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Alyn Oakenfist

What do people think about Rhaegar?

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He was a child who thought his life would have to be sacrificed to save the world. Then he became a father who thought his children would have to be sacrificed to save the world. And so he was grief stricken and most importantly preoccupied. Too busy diddling a young girl to save the world while his his kingdom burned, a dynasty was destroyed and his and wife and children were violently murdered.

The moral of the Rhaegar story is going to be handle the shit you are directly individually responsible for first and foremost.

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10 hours ago, frenin said:

Show Robert is as depressed as the book one but funnier, besides his point abot Lyanna is always great, it highlights Robert both conscious and unconscious choice to embrace, bitterness, depression and everything else and make Lyanna the vessel of his broken dreams and dessillusions in life.

 

Agree. his monologue with Cersei about how he cannot even remember what was her face makes everything more tragic, is a pitty that Robert has so few interactions in the book and with onle very few characters.

One chapter from Robert POV would be great, show us why he chooses Jaime to be warden of the East instead of Stannis, how he saw his relationship with his brothers, why he abide by Cersei's wishes so often, what he felt about his bastards, and so on and so on. His death was necessary for the story to go on, but I still cannot shake the idea that the character could be much more fleshed out and the show did it at least to some extend.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

 But yeah, show Rhaegar is a fun guy to be around, i laughed with Dany in that scene with Barri, book Rhaegar seems so miserable, so elvish... it doesn't help much that almost all we are told he did were fuck up after fuck up for guy allegedly so enlightened and brilliant.

I don't remember much talk about Rhaegar on the show to be honest, the only thing that comes to mind was Barristan talking about Rhaegar singing on the streets, wich sounds better than the sad and sorrow that he is in the books lol.

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Sure.  Maybe it was Arthur Dayne who knocked her up.  But I wasn't considering that theory

That's not what I'm saying at all. Maybe he divorced Elia or whatever the equivalent of divorce is in Westeros making him not an adulterer. Maybe Lyanna seduced him, making him not a seducer. Maybe neither of them seduced the other. I don't think an adulterer = villain anyway. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

makes him a fool whose actions are validated by author fiat.  Any author can do this.

Just because any author can do it doesn't mean Rhaegar is a fool. 

11 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

What's stopping him from being both? One could even add mad to the list.

Absolutely. Nothing is stopping him from being all that & more. He may very well be those things. I was asking how we know he is a villain or a fool. 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Absolutely. Nothing is stopping him from being all that & more. He may very well be those things. I was asking how we know he is a villain or a fool. 

Rhaegar motivation being a prophecy or love seems lunatic on the first case or selfish and unreasonable on the later and his dealings with the matter resulted on everyone that look up for him being abandoned(Jon Con, Viserys and his mother), killed(Aerys, Elia, his kids) an or disapointed(Barristan).

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6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Just because any author can do it doesn't mean Rhaegar is a fool. 

Your argument was that such author fiat means he is not a fool.  Okay fine.  In that case, he is not a fool, but only by author fiat.  But I was only calling him a fool because his behavior is what I would consider foolish.

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6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Rhaegar motivation being a prophecy or love seems lunatic on the first case or selfish and unreasonable on the later and his dealings with the matter resulted on everyone that look up for him being abandoned(Jon Con, Viserys and his mother), killed(Aerys, Elia, his kids) an or disapointed(Barristan).

Sure, it might seem that way but without having all the information we don't know it is. 

I suppose for some people, no matter what the prophecy said or what he was potentially accomplishing with it, it will always seem mad or selfish but I'm of the opinion that there are some things that would be worth it. 

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7 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Your argument was that such author fiat means he is not a fool.  Okay fine.  In that case, he is not a fool, but only by author fiat.  But I was only calling him a fool because his behavior is what I would consider foolish.

But why or how when you don't know what the motivation was for his behavior? 

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18 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But why or how when you don't know what the motivation was for his behavior? 

I expect we will find out he was motivated by prophesy.  Obviously, we'll know more when we actually know.

