What do people think about Rhaegar?

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

From his description he sounds very dull boring and selfish,

I remember show Barri  B saying that they got too  drunk one night, i laughed my ass off  with that, but yes. No blood running through his veins so far, not really fond of him. Show Rhaegar is funny tho. But then again, show Robert>>>>>Book  Robert.

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I remember show Barri  B saying that they got too  drunk one night, i laughed my ass off  with that, but yes. No blood running through his veins so far, not really fond of him. Show Rhaegar is funny tho. But then again, show Robert>>>>>Book  Robert.

Show Robert seems the funny drunk uncle we all have, not really a guy you want close to children, but he is fun to be around... Book Robert seems like the depressed has been guy that keep talking about his little moment.

So yeah Show Robert >>>Book Robert.

I also liked show Cersei much more than book Cersei... until season 7 came in.

[Lollygag]

I try to remain open-minded for the lack of information, but I can't.

He ditched his wife and kids leaving them with Aerys of all people and then hooked up with a girl about half his age and just this side of puberty. Tyrion calls Sansa a child at 13 and Illyrio and Viserys both side-eye Drago for being into 13 year old Dany. Rhaegar did what Tyrion, Illyrio, and Viserys consider pedophilia and I agree with them all.

To make it worse, after knowing better because his wife was in such danger from having more children, he knocks up a kid when having a child at that age is much more dangerous and with Lyanna even more so because she was so skinny (no hips).

He also failed to contain Aerys because he was playing with a harp or something.

This series is consistently pretty grim on the subject of singers and also for mature guys trying to get with a child who just "flowered" so I'm not expecting to learn much that will change my opinion.

 

[corbon]

On 1/20/2020 at 6:35 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So seeing a couple discussions, I wonder, what do people here think about Rhaegar?

Think?

Almost nobody here actually thinks about him. They react, they assume, they judge, but actual thought is very very rare on this particular subject.

Part of the problem is that we have some quite contradictory information (well, some of it is supposition, rather than information) about him. Most people assume one thing, and then ignore or discount whatever information contradicts that thing. Others assume a particular stance rigidly without examining alternatives to that stance that make known data fit better.

Rhaegar is possibly one of the most emotive subjects - as much or more as most of the living characters, almost certainly the most emotive character who is long dead.

 

What do I think? Lets look at the sources...

I think Barristan is not the sharpest tack, but is a solid source who actually knew and lived around Rhaegar and doesn't seem to have any particular bias for or against him.

Quote

"It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings."

 

Quote

 

"King," Dany corrected. "He was a king, though he never reigned. Viserys, the Third of His Name. But what do you mean?" His answer had not been one that she'd expected. "Ser Jorah named Rhaegar the last dragon once. He had to have been a peerless warrior to be called that, surely?"

"Your Grace," said Whitebeard, "the Prince of Dragonstone was a most puissant warrior, but . . ."

 

Quote

Dany turned back to the squire. "I know little of Rhaegar. Only the tales Viserys told, and he was a little boy when our brother died. What was he truly like?"

The old man considered a moment. "Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded. There is a tale told of him . . . but doubtless Ser Jorah knows it as well.

Quote

"As you wish," said Whitebeard. "As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

Quote

"Perhaps so, Your Grace." Whitebeard paused a moment. "But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy."
...
"Not sour, no, but . . . there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense . . ." The old man hesitated again.
...
". . . of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days."

Quote

"Not now," she agreed. "One day. One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad. There is some good to be said of my father, surely?"

"There is, Your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, your mother . . . and Rhaegar. Him most of all."

"I wish I could have known him." Her voice was wistful.

Quote

"Her duty." The word felt cold upon her tongue. "You saw my brother Rhaegar wed. Tell me, did he wed for love or duty?"

The old knight hesitated. "Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her."

Quote

If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue.

It was his failures that haunted him at night, though. Jaehaerys, Aerys, Robert. Three dead kings. Rhaegar, who would have been a finer king than any of them.

