What do people think about Rhaegar?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

I’ve met loads of guys who act all depressed and sing sad songs and prey on teenage girls, they’re rarely actually good people, although relatively harmless. But then most stop short at having a public affair or possibly kidnapping

This isn't really the story though is it? We don't know the story in it's entirety so it's hard to say he was a man who acted all depressed & preyed on a teenage girl. 

[frenin]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Holding grudges or no you would think a man that abducted, raped, & cause the death of his sister he would have some negative feelings towards. But then again Aerys killed his father & brother in a horrific manner & he isn't seething with hatred for him either. 

I think the most likely reason Ned doesn't think on it much is because it would give too much away. 

We see Ned holding grudges over the Lannisters for almost 2 decades And he went to his grave wanting to see Jorah dead.

Ned is more than capable of hating, that he does not do it in this case imo, is fue both father & son innocence (Aerys did nothing wrong folks) or more likely because Ned's the kind of guy who doesn't hate dead people. As far as he knows, both Rhaegar and  Aerys downfalls is enough punishment. The Targs lost everything for crossing him, they were crushed in battle and  later  slaughtered or became exiles, think that's enough.

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This isn't really the story though is it? We don't know the story in it's entirety so it's hard to say he was a man who acted all depressed & preyed on a teenage girl. 

haha omg now I just don't get the thought of emo Rhaegar playing his harp out of my mind again - lol. But from what we heard about Lyanna I kinda doubt she would have fallen for a guy like this. Just can't see "depressed" being her type.

[frenin]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

haha omg now I just don't get the thought of emo Rhaegar playing his harp out of my mind again - lol. But from what we heard about Lyanna I kinda doubt she would have fallen for a guy like this. Just can't see "depressed" being her type.

Well, you know the say about opposites right??

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

We see Ned holding grudges over the Lannisters for almost 2 decades And he went to his grave wanting to see Jorah dead

Well, then wouldn't he be holding grudges against the man who has kidnapped & raped his sister if that's what he believed?

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ned is more than capable of hating, that he does not do it in this case imo, is fue both father & son innocence (Aerys did nothing wrong folks) or more likely because Ned's the kind of guy who doesn't hate dead people. As far as he knows, both Rhaegar and  Aerys downfalls is enough punishment. The Targs lost everything for crossing him, they were crushed in battle and  later  slaughtered or became exiles, think that's enough.

I don't find the argument that Ned suddenly loses all negative feelings for someone when they die. & you just said you didn't understand the correlation between Ned not thinking of Rhaegar negatively leading to Rhaegar not being the bad guy but now say it was Rhaegar is innocent? 

Also, whether you think Aerys did something wrong (something quite a few people disagree with) doesn't mean Ned would agree. 

Even though they lost everything his loved ones are still gone. Maybe he doesn't hold any hard feelings for them & I think Rhaegar probably is innocent but I still believe the reason we don't get much of Ned's feelings on them is because it would reveal too much. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

22 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

haha omg now I just don't get the thought of emo Rhaegar playing his harp out of my mind again - lol. But from what we heard about Lyanna I kinda doubt she would have fallen for a guy like this. Just can't see "depressed" being her type.

Haha yeah for sure. 

[frenin]

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, then wouldn't he be holding grudges against the man who has kidnapped & raped his sister if that's what he believed?

Nope, he's long dead.

 

8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't find the argument that Ned suddenly loses all negative feelings for someone when they die. & you just said you didn't understand the correlation between Ned not thinking of Rhaegar negatively leading to Rhaegar not being the bad guy but now say it was Rhaegar is innocent? 

Suddenly?? Unlikely, over 15 years?? More likely, I'm saying that Ned has no reason to hate them, 15 years later after everything they suffered for wrong him.

As i said there a two logic outcomes for Ned not hating those two, either that as some want to believe he did not believe Rhaegar did nothing wrong but that clash with the notion that Aerys did something horrible to Ned.

And giving that we know Ned's capable of hating for a long time, that Ned simply let it go over the years because it made no sense of hating dead people, realistically, Ned's the one who should react like Robert every time someone mentions the word Targ, but Ned is the one saying that that hatred was madness in Robert. 

 

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Also, whether you think Aerys did something wrong (something quite a few people disagree with) doesn't mean Ned would agree. 

 

And still Ned doesn't hate him, he pities him.