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8 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I expect we will find out he was motivated by prophesy.  Obviously, we'll know more when we actually know.

Yes, well we have some pretty good hints that a prophecy got him moving but what did the prophecy say? What was he trying to accomplish? Did he have real, viable reasons to try to accomplish this or was he a nut? These things & more would have to be answered before I could say for sure he was foolish or not. 

Maybe you are of the opinion, that regardless of any of that, he is foolish for merely for listening to a prophecy. In which case, we disagree. 

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OP

I don’t like his character.

George uses him to push the idea that “love makes you do stupid things” and always leads to tragedy.

The problem is:

1) Not always

2) Not to such a ridiculous extent

I think George is being satirical here. Compare this with Wheel of Time where every POV finds THE ONE and two half’s become one complete whole in all these lovely moments. He’s clearly writing in opposition to that sentiment in High Fantasy. Which is why Rhaegar and Leanna is a disaster. Why almost all romantic feelings in the series have went this way. In the series I don’t think anyone apart from Sam and Gilly will be in a successful relationship at the end. Which I think will be a tough sell and borders upon narcissism.

Plus, he seems to be of the view that love is just a chance for sexy time coz all them lustful youngsters. So of course it’s a silly irrational thing that always going to  be a detriment to real world stuff. He doesn’t consider the idea that two people who love and trust each other would compliment each others talents. It’s always a detriment and a burden that brings conflict. Which the Rhaegar and Leanna thing embodies. To take a historical example off the top of my head, Justinian and Theodora the rulers of the Roman Empire. That sort of power couple doesn’t really exist in Georges world. 

However with Rhaegar I don’t buy it. The whole story of how the war starts is too stupid and contingent on too many conveniences to be believable.

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19 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

He doesn’t consider the idea that two people who love and trust each other would compliment each others talents. It’s always a detriment and a burden that brings conflict.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne for the most obvious.

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe you are of the opinion, that regardless of any of that, he is foolish for merely for listening to a prophecy. In which case, we disagree. 

I don't think he is foolish merely for listening to, or even being influenced by, a prophesy, as long as he does not allow himself to do something that would otherwise be regarded as foolish or wicked.  But I would consider him foolish (and wicked) for doing something ordinarily regarded as wicked (like cheating on his wife), because a prophesy told him to.

But, as I said, I expect GRRM to write the ending in such a way as to validate Rhaegar's actions (in your opinion, if not in mine).  For all I know, he may even have signed permission from Elia for their open marriage arrangement.

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17 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

But, as I said, I expect GRRM to write the ending in such a way as to validate Rhaegar's actions

What would you base that on? The text is fighting Rhaegar on two fronts.

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"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

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Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

What would you base that on?

It's merely my sense of things.  I think GRRM is on Rhaegar's side.  Rhaegar was wrong at first, when he thought he was TPTWP, but was right in the end, when he arrived at the secret revelations that GRRM is still withholding from us.  That's where I think GRRM is going.  I don't really care to debate it.   Time will tell, assuming the books are ever finished.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I don't remember much talk about Rhaegar on the show to be honest, the only thing that comes to mind was Barristan talking about Rhaegar singing on the streets, wich sounds better than the sad and sorrow that he is in the books lol.

Show Rhaegar is the good Rhaegar

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On 1/23/2020 at 10:22 AM, frenin said:

Barri B is unable to tell Dany his thoughts about what Rhaegar pulled and instead of telling Dany his answer is,""It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart." Why do you think he does not give a straight answer there as he does inevery conversation he has with Dany about her family except when it goes to touchy subjects such as Aerys madness and Rhaegar's mistakes??

Not wanting to hurt her does not equate to avoiding ranting. 
Yes, he's reluctant to tell her really bad stuff. But he's also careful to tell the truth. 
In this particular case, it looks very much to me like he is reluctant to state Rhaegar's motivations because he's not actually really clear on them. Loving Lyanna, doesn't necessarily make that the motivation for Rhaegar's actions. I think Barristan isn't really sure what motivated Rhaegar. He knows some things, more than us in some areas, but he was never in Rhaegar's inner circle, never fully trusted. So its not surprising that an honest, careful man is reluctant to give an opinion (as a fact) about something he's not sure about.

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And instead of saying, no Elia didn't do anything he says, well Elia was a great girl a pity she was always so sickly, which is a running theme among all those who loved Rhaegar.

I think thats a dodgy narrative. Elia's ill-health is a running theme on her period. From her own family even. 
And yes, given the "three heads" significance and the fact that Elia had two kids but her health prevented her from having more, thats possibly a significant factor in the events that transpired.
Barristan isn't 'blaming' Elia for anything. He''s doing his best to give information that may be relevant to Rhaegar's actions while emphasizing the Elia was a good person and blameless.

The whole "victim shaming" narrative is, as it often is, an attempt to corrupt the argument and remove valid points by making PC grandstanding.

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Later on Barri B outright thinks that Rhaegar's love costed thhousands of lives, do you really believe that he would've told Dany that??

Given time, perhaps, yes. Its not exactly a complete picture though is it? Even aside from the delicacy of teaching Dany the bad as well as the good about her family's past.

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Does he now?? It's rather stricking that people have some cognitive dussonance when it comes to Aerys then. And even at the end,  Barri B is forced to tell the truth. Because  no, saying that Viseys is a failure is safe space.

I can't really follow this, sorry.

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You tell me how a loyalist would go over badmouthing Rhaegar to his sister, Jorah only does it once, when he believes Dany can make a serious mistake.

Well, first you have to truly believe bad things, before you can badmouth him.

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  1.  I didn't ask for evidence of Rhaegar wounding Robert, i know he did, this conversation wouldn't make sense if not. But you claimed that Rhaegar wounded Robert first. But my bad i red something you did not read. My apologies.

Well, the only wound we know of that Robert gave Rhaegar was the final fatal one, which ended the fight right there and then. So from the data we have, Rhaegar did in fact wound Robert first. Perhaps there were other inconsequential wounds on either side, I don't know. Given Robert's fighting method, I doubt it. But it doesn't truly matter.

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  1. Fair enough, playing the devil's advocate, perhaps Robert was seriously, i doubt tho it's pretty unlikely he could've made the journey if so, but was capable of riding. But using him giving Ned the command of the van is pretty useless unless we're sur that Martin is messing with time and distance GoT style and giving what we know of the Robellion, that wouldn't be so unlikely.

Well, I'll just go by the evidence we have, and both Ned and Yandel point to the wound Rhaegar gave Robert as being the reason Robert didn't join the pursuit but came up later. How serious, I don't know. Probably less serious than the wound Robert took at Ashford, given he seems to have still been feeling the effects of that one several weeks later (or not, given that he caroused his was through the entire brothel!)

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  1. But then again, i really see no difference between people believing Rhaegar was a useless giit and people believing that honorable, nobl, valiant Rhaegar was somehow betrayed in the battle (My two favourites is that Rhaegar forgives Robert's life and then Robert kills him unawared and Rhaegar being too good for this world, seeing his incredibly superiority on horseback, decided to dismount and Robert killed him on foot:rofl:), people gotta love with passion.:dunno: 

Well, there are idiots, or just speculations, at either extreme... I've not even heard that one about Rhaegar winning (or heard and promptly forgot as they are too ridiculous).
The horseback to foot one though, I think thats exactly where the evidence leads us. Not because Rhaegar was "too good for this world" but because thats what honourable knights do, almost always. But most of all because most of the evidence says horseback, but the final blow evidence says Rhaegar fell to his knees, which indicates on foot.

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No, Barri B is incapable to say Dany exactly what he thinks about the situation, which is Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands die for it, as Barri B knows that's simply a non answer, he directly dodges,

I think thats part of what Barristan thinks is the answer, but he doesn't know all of it and he knows he doesn't know all of it. So it really isn't his place to state Rhaegar's motivations.