Quote

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

Barristan gives us a picture of a melancholy, dutiful, highly intelligent, highly skilled man who put his duty to others and to the realm above himself. Even his marriage was for duty. Barristan thinks he would have been an excellent king, capable of healing the realm after Aerys' excesses and madness.
I note that Barristan, although he is often discussing Rhaegar with Dany, does not whitewash the Targaryen family. While he is careful to avoid telling Dany too much that would pain her to hear, he does not shower other Targaryens with the praise he reserves for Rhaegar.  
A assess Barristan as an excellent source (in this area), with personal knowledge and experience, but not having been part of Rhaegar's inner circle and (while showing care of Dany's feelings) not showing any signs of being a pro-Targ lickspittle.

From Jorah, we get the view of someone who fought against Rhaegar and for Robert both during the rebellion and afterward. Jorah is in love with Dany, yes, but he also spares no bones about Viserys' lack of qualities.
From Jorah we hear that Dany, when sparing the lamb women from rape, reminds Jorah of her brother Rhaegar. I don't think Jorah, despite being in Robert's army, thinks Rhaegar was a rapist.
We also hear that Rhaegar fought nobly, valiantly, honourably, but lost - the battle, the war, the kingdom, his life. Not over the top with admiration, but a respectful opinion it seems to me, even if perhaps marking Rhaegar as someone who fell short, despite (or because of!) his good points. 

Ned thinks Rhaegar was not a man to frequent brothels. I think Ned is a fairly neutral source - perhaps one would argue he should be a heavily biased source against Rhaegar, but there seems no evidence of that.

Jon Con and Robert, and to some extent Cersei, I consider massively biased sources (at opposite ends of the spectrum). I think the reasons here don't need going into.

 

Other facts?
He rarely competed in tourney's, but has an almost unmatched record when he does - only 3 tourneys we know of, many victories, only one loss to each of the 2 clearly premiere knights of his era (Dayne and Selmy) and 2 wins against each of those, undefeated by anyone else.
Although Robert is widely acknowledged as an unmatched fighter (as opposed to jouster), Rhaegar was good enough to wound him quite seriously (he couldn't participate in the pursuit), first, in their duel at the Trident, before Robert finished the battle with a single blow.

This data seems to me to fit with both Barristan's and  Jorah's thoughts.

Other suppositions?
He 'kidnapped' Lyanna, 'ran away and hid', and 'let the kingdom fall to pieces'.
He 'abandoned' his wife and kids.
"He pissed all over his responsibilities to run off with his teenage mistress"
I think these are full of unknowns,, overly simplistic, and utterly contrary to everything people who actually knew him seem to think - even after the fact.
Since its clear that these are not the judgments of, say, Ned, Jorah or Barristan, who lived through those times and know more than we do, and given the unknowns involved, i think that these idea are unlikely to be accurate. Possibly they are, in part or even completely, but I think they are interpretations of situations that don;t fit with the data we have. I can find alternative interpretations that do fit better with the data we have.

 

In summary?
I think Barristan gives us the most accurate picture. Intelligent, able, dutiful, sad, responsible, probably very lonely (which helps drawn in the girls with the sad songs - but to no effect because, duty...)
But, more information may yet come to light...


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

My outlook is fine.  As is my enjoyment.

If Rhaegar gets what he deserves, he will be exposed as a villain and a fool.  But I don't expect that to happen, so I won't be disappointed if/when it does not happen.  Too-high expectations are not a problem for me.  Not on this point anyhow.

How do we know he is a villain or a fool? 

[Ygrain]

Ah, good old bashing Rhaegar threads. Haven't seen one for a while.

[frenin]

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Barristan gives us a picture of a melancholy, dutiful, highly intelligent, highly skilled man who put his duty to others and to the realm above himself. Even his marriage was for duty. Barristan thinks he would have been an excellent king, capable of healing the realm after Aerys' excesses and madness.
I note that Barristan, although he is often discussing Rhaegar with Dany, does not whitewash the Targaryen family. While he is careful to avoid telling Dany too much that would pain her to hear, he does not shower other Targaryens with the praise he reserves for Rhaegar.  
A assess Barristan as an excellent source (in this area), with personal knowledge and experience, but not having been part of Rhaegar's inner circle and (while showing care of Dany's feelings) not showing any signs of being a pro-Targ lickspittle.

