons).