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Alyn Oakenfist

What do people think about Rhaegar?

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Okay.  But why should I not count that as cheating on his wife? 

Because it isn't?
In a polygamous marriage, sleeping with one partner is not definitively cheating on the other. Thats an objective truth that needs to be accepted even if you don't find a polygamous marriage morally acceptable.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

I don't expect GRRM will portray Rhaegar as motivated by the madness of lust.

We agree.

 

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

The next in line to the throne, father of the next two in line to the throne, ran off with a 16 year old high lord's daughter promised to another high lord's son, and impregnated her, while the realm warred and burned. 

Did he? Is that the truth of it, or just one look at parts of it?

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

The text took care to make sure we know Lyanna wasn't happy with Robert's character, Lyanna falling in love and running off with a prince of contrasting character to escape her fate with Robert is not at all out of character.

She acted with courage and honour at Harrenhal. She showed care for her family's vassals.
She singled out Robert's infidelity as the character flaw that caused her issues.

Yet the narrative we are asked to believe is that she ran off with the married emo prince for her own happiness, ignoring her honour, her family honor, the deaths and destruction that followed etc etc. That she took no care of her own honour, no care that Rhaegar was married, no care for her family, no care for her family's vassals.
I think the narrative is flawed. 

 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

About that particular question, Dany asks for an opinion, how could he do that, and a fact, did the dornish woman treat him so ill??  Barri gives neither, loving Lyanna doesn't necessarily make a motivation for Rhaegar's actions, but it's the only motivation Barri knows about and it's the only motivation he can give to Dany, thatand his opinions about the matter, again, he gives neither.

Right. Because he doesn't know for sure the answer to the question. Dany is asking for truth, not guesses. He doesn't have it, and he knows it.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Elia's health was not relevant, at any rate you should answer to the questions?? Why could he do that?? Did his wife treat him so ill??

Quote

 

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"
"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."

 

Right. The actual question is why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna the QoLaB. Thats when Elia was there, and Rhaegar passed her by.

Barristan doesn't know why that happened. He really can't answer that fairly. He can only guess, and a guess is morally not good enough to paint someone harshly from. 
 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

By addressing her health problems he is shifting part of the blame on her,

No, he is not. That is a common, but morally and intellectually corrupt lie. Such lies are one of the biggest problems facing our societies today.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

If people ask me why if i cheated on you because you mistreat me and i'd answer, "well Corbon was an incredible person, super lovable, would never harm a fly, he snore like a bear tho". What do you think i'm doing?? It's not corrupting anything, it's what Barri is doing.

Thats not blaming me for snoring like a bear. Thats offering a possibility why you did what you did. The action and the blame for it, is not shifted from you to me just because you used it as a reason. Thats the morally and intellectual corrupt part of the idea.

Because its yourself commenting on your own motivations, thats a stronger line too. Its not so easy for Barristan to speak to Rhaegar's motivations

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Using a meta level argument to explain Barri's words it's a very  weak argument, Barri does not know that Rhaegar was desperate fir another kid, nor do we know either for that matter,

But he must know that Elia couldn't have more kids and its more than likely he knows something of the Dragon having three heads and Rhaegar's interest in prophecy.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Barri B clearly believes that it was Rhaegar's love to blame, on that situation, bringing Elia's health up only serves consciously and unconsciously one purpose. Lessening  Rhaegar's guilt on Dany's eyes, and more than likely his.

I don't think its remotely clear that he believes that Rhaegar's love was the blame, the whole story.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't really understand it at all, and the only thing he can think of, the only thing he can put it on, is that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. But he recognises that thats not the whole story, that that story doesn't fit with the Rhaegar he knew before and after the abduction.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

No it's not, it's as ludicrous.

The fight is described  only on horseback by Ned and Yandel, Robert does not have poor horseman skills and every melee starts on horseback.

 

I didn't say Robert had poor horsemanship skills, I said that Rhaegar was relatively better.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

 Especially i don't know where the idea of melees only afoot comes from, not the books and  certainly not real history, melees can be afoot, on horse, in boat etc.