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Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

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"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. "My death?" She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.

These are book 1. 
Dany is an extremely unreliable witness here. She was born after all these events, and as far as we know has had no real, adult (or close to adult) contact with any person who participated in them. We are not taking her version any more, probably less, seriously than Robert's at this stage.

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And no, Barri B did not defend Elia, he told the truth and use that truth again to dodge the blame her,

Bullshit, He did not shift the blame to her. 

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it's not the first time someone who loves Rhaegar talks about her health. Her health's problems are entirely irrelevant on whether she treated him bad or not. 

Indeed. But they are not entirely irrelevant as to Rhaegar's motivations, which is the actual subject of the conversation.

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Barri is not going to lie to Dany about her brother(s) and father, that's the opposite of his intention but he is going to spare her uncomfortable truths if it is within his power. The only way Barri B could've say otherwise would be outright lying.

I agree. However, its important to note, he's also not going to lie to her. And over time, as she's ready, he will introduce her to uncomfortable truths.

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He does with Rhaegar there and he does with Aerys here. I doubt any of those quotes are info dump, those info are used for a very specific purpose in both times.

 

"When the day comes that you raise your banners, half of Westeros will be with you," Whitebeard promised. "Your brother Rhaegar is still remembered, with great love."
"And my father?" Dany said.
The old man hesitated before saying, "King Aerys is also remembered. He gave the realm many years of peace. Your Grace, you have no need of slaves. Magister Illyrio can keep you safe while your dragons grow, and send secret envoys across the narrow sea on your behalf, to sound out the high lords for your cause."

See, note the hesitation. He's not gonna lie to her. But the full truth is not something she's ready for at this time. So he gives her truth, but not the full truth. Barristan is deliberately walking a thin line here - heck, IIRC he's not even decided yet whether he's truly behind her or not!

On 1/23/2020 at 10:48 AM, frenin said:

Barristan and Dany who has to had heard the story from someone. 

Barristan's not even a loyalist early on. He's still sounding Dany out, testing her, looking for which side of the coin came up in her case.
Dany heard most of her stories from Viserys, an extremely unreliable source for multiple reasons. No reasonable reader uses Dany's take on Rhaegar as serious evidence.

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As for the quotes, it's there a difference?? Barri B and Robert have different versiions of the story, is the story less true because of that. Barri B does not confirm anything that we did not know already, his claim is just one among many.

Thats not true. Barristan spent time with Rhaegar after the actual events. That positions him as a significantly stronger source than others who had no contact with any actual participant in the events. 

He's also kinda been on both sides, but not tightly tied to either, making him less likely to be significantly biased either way. He has no real emotional skin in this game.

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The idea that Rhaegar loved her is not more likely because Barri thinks it.

Given that Barristan had actual contact with Rhaegar after the abduction, I think it is. It doesn't make it certain (we don't know what Barristan actually knows, or what is just his supposition vs what he has heard from Rhaegar's mouth) but he's a higher level source than others.

More likely does not mean definitive. It means a higher level of likelihood.

23 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I would go even further and say that if the wound was that grievious, Robert would not let his maester attend to Barristan first and would prioritize his own life, like anyone would.

There is no indication that Robert let Barristan be attended before himself, is there? Both the quotes I can find just say Robert sent his own Maester to tend him when he was found, rather than having him killed.
It is specific in TWoIaF that Robert's wound was what prevented him from taking up the pursuit.

I'm not suggest Rhaegar nearly killed Robert. I am suggesting that Rhaegar wasn't useless, but was rather good and good enough to hurt Robert.