That's not the only picture Barri B gives us right?? Barri also gives us a picture where Rhaegar lost it...

 

Quote

"The tourney Lord Whent staged at Harrenhal beside the Gods Eye, in the year of the false spring. A notable event. Besides the jousting, there was a mêlée in the old style fought between seven teams of knights, as well as archery and axe-throwing, a horse race, a tournament of singers, a mummer show, and many feasts and frolics. Lord Whent was as open handed as he was rich. The lavish purses he proclaimed drew hundreds of challengers. Even your royal father came to Harrenhal, when he had not left the Red Keep for long years. The greatest lords and mightiest champions of the Seven Kingdoms rode in that tourney, and the Prince of Dragonstone bested them all."
"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"
"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."

Here is our good Barri B both biting his tongue to avoid  ranting on Rhaegar and subconsciously victim blaming Elia because he's unable to bring himself to say something good aout Rhaegar in that situation.  Even Rhaegar's n°1 fangirl can see the wrongness of his actions and Barri  B is unable to give  a good explanation for something  he neither does have a good explanation for nor he can bring himself to approve, is quite telling that Barri  B reaction  to this is victim blaming and change of subject.

And we can make a pretty good guess about what Barri B wants but can't rant about right??

 

Quote

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

From Jorah, we get the view of someone who fought against Rhaegar and for Robert both during the rebellion and afterward. Jorah is in love with Dany, yes, but he also spares no bones about Viserys' lack of qualities.
From Jorah we hear that Dany, when sparing the lamb women from rape, reminds Jorah of her brother Rhaegar. I don't think Jorah, despite being in Robert's army, thinks Rhaegar was a rapist.
We also hear that Rhaegar fought nobly, valiantly, honourably, but lost - the battle, the war, the kingdom, his life. Not over the top with admiration, but a respectful opinion it seems to me, even if perhaps marking Rhaegar as someone who fell short, despite (or because of!) his good points. 

Jorah is not only in love of Dany, Jorah is passing himself as a loyalist and that's why Dany has to discover the truth from Barri B, what is going to say an alledged loyalist to Rhaegar's nº1 fangirll?? And ofc he despises Viserys ,everyone despise Viserys. Jorah's famous words are clear, being good and noble is good but that's not always lead to victory.

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Ned thinks Rhaegar was not a man to frequent brothels. I think Ned is a fairly neutral source - perhaps one would argue he should be a heavily biased source against Rhaegar, but there seems no evidence of that.

 

One should think that Aerys occupies a special room in Ned's hell too and that's not true.

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Although Robert is widely acknowledged as an unmatched fighter (as opposed to jouster), Rhaegar was good enough to wound him quite seriously (he couldn't participate in the pursuit), first, in their duel at the Trident, before Robert finished the battle with a single blow.

 

Unlikely that he wounded Robert quite seriously, Robert arrived to KL soon after Ned and Aegn's and Rhaenys' bodies were still fresh by then, so Robert rode shortly after Ned marched. The most likely answer is that Robert's maester was tending  a near dead Barri B which would've taken some time, logic suggests that had Robert ever been as seriously wounded as some would want him to be, he'd be unable to reach KL that soon and people would notice it, Ned only says he took a wound and people fantasize over that.  Btw where it's said that Rhaegar wounded Robert first, second or last??

But as i said before, Robert could've won the fight, the battle, the war, the Kingdom and the Glory but there is something Rhaegar has and Robert will never, the single coolest name of all of them. The last dragon  is as badass as you can get and the ¿Baratheon? doesn't seem to have the same ring.

 

@Arthur Peres

Quote

Show Robert seems the funny drunk uncle we all have, not really a guy you want close to children, but he is fun to be around... Book Robert seems like the depressed has been guy that keep talking about his little moment.

 So yeah Show Robert >>>Book Robert.

I also liked show Cersei much more than book Cersei... until season 7 came in.