I didn't say that melees are only afoot.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dany's visions are about the things that never were, and since no one seems recalling about the battle fought afoot, that scene is simply Dany's imagination. 

 

Are they?

Quote
Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .
Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

Seems to me that these are all mixed up. Some that were, some that never were, some that may be, some allegorical. I can;t see how you say that this one is a 'never was', especially given that it matches so closely.
I also can't see how you suggest that this was just Dany's imagination. These are visions shown to her by the Undying, not cut from her own imagination. Where did the blue flows growing in the ice wall come from? the corpse at the prow of a ship? These aren't her own thoughts and ideas, they are coming form outside her.

Yes, this is a vision from eth Undying that may be a true vision or may be a false one. Its not even provable that its Rhaegar dying. But I think there is enough there to count this as actual evidence, not Dany's own invention.
So I'll continue with ideas that best match all of the evidence.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Jorah's words are about that doing that does not assure you the win, not that he was somehow cheated.

Did I suggest anyone was cheated? Or did cheat?

 

As for the other points, in general, I am happy to let the discussion stand. people can make their on minds up, based on the evidence.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Both Viserys and Darry were there.

Some bits seemed to get lost in my last answer.

Neither Viserys nor Darry were there in truth. They were at KL after Rhaegar came back, sure. But Viserys was a child, not a terribly stable one, and Darry was merely Master of Arms at the Red Keep. I don't see either of them being close to Rhaegar at the time, to get any sort of understanding or feeling of what was going on with him or of what happened with Rhaegar through that pre-war situation..

And Darry died when Dany was still a little girl. Even if Darry did know more, she was never old enough to discuss these sorts of things with Darry.
Which leaves just Viserys... and enough said.

Barristan OTOH was one of the commanders Rhaegar would have had to work closely with eading up to the Trident. That doesn't mean Rhaegar would have confided in him, but it does mean that they would be together enough in order for Barristan to have some sort of a feel for Rhaegar's state of mind, and current character (given he already knew him from childhood) and possibly a few hints or clues that inform his understanding.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

 

Will he?? Tell all of them?? Will he tell her that she was born out of rape?? Unlikely, over time sure, he will start telling uncomfortable truths, all of them however...

Was she? By our standards, yes, but not by theirs. I would not be surprised if, given time and context, Barristan told Dany eventually that towards the end her father only visited her mother when he was at his worst and the visits were not pleasant for her. He wouldn't outright call it rape, but I could easily see him letting her know how it was.
But thats not where you jump in at when you are assessing the girl to see what coin side she was born with.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Barristan has defected the Baratheon to the Targs early on and he always loved them better anyways.

Did he? Seems to me he served Robert well and loyally and even with love - as much or more as he did any Targ before Dany. It was only when Joffrey threw him out that he switched sides, and even then he did it cautiously, testing Dany first.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And Barri admits that he never had Rhaegar trust, so why are we going to believe Rhaegar told him or if even he asked??

I don't know what Rhaegar told Barristan, if anything. But Barristan was there, in close contact, over a significant period of time. He has every opportunity to pick up much more than we know, without Rhaegar ever truly confiding in him.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Saying that Barristan is on both sides is disingenous, he's clearly a loyalist and he clearly liked  Rhaegar better., he's clearly more attached to one side better than other.

I think thats disingenuous.
Barristan is a loyalist to his oaths, his position, himself really, not any family. Yes, he clearly like Rhaegar better. That might just be because of character rather than family y'know?
He certainly had no problem with serving Robert, who killed Rhaegar, and he clearly wasn't close with Rhaegar. And he tested Dany, before he was willing to commit to her.

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14 minutes ago, corbon said:

Did he? Is that the truth of it, or just one look at parts of it?

She acted with courage and honour at Harrenhal. She showed care for her family's vassals.
She singled out Robert's infidelity as the character flaw that caused her issues.

Yet the narrative we are asked to believe is that she ran off with the married emo prince for her own happiness, ignoring her honour, her family honor, the deaths and destruction that followed etc etc. That she took no care of her own honour, no care that Rhaegar was married, no care for her family, no care for her family's vassals.
I think the narrative is flawed. 

