Where did Elia fit in the Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship?

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Not at all, Rhaegar believed he was going to get the w and defeat the rebels and Elia and her kids were protected by a thousands swords  at KL, so it's only a hint and a fucked up in hindsight, it can be arged that unless Lewyn should've stayed with his niece but then again, it's Rhaegar, for all the talk about how he was good at everything, we only see fuck up after fuck up.

Well, everything we hear about Rhaegar is filtered through the lens of time, vagueness and personal bias. So it's hard to say much definitively about his actions much less what went through his head. Jaime's memory of begging Rhaegar to go to the Trident along with the three best being sent to the Tower of Joy suggests Rhaegar was calling most of the shots. However, Aerys did have at least some say in the deployments as well. He wanted Elia and her children close to keep Dorne loyal. So he isn't going to trust Lewyn with Elia and the kids. Likewise, Rhaegar isn't going to trust him with Lyanna and Jon. So he pretty much had to go with Rhaegar to the Trident. If Rhaegar was utterly confident of the win, I don't think Lyanna would've been so heavily protected as she was. 

[Julia H.]

I can't imagine Elia was happy about this arrangement or that she felt sisterly love for Lyanna. No woman likes to share her husband with a mistress or a second wife or even a distant and secret idol. It might be that giving birth to two babies and nearly dying for it meant is was a relief to her that certain duties were taken over by another woman. Nevertheless, she still would have had reason to worry about the future of her own children - not unlike Cat felt because of Jon. 

However.

It seems (as per the HOTU) that she was familiar with the prophecy, more precisely, that Rhaegar talked to her about it. If this is so, then it at least suggests that Rhaegar considered her an ally, and shared his concerns with her. Elia may have been convinced by Rhaegar (or someone else) and she may have shared Rhaegar's belief in the prophecy. Or not. Even in the latter case, however, she had to accept that her husband was going to act in accordance with the prophecy because that was what he believed his duty was. (In fact, even without a prophecy, a crown prince could want to have a spare male heir, just in case.) All that means, I think, that she had two options:

She could have volunteered to give birth to the third head of the dragon. It would have meant sacrificing her own life for the prophecy. There would be no guarantee, though, that her child would survive the birth that would kill the mother. What was sure was that Elia would be dead and all her children would be left motherless. Then Rhaegar could remarry and father as many little dragons on his new wife as he wanted. But who could tell what the new wife and / or her family would do to remove Elia's children from the line of succession? 

The other option was that Rhaegar would choose someone else to be the mother of the third head of the dragon (a second wife, I think) while Elia was still alive. In this case, it was vital to make sure that Rhaegar wouldn't want to annul his marriage with Elia - i.e. that he could still regard her (and her family) as an ally. In this way, the prophecy would be satisfied and Elia would stay alive, in the status of wife nr 1, to bring up and protect her children to the best of her abilities and perhaps do everything in her power to help establish general goodwill and cooperation in the family instead of rivalry and jealousy in the best interest of her children (and the prophecy). (Or, as a darker alternative, to have the "second family" poisoned at a later point, for all we know.)

Certainly not a happy choice, but perhaps a way to fit Elia in...

(Of course, there are other possibilities, such as that she just cried and wallowed in self-pity throughout all those months, without considering her remaining options and leaving everything to Rhaegar, or that she actively tried some sort of plot against Rhaegar's plans, and so on. We don't know.) 

[frenin]

6 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Jaime's memory of begging Rhaegar to go to the Trident along with the three best being sent to the Tower of Joy suggests Rhaegar was calling most of the shots. However, Aerys did have at least some say in the deployments as well. He wanted Elia and her children close to keep Dorne loyal. So he isn't going to trust Lewyn with Elia and the kids.

Rhaegar was leading the royalist army,not so  much calling the shots but then again, we don't know much about the war. Lewyn was given the command of the 10k dornish that were coming, i oubt that he would've spireted her away if he guarded her.

 

6 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Likewise, Rhaegar isn't going to trust him with Lyanna and Jon. So he pretty much had to go with Rhaegar to the Trident. 

That's a good point.

 

 

6 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

If Rhaegar was utterly confident of the win, I don't think Lyanna would've been so heavily protected as she was. 

He was utterly confident and he didn't protec the ToJ heavily as far as we know, Ned and the gang cut through them.

 

 

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

(In fact, even without a prophecy, a crown prince could want to have a spare male heir, just in case.) All that means, I think, that she had two options:

I think she did her duty by giving the realm an heir, but yes Rhaegar could've forced her if he wanted to.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

The other option was that Rhaegar would choose someone else to be the mother of the third head of the dragon (a second wife, I think) while Elia was still alive. In this case, it was vital to make sure that Rhaegar wouldn't want to annul his marriage with Elia - i.e. that he could still regard her (and her family) as an ally. 

I doubt how could he still regard her and her family as an ally, since Elia would be forced to choose between death or do as i want,  there is little difference with what Aerys (and Rhaegar) pulled in canon by taking her as a hostage to make sure of the Martells good behaviour, i think it's worse. Don't really see how could Rhaegar count with Elia's family either.

As far as we know, a consumated marriage makes an annulment pretty much impossible, Rhaegar, as King, could've set aside the marriage, but that would not alter the line of succesion, unless king Rhaegar pulled a Jaeharys/Viserys.  There is no guarantee, but Rhaegar's word, that he would not in the future  favour his other children or those children would not any green or blackfyre ideas. 

And more importantly, giving political context of Westeros after Harrenhall, unless Aerys suddenly died of a stroke, any chances of Rhaegar gaining the Throne, either peacefully or by force, passed through the Martell's backing, which means that Elia had Rhaegar by the balls.