My current head-cannon, or 'best understanding', based on the evidence we have, subject to revision under new evidence (or good argument about the old evidence!) is that Robert and Rhaegar fought mostly ahorse (most accounts says so). Rhaegar was clearly the better horseman, as per their respective jousting records and reputations. Rhaegar wounded Robert, seriously enough to hamper him, but not to stop him fighting. As per Dany's vision, when Robert hit Rhaegar with that final blow, Rhaegar fell to his knees. Which suggests they were on foot at the end. As per Jorah Mormont, Rhaegar fought honourably and nobly. But died.
I suspect that Rhaegar had the advantage on horseback, and was winning, wounding Robert and possibly knocked him off his horse. Rhaegar then dismounted, honourably and nobly, as most knights would do (its harder to force a "yield" for example, on horse than it is afoot) but on foot Robert's melee skills and strength came into their own and Robert hit Rhaegar with that killing blow.

This is by no means certain, just the best I can see to put all the evidence together in a working scenario.

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Robert was also wounded before the battle of the bells and he was still capable of killing several knights and beating Jon Connington without even using his main weapon.

Yep. Being wounded first doesn't mean the fight is over. It does give good evidence of competency on behalf of the final loser though.

23 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Rhaegar motivation being a prophecy or love seems lunatic on the first case

Like when Aenar Targaryen followed the visions of Daenerys the Dreamer and left Valyria?

I would say ignoring prophecy entirely is the lunatic option in this world.
Not getting your cock bitten off though, thats not so easy.

 

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or selfish and unreasonable on the later and his dealings with the matter resulted on everyone that look up for him being abandoned(Jon Con, Viserys and his mother), killed(Aerys, Elia, his kids) an or disapointed(Barristan).

Well, y'know, its not all that easy not to get your cock bitten off...
OTOH, the story is not finished yet. We don't know the prophecy details yet, nor how its panned out.

21 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

George uses him to push the idea that “love makes you do stupid things” and always leads to tragedy.

 

I don't agree with this.
I don't think he did stupid things. I don't think he was 'mad for love' enough to abandon his intellect and duty, the traits GRRM has emphasised.

I think he did the best things he could think of under the circumstances and unexpected events (Brandon's incredibly stupid ride to KL, where Rhaegar was not (which provoked Aerys in a manner unexpected) changed the train of events.

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However with Rhaegar I don’t buy it. The whole story of how the war starts is too stupid and contingent on too many conveniences to be believable.

I think we know very little of how the war actually started.

I think Rhaegar and Lyanna 'disappearing' was precisely chosen to avoid rash Brandon doing crazy shit (there's not much potentially productive rash things he could do if he doesn't know where either of them are - no bold rescues, no inflammatory confrontations) and to bring Aerys and Rickard together in agreement. The problem was that Brandon went to the wrong place to find them, and ran straight into Aerys. Note that Brandon thought Rhaegar would be at the Red Keep, which is a really odd assumption.
Unfortunately, Rhaegar and Lyanna got it wrong. They were too clever, and made a mistake. Brandon got the wrong message and did even crazier shit than they expected, and then, having gone off the grid to disappear and avoid crazy shit happening, they weren't in a position to react to events (heck, even learn about them) until it was too late.

21 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I don't think he is foolish merely for listening to, or even being influenced by, a prophesy, as long as he does not allow himself to do something that would otherwise be regarded as foolish or wicked. 

You mean like his ancestors, selling up and fleeing Valyria, which everyone thought was foolish?
I think its really hard to judge what's foolish and whats not, until after the dust has settled. And even then...
I don't know how things will pan out. But what if Jon is a key part of avoiding the Long Night? And what if its his Stark upbringing that matters? If Rhaegar and Lyanna had've gotten together 'successfully', Jon would've almost certainly had a Targaryen upbringing and be considered by all as a Dragon, not a Stark. It might be, we'll find out eventually, that Rhaegar and Lyanna needed to make a child for the prophecy but that the child needed the Stark upbringing to pull off what was needed? But of course, Rhaegar didn't know that, the prophecy isn't detailed enough most likely. 
Or maybe not, who knows other than GRRM? Thats some wild speculation there!

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But I would consider him foolish (and wicked) for doing something ordinarily regarded as wicked (like cheating on his wife), because a prophesy told him to.