Yes it is the truth of it unless you want to stray down the complete nonsense of R+L does not = J.

Robert's whoring was the issue, and that's an obvious massive difference to Rhaegar's type of infidelity that was particularly with her. But it is a measure of degree and so hypocritical none the less, not in the manner that would make the narrative unrealistic but in the manner that people often are. And Lyanna and her selfishness and hypocrisy will prove to be the example for our heroes to reject, Arya particularly.

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Just now, chrisdaw said:

Yes it is the truth of it unless you want to stray down the complete nonsense of R+L does not = J.

 

I don't think its the full truth of it, and I think R+L=J is one of, if not the, the surest theories out there.

I think that its an incomplete, one dimensional narrative that lacks most of the facts, all of the context, and may well have one or more particulars simply wrong.

We will see. :cheers:

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

Because it isn't?
In a polygamous marriage, sleeping with one partner is not definitively cheating on the other.

Actually it's worse, in my view.  It is an even bigger betrayal of one's original spouse.

Someone once said, long ago, when the phrase "free love" was still in vogue, "There is no such thing as free love; you are either a tied man or a traitor".  I agree with that; and I think it remains true if you substitute "polygamy" for "free love".  Ditto if you substitute "open marriage".

Quote

Thats an objective truth that needs to be accepted even if you don't find a polygamous marriage morally acceptable.

Why are your moral opinions "objective" and mine not?

It is morally objectionable.   Therefore it is "cheating".  But as I said, I don't expect GRRM to share my view.  And I don't expect you to share it either.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

Right. Because he doesn't know for sure the answer to the question. Dany is asking for truth, not guesses. He doesn't have it, and he knows it.

Dany is not asking for truth, not especially from someone who says not being close to Rhaegar, she's asking for a plausible explanation to better  fit the contradictory narratives she's given.

Does he know now?? Because he seems quite sure about the truth  of that nor he gives any hint that there might something hidden from him regarding the affair.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

Right. The actual question is why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna the QoLaB. Thats when Elia was there, and Rhaegar passed her by.

Barristan doesn't know why that happened. He really can't answer that fairly. He can only guess, and a guess is morally not good enough to paint someone harshly from. 

No, the question is why could he crown Lyanna when Elia was there and  how could he stole Lyanna from her bethrothed.

 

On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

No, he is not. That is a common, but morally and intellectually corrupt lie. Such lies are one of the biggest problems facing our societies today.

It is not, it's basic human behaviour.

 

On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

Thats not blaming me for snoring like a bear. Thats offering a possibility why you did what you did. The action and the blame for it, is not shifted from you to me just because you used it as a reason. Thats the morally and intellectual corrupt part of the idea.

Because its yourself commenting on your own motivations, thats a stronger line too. Its not so easy for Barristan to speak to Rhaegar's motivations

It's sharing the guilt,  a guilt that does not correspond you, to the question, did corbon mistreat you?? the answer should be, yes, no or i don't know and why, not pointing out a flaw that it completely uncalled for. By doing that, you inevitably make the aggrieved more guilty in the eyes of the other party. 

Just as the imaginary users did not ask me if there was something about you that i disliked, Dany did not ask if there was  something wrong with Elia, but whether she had mistreated him, to the point of publicly spurn her, or not.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

But he must know that Elia couldn't have more kids and its more than likely he knows something of the Dragon having three heads and Rhaegar's interest in prophecy.

He must know about Elia, that was public knowledge, but the rest?? How and why?? Barristan himself regrets not having enjoyed if his trust and prophecies and the likes it's no something you go  screaming around, Jaime himself makes no mention about any of that, why would Barristan know??

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

I don't think its remotely clear that he believes that Rhaegar's love was the blame, the whole story.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't really understand it at all, and the only thing he can think of, the only thing he can put it on, is that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. But he recognises that thats not the whole story, that that story doesn't fit with the Rhaegar he knew before and after the abduction.