And whereas i can see Elia not minding Rhaegar going after a Stokworth, Lyanna Stark seems simply too much, she must've been a zealot, a saint or an idiot to sign such deal, that screamed problem! so loud...

 

 

 

[Julia H.]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

I doubt how could he still regard her and her family as an ally, since Elia would be forced to choose between death or do as i want,  there is little difference with what Aerys (and Rhaegar) pulled in canon by taking her as a hostage to make sure of the Martells good behaviour, i think it's worse. Don't really see how could Rhaegar count with Elia's family either.

If Elia was to take an active political role in this, she would want peace between her husband and her family as long as the fate of her children was secured. If Rhagear was adamant that he would have another child, then that was the reality Elia had to cope with. One option was to secure an active role for herself in the whole story (since we have indication that Rhaegar discussed the prophecy with her). It would have been a compromise, not a perfect situation for her (or anyone), but there was little she could do to stop Rhaegar from having another child. But, as I said, for all we know, she may have been just a passive sufferer, depressed or hysterical all along, doing nothing, or whatever. Rhaegar certainly didn't force her to have another child though. 

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As far as we know, a consumated marriage makes an annulment pretty much impossible, Rhaegar, as King, could've set aside the marriage, but that would not alter the line of succesion, unless king Rhaegar pulled a Jaeharys/Viserys.  There is no guarantee, but Rhaegar's word, that he would not in the future  favour his other children or those children would not any green or blackfyre ideas. 

Here you seem to be saying that, on the one hand, the line of succession couldn't be altered easily, and, on the other hand, that Elia had only Rhaegar's word regarding the security of her children. I don't think Rhaegar was planning to remove Elia's children from the line of succession or to set aside Elia (he did think her son was the PTWP)- at least nothing we know indicates it. That doesn't mean Elia could not want as much guarantee as she could get - whether it was just Rhaegar's word or more. 

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And more importantly, giving political context of Westeros after Harrenhall, unless Aerys suddenly died of a stroke, any chances of Rhaegar gaining the Throne, either peacefully or by force, passed through the Martell's backing, which means that Elia had Rhaegar by the balls.

Well, that apparently didn't stop Rhaegar, so either he disagreed with you on this, or he persuaded Elia to keep supporting him - and why wouldn't she support him if her son was Rhaegar's heir?  

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And whereas i can see Elia not minding Rhaegar going after a Stokworth, Lyanna Stark seems simply too much, she must've been a zealot, a saint or an idiot to sign such deal, that screamed problem! so loud...

 

If it was the three heads of the dragon that was at stake, though, then Rhaegar probably wasn't going to father a child on a random girl in KL. 

As I said, I don't think Elia was happy with this arrangement, but she apparently couldn't stop it, so she either tried to establish a meaningful, active role for herself in the story or not. I do think the first choice would have been wiser, but who knows...

By the way, yet another (theoretical) option is that Elia did try to stop Rhaegar, and it was (partly) through her scheming that something went wrong and the war started. Do you think that's more likely than the above two options? Or do you think she could only be the passive sufferer all along?

[frenin]

30 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

If Elia was to take an active political role in this, she would want peace between her husband and her family as long as the fate of her children was secured. If Rhagear was adamant that he would have another child, then that was the reality Elia had to cope with. One option was to secure an active role for herself in the whole story (since we have indication that Rhaegar discussed the prophecy with her). It would have been a compromise, not a perfect situation for her (or anyone), but there was little she could do to stop Rhaegar from having another child. But, as I said, for all we know, she may have been depressed or hysterical all along, doing nothing, or whatever. Rhaegar certainly didn't force her to have another child though. 

She likely would, doubtful she could, the reality still is that all the arrangement is a bitter cup she's forced to drink to quite literally avoid death, how can you work this out?? Rhaegar is not only ready to humiliate her and putting her children's rights at risk on a whim, let's be honest here Doran and Oberyn wouldn't give a damn about the prophecy, but has made clear that the other option is pulling an Unworthy and fuck his wife to death. Why would any of Elia's brother willingly cooperate with Rhaegar if he he's betraying them?? This is the worst possible take it or leave it. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Here you seem to be saying that, on the one hand, the line of succession couldn't be altered easily, and, on the other hand, that Elia had only Rhaegar's word regarding the security of her children. I don't think Rhaegar was planning to remove Elia's children from the line of succession or to set aside Elia (he did think her son was the PTWP)- at least nothing we know indicates it. That doesn't mean Elia could not want as much guarantee as she could get - whether it was just Rhaegar's word or more. 

No, the order of succesion can be altered rather easily, it only takes a royal decree, whether that's a good idea or Rhaegar could get away with it, that's another take, but what can't alter the order of succcesion is simply setting asside, which is not an annulment, your wife.  

 

30 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Well, that apparently didn't stop Rhaegar, so either he disagreed with you on this, or he persuaded Elia to keep supporting him - and why wouldn't she support him if her son was Rhaegar's heir?  

Since he took the dumbest road possible, the more likely option, whether Elia agreed or not, is that he ran out of options. He just took Lyanna and went in hiding. He does not need Elia's agreement to do that and if Elia indeed did not support him, he may as wll have taken the zealotry/rapey/lovestruck route. 

Because as far as we know, her son would inherit whether Rhaegar sat his ass on the Throne or not, if she's pissed... why would she support him?? We know that he dropped the council idea and straight up went to his doom, one of the reasons for why that could happen is the Martells showing him the finger, which made him changes his plans.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

If it was the three heads of the dragon that was at stake, though, then Rhaegar probably wasn't going to father a child on a random girl in KL. 