Show Robert is as depressed as the book one but funnier, besides his point abot Lyanna is always great, it highlights Robert both conscious and unconscious choice to embrace, bitterness, depression and everything else and make Lyanna the vessel of his broken dreams and dessillusions in life.

But yeah, show Rhaegar is a fun guy to be around, i laughed with Dany in that scene with Barri, book Rhaegar seems so miserable, so elvish... it doesn't help much that almost all we are told he did were fuck up after fuck up for guy allegedly so enlightened and brilliant.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Here is our good Barri B both biting his tongue to avoid  ranting on Rhaegar and subconsciously victim blaming Elia because he's unable to bring himself to say something good aout Rhaegar in that situation.  Even Rhaegar's n°1 fangirl can see the wrongness of his actions and Barri  B is unable to give  a good explanation for something  he neither does have a good explanation for nor he can bring himself to approve, is quite telling that Barri  B reaction  to this is victim blaming and change of subject.

It's actually Dany who suggests it was Elia's fault, I don't see Barristan's response as blaming her. He is simply aware that Rhaegar wasn't in love with her

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And we can make a pretty good guess about what Barri B wants but can't rant about right??

Yes, Barristan admits that thousands died because of Rhaegar's infatuation with Lyanna. Doesn't prevent him from thinking that Rhaegar would have been the finest king of those he knew. Perhaps because Rhaegar is only one in the line of those who chose love over duty.

[frenin]

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It's actually Dany who suggests it was Elia's fault, I don't see Barristan's response as blaming her. He is simply aware that Rhaegar wasn't in love with her

 

"Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"
"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."

 

Dany, who is uncapable of reconcile both narrative blames Elia and Barri B unable to say nothing better of Rhaegar in that situation talks about her health problems. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Yes, Barristan admits that thousands died because of Rhaegar's infatuation with Lyanna. Doesn't prevent him from thinking that Rhaegar would have been the finest king of those he knew. Perhaps because Rhaegar is only one in the line of those who chose love over duty.

Never claimed other thing especially since those kings he knew didn't set the bar so high even nearly everyone could be a finer king on that setting. As i said, @corbon left the other picture, that's all.

[corbon]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

That's not the only picture Barri B gives us right?? Barri also gives us a picture where Rhaegar lost it...

 

Here is our good Barri B both biting his tongue to avoid  ranting on Rhaegar and subconsciously victim blaming Elia because he's unable to bring himself to say something good aout Rhaegar in that situation.  Even Rhaegar's n°1 fangirl can see the wrongness of his actions and Barri  B is unable to give  a good explanation for something  he neither does have a good explanation for nor he can bring himself to approve, is quite telling that Barri  B reaction  to this is victim blaming and change of subject.

And we can make a pretty good guess about what Barri B wants but can't rant about right??

There's no indication of a "rant" being avoided there. 

Yes, he doesn't seem to understand it as a good thing, or a right thing, I'm fairly sure he doesn't understand it in fact. It seems at odds with what he knows of Rhaegar. Thats pretty much the point. 
I'm sure there are things Barristan knows about what happened more or better than us. Context especially, some small or side details probably. But Rhaegar didn't trust him and he wasn't part of Rhaegars's inner circle. I don't think Barristan really knows exactly what happened with Rhaegar, Lyanna and the start of the war.

Quote

Jorah is not only in love of Dany, Jorah is passing himself as a loyalist and that's why Dany has to discover the truth from Barri B, what is going to say an alledged loyalist to Rhaegar's nº1 fangirll?? And ofc he despises Viserys ,everyone despise Viserys. Jorah's famous words are clear, being good and noble is good but that's not always lead to victory.

Indeed. The point is, Jorah's not afraid to not say entirely good things to Dany about her family. Even about Rhaegar, he basically points out that in the end he was a loser.

Yet, all the personal things things he say about Rhaegar are positive, even off-handedly.  Its only the result where Rhaegar failed.

Quote

Unlikely that he wounded Robert quite seriously, Robert arrived to KL soon after Ned and Aegn's and Rhaenys' bodies were still fresh by then, so Robert rode shortly after Ned marched. The most likely answer is that Robert's maester was tending  a near dead Barri B which would've taken some time, logic suggests that had Robert ever been as seriously wounded as some would want him to be, he'd be unable to reach KL that soon and people would notice it, Ned only says he took a wound and people fantasize over that. 