Well, he does not even hint in his pov, how can we know?? He at any rate has any problem to reconcile both Rhaegars, especially because he does not want to think about what he pulled, but he blames both himself for not having defeated Rhaegar at Harrenhall and Rhaegar's love, so by now he recognises that's the whole story, since it's unliikely anuway that Rhaegar would ever let anything more out.

I don't really think no one can reconcile the Rhaegar he knew and the Rheagar who crowned Lyanna anyway.

 

On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

I didn't say Robert had poor horsemanship skills, I said that Rhaegar was relatively better.

And i said that, that's a leap of faith.  Especially since both they were dueling in a way Rhaegar had ever fought and one in what Robert was already an expert.

 

On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

I didn't say that melees are only afoot.

And yet your idea of Rhaegar being relatively better, and that giving him an edge in a format he wasn't used to, comes from him being a better jouster. 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

Seems to me that these are all mixed up. Some that were, some that never were, some that may be, some allegorical. I can;t see how you say that this one is a 'never was', especially given that it matches so closely.
I also can't see how you suggest that this was just Dany's imagination. These are visions shown to her by the Undying, not cut from her own imagination. Where did the blue flows growing in the ice wall come from? the corpse at the prow of a ship? These aren't her own thoughts and ideas, they are coming form outside her.

Yes, this is a vision from eth Undying that may be a true vision or may be a false one. Its not even provable that its Rhaegar dying. But I think there is enough there to count this as actual evidence, not Dany's own invention.
So I'll continue with ideas that best match all of the evidence.

Because we got the tales of those who were there and those who were documented about the war, no one ever mention th battle ever being afoot, the battle started and ended ahorse, Dany who was not there and who has a very embellished idea about what happened. is the only one recalling said event, How cannot match closely?? Has Dany not being told about how Rhaegar died?? Isn't she the one introducing us to the battle??

Quote

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

If Dany's recollections of the events clashes with Ned's, then Dany is te unreliable narrator, not Ned.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

Did I suggest anyone was cheated? Or did cheat?

 

Saying that he lost because he was merciful/noble enough to unhorse  to a fallen enemy, implies that h would've won otherwise, especially since he was "relatively better" horseman. 

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 4:08 AM, corbon said:

Some bits seemed to get lost in my last answer.

Neither Viserys nor Darry were there in truth. They were at KL after Rhaegar came back, sure. But Viserys was a child, not a terribly stable one, and Darry was merely Master of Arms at the Red Keep. I don't see either of them being close to Rhaegar at the time, to get any sort of understanding or feeling of what was going on with him or of what happened with Rhaegar through that pre-war situation..

And Darry died when Dany was still a little girl. Even if Darry did know more, she was never old enough to discuss these sorts of things with Darry.
Which leaves just Viserys... and enough said.

Barristan OTOH was one of the commanders Rhaegar would have had to work closely with eading up to the Trident. That doesn't mean Rhaegar would have confided in him, but it does mean that they would be together enough in order for Barristan to have some sort of a feel for Rhaegar's state of mind, and current character (given he already knew him from childhood) and possibly a few hints or clues that inform his understanding.

 

Fair enough.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 4:08 AM, corbon said:

Was she? By our standards, yes, but not by theirs. I would not be surprised if, given time and context, Barristan told Dany eventually that towards the end her father only visited her mother when he was at his worst and the visits were not pleasant for her. He wouldn't outright call it rape, but I could easily see him letting her know how it was.
 But thats not where you jump in at when you are assessing the girl to see what coin side she was born with.

She was, marital rape it's not a crime but it seems that it's not the joyest event nor would be fir Dany and Barristan as it wasn't for Jaime or Darry.

I don't see it ever happening, truly, or at least no about her conception.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 4:08 AM, corbon said:

Did he? Seems to me he served Robert well and loyally and even with love - as much or more as he did any Targ before Dany. It was only when Joffrey threw him out that he switched sides, and even then he did it cautiously, testing Dany first.