That assumes he cheated on his wife. There are several scenarios available where he did not. Scenarios which fit the data and fit scattered hints throughout the text.

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But, as I said, I expect GRRM to write the ending in such a way as to validate Rhaegar's actions (in your opinion, if not in mine).  For all I know, he may even have signed permission from Elia for their open marriage arrangement.

I think a polygamous marriage is more likely (I think such a note from Elia is extraordinarily unlikely), but, yes. This is the point.
Everyone rushes to judge based on stuff we don't know rather than making an effort to reconcile the unknowns with the knowns - that Rhaegar was extremely intelligent, extremely able, and characterised as dutiful with no indications otherwise except those unknowns. And that Lyanna had some wisdom, cared for others, and acted with honour. 

I don't think GRRM is writing a story where these two people suddenly go completely against both of their characterisations due to the madness of love/lust.
I think he's writing a story where the readers are regularly fed incomplete information that gives a false picture, with clues about how that picture might be false.

Perhaps I'm wrong..

Edited by corbon

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52 minutes ago, corbon said:

That assumes he cheated on his wife. There are several scenarios available where he did not. Scenarios which fit the data and fit scattered hints throughout the text.

Anything is possible.  I'm just saying what my expectations are, and on this point, my expectations are not particularly high.  I do not count GRRM as a big believer in the sanctity of marriage.

52 minutes ago, corbon said:

I think a polygamous marriage is more likely.

Okay.  But why should I not count that as cheating on his wife? 

52 minutes ago, corbon said:

Everyone rushes to judge based on stuff we don't know rather than making an effort to reconcile the unknowns with the knowns - that Rhaegar was extremely intelligent, extremely able, and characterised as dutiful with no indications otherwise except those unknowns. And that Lyanna had some wisdom, cared for others, and acted with honour.

All we can do is guess.  But yes, I agree with you that GRRM's evidence seems to suggest he has a high opinion of Rhaegar.  In my case, I reconcile this by observing that GRRM probably does not share my ideas about sexual morality.

52 minutes ago, corbon said:

I don't think GRRM is writing a story where these two people suddenly go completely against both of their characterisations due to the madness of love/lust.

I don't expect GRRM will portray Rhaegar as motivated by the madness of lust.

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The next in line to the throne, father of the next two in line to the throne, ran off with a 16 year old high lord's daughter promised to another high lord's son, and impregnated her, while the realm warred and burned. Elia has not the power to absolve Rhaegar. For prophesy to absolve Rhaegar GRRM would basically have to do an about face, the lesson would become prophesy is a bad idea to follow for fire witches and uptight second sons, but good for pretty emo princes.

The text took care to make sure we know Lyanna wasn't happy with Robert's character, Lyanna falling in love and running off with a prince of contrasting character to escape her fate with Robert is not at all out of character.

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On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

Not wanting to hurt her does not equate to avoiding ranting. 
Yes, he's reluctant to tell her really bad stuff. But he's also careful to tell the truth. 
In this particular case, it looks very much to me like he is reluctant to state Rhaegar's motivations because he's not actually really clear on them. Loving Lyanna, doesn't necessarily make that the motivation for Rhaegar's actions. I think Barristan isn't really sure what motivated Rhaegar. He knows some things, more than us in some areas, but he was never in Rhaegar's inner circle, never fully trusted. So its not surprising that an honest, careful man is reluctant to give an opinion (as a fact) about something he's not sure about.

It depends of the situation, Barristan only talks truly about things that would pain Dany to hear about her family when his hand is forced,  when Dany outright asked him if her father was remembered with great love, his answer was, "your father is also remembered, he gave the Realm many years of peace". About that particular question, Dany asks for an opinion, how could he do that, and a fact, did the dornish woman treat him so ill??  Barri gives neither, loving Lyanna doesn't necessarily make a motivation for Rhaegar's actions, but it's the only motivation Barri knows about and it's the only motivation he can give to Dany, thatand his opinions about the matter, again, he gives neither.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

I think thats a dodgy narrative. Elia's ill-health is a running theme on her period. From her own family even. 
And yes, given the "three heads" significance and the fact that Elia had two kids but her health prevented her from having more, thats possibly a significant factor in the events that transpired.
Barristan isn't 'blaming' Elia for anything. He''s doing his best to give information that may be relevant to Rhaegar's actions while emphasizing the Elia was a good person and blameless.

