How did the Nights Watch get so weak?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So we know that in the 300 since the Iron Throne exists, the Nights Watch went from some 10k men to about a thousand. So what happened? I doubt the crime rate went down in those 300 years, especially given that the biggest protectors of the smallfolk, the Poor Fellow were made illegal. So why did their numbers went down so badly?

[Unacosamedarisa]

Nightswatch gets its recruits 3 ways: Criminals who take the black; People defeated in a war or similar; and volunteers. The stream of criminals coming to the Wall hasn’t changed much, but the other avenues have.

Peace throughout the 7 Kingdoms, which came with the Targaryen conquest, means fewer wars in Westeros, which means fewer warriors and knights and the like being defeated/captured and taking the Black. We know from the Shieldhall at Castle Black that there used to be a lot of Knights that did take the Black, but those numbers have dwindled. I’ve always thought that this is largely due to the lack of wars, an unintended effect of the Targ unification of the Kingdoms. 

A further consequence of this, is that what little esteem or honour there was in taking the Black has also dwindled, especially in the South, and so fewer people are willing to volunteer. Volunteers are no longer going to be serving alongside respected, “honourable” men who were defeated in battle... they’re going to be serving alongside criminals, which is where the majority of the Watch’s members come from nowadays. So, volunteering is less appealing. 

[TedBear]

Also, Essos is an outlet for criminals in Westeros, certainly a large part of them would prefer to get away with crimes by fleeing to the other side of the sea, probably the means for a person go to another continent without too many problems has increased and got cheaper in all these years.

[Lord Lannister]

It always seemed a slow decay of the "honorable" volunteers and sons of noblemen in favor of the criminals to me. So people became less and less inclined to volunteer, with conditions becoming more and more brutal at the wall as a result, even the criminals aren't much inclined to go to the wall unless they have no other choice to stay alive. The majority of the nobles, who let's face it are your ruling class still, you're getting these days are people like Jon who are too naive to know better and people like Thorne and Sam who have no other choice but to go to save their lives.

[X-Buster]

The threat did not justify the expense.  The wildlings raided and murdered the people of the Gift but that was not enough to justify a dedicated army of 10,000 men.   The wildlings never got strong enough to threaten the security of the kingdom until Mance Rayder came along.  The damage from the wildling raiders could be tolerated.  

[The Jingo]

49 minutes ago, Unit A2 said:

The threat did not justify the expense.  The wildlings raided and murdered the people of the Gift but that was not enough to justify a dedicated army of 10,000 men.   The wildlings never got strong enough to threaten the security of the kingdom until Mance Rayder came along.  The damage from the wildling raiders could be tolerated.  

The purpose of the Gift is that the Night's Watch at least theoretically has the ability to support itself without donations of supplies from the south. So the expense is minimal.

The decline of the Watch is the result snowballing. When Aegon united the Seven Kingdoms he brought an end to the constant wars. This greatly reduced the stream of men being sentenced to serve at the Wall. Which had the effect of making the Watch weaker, which made both it and the Gift more vulnerable to Wildling raids, which increased causalities, which made them even weaker, which increased casualties, and so forth. It's not that the lords just decided one day to stop funding the Watch - they generally weren't doing so anyway unless they lived in the North themselves.

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Nightswatch gets its recruits 3 ways: Criminals who take the black; People defeated in a war or similar; and volunteers. The stream of criminals coming to the Wall hasn’t changed much, but the other avenues have.

Peace throughout the 7 Kingdoms, which came with the Targaryen conquest, means fewer wars in Westeros, which means fewer warriors and knights and the like being defeated/captured and taking the Black. We know from the Shieldhall at Castle Black that there used to be a lot of Knights that did take the Black, but those numbers have dwindled. I’ve always thought that this is largely due to the lack of wars, an unintended effect of the Targ unification of the Kingdoms. 

A further consequence of this, is that what little esteem or honour there was in taking the Black has also dwindled, especially in the South, and so fewer people are willing to volunteer. Volunteers are no longer going to be serving alongside respected, “honourable” men who were defeated in battle... they’re going to be serving alongside criminals, which is where the majority of the Watch’s members come from nowadays. So, volunteering is less appealing. 