 

Because... 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

 As I said, I don't think Elia was happy with this arrangement, but she apparently couldn't stop it, so she either tried to establish a meaningful, active role for herself in the story or not. I do think the first choice would have been wiser, but who knows...

 

I don't think the first one would be wiser either, she gave her consent to something she could not control, to someone who would've proven untrustworthy. Not i do know why should be Lyanna of all people, if she gave her consent, she must've been as zealot as dear hubby.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

 By the way, yet another (theoretical) option is that Elia did try to stop Rhaegar, and it was (partly) through her scheming that something went wrong and the war started. Do you think that's more likely than the above two options?

No, i think Rhaegar took Lyanna, whether abduction or kidnapping don't really care,  Lyanna's guards told to Brandon and Brandon went straight to KL. Not that after they disappeared a civil war wasn't approaching either way.

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 9:33 AM, Ygrain said:

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 3:17 AM, SilverGhost said:

When Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna Elia and her children were left in King's Landing with the Mad King while Rhaegar and his new girl were off who knows where. Once the Mad King murders the Warden of the North and his eldest son and the Rebellion kicks off she and her children are stuck in KL as hostages for Dorne to stay loyal - the Mad King even threatens her life in order to get those 10,000 Dornish spears that would fight at the Trident. Rhaegar knew his father was nuts and yet left his wife and children behind with him. 

She was left on Dragonstone, not in KL

If my memory is well, Elia was left in KL together with her children. Aerys forbid her to leave KL.

It was Rhaella who was shipped to Dragonstone together with Viserys.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

If my memory is well, Elia was left in KL together with her children. Aerys forbid her to leave KL.

It was Rhaella who was shipped to Dragonstone together with Viserys.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands.

 

I don't have the book, so I don't know how Elia got to KL after Rhaegar's departure, but at least at this point she was nowhere next to Aerys.

[Ygrain]

Folks... in all that talk about succession changes and crises, a crucial fact is getting overlooked: that if the prophecy is correct, there will be no more IT, no more Seven kingdoms, and the succession will entirely cease to matter. If Rhaegar managed to convince Elia that the prophecy was legit, then he had her on board because it is definitely better to suffer another woman and squabble over succession while being alive rather than die a single wife knowing that your children are dead, as well. She may not like her lot in the least but if it was a matter of survival, then that's what it took.

[Ygrain]

10 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I can't imagine Elia was happy about this arrangement or that she felt sisterly love for Lyanna. No woman likes to share her husband with a mistress or a second wife or even a distant and secret idol. It might be that giving birth to two babies and nearly dying for it meant is was a relief to her that certain duties were taken over by another woman. Nevertheless, she still would have had reason to worry about the future of her own children - not unlike Cat felt because of Jon. 

However.

It seems (as per the HOTU) that she was familiar with the prophecy, more precisely, that Rhaegar talked to her about it. If this is so, then it at least suggests that Rhaegar considered her an ally, and shared his concerns with her. Elia may have been convinced by Rhaegar (or someone else) and she may have shared Rhaegar's belief in the prophecy. Or not. Even in the latter case, however, she had to accept that her husband was going to act in accordance with the prophecy because that was what he believed his duty was. (In fact, even without a prophecy, a crown prince could want to have a spare male heir, just in case.) All that means, I think, that she had two options:

She could have volunteered to give birth to the third head of the dragon. It would have meant sacrificing her own life for the prophecy. There would be no guarantee, though, that her child would survive the birth that would kill the mother. What was sure was that Elia would be dead and all her children would be left motherless. Then Rhaegar could remarry and father as many little dragons on his new wife as he wanted. But who could tell what the new wife and / or her family would do to remove Elia's children from the line of succession? 

The other option was that Rhaegar would choose someone else to be the mother of the third head of the dragon (a second wife, I think) while Elia was still alive. In this case, it was vital to make sure that Rhaegar wouldn't want to annul his marriage with Elia - i.e. that he could still regard her (and her family) as an ally. In this way, the prophecy would be satisfied and Elia would stay alive, in the status of wife nr 1, to bring up and protect her children to the best of her abilities and perhaps do everything in her power to help establish general goodwill and cooperation in the family instead of rivalry and jealousy in the best interest of her children (and the prophecy). (Or, as a darker alternative, to have the "second family" poisoned at a later point, for all we know.)

Certainly not a happy choice, but perhaps a way to fit Elia in...

(Of course, there are other possibilities, such as that she just cried and wallowed in self-pity throughout all those months, without considering her remaining options and leaving everything to Rhaegar, or that she actively tried some sort of plot against Rhaegar's plans, and so on. We don't know.) 

Basically, pride versus pragmatism. Was Elia more like Oberyn, or more like Doran? I'm betting on Doran, and hence rolling over and bidding her time.  Dealing with the apocalypse first (if it happens) and the second family later, one way or the other.

[frenin]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Basically, pride versus pragmatism. Was Elia more like Oberyn, or more like Doran? I'm betting on Doran, and hence rolling over and bidding her time.  Dealing with the apocalypse first (if it happens) and the second family later, one way or the other.

Doran was the one sending 10k spears only because of Elia, i doubt any of her brothers, or the dornish for that matter, would agree with insult or were vert happhy with hubby dearest, i think she might have given her consent but only if she was another zealot, if she believed in the prophecy, then it's out of the question she'd agree with whatever Rhaegar had in mind If Elia didn't share her hubby's concerns and wasn't dumb, it's pretty much impossible she'd be ok with it or gave her consent, why would she?? which is why i think Rhaegar was rambling on the roads not taken, hard to call a council if you've managed to antagonize half of the Great Houses of Westeros. 