The whole "victim shaming" narrative is, as it often is, an attempt to corrupt the argument and remove valid points by making PC grandstanding.

Elia's health was not relevant, at any rate you should answer to the questions?? Why could he do that?? Did his wife treat him so ill?? By addressing her health problems he is shifting part of the blame on her, If people ask me why if i cheated on you because you mistreat me and i'd answer, "well Corbon was an incredible person, super lovable, would never harm a fly, he snore like a bear tho". What do you think i'm doing?? It's not corrupting anything, it's what Barri is doing.

Using a meta level argument to explain Barri's words it's a very  weak argument, Barri does not know that Rhaegar was desperate fir another kid, nor do we know either for that matter, Barri B clearly believes that it was Rhaegar's love to blame, on that situation, bringing Elia's health up only serves consciously and unconsciously one purpose. Lessening  Rhaegar's guilt on Dany's eyes, and more than likely his.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

Given time, perhaps, yes. Its not exactly a complete picture though is it? Even aside from the delicacy of teaching Dany the bad as well as the good about her family's past.

Given time, not there not when  Dany wants to hear awesome  good things about him and not ready to hear the bad, not when it wasn't. It's the picture he has.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

I can;t really follow this, sorry.

 

1. That he never, once, says a bad thing about Aerys... only about Viserys- safe space- Targaryen. 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

Well, first you have to truly believe bad things, before you can badmouth him.

Fair enough, too bad that a spy is not the most reliable of sources isn't it??

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

Indeed. But they are not entirely irrelevant as to Rhaegar's motivations, which is the actual subject of the conversation.

They're entirely irrelevant, unless Barristan knew the reason, given his idea of his love for Lyanna and his assestment of not being trusted by Rhaegar.  If Barristan knew about those, he would not blame the aforemention love.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

Well, the only wound we know of that Robert gave Rhaegar was the final fatal one, which ended the fight right there and then. So from eth data we have, Rhaegar did in fact wound Robert first. Perhaps there were other incoequential wounds on either side, I don't know. Given Robert's fighting method, I doubt it. But it doesn't truly matter.

No, the only blow we know Robert gave is the fatal one, unless Rhaegar had a super speed that made him dodge any blow from that hammer, it's pretty much impossible he didn't have wounds.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

Well, I'll just go by the evidence we have, and both Ned and Yandel point to the wound Rhaegar gave Robert as being the reason Robert didn't join the pursuit but came up later. How serious, I don;t know. Probably less serious than the wound Robert took at Ashford.

Ofc it is, but that's not  to say that said wound could've not being treated before if Robert had not Robert sent his maester to treat a near dead Barri, that does not change the fact that Rhaegar was the reason for why he could not have chased the routed army one bit, but since Robert and Ned were together when Barri was brought to them and when Robert sent his maester to treat him, it's quite unlikely the decision was already made

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

Well, there are idiots at either extreme... I've not even heard those (or heard and promptly forgot as they are too ridiculous).
The horseback to foot one though, I think thats exactly where the evidence leads us. Not because Rhaegar was "too good for this world" but because thats what honourable knights do, almost always.

No it's not, it's as ludicrous.

The fight is described  only on horseback by Ned and Yandel, Robert does not have poor horseman skills and every melee starts on horseback.

I don't really know where the idea of poor jouster= poor horseman comes from.Yes, jousting needs a must than average hosemanship skills and the better the skills the better jouster, but that's not make it all. Especially i don't know where the idea of melees only afoot comes from, not the books and  certainly not real history, melees can be afoot, on horse, in boat etc. Every charge of the van of the army leads to a melee.