Perhaps it wasn't all that serious. Perhaps you are right, people 'fantasize' over that. Perhaps thats just a reaction against the irrational anti-Rhaegar idiots who claim he was a useless git because he didn't beat Bobby B, the melee King - and all his other skills were made up, tourney victories faked, etc.
What the evidence is, is that Rhaegar wounded Robert, Robert required treatment by a maester after the battle and due to that wound gave the pursuit into Ned's hands 

Quote

"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him. "So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. 

Quote

The battle screamed about Lord Robert and Prince Rhaegar both, and by the will of the gods, or by chance—or perhaps by design—they met amidst the shallows of the ford. The two knights fought valiantly upon their destriers, according to all accounts. For despite his crimes, Prince Rhaegar was no coward. Lord Robert was wounded by the dragon prince in the combat, yet in the end, Baratheon's ferocious strength and his thirst to avenge the shame brought upon his stolen betrothed proved the greater. His warhammer found its mark, and Robert drove the spike through Rhaegar's chest, scattering the costly rubies that blazed upon the prince's breastplate.

 

Quote

Btw where it's said that Rhaegar wounded Robert first, second or last??

See above.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

18 minutes ago, corbon said:

The battle screamed about Lord Robert and Prince Rhaegar both, and by the will of the gods, or by chance—or perhaps by design—they met amidst the shallows of the ford. The two knights fought valiantly upon their destriers, according to all accounts. For despite his crimes, Prince Rhaegar was no coward. Lord Robert was wounded by the dragon prince in the combat, yet in the end, Baratheon's ferocious strength and his thirst to avenge the shame brought upon his stolen betrothed proved the greater. His warhammer found its mark, and Robert drove the spike through Rhaegar's chest, scattering the costly rubies that blazed upon the prince's breastplate.

This quote gives me goosebumps every time I read it!

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

"Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"
"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."

 

Dany, who is uncapable of reconcile both narrative blames Elia and Barri B unable to say nothing better of Rhaegar in that situation talks about her health problems. 

I sort of disagree with this, especially since we know his thoughts on the matter in ADwD. 

"It's not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace."

In his private thoughts, though, we do find out exactly what was in Rhaegar's heart. It just seems like him answering that Rhaegar was in love with another woman was not something he wanted to get into. Or GRRM didn't wanna get into it right then and there. It took 5 books to have confirmation that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

But Barristan does defend Elia by saying that she was a good and gracious lady, is him telling Dany indirectly that the woman was a good person and that Elia did not treat Rhaegar badly.

Her health being ever delicate could indicate Rhaegar's desire to perhaps have more children. Which makes Elia's delicate health important. We know that Elia was bedridden for half a year following the birth of Rhaenys and that Aegon's birth almost killed her and that she would not be able to have children after that.

I think this quote was an actual info dump. It's one of the hindsight quotes, imo.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

There's no indication of a rant being avoided there. 

Barri B is unable to tell Dany his thoughts about what Rhaegar pulled and instead of telling Dany his answer is,""It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart." Why do you think he does not give a straight answer there as he does inevery conversation he has with Dany about her family except when it goes to touchy subjects such as Aerys madness and Rhaegar's mistakes?? And instead of saying, no Elia didn't do anything he says, well Elia was a great girl a pity she was always so sickly, which is a running theme among all those who loved Rhaegar. Later on Barri B outright thinks that Rhaegar's love costed thhousands of lives, do you really believe that he would've told Dany that?? Because he had several opportunities, if not because Dany pointed out what Rhaegar did, he would've perfectly and gladly avoided the subject.

 

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Indeed. The point is, Jorah's not afraid to not say entirely good things to Dany about her family. Even about Rhaegar, he basically points out that in the end he was a loser.

Yet, all the personal things things he say about Rhaegar are positive, even off-handedly.  Its only the result where Rhaegar failed.