He did, i'm not arguing that Barristan served Robert to his death or wold not have donethe same with Joffy, but that for him it was only duty, just as Barri B served Aerys to his death but would have rather him dying sooner and Rhaegar taking over. He was with the Baratheons out of duty not out of devotion and yes he wanted to test Dany first, anotherdeception on the throne would've made a him a kingslayer, but he was also urging Dany to reclaim her birthright and longing the return of the dragon etc etc etc.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 4:08 AM, corbon said:

I think thats disingenuous.
Barristan is a loyalist to his oaths, his position, himself really, not any family. Yes, he clearly like Rhaegar better. That might just be because of character rather than family y'know?
He certainly had no problem with serving Robert, who killed Rhaegar, and he clearly wasn't close with Rhaegar. And he tested Dany, before he was willing to commit to her.

Barristan was born a grew up in a time where the Targs were the undisputed rulers of Westeros, was given his nickname by Duncan Targ, was knighted by Egg himself, stayed at his court after that, fought for Jaeharys, was given the white cloak by him and later served his kid.  That some 30-40 years of his life under the Targs, that has to leave some mark.

He tested Dany but he was there in Slavers bay, a place he himself admits not belonging to, instead of you know Westeros, serving under one of the many Baratheons who were fighting for the ugly chair.

 

 

 

Edited by frenin

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With regards to the fight, it’s more than possible that Robert unhorsed Rhaegar and climbed off his horse, to make for a better fight, not out of character for him, the man lives for a battle and killing Rhaegar, no tricks, is like his goal, not saying that’s what happened, but I wouldn’t rule it out, that’s if the fight ended up on foot at all.

 

The vision in the HOTU is not all that realistic either, if Rhaegar takes that hammer to his chest, he’s on his back in the mud, lungs and ribs too crushed to be saying anybodies name, the vision implies Rhaegar dies more nobly than other men, which we should know is not true, he dies a bloody mess, with breeches full of shit. Not even the Mountain would keep his feet if he took that near mythical war hammer to the chest.

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I think he completed the self fulfilling prophecy while trying to prevent it. Instead of preventing or coming up with a solution, he brought the Long Night by having Jon. 

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14 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Actually it's worse, in my view.  It is an even bigger betrayal of one's original spouse.

Someone once said, long ago, when the phrase "free love" was still in vogue, "There is no such thing as free love; you are either a tried man or a traitor".  I agree with that; and I think it remains true if you substitute "polygamy" for "free love".  Ditto if you substitute "open marriage".

I agree with you. But, objective fact - its not definitively cheating if two people have sex within a polygamous union.

14 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Why are your moral opinions "objective" and mine not?

Thats not my moral opinion. 

14 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

It is morally objectionable.   Therefore it is "cheating".  But as I said, I don't expect GRRM to share my view.  And I don't expect you to share it either.

I do in fact share yours.

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8 hours ago, frenin said:

afoot, the battle started and ended ahorse, Dany who was not there and who has a very embellished idea about what happened. is the only one recalling said event, 

If Dany's recollections of the events clashes with Ned's, then Dany is te unreliable narrator, not Ned.

Like I said before, in general, I'm happy to let things stand, people can judge the arguments on their merits. Just a few points that I think need clearing up...

Dany is not "recollecting" or "recalling" this scene. Its a vision from the Undying, from outside her coming in, not from in her head.

7 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

With regards to the fight, it’s more than possible that Robert unhorsed Rhaegar and climbed off his horse, to make for a better fight, not out of character for him, the man lives for a battle and killing Rhaegar, no tricks, is like his goal, not saying that’s what happened, but I wouldn’t rule it out, that’s if the fight ended up on foot at all.

Thats not impossible either. But the evidence says that Rhaegar wounded Robert. No evidence says that Robert wounded Rhaegar, until the death blow. 

7 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

The vision in the HOTU is not all that realistic either, if Rhaegar takes that hammer to his chest, he’s on his back in the mud, lungs and ribs too crushed to be saying anybodies name,

I don't think so. His chest hasn't been stoved in, he's where the finest armour that can be bought which prevents that. More likely he's got a spike through that armour into his lower chest. 
Falling t his knees is a very dramatic hollywood ending. GRRM is a writer. I can see that being 'true' as easily as it being false.