[Ygrain]

Not sure why everyone following a prophecy should be considered a zealot when the very reason the Targs were still alive while the rest of Valyria perished was thanks to following one. In such a situation, not following a prophecy would actually be pretty dumb, especially if a verified source, aka Daenys the Dreamer, confirmed it.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I've thought for the longest time that Rhaegar was planning on leaving King's Landing completely and that he was waiting on Elia to get better so that she could join him with the children from Dragonstone to wherever he had decided they would go. I think the only reason he even went back to King's Landing to finish the war was because she and the children were there, which would have completely messed up his plans.

As far as Elia goes, I don't think she was some meek or weak woman. I might have believed it if we hadn't met her nieces already. So I don't think she would have been easily pushed aside, but I'm also reminded of something Arianne said Oberyn told his daughters.

"If you would wed, wed," the Red Viper had told his own daughters. "If not, take your pleasure where you find it. There's little enough of it in this world." (The Princess in the Tower, AFfC 40)

Maybe Elia thought the same way as Oberyn. She was married off for duty. She did as she was told, had children at the risk of her own health, provided an heir. If Rhaegar could find someone he loved, then maybe she wanted the same for herself. It's not like she needs to have more children, or can without putting her life in jeopardy. 

[Arthur Peres]

She didn't fit. That's kind of the problem.

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not sure why everyone following a prophecy should be considered a zealot when the very reason the Targs were still alive while the rest of Valyria perished was thanks to following one. In such a situation, not following a prophecy would actually be pretty dumb, especially if a verified source, aka Daenys the Dreamer, confirmed it.

So did Aemon's brothers. And so does Meli, to the point of self convincing herself. And k don't have a better word  for what the Targs did after Daenys had the dream than zealotry... Or Faith...

But i don't see there is a difference in leaving everything behind because you dreamt with an impending doom, than drinking wildfire because you dreamt with dragons. Or it's the outcome what decides what's fate and  what's zealotry??

[Julia H.]

14 hours ago, frenin said:

She likely would, doubtful she could, the reality still is that all the arrangement is a bitter cup she's forced to drink to quite literally avoid death, how can you work this out?? Rhaegar is not only ready to humiliate her and putting her children's rights at risk on a whim, let's be honest here Doran and Oberyn wouldn't give a damn about the prophecy, but has made clear that the other option is pulling an Unworthy and fuck his wife to death. Why would any of Elia's brother willingly cooperate with Rhaegar if he he's betraying them?? This is the worst possible take it or leave it. 

 

 

No, the order of succesion can be altered rather easily, it only takes a royal decree, whether that's a good idea or Rhaegar could get away with it, that's another take, but what can't alter the order of succcesion is simply setting asside, which is not an annulment, your wife.  

 

Since he took the dumbest road possible, the more likely option, whether Elia agreed or not, is that he ran out of options. He just took Lyanna and went in hiding. He does not need Elia's agreement to do that and if Elia indeed did not support him, he may as wll have taken the zealotry/rapey/lovestruck route. 

Because as far as we know, her son would inherit whether Rhaegar sat his ass on the Throne or not, if she's pissed... why would she support him?? We know that he dropped the council idea and straight up went to his doom, one of the reasons for why that could happen is the Martells showing him the finger, which made him changes his plans.

 

 

Because... 

 

 

I don't think the first one would be wiser either, she gave her consent to something she could not control, to someone who would've proven untrustworthy. Not i do know why should be Lyanna of all people, if she gave her consent, she must've been as zealot as dear hubby.

 

 

No, i think Rhaegar took Lyanna, whether abduction or kidnapping don't really care,  Lyanna's guards told to Brandon and Brandon went straight to KL. Not that after they disappeared a civil war wasn't approaching either way.

I get that you hate Rhaegar. But all this talk about zealots in connection with the prophecy seems somewhat over the top to me. This is a world where dragons, giants, greenseers and reanimated corpses exist. This is a world where magic is reality. The Targaryens themselves owed the survival of their family to an ancestor who had, wisely, acted upon a prophecy. In this world, a prophecy is (potentially) something to take seriously. Sure, prophecies aren't foolproof. But to be honest, what political analysts give our real-life politicians isn't foolproof either, yet no one calls politicians "zealots" for paying attention to such analyses. People make mistakes in our world and in Westeros, too. Some people are good at their jobs, others are not. In the world of ASOIAF, taking various forms of magic, including prophecies, into consideration can be as pragmatic as it gets.

Elia didn't have to "believe" in the prophecy, it was enough if she accepted that it was something her husband considered to be of vital importance for the future of the realm. It did not bring her joy or happiness, but a noble woman's life in Westeros is often much more about duty and sacrifice than about joy and happiness. As for her Dornish family, I think she could have played a key role in keeping the peace between them and Rhaegar. All in all, remaining a valuable (political) ally to her husband was in her interest when she could not perform certain wifely duties any longer.

Approaching the question from a different angle, I think there must be a reason why the author chose to give us the information that Elia couldn't have any more children. He didn't have to write the story this way. It could have been simply that Rhaegar chose to have the "third dragon" with another woman for reasons of his own, with no mention of Elia's health problems. Yet, with as little information as we have on that period, the author wanted us to know that, on the one hand, Rhaegar was trying to fulfill a prophecy and thought that the dragon needed three heads, and, on the other hand, that Elia couldn't have given him a third child without taking a very serious risk. The result is necessarily a conflict between a perceived necessity and the possibilities provided by the status quo, which - from a narrative viewpont - needed to be resolved.  

[Julia H.]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

But i don't see there is a difference in leaving everything behind because you dreamt with an impending doom, than drinking wildfire because you dreamt with dragons. Or it's the outcome what decides what's fate and  what's zealotry??

Ultimately, yes.