Does he now?? It's rather stricking that people have some cognitive dussonance when it comes to Aerys then. And even at the end,  Barri B is forced to tell the truth. Because  no, saying that Viseys is a failure is safe space.

You tell me how a loyalist would go over badmouthing Rhaegar to his sister, Jorah only does it once, when he believes Dany can make a serious mistake.

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Perhaps it wasn't all that serious. Perhaps you are right, people 'fantasize' over that. Perhaps thats just a reaction against the irrational anti-Rhaegar idiots who claim he was a useless giit because he didn't beat Bobby B, the melee King - and all his other skills were made up, tourney victories faked, etc.
What the evidence is is that Rhaegar wounded Robert, Robert required treatment by a maester after the battle and due to that wound gave the pursuit into Ned's hands 

1.  I didn't ask for evidence of Rhaegar wounding Robert, i know he did, this conversation wouldn't make sense if not. But you claimed that Rhaegar wounded Robert first. But my bad i red something you did not read. My apologies.
2. Fair enough, playing the devil's advocate, perhaps Robert was seriously, i doubt tho it's pretty unlikely he could've made the journey if so, but was capable of riding. But using him giving Ned the command of the van is pretty useless unless we're sur that Martin is messing with time and distance GoT style and giving what we know of the Robellion, that wouldn't be so unlikely. But then again, i really see no difference between people believing Rhaegar was a useless giit and people believing that honorable, nobl, valiant Rhaegar was somehow betrayed in the battle (My two favourites is that Rhaegar forgives Robert's life and then Robert kills him unawared and Rhaegar being too good for this world, seeing his incredibly superiority on horseback, decided to dismount and Robert killed him on foot), people gotta love with passion. There is no contradiction however, Robert's wounds were the reason for why Robert gave up the pursuit, but before he could make any decision, Barri B was brought  over him or right after he had made the decision old Barri was brought to him,  but what seems clear is that before Ned left, Barri B was brough to them,

 

 

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I sort of disagree with this, especially since we know his thoughts on the matter in ADwD. 

"It's not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace."

In his private thoughts, though, we do find out exactly what was in Rhaegar's heart. It just seems like him answering that Rhaegar was in love with another woman was not something he wanted to get into. Or GRRM didn't wanna get into it right then and there. It took 5 books to have confirmation that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

But Barristan does defend Elia by saying that she was a good and gracious lady, is him telling Dany indirectly that the woman was a good person and that Elia did not treat Rhaegar badly.

Her health being ever delicate could indicate Rhaegar's desire to perhaps have more children. Which makes Elia's delicate health important. We know that Elia was bedridden for half a year following the birth of Rhaenys and that Aegon's birth almost killed her and that she would not be able to have children after that.

I think this quote was an actual info dump. It's one of the hindsight quotes, imo.

No, Barri B is incapable to say Dany exactly what he thinks about the situation, which is Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands die for it, as Barri B knows that's simply a non answer, he directly dodges, I don't think it took it 5 books to get any confirmation, every loyalist claim that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, what is the other option for them?? Barri B does not tell us nothing new.

 

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

 

"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. "My death?" She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.

 

"When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one. I took an arrow through the thigh and another through the foot, and my horse was killed from under me, yet I fought on. I can still remember how desperate I was to find another horse, for I had no coin to buy one, and without a horse I would no longer be a knight. That was all that I was thinking of, if truth be told. I never saw the blow that felled me. I heard hooves behind my back and thought, a horse! but before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned.

 

Them again, it's Barri B the one saying that Rhaegar did not trust him all that much.

 

And no, Barri B did not defend Elia, he told the truth and use that truth again to dodge the blame her, it's not the first time someone who loves Rhaegar talks about her health. Her health's problems are entirely irrelevant on whether she treated him bad or not. 

Barri is not going to lie to Dany about her brother(s) and father, that's the opposite of his intention but he is going to spare her uncomfortable truths if it is within his power. The only way Barri B could've say otherwise would be outright lying.

He does with Rhaegar there and he does with Aerys here. I doubt any of those quotes are info dump, those info are used for a very specific purpose in both times.