 

[...] Littlefinger smiled. "Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity—and where better for it than here—I hold the man's balls in the palm of my hand." He cupped his fingers, smiling. "Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. Were I you, I would worry more about the Lannisters and less about the eunuch."
Ned did not need Littlefinger to tell him that. He was thinking back to the day Arya had been found, to the look on the queen's face when she said, We have a wolf, so soft and quiet. He was thinking of the boy Mycah, of Jon Arryn's sudden death, of Bran's fall, of old mad Aerys Targaryen dying on the floor of his throne room while his life's blood dried on a gilded blade

 

"War?" The fear was plain on Catelyn's face.
"It will not come to that," Ned promised her, praying it was true. He took her in his arms again. "The Lannisters are merciless in the face of weakness, as Aerys Targaryen learned to his sorrow,

 

That's not the thoughts and words you should've for someone who brutally murdered your father and elder brother.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 Even though they lost everything his loved ones are still gone. Maybe he doesn't hold any hard feelings for them & I think Rhaegar probably is innocent but I still believe the reason we don't get much of Ned's feelings on them is because it would reveal too much. 

 

Meta level that's obvious i think, but there has to be a reason in world that works too. People are free to believe what they want, but with this argument in particular, what works for the son, works for the father.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Suddenly?? Unlikely, over 15 years?? More likely, I'm saying that Ned has no reason to hate them, 15 years later after everything they suffered for wrong him

You didn't say he has stopped feeling & thinking negatively about them because it has been so long. You said he doesn't hold grudges against the dead - which does imply that when someone dies he, all of a sudden (upon their death) stops hating them - which just isn't how things work. 

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

As i said there a two logic outcomes for Ned not hating those two, either that as some want to believe he did not believe Rhaegar did nothing wrong but that clash with the notion that Aerys did something horrible to Ned.

Yes so really the two possible reasons that he doesn't think negatively about these men are 1. They both did wrong, in Ned's eyes but he just doesn't dwell on it, has let it go over the years etc. or 2. We aren't privvy to Ned's thoughts on the matter because GRRM did not want to reveal these things. 

It cannot be that neither did anything wrong because we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Aerys did wrong. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

And giving that we know Ned's capable of hating for a long time, that Ned simply let it go over the years because it made no sense of hating dead people, realistically, Ned's the one who should react like Robert every time someone mentions the word Targ, but Ned is the one saying that that hatred was madness in Robert. 

Maybe but we don't have any evidence that Ned just doesn't think it makes sense to hate dead people. It's possible he has just moved past it after all this time. 

Aerys & Rhaegar were dead not very long after they wronged Ned. Do you think he stopped feeling ill towards them in that moment, simply because they were dead & it doesn't make sense to hate dead people? I don't think so. I think he either moved past it or we just don't get to see much on his feelings towards either one. 

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

And still Ned doesn't hate him, he pities him.

Pitying someone is not necessarily a positive feeling to have toward someone. You can pity & hate someone at the same time.  At any rate I don't think the quotes show he pities Aerys at all. He is pointing out wrongs committed by Lannisters. Whether he hated Aerys or not he is not one to think highly of a KG member killing his King. 

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's not the thoughts and words you should've for someone who brutally murdered your father and elder brother.

But he did brutally murder his brother & father & Ned does have those thoughts. Are you saying that the story we are told of Aerys killing Brandon & Rickard is untrue?

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

Meta level that's obvious i think, but there has to be a reason in world that works too. People are free to believe what they want, but with this argument in particular, what works for the son, works for the father.

Right well that's what I'm saying. It should work in world also but that doesn't mean we shouldn't question the true intention behind it. In world it can work because people forgive things over time, it's not in the forefront of their mind anymore, it doesn't eat away at them like it used to. Of course this isn't the case with everyone but it's a fairly normal way to process trauma. It's quite possible that Ned has never hated Rhaegar because he never did anything wrong & did hate Aerys for what he did but has moved on from it & doesn't think about it like he used to. 

[frenin]

On 1/21/2020 at 6:23 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You didn't say he has stopped feeling & thinking negatively about them because it has been so long. You said he doesn't hold grudges against the dead - which does imply that when someone dies he, all of a sudden (upon their death) stops hating them - which just isn't how things work. 

I thought it was obvious, but  if not my bad. 

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 6:23 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes so really the two possible reasons that he doesn't think negatively about these men are 1. They both did wrong, in Ned's eyes but he just doesn't dwell on it, has let it go over the years etc. or 2. We aren't privvy to Ned's thoughts on the matter because GRRM did not want to reveal these things. 

It cannot be that neither did anything wrong because we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Aerys did wrong. 

Which is why i believe option 1.

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 6:23 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe but we don't have any evidence that Ned just doesn't think it makes sense to hate dead people. It's possible he has just moved past it after all this time. 

Aerys & Rhaegar were dead not very long after they wronged Ned. Do you think he stopped feeling ill towards them in that moment, simply because they were dead & it doesn't make sense to hate dead people? I don't think so. I think he either moved past it or we just don't get to see much on his feelings towards either one. 

On that i agree, i believe that Ned is not the kind of man to hate death people, especially if in his eyes, they were punished for their actions. But you're right when you say that we don't have any evidence for it.