7 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

the vision implies Rhaegar dies more nobly than other men, which we should know is not true, he dies a bloody mess, with breeches full of shit.

I don't see anything noble about it. Dramatic yes, but thats the whole point, its a hugely key moment for the entire series to come.. 
I rather suspect the shit was getting washed away. :)
And the men scrambling all over for rubies probably didn't help keep things 'tidy'.

7 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

Not even the Mountain would keep his feet if he took that near mythical war hammer to the chest.

So the hammer is near mythical, but only the hammer?
I think its the spike on the hammer that killed him. 

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I think a person who prioritizes having his penis polished instead of doing something about his 'about to go nuclear' daddy, discards his wife who almost just died giving birth after publicly insulting her and proceeds to shack up with someone else's betrothed thereby leaving his wife and children to the mercy of his crazy ass daddy with no one to protect her and doesn't show his face until a rebellion is already going on...well that person is total scum.

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5 hours ago, corbon said:

Dany is not "recollecting" or "recalling" this scene. Its a vision from the Undying, from outside her coming in, not from in her head.

But that’s the rub with these visions isn’t it?  We really don’t know the source.  We really don’t know their accuracy.  She’s given a vision of her son who was never born, standing before a banner that has never existed in front of a flaming city, a replay of a future event that can never occur.  Even the vision of her brother isn’t completely accurate.  After all he had a cauldron over his head, which doesn’t appear in the vision.  At the time she’s receiving these visions, she’s actively being manipulated by the shades in the House of the Undying.

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13 hours ago, corbon said:

Like I said before, in general, I'm happy to let things stand, people can judge the arguments on their merits. Just a few points that I think need clearing up...

Dany is not "recollecting" or "recalling" this scene. Its a vision from the Undying, from outside her coming in, not from in her head.

Thats not impossible either. But the evidence says that Rhaegar wounded Robert. No evidence says that Robert wounded Rhaegar, until the death blow. 

I don't think so. His chest hasn't been stoved in, he's where the finest armour that can be bought which prevents that. More likely he's got a spike through that armour into his lower chest. 
Falling t his knees is a very dramatic hollywood ending. GRRM is a writer. I can see that being 'true' as easily as it being false.

I don't see anything noble about it. Dramatic yes, but thats the whole point, its a hugely key moment for the entire series to come.. 
I rather suspect the shit was getting washed away. :)
And the men scrambling all over for rubies probably didn't help keep things 'tidy'.

So the hammer is near mythical, but only the hammer?
I think its the spike on the hammer that killed him. 

Arguable, I don’t disagree really, I just think that the vision was just that and if we get an actual account I’d be surprised if it was as clean cut, so to speak, I think falling to his knees muttering Lyanna’s name is very Hollywood, and the finest armour will probably help keep damage down, so maybe he can still speak, but I very much doubt he’s keeping his feet.

 

The near mythical comment is mainly just aimed at the weight of the hammer haha, a hammer that a strong man such as Ned Stark can scarcely lift will knock any man off his feet

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On 1/21/2020 at 3:52 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This isn't really the story though is it? We don't know the story in it's entirety so it's hard to say he was a man who acted all depressed & preyed on a teenage girl. 

 It probably looks like I am taking digs at Rhaegar all through this thread, talking about that stuff and the fight with Robert. I suppose I am really, though not with the fullest of intentions, opinions such as that of Barristan and Ned are important but everyone is human, which is why some of the evidence we have for Rhaegar leans towards him being a bit of a creeper, and even with more background being provided I can’t see that opinion changing really, unless we are thrown a curveball.