How would you describe the idea of walking into a burning funeral pyre carrying some fossilized eggs as a way of solving a person's problems? Suicidal? Crazy? Zealotry? Yet, that was what Dany did, and it paid off. If it hadn't, she would have remained just another deluded Targaryen who killed herself. To hatch the dragons, she needed to be desperate enough to take the huge risk involved, but she also needed some understanding of magic, which she had picked up from MMD.  

In general, it is interesting to observe how characters in-world react to the possibility of various types of magic around them, what their judgement is based on and how correct it is. 

[frenin]

45 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I get that you hate Rhaegar. But all this talk about zealots in connection with the prophecy seems somewhat over the top to me. This is a world where dragons, giants, greenseers and reanimated corpses exist. This is a world where magic is reality. The Targaryens themselves owed the survival of their family to an ancestor who had, wisely, acted upon a prophecy. In this world, a prophecy is (potentially) something to take seriously. Sure, prophecies aren't foolproof. But to be honest, what political analysts give our real-life politicians isn't foolproof either, yet no one calls politicians "zealots" for paying attention to such analyses. People make mistakes in our world and in Westeros, too. Some people are good at their jobs, others are not. In the world of ASOIAF, taking various forms of magic, including prophecies, into consideration can be as pragmatic as it gets.

 

Don't hate him, but i don't find a reason to like him either but it's not hate, i adore Davos and had he started acting like Seylse i'd call him a zealot too. Magic is a reality in this world, not so much in Westeros and more specifically not so much in Westeros after the dragons died, only now magic is returning to Westeros. Political analysis are based in experiences, logical data,  reasoning etc. The comparative is incredibly off.  If you tell me that you need to take the daughter of one of the most powerful men in the land and get her pregnant because the saviour of the world would come from duch act i'll call you a zealot, if you tell me that you need to burn innocent kids so your god is pleased and awake a dragon of stone, i'll call you a zealot and if you tell me you need to drink a glassof wildfire in order to become a dragon, i'll call you a zealot.

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

 Elia didn't have to "believe" in the prophecy, it was enough if she accepted that it was something her husband considered to be of vital importance for the future of the realm. It did not bring her joy or happiness, but a noble woman's life in Westeros is often much more about duty and sacrifice than about joy and happiness. As for her Dornish family, I think she could have played a key role in keeping the peace between them and Rhaegar. All in all, remaining a valuable (political) ally to her husband was in her interest when she could not perform certain wifely duties any longer.

 

Had she not believed in all that, the most likely outcome is her telling Rhaegar to fuck off, why would she let him start a  war and  put her own kids rights in danger if she simply did not believe him?? This is not  a resigned woman doing her duty but a woman putting absolutely everything she holds dear in danger over the wish of her husband, this is not hppiness or jealosy and insults but that Elia agreeing Rhaegar spirited Lyanna away is simply absurd.  The consequences of such act are hardly rocket science, why in  the world would she agree to that madness if she didn't agree the world was about to end if not?? Why would she ever acceot that Lyanna was the other mother?? 

About her brothers, as i said before it's incredibly unlikely, Rhaegar would've been forced her to a very shitty position for no acceptable reason in her brothers eye,  that's pretty much a point of no return. 

And well, she could always let Rhaegar fall as long as her son get to inherit, unless ofc she believed Rhaegar would simply fuck her to death, but if not, no neither she was obliged to follow Rhaegar not that was, not by a longshot, the wisest option for her,

 

 

45 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

 Approaching the question from a different angle, I think there must be a reason why the author chose to give us the information that Elia couldn't have any more children. He didn't have to write the story this way. It could have been simply that Rhaegar chose to have the "third dragon" with another woman for reasons of his own, with no mention of Elia's health problems. Yet, with as little information as we have on that period, the author wanted us to know that, on the one hand, Rhaegar was trying to fulfill a prophecy and thought that the dragon needed three heads, and, on the other hand, that Elia couldn't have given him a third child without taking a very serious risk. The result is necessarily a conflict between a perceived necessity and the possibilities provided by the status quo, which - from a narrative viewpont - needed to be resolved.  

Doubtful that may explain, narratively why a seemigly great guy was forced to chose the dumbest route, but doesn't mean that Elia would've to be ok with any of it. Because there are multiple, multiple, multiple, choices for Rhaegar, why pick the worst possible?? And one  that absolutely endangers Elia's kids??

 

 

27 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Ultimately, yes.

How would you describe the idea of walking into a burning funeral pyre carrying some fossilized eggs as a way of solving a person's problems? Suicidal? Crazy? Zealotry? Yet, that was what Dany did, and it paid off. If it hadn't, she would have remained just another deluded Targaryen who killed herself. To hatch the dragons, she needed to be desperate enough to take the huge risk involved, but she also needed some understanding of magic, which she had picked up from MMD.  

In general, it is interesting to observe how characters in-world react to the possibility of various types of magic around them, what their judgement is based on and how correct it is. 

Then i disagree. It's exactly the same act but we are reinterpreting it afterwards.

Ofc that what Dany did was craziness and suicidal and ofc Dany was desperate enough to no give a damn but that's the point, if Stannis actually have gotten stone dragons, he'd be a zealot that killed his own nephew to gain the Throne, 

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Folks... in all that talk about succession changes and crises, a crucial fact is getting overlooked: that if the prophecy is correct, there will be no more IT, no more Seven kingdoms, and the succession will entirely cease to matter. If Rhaegar managed to convince Elia that the prophecy was legit, then he had her on board because it is definitely better to suffer another woman and squabble over succession while being alive rather than die a single wife knowing that your children are dead, as well. She may not like her lot in the least but if it was a matter of survival, then that's what it took.