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 6:23 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Pitying someone is not necessarily a positive feeling to have toward someone. You can pity & hate someone at the same time.  At any rate I don't think the quotes show he pities Aerys at all. He is pointing out wrongs committed by Lannisters. Whether he hated Aerys or not he is not one to think highly of a KG member killing his King. 

True but if you extremely hate someone, you are hardly capable to allow any other feeling in, I think that the phrase "as Aerys Targ learnt for his sorrow"is def pity.

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 6:23 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But he did brutally murder his brother & father & Ned does have those thoughts. Are you saying that the story we are told of Aerys killing Brandon & Rickard is untrue?

Maybe as some in this forum want to believe Brandon and Rickard were plotting to bring Cthulhu to Westeros and brave Aerys  stopped that madness while the wicked Jon Arryn used that as a pretext to betray his King and Ned is ashamed of a Rebellion that was based on a lie.

No, i simply believe that Ned let it go.  But if people believe that Ned not  thinking bad of someone who wronged him=innocence...

 

On 1/21/2020 at 6:23 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right well that's what I'm saying. It should work in world also but that doesn't mean we shouldn't question the true intention behind it. In world it can work because people forgive things over time, it's not in the forefront of their mind anymore, it doesn't eat away at them like it used to. Of course this isn't the case with everyone but it's a fairly normal way to process trauma. It's quite possible that Ned has never hated Rhaegar because he never did anything wrong & did hate Aerys for what he did but has moved on from it & doesn't think about it like he used to. 

But Rhaegar did things wrong, best case scenario. He and Lyanna eloped together and that almost cost him everything. None of Rhaegar's actions should be forgivable in Ned's mind and all of them caused him sorrow or shame.

But then again, saying that Rhaegar must be innocent because Ned does not have any ill  feelings against him, it's absurd on the time being.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

45 minutes ago, frenin said:

I thought it was obvious, but  if not my bad. 

No worries, I understand now.

45 minutes ago, frenin said:

Which is why i believe option 1

It's definitely possible. 

45 minutes ago, frenin said:

On that i agree, i believe that Ned is not the kind of man to hate death people, especially if in his eyes, they were punished for their actions. But you're right when you say that we don't have any evidence for it.

Yeah for sure, I can't see Ned carrying it with him like Robert. 

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

True but if you extremely hate someone, you are hardly capable to allow any other feeling in, I think that the phrase "as Aerys Targ learnt for his sorrow"is def pity.

That is true. I don't know if I still would call it pity but I agree if he had some raging hatred for him he probably wouldn't be able to be reasonable about it. 

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Maybe as some in this forum want to believe Brandon and Rickard were plotting to bring Cthulhu to Westeros and brave Aerys  stopped that madness while the wicked Jon Arryn used that as a pretext to betray his King and Ned is ashamed of a Rebellion that was based on a lie.

HAHA! Well I guess we don't know for sure. I certainly hope not though LOL 

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

But Rhaegar did things wrong, best case scenario. He and Lyanna eloped together and that almost caused him everything. None of Rhaegar's actions should be forgivable in Ned's mind and all of them caused him sorrow or shame.

But then again, saying that Rhaegar must be innocent because Ned does not have any ill  feelings against him, it's absurd on the time being.

Oh yeah, absolutely either way Rhaegar did things wrong but I disagree that none of his actions should be forgivable in Ned's mind. If Ned has the whole story or enough of the story he may be understanding of the actions depending on what the story is. I can't speak for everyone but when I say maybe Rhaegar is innocent I don't mean he is innocent of everything - like you said, best case scenario he eloped with Lyanna & caused a lot of issues. What I mean is that he is innocent of kidnap & rape. I think it's hard to imagine a man (Ned) not having ill feelings toward a man that kidnapped & raped his sister but as you pointed out he doesn't have any particularly negative thoughts toward the man that murdered his father & brother either so, I agree with you - Ned's feelings don't say much in regards to Rhaegar's actions. 

I do think probably Rhaegar didn't kidnap & rape Lyanna but for other reasons than Ned's lack of negative thoughts on Rhaegar. 

[The Wolves]

He was the only one that saw Aerys as a unstable king and wanted to do something about it for the good of the people. I think he wanted to do right by Westeros’ people and for that I like him. 

[Platypus Rex]

Rhaegar is an enlightened fellow whose enlightened wife has no problem with his having sex with teenage girls, as long as it's in a good cause.  Which it is.  The prophesy says so, an the prophesy will justify his actions.  That's the fantasy that I suspect is being presented to us.

Which is a load of horse-crap, IMHO.  But I accept that it is the horse-crap that GRRM probably intends.  Unless he surprises me.  And if he does, then good for him!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Rhaegar is an enlightened fellow whose enlightened wife has no problem with his having sex with teenage girls, as long as it's in a good cause.  Which it is.  The prophesy says so, an the prophesy will justify his actions.  That's the fantasy that I suspect is being presented to us.