 

"When the day comes that you raise your banners, half of Westeros will be with you," Whitebeard promised. "Your brother Rhaegar is still remembered, with great love."
"And my father?" Dany said.
The old man hesitated before saying, "King Aerys is also remembered. He gave the realm many years of peace. Your Grace, you have no need of slaves. Magister Illyrio can keep you safe while your dragons grow, and send secret envoys across the narrow sea on your behalf, to sound out the high lords for your cause."

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, Barri B is incapable to say Dany exactly what he thinks about the situation, which is Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands die for it, as Barri B knows that's simply a non answer, he directly dodges, I don't think it took it 5 books to get any confirmation, every loyalist claim that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, what is the other option for them?? Barri B does not tell us nothing new.

Every loyalist? Who are these loyalists, exactly? We have yet to hear from any of these so-called loyalists, including Jon Connington. 

As far as the quotes provided, the first quote is followed by the first Ned chapter where we're told that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. The second quote is still in the first book where things are ambiguous.

And the singers are singers. And there's the vision at the HotU, but visions are what they are.

Sure, the blocks were all there, but Barristan is the one confirms it. 

You can agree or disagree. It's nothing to me. 

[frenin]

8 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Every loyalist? Who are these loyalists, exactly? We have yet to hear from any of these so-called loyalists, including Jon Connington. 

As far as the quotes provided, the first quote is followed by the first Ned chapter where we're told that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. The second quote is still in the first book where things are ambiguous.

And the singers are singers. And there's the vision at the HotU, but visions are what they are.

Sure, the blocks were all there, but Barristan is the one confirms it. 

You can agree or disagree. It's nothing to me. 

Barristan and Dany who has to had heard the story from someone. 

As for the quotes, it's there a difference?? Barri B and Robert have different versiions of the story, is the story less true because of that. Barri B does not confirm anything that we did not know already, his claim is just one among many. The idea that Rhaegar loved her is not more likely because Barri thinks it.

Don't know about the attitude, if you don't want to discuss don't quote. But start and argument to then cover your ears is not very useful. You do this a lot, don't quote me then.

[Platypus Rex]

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

How do we know he is a villain or a fool? 

Well, assuming he is not a kidnapper and a rapist, as the surface story holds, then he is at least an adulterer and seducer, as per the popular theory.  So that takes care of the "villain" part.  And he is a fool because (apparently) he does it for a prophesy.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, assuming he is not a kidnapper and a rapist, as the popular theory holds, then he is at least an adulterer and seducer.  So that takes care of the "villain" part.  And he is a fool because (apparently) he does it for a prophesy.

We have no proof he is a seducer & it's possible he isn't an adulterer. If the prophecy being fulfilled saves mankind that doesn't make him a fool, it makes him a hero. 

[Platypus Rex]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We have no proof he is a seducer & it's possible he isn't an adulterer.

Sure.  Maybe it was Arthur Dayne who knocked her up.  But I wasn't considering that theory.

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If the prophecy being fulfilled saves mankind that doesn't make him a fool, it makes him a hero. 

It makes him a fool whose actions are validated by author fiat.  Any author can do this.  

[Arthur Peres]

9 hours ago, frenin said:

Unlikely that he wounded Robert quite seriously, Robert arrived to KL soon after Ned and Aegn's and Rhaenys' bodies were still fresh by then, so Robert rode shortly after Ned marched. The most likely answer is that Robert's maester was tending  a near dead Barri B which would've taken some time, logic suggests that had Robert ever been as seriously wounded as some would want him to be, he'd be unable to reach KL that soon and people would notice it, Ned only says he took a wound and people fantasize over that.  Btw where it's said that Rhaegar wounded Robert first, second or last??

 

I would go even further and say that if the wound was that grievious, Robert would not let his maester attend to Barristan first and would prioritize his own life, like anyone would.

Robert was also wounded before the battle of the bells and he was still capable of killing several knights and beating Jon Connington without even using his main weapon.

[Arthur Peres]

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

How do we know he is a villain or a fool? 

What's stopping him from being both? One could even add mad to the list.