What prophecy are you talking about? The prophecy about the promised prince is no apocalyptic prophecy about the end of the world or anything as far as we know. We have no clue whatsoever what the promised prince is supposed to do, there isn't even a connection between the promised prince or the Others or beings indicating that they might be meant.

We have no clue why Rhaegar believed that he, as the promised prince, had to become a warrior.

The very fact that Melisandre and Benerro - who both definitely knew prophecies possibly pointing to the same person as the promised prince prophecy the Targaryens have - do not really connect the destiny of the reborn Azor Ahai with either Westeros or the lands beyond the Wall/Others makes it very clear that nobody knows what the point of this prophecy is.

And the fact that the Targaryens from Aegon I to Aerys II/Rhaegar didn't care about the NW or their sacred duty one bit (with the exception of Queen Alysanne) despite the fact that at least Aegon V and Jaehaerys II (and possibly Maekar and Aerys I as well) knew about the prophecy makes it perfectly clear that they were not expecting that those fantasy enemies of the First Men would come back. In fact, despite the fact that Maester Aemon, a Targaryen prince, the brother, uncle, and great-uncle of three kings, was at the Wall the Watch continued to decline and no Targaryen of that era gives any indication (to our knowledge) to have been interested in the Watch or their lands beyond or the Others.

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not sure why everyone following a prophecy should be considered a zealot when the very reason the Targs were still alive while the rest of Valyria perished was thanks to following one. In such a situation, not following a prophecy would actually be pretty dumb, especially if a verified source, aka Daenys the Dreamer, confirmed it.

We do know the overwhelming majority of educated noblemen in Westeros don't believe in magic and dismiss prophecy out of hand. The story of Daenys the Dreamer is not exactly something that's very present in the mind of the average nobleman of the late 200s AC. It would just be nice story.

Neither Oberyn Martell and especially as cautious and rational a man like Doran Martell would base their political decisions on prophecy. And even the educated people who know prophecies in detail and consider (some of) them credible (like Marwyn) make it clear that they like to fuck with you.

In that sense Rhaegar definitely qualifies as a mad Targaryen in his quest to (1) try to fulfill prophecy when nobody asked him to do that, and (2) risking the destruction of his family and kingdom on the basis of prophecy (assuming he acted for such reasons and not just lust or love). In part he was likely the victim of his dear deluded parents and great-great-uncle there, since there is pretty much no chance that he himself realized/decided that he was the promised prince when he read some scroll.

In general:

Elia's issues don't start with her own children's place in the line of succession under a King Rhaegar (assuming Aerys II would have kept Rhaegar as his Heir Apparent after what he pulled with Lyanna - which is by no means clear) but also her status as the wife of the Prince of Dragonstone and a later queen.

Elia might remain the mother of Rhaegar's heir, Prince Aegon, but she wouldn't be the only queen at Rhaegar's side. Most notably, she wouldn't be the queen and wife her royal husband loved (Rhaegar was just fond of her). We can expect Elia and her entire family and friends and allies not only to turn against 'the whore Lyanna' to protect the rights of Elia's children (like Cat did everything in her power to protect her children from Jon Snow and his potential offspring) but also Elia's own status and rights as queen. The latter is the most important thing - we do hear how Rhaegar publicly slighting his own wife at the tourney of Harrenhal does cause irritation and strife. This would have been much worse with a king having two queens at the same time (who were not sisters). We also see how Maegor's queens destroyed each other, especially Tyanna and Alys, despite the fact that they may have loved each other as much as Maegor, once, back in Pentos (and in their cases there were no children involved). Aegon's queens were also his sisters, so things were somewhat more stable there, but their children and grandchildren still tried to kill each other.

The idea that this kind of setup could have worked is not very likely. Especially since we still have no clue what Elia felt for Rhaegar. Did she love him? Was she indifferent towards him? Did she like being his wife or would she have rather remained in Dorne? Was she happy with her life? We have no idea. But all that is important to know if we want to guess how the character might have reacted to the Lyanna thing. An indifferent Elia not caring much about Rhaegar or sex with Rhaegar/spending time with Rhaegar might have had little personal issues with that. An Elia being more emotionally involved (positively or negatively) would have had severe issues with that.

And in any case - on a public level she would have never been able to ignore this. She was a Princess of Dorne, not some tavern wench. Replacing her with another woman isn't something she or her family could accept. If they did, they would lose face and become the laughingstock of Westeros.

16 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Ultimately, yes.

How would you describe the idea of walking into a burning funeral pyre carrying some fossilized eggs as a way of solving a person's problems? Suicidal? Crazy? Zealotry? Yet, that was what Dany did, and it paid off. If it hadn't, she would have remained just another deluded Targaryen who killed herself. To hatch the dragons, she needed to be desperate enough to take the huge risk involved, but she also needed some understanding of magic, which she had picked up from MMD.

The difference here is rather striking. Dany acted intuitively and was, of course, seen as quite mad at the time. One could even say she was mad because she had no rational reason to believe this could work.

However, having a strong inner feeling/conviction that something is going to work is a more direct, more immediate motivation to act than the (re-)interpretation of an obscure prophecy which you have no reason to believe is actually genuine/becoming true. That's scholars sitting at a desk and thinking themselves clever because they do understand the subtleties of High Valyrian (or whatever language the prophecy was written in). We see how this kind of thing goes very wrong for our good Cersei, and Rhaegar clearly went down a similar road to doom and destruction (if he acted with the intention to fulfill prophecy - which we don't yet know). His own conviction that he himself and/or his children were destined to fulfill the prophecy is clearly hubris and presumption considering that the prophecy setting down who would bring forth the promised prince (the bloodline of Aerys II and Rhaella) didn't mention him or the time when this was to happen. It could be Rhaegar's grandchildren or great-grandchildren for all he knew (to our knowledge at this point) or children of his younger siblings, one of which was already born when Rhaegar started to believe his son Aegon was the promised prince.