Which is a load of horse-crap, IMHO.  But I accept that it is the horse-crap that GRRM probably intends.  Unless he surprises me.  And if he does, then good for him!

Not a very good outlook for a series you enjoy. 

[Platypus Rex]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not a very good outlook for a series you enjoy. 

My outlook is fine.  As is my enjoyment.

If Rhaegar gets what he deserves, he will be exposed as a villain and a fool.  But I don't expect that to happen, so I won't be disappointed if/when it does not happen.  Too-high expectations are not a problem for me.  Not on this point anyhow.

[Arthur Peres]

It's fair to say that my opinion of him is pretty low.

From his description he sounds very dull boring and selfish, the people that are his fanboys like Cersei or Jon Connington, seems to either never talked with him or not understand him, so the only think that he had going for him was his pretty face.

His actions are even worst, the treatment of Elia is pretty gross, leaving her bed ridden with kids to be a hostage of his crazy father, knighting the Mountain seems absurd, the man is everything a knight should not be, the dealing with the aftermatch of Lyanna's situation couldn't be worst.

He got what he deserved at the Trident.

[The Jingo]

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

He was the only one that saw Aerys as a unstable king and wanted to do something about it for the good of the people. I think he wanted to do right by Westeros’ people and for that I like him. 

Everyone saw Aerys was unstable and wanted to do something about him. The Tourney at Harrenhal was basically for the express purpose of providing a meeting grounds for these discontented lords, except Aerys got wind and attended himself.

At the Tourney Rhaegar caught sight of Lyanna and all his plans to dethrone Aerys went up in smoke, since apparently his number one priority had shifted from saving the realm to running away to hide in a loveshack with his cousin's betrothed.

[SilverGhost]

Rhaeger was complex and convinced that he was the hero, or the herald of the hero, of a story greater than himself, his marriage, his kingdom. He had great qualities and was respected and well liked for them but he had his own human flaws that dragged him down. I think that he was too far above it all, that he was convinced that destiny was on his side but forgot that others had their own desires, goals, and feelings. His head was above human concerns and he was unable to see the cracks widening beneath his feet.

As for his reputation among those who remember him - well he died in battle in during the prime of his life, his story a romantic one to those sympathetic to him. He never lived to become a monster, never had to deal with always living in the shadow of one moment of greatness like Robert, and never lived to become a drunken bitter king or a paranoid madman with a fetish for fire. He represents great days before the upheaval of Robert's Rebellion when the Realm was at peace and he is a figure safe to associate with those good memories rather than Icy Tywin Lannister who sacked King's Landing or the Mad King.

[Varysfirstofhisname]

I really dislike the character of Rhaegar because I don't see a satisfying way to correlate his actions (and alleged actions) with the POV accounts of his character.  I'm aware of the theories, but it all seems terribly unsatisfying.  

TBH I am hoping GRRM reveals that he's not as great of a guy as he's made out to be.  If he retconned some plausible explanation for his actions that truly made him into the tragic, charming hero it would just seem cheap.  

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, The Jingo said:

Everyone saw Aerys was unstable and wanted to do something about him. The Tourney at Harrenhal was basically for the express purpose of providing a meeting grounds for these discontented lords, except Aerys got wind and attended himself.

At the Tourney Rhaegar caught sight of Lyanna and all his plans to dethrone Aerys went up in smoke, since apparently his number one priority had shifted from saving the realm to running away to hide in a loveshack with his cousin's betrothed.

The great Lords didn’t care that Aerys was mad. As long as it didn’t touch their kingdoms than Aerys could do what he wanted, and he did until he pissed off a bunch of Lords. 
 

There is no evidence that the Lords at the Harrenhal tourney was trying to meet in secret to take down Aerys. This is just speculation that hasn’t been confirmed. 

[The Jingo]

10 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

The great Lords didn’t care that Aerys was mad. As long as it didn’t touch their kingdoms than Aerys could do what he wanted, and he did until he pissed off a bunch of Lords. 
 

There is no evidence that the Lords at the Harrenhal tourney was trying to meet in secret to take down Aerys. This is just speculation that hasn’t been confirmed. 

Of course the lords cared that he was mad. The very fact that he was mad means that he may at any point get it into his head to do something undesirable to their kingdoms. Some lords might not be clever enough to figure it out, but any lord that was even moderately cautious would be worried about his wild excesses.

And the rumor that Rhaegar funded the Tourney is written about in The World of Ice and Fire. It's rumor in the same way that it's rumor that Rhaenyra's first three sons were bastards. It's not proven without a doubt, but it certainly fits.