 

Hey, Robert impregnated a 14 year old while being in his thirties, now that is a guy with issues, but I can’t bring myself to hate him, mainly because he’s a work of fiction, if the text bought Rhaegar to life the way it did Robert and there was more to him that ‘ran off with a teenager and dies for it’ I am sure I’d like Rhaegar too, not that I dislike him, never met the man. He’s done a disservice really by being dead. I do hope that his story is a warning about prophecy, which it looks to be, and that everything doesn’t come up perfectly at the end. But that’s because I don’t want Stannis to be the only person who gets it all wrong

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1 hour ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

 It probably looks like I am taking digs at Rhaegar all through this thread, talking about that stuff and the fight with Robert. I suppose I am really, though not with the fullest of intentions, opinions such as that of Barristan and Ned are important but everyone is human, which is why some of the evidence we have for Rhaegar leans towards him being a bit of a creeper, and even with more background being provided I can’t see that opinion changing really, unless we are thrown a curveball.

 

Hey, Robert impregnated a 14 year old while being in his thirties, now that is a guy with issues, but I can’t bring myself to hate him, mainly because he’s a work of fiction, if the text bought Rhaegar to life the way it did Robert and there was more to him that ‘ran off with a teenager and dies for it’ I am sure I’d like Rhaegar too, not that I dislike him, never met the man. He’s done a disservice really by being dead. I do hope that his story is a warning about prophecy, which it looks to be, and that everything doesn’t come up perfectly at the end. But that’s because I don’t want Stannis to be the only person who gets it all wrong

Sure, I understand. For what it's worth I'm of the opinion that it will be a warning about prophecy. Stan the Man doesn't really have it wrong though. Mel does but Stannis knows Mel is off, he is just using that as a means. 

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Have no choice but to depend on memories of book characters - Selmy, Connington and others. Even Jaime has no mallicious reflections on him and this means something, I guess. The Lyanna case spoils my generally good opinion but I do not know  enough details to judge him. Good material for king but still just a man.

edit: I do not have problem with immorality of his deed but with the fact that it contributed to Robert's rebellion. 

Edited by broken one

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If there's one thing ASoiaF isn't it's simple although some on this thread seem to think so.

Barristen Selmy says that no one ever really knew Rhaegar, that he was melancholic and there was a "sense of doom" about him. He interpreted this as a result of Rhaegar's birth during the Tragedy of Summerhall but I think it was more than that.

House Targaryen survived The Doom because Daenys the Dreamer had a vision of Valyria's destruction and many Targaryen's have had prophetic dreams. We see this with Jon (I support R+L=J) and Daenerys but also in The Dunk and Egg series with Daeron Targaryen and Daemon Blackfyre. I believe Rhaegar also had visions. There's evidence for this in THotU where Rhaegar seems to look directly at Dany. I think he saw he and that he was telling her things she needed to hear.

Coming back to Daeron and Daemon, it's important to note that while both had accurate visions, both interpreted them wrong. Daeron thought that he was the dead dragon falling on Dunk but it was Baelor. Daemon's dream of a dragon egg hatching at Whitewalls was a metaphor. So if Rhaegar had prophetic dreams, he may have misinterpreted them as well.

Coming to Elia, it's important to remember that they did not marry for love. Rhaegar was fond of her but we aren't reliably told Elia's feelings towards Rhaegar. From what we say in Dany's vision, there wasn't any animosity and this is after Harrenhal. 

As for Harrenhal, I think that Rhaegar gave the winner's laurel to Lyanna because of her valor as TKotLT. We have seen many times that knights would underperform against royalty so Rhaegar might not have won fairly but Lyanna had defeated the three knights on her own and had shown more honor than most of the knights there. They had just met so while there may have been an attraction it wasn't love and this was before Elia was told that she couldn't have any more children. 

Some have wondered why Rhaegar was so quickly trying to produce a third child mere months after his second was born but I think it was because of his dreams.

Finally there's a theory about Azor Ahai and the foraging of Lightbringer. AA tried 3 times to make his sword. The first sword broke when he tempered it with water. The second broke when he stabbed the heart of a lion. The true Lightbringer was then forged by AA stabbing his wife Nissa Nissa. This kind of mirrors Rhaegar. First he believed that he was TPtwP but died in the Trident river. Second he believed that his son Aegon was the hero but was killed by Tywin the Lion's men (this is assuming, most likely correctly, that Young Griff is an impostor). But the true Lightbringer, forged from the death of Rhaegar's beloved wife Lyanna is Jon Snow- the sword in the darkness, the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn.