True prophecy/real prophecy doesn't need some guy ensuring it is going to come true - that's the core mistake in Mel's actions, and, it seems, also in Rhaegar's. He meant well, but he ruined everything for himself, Lyanna, his family and a lot of people in the Seven Kingdoms.

True prophecy just comes true. And if there is a true prophecy about you you don't have to read it and deliberately try to fulfill it - it will just become true. Period.

 

[Julia H.]

16 hours ago, frenin said:

Don't hate him, but i don't find a reason to like him either but it's not hate, i adore Davos and had he started acting like Seylse i'd call him a zealot too. Magic is a reality in this world, not so much in Westeros and more specifically not so much in Westeros after the dragons died, only now magic is returning to Westeros. Political analysis are based in experiences, logical data,  reasoning etc. The comparative is incredibly off.  If you tell me that you need to take the daughter of one of the most powerful men in the land and get her pregnant because the saviour of the world would come from duch act i'll call you a zealot, if you tell me that you need to burn innocent kids so your god is pleased and awake a dragon of stone, i'll call you a zealot and if you tell me you need to drink a glassof wildfire in order to become a dragon, i'll call you a zealot.

In our worlds, sure. I would do the same. But the world of ASOIAF is different. The reader is made to see that in this world, it is a problem that those in power do not see the approaching threat of magical beings coming from the Far North, which could wipe out the whole kingdom. If you deny the possibility of magic, you deny a part of reality. It was believing in a prophecy that saved the Targaryens only a few centuries ago. What madness must it have seemed at the time to leave behind Valyria and move to a place like Dragonstone for no other reason than a prophecy! Yet, it was the sensible thing to do. 

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Had she not believed in all that, the most likely outcome is her telling Rhaegar to fuck off, why would she let him start a  war and  put her own kids rights in danger if she simply did not believe him?? This is not  a resigned woman doing her duty but a woman putting absolutely everything she holds dear in danger over the wish of her husband, this is not hppiness or jealosy and insults but that Elia agreeing Rhaegar spirited Lyanna away is simply absurd.  The consequences of such act are hardly rocket science, why in  the world would she agree to that madness if she didn't agree the world was about to end if not?? Why would she ever acceot that Lyanna was the other mother?? 

 

Being a medieval wife, was she in a position to say such a thing to her husband the Crown Prince?

Anyway... perhaps she believed what her husband believed (it wouldn't be so strange), or she may have simply believed that her husband "knew better" - because that was more or less the attitude expected from wives. But it's also possible that she didn't believe in the prophecy at all or didn't care. Actually we don't know whether she was or was not "a resigned woman doing her duty". We know her health was frail, and we cannot exclude the possibility that she was more ill than we have been told, and was therefore more passive than a healthy woman would have been. Or maybe she was sending ravens to her brothers all the time, complaining about Rhaegar, but as far as I remember, there is no indication in the books that her brothers tried to do anything about the problem. We do have at least some indication though that Rhaegar discussed the three heads of the dragon with her. And it's curious that Rhaegar and Lyanna were hiding in Dorne of all places. It just doesn't add up with the image of the angry in-laws in the background. One tries to make sense of every little detail we have... but,of course, it's also possible that hiding in Dorne of all places does not mean anything.

As for the war, I don't think we have to assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna were expecting a war to break out at the time. Conflict, obviously, but a war that would wipe out the dynasty? I'm not at all sure about that. It's easy to be wise in retrospect, but we don't even know how things exactly happaned, much less what plans there had been, what exactly went wrong and how. Until we know more, I will give them the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming that they expected a war to break out and didn't care. 

As for why Elia would accept Lyanna as the other mother... Well, perhaps she didn't. For all we know, she might have been screaming with anger about it until she died. But it is also possible that she accepted what she couldn't change (as Cat accepted the presence of Jon in Winterfell) and was waiting for future opportunities. She herself couldn't be the mother of the third head without risking her life, so some compromise was necessary, that's all. People are sometimes (often?) forced into a compromise, where they have to accept something they don't like, even in real life. It doesn't mean that they will remain passive afterwards or that they won't be able to make new decisions later.

16 hours ago, frenin said:

And well, she could always let Rhaegar fall as long as her son get to inherit, unless ofc she believed Rhaegar would simply fuck her to death, but if not, no neither she was obliged to follow Rhaegar not that was, not by a longshot, the wisest option for her,

Well, if you think it was wiser for her to start a war (in either a literal or a metaphorical sense) against Rhaegar, we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

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Doubtful that may explain, narratively why a seemigly great guy was forced to chose the dumbest route, but doesn't mean that Elia would've to be ok with any of it. Because there are multiple, multiple, multiple, choices for Rhaegar, why pick the worst possible?? And one  that absolutely endangers Elia's kids??

Oh, I didn't say she "had to". I was merely pondering the possibilities. But, once we take it as a fact that Rhaegar thought the dragon needed a third head and that Elia couldn't give it to him unless she was literally killed, what were the multiple, multiple choices for Rhaegar?

I can see one, which was keeping quiet about the warning regarding Elia's health and forcing her to have a third child, then, when she dies, saying "Oh, I'm so sorry, who would have thought?" I understand why neither Rhaegar, nor Elia would have wanted to choose this road though. 

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Then i disagree. It's exactly the same act but we are reinterpreting it afterwards.