Seriously we've seen plenty of melees ahorse, Brienne's one was ahorse without going further

 

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon's laughter, and Robert's berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king's pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Os well Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

 

 

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

I think thats part of what Barristan thinks is the answer, but he doesn't know all of it and he knows he doesn't know all of it. So it really isn't his place to state Rhaegar's motivations.

Is his place to give what he thinks about what he did. Barri does know Rhaegar did not trust him, but he never doubts about why he did what he did, both his guilt regarding not having unhorsed Rhaegar and his blame on Rhaegar and his love, in fact when he start wondering about not having his trusts, he evokes Harrenhall, where people believed planned to stage his coup. Not you know,  the abduction.

Barristan never gives a hint of not believing he doesn't know all o it or even if there is more than he does not know about the matter.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

These are book 1. 
Dany is an extremely unreliable witness here. She was born after all these events, and as far as we know has had no real, adult (or close to adult) contact with any person who participated in them. We are not taking her version any more, probably less, seriously than Robert's at this stage.

Both Viserys and Darry were there.

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

I agree. However, its important to note, he's also not going to lie to her. And over time, as she's ready, he will introduce her to uncomfortable truths.

Will he?? Tell all of them?? Will he tell her that she was born out of rape?? Unlikely, over time sure, he will start telling uncomfortable truths, all of them however...

 

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

See, note the hesitation. He's not gonna lie to her. But the full truth is not something she's ready for at this time. So he gives her truth, but not the full truth. Barristan is deliberately walking a thin lie here - heck, IIRC he's not even decided yet whether he's truly behind her or not!

Exactly, he does this again when Dany asks him uncomfortable questions about Rhaegar. 

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

Barristan's not even a loyalist early on. He's still sounding Dany out, testing her, looking for which side of the coin came up in her case.
Dany heard most of her stories from Viserys, and extremely unreliable source for multiple reasons. No one takes Dany's take on Rhaegar as serious evidence.

Barristan has defected the Baratheon to the Targs early on and he always loved them better anyways.

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

Thats not true. Barristan spent time with Rhaegar after the actual events. That positions him as a significantly stronger source than others who had no contact with any actual participant in the events. 

He's also kinda been on both sides, but not tightly tied to either, making him less likely to be significantly biased either way. He has no real emotional skin in this game.

Given that Barristan had actual contact with Rhaegar after the abduction, I think it is. It doesn't make it certain (we don't know what Barristan actually knows, or what is just his supposition vs what he has heard from Rhaegar's mouth) but he's a higher level source than others.

More likely does not mean definitive. It means a higher level of likelihood.

And Barri admits that he never had Rhaegar trust, so why are we going to believe Rhaegar told him or if even he asked?? How many times Barristan makes personal questions to Dany, 

Saying that Barristan is on both sides is disingenous, he's clearly a loyalist and he clearly liked  Rhaegar better., he's clearly more attached to one side better than other.

 

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, corbon said:

My current head-cannon, based on the evidence we have, subject to revision under new evidence (or good argument about the old evidence!) is that Robert and Rhaegar fought mostly ahorse (most accounts says so). Rhaegar was clearly the better horseman, as per their respective jousting records and reputations. Rhaegar wounded Robert, seriously enough to hamper him, but not to stop him fighting. As per Dany's vision, when Robert hit Rhaegar with that final blow, Rhaegar fell to his knees. Which suggests they were on foot at the end. As per Jorah Mormont, Rhaegar fought honourably and nobly. But died.

As i said before, we don't know if Rhaegar was  the better horseman clearly or otherwise and since Rhaegar had never fought any melee ahorse which clearly limits him because real fight is not a joust, not had fight any battle prior that, it's extremely unlikely that could happen. Robert was a famous melee participant and pretty bloodied by then.

Dany's visions are about the things that never were, and since no one seems recalling about the battle fought afoot, that scene is simply Dany's imagination. 

Jorah's words are about that doing that does not assure you the win, not that he was somehow cheated.

Edited by frenin

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