So rather than misinterpreting his visions, this theory says that Rhaegar knew all these things would happen and that's why he could never be happy or truly known, because he knew his fate was to die and cause thousands of deaths including his family and friends. That all of this was neccessary to save the world.

Meera says that Jojen would not fight against his greendreams even if it meant his death. Maybe Rhaegar was the same.

Edited by EvanSol919
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On 1/24/2020 at 3:47 AM, corbon said:

Because it isn't?
In a polygamous marriage, sleeping with one partner is not definitively cheating on the other. Thats an objective truth that needs to be accepted even if you don't find a polygamous marriage morally acceptable.

That would only make sense if (1) Rhaegar and Elia had agreed that Rhaegar could take on a second, third, fourth, etc. wife while they were married (which they most likely did not since the Faith does not permit polygamy and the very marriage vows the husband and wife exchanged in front of the High Septon would make it clear that they would be henceforth faithful to one another), and (2) if Elia still had been Rhaegar's wife in a meaningful sense after the birth of Aegon - which she wasn't because she could no longer bear him any children (which likely meant Rhaegar would have never again shared his bed with her).

Like with Maegor and Alys, Rhaegar discarded and replaced his (now) barren wife with a new one. This was not some sort of polygamous union where the husband slept with both his wives - like the Conqueror did with his sister-wives, or Maegor later did when he had Alys and Tyanna in KL or later still when he had Jeyne, Rhaena, and Elinor.

By all rights and customs of the Seven Kingdoms Rhaegar Targaryen broke his marriage to Elia Martell and of course cheated on her when he 'married' Lyanna Stark.

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On 1/23/2020 at 6:47 PM, corbon said:

Because it isn't?
In a polygamous marriage, sleeping with one partner is not definitively cheating on the other. Thats an objective truth that needs to be accepted even if you don't find a polygamous marriage morally acceptable.

 

You have no proof Elia had consented to polygamy and basing this idea that Rhaegar is not a cheater because of polygamy is a theory only. 

Edited by Crona
Sorry about my grammar

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That would only make sense if (1) Rhaegar and Elia had agreed that Rhaegar could take on a second, third, fourth, etc. wife while they were married (which they most likely did not since the Faith does not permit polygamy and the very marriage vows the husband and wife exchanged in front of the High Septon would make it clear that they would be henceforth faithful to one another), and (2) if Elia still had been Rhaegar's wife in a meaningful sense after the birth of Aegon - which she wasn't because she could no longer bear him any children (which likely meant Rhaegar would have never again shared his bed with her).

Why would their marriage not be meaningful anymore because Elia couldn't have any children? Meaningless to who? Certainly not in the eyes of the faith.  Also, why would the marriage being meaningless have any bearing on a potential polygamous marriage? 

I agree there most likely wasn't one, for the simple reason that the faith most likely wouldn't permit it but don't see how this other comes into play. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Like with Maegor and Alys, Rhaegar discarded and replaced his (now) barren wife with a new one. This was not some sort of polygamous union where the husband slept with both his wives - like the Conqueror did with his sister-wives, or Maegor later did when he had Alys and Tyanna in KL or later still when he had Jeyne, Rhaena, and Elinor

Maegor did get to set aside his wife legally eventually though didn't he? Or was that not til after she died, I can't remember. Again though, I agree it probably was not a 3 way marriage like Aegon but I don't know that we can say for certain either way. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

By all rights and customs of the Seven Kingdoms Rhaegar Targaryen broke his marriage to Elia Martell and of course cheated on her when he 'married' Lyanna Stark

In order to legally marry Lyanna, wouldn't it be necessary for him to either 1. Legally have a polygamous marriage or 2. Legally divorce Elia? In either case it wouldn't be considered adultery. For him to have cheated on Elia he would have had to either illegally marry Lyanna in some fashion or not marry her at all. 

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