Ofc that what Dany did was craziness and suicidal and ofc Dany was desperate enough to no give a damn but that's the point, if Stannis actually have gotten stone dragons, he'd be a zealot that killed his own nephew to gain the Throne, 

Dany may have been crazy and suicidal, but she didn't simply kill herself in a way to make sure that she would definitely die (for which a dagger would have sufficed). She had a plan. It was a risky plan, a plan based on magic, but a plan that she thought could result in her survival. But she didn't just hope that some magic would occur to save her, she based her plan on her understanding of how the magic could work and acted accordingly. That's probably a huge difference between her and the Brightflame guy. Dany's story shows that in this world, magic is a tool that can work and can be used even if it requires much more skill and caution than using a hammer, for example. 

As for Stannis, you are obviously making a moral judgement here. Killing an innocent boy, with or without magic and regardless of whether the magic works or not, for personal gain is morally wrong. In this sense, it doesn't matter whether you are acting on a prophecy or on scientific political analysis. 

So, if, by a zealot, you mean a person who strongly believes in nonsense such as magic and prophecies etc., then I will say that in my opinion this definition does not work in the world of ASOIAF, as in this world magic is a reality to reckon with. Failing to do so may be a grave mistake (cf. the White Walkers or the return of the dragons). 

If, by a zealot, you mean a person who strongly believes in something (anything) and / or goes to extremes to pursue a goal, then I think pragmatic Tywin is as much a zealot as Stannis or Mel. (And Stannis is not the same kind of zealot as Mel, because Mel believes in the Red God, on the one hand, and in Stannis being AA, on the other hand, while Stannis simply believes in the idea that he must win the Iron Throne.) Qhorin is also a zealot, that's what makes him willing to sacrifice himself, and even Ned is a zealous champion of the protection of children. 

Was Rhaegar a prophecy zealot? He may have been. But that in itself does not mean that acting on the prophecy was stupid or wrong. On the other hand, we can see that while he was quite willing to adjust his own life to the prophecy, he didn't go as far as sacrificing Elia's life. You know, a Tywin-like or Stannis-like or Melisandre-like zealot (cf. AA-ideal) would have had no problem sacrificing the wife to get the required third head of the dragon. Instead, Rhaegar decided to find another option. And that's one reason why I don't believe he foresaw a devastating war that was exclusively the result of his own choices and didn't care. If he wasn't willing to sacrifice Elia's life, why would he have been willing to risk so many lives, including the lives of those near and dear to him?  

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The difference here is rather striking. Dany acted intuitively and was, of course, seen as quite mad at the time. One could even say she was mad because she had no rational reason to believe this could work.

But she didn't act exclusively on intuition. She had learned about magic through her ordeal with MMD, it was that and her intuition that she used.  

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However, having a strong inner feeling/conviction that something is going to work is a more direct, more immediate motivation to act than the (re-)interpretation of an obscure prophecy which you have no reason to believe is actually genuine/becoming true. That's scholars sitting at a desk and thinking themselves clever because they do understand the subtleties of High Valyrian (or whatever language the prophecy was written in). We see how this kind of thing goes very wrong for our good Cersei, and Rhaegar clearly went down a similar road to doom and destruction (if he acted with the intention to fulfill prophecy - which we don't yet know). His own conviction that he himself and/or his children were destined to fulfill the prophecy is clearly hubris and presumption considering that the prophecy setting down who would bring forth the promised prince (the bloodline of Aerys II and Rhaella) didn't mention him or the time when this was to happen. It could be Rhaegar's grandchildren or great-grandchildren for all he knew (to our knowledge at this point) or children of his younger siblings, one of which was already born when Rhaegar started to believe his son Aegon was the promised prince.

It depends on what knowledge Rhaegar acted on (which may have been more than just the words of a single prophecy), and that's something we don't know. He may have studied various sources before he concluded that he had something to do. Cersei is totally different, as she tried to prevent a prophecy from coming true, a prophecy which was formulated without any conditions, and she definitely didn't try to understand how prophecies work, which Rhaegar may have done. 

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True prophecy/real prophecy doesn't need some guy ensuring it is going to come true - that's the core mistake in Mel's actions, and, it seems, also in Rhaegar's. He meant well, but he ruined everything for himself, Lyanna, his family and a lot of people in the Seven Kingdoms.

True prophecy just comes true. And if there is a true prophecy about you you don't have to read it and deliberately try to fulfill it - it will just become true. Period.

 

Perhaps. But a prophecy can be formulated with a condition ("If..."), and we don't know the exact wording of this one. It's fair to assume that there must have been something that prompted Rhaegar to act.

In the case of Mel, she may be trying to fulfill a prophecy, or she may be simply thinking that the prophecy itself is literally fulfilled, because AA has been reborn, and now she is trying to help him with the rest. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Elia didn't fit into the R+L relationship. Elsewise she would of been there with them and benefited from the protection of Dayne and Hightower and Whent.

Frustratingly, we simply do not have enough information to make and certain judgements. All we know is,

Oberyn is aiming his revenge at the Lannisters and not the Targaryens. Dany sees a vision of Rhaegar and Elia where Rhaegar explicitly states that 'there must be one more' so we could speculate that Elia at the very least knew what Rhaegar was doing. But what we cannot say is that she was willing or complicit. We only know that she was in a very weakened state. For some, that would be reason for Rhaegar to be more attentive and remain by her side. For others, it's cause to afford him the freedom to make another child with another woman. It is messy. It does look bad. 

We can hope that Howland Reed has some answers. But I suspect Doran knows more than we realise. Until there's a reveal, I think readers are free to project their own views onto the situation. My personal opinion is that Lyanna wanted an escape. Rhaegar wanted another child. And Elia wanted peace and safety for herself and her family. I suspect the three of them, in their own way, foolishly thought they could do this without the 7K around them going up in flames.