This and the creation of the Kingsguard to protect the king of the 7K, which was crafted after the idea of the NW (and their vows). Commit to traveling the 7K and show off your skill at tourneys, win prizes and hope to get noticed to one day be invited into the KG and protect the king OR take the black, freeze your balls off, fighting alongside criminals. There being a far more prestiguous alternative, one of "glory" rather than "honor" helped plummet the numbers of the NW.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

This and the creation of the Kingsguard to protect the king of the 7K, which was crafted after the idea of the NW (and their vows). Commit to traveling the 7K and show off your skill at tourneys, win prizes and hope to get noticed to one day be invited into the KG and protect the king OR take the black, freeze your balls off, fighting alongside criminals. There being a far more prestiguous alternative, one of "glory" rather than "honor" helped plummet the numbers of the NW.

You seriously think a knightly order limited to seven knights at a time was ever a serious rival order to the NW? Not in any world where people can count... On average, a the king names a new KG in 1-2 generations.

When the Andals came and brought chivalry and tourneys and knightly orders like the Warrior's Sons and the Order of the Green Hand this would have had a considerable effect on the men who considered to join a sworn brotherhood (why go up north when you win fame down here?). But the Kingsguard? Not a chance.

1 hour ago, The Jingo said:

The purpose of the Gift is that the Night's Watch at least theoretically has the ability to support itself without donations of supplies from the south. So the expense is minimal.

The decline of the Watch is the result snowballing. When Aegon united the Seven Kingdoms he brought an end to the constant wars. This greatly reduced the stream of men being sentenced to serve at the Wall. Which had the effect of making the Watch weaker, which made both it and the Gift more vulnerable to Wildling raids, which increased causalities, which made them even weaker, which increased casualties, and so forth. It's not that the lords just decided one day to stop funding the Watch - they generally weren't doing so anyway unless they lived in the North themselves.

There is some truth to that. However, there was considerable decline even before that. The 1,000 men the Watch has right now cannot even properly man the remaining castles, and the Nightfort is much, much larger than Castle Black. The 10,000 men from Aegon's days were already a Watch in decline. In fact, in the grand old days the NW must have been the largest standing military in all the Hundred/Seven Kingdoms, number tens of thousands of warriors (all black brothers are trained at arms) and a powerful force to be reckoned with (which is why this neutrality thing was so important and they decided that the castles of the Watch wouldn't have walls or defenses against the people south of the Wall). One assumes that the Lord Commander of the NW could have technically conquered the North back before the Starks did it...

Whether prisoners of war/hostages often took the black during the endless wars before the Conquest we don't really know. Nymeria conquered Dorne, that was a exception. The constant wars between the kings for territories in their border regions should have involved the kin of captured nobles and knights paying ransom for them.

And the whole criminal thing is still an echo of the noble calling of the black brothers - convicted fellons are allowed to take the black because this is so noble a calling that even a man facing death should be allowed to follow his heart when he wants to take the black. Manning the Wall is so important for the society of the Hundred Kingdoms (or was in the ancient days) that nothing you do does prevent your peers from allowing you do go there ... meaning even the blackest deeds are washed away when you take the black...

Or at least so I interpret this thing. Because it is quite clear that every man is free in his decision to take the black. Your lord or king cannot force you. They can say 'take the black or face the other sentence I've drawn up for you' and they can refuse to allow you to take the black, but they cannot make you to take the black. You have to declare your intention to that yourself.

[TheNecromancerofMirkwood]

Personally speaking, it was always doomed to eventual destruction because of the "life sentence" of taking the black. Had it been more like the French Foreign Legion, there would have eventually been a ready-reserve force settled on The Gift (and then New Gift) that could be called up at a moment's notice. The "take no wife, have no children" was another stupid move that doomed the organization because it, again, limited the pool of potential new recruits. I'd almost have to wonder if that wasn't something that came later and the original Night's Watch wasn't more loose in its strictures, but was "reformed" into a near-monastic military order and the original concept became swallowed by the newer one. I mean, Samwell Tarly does indicate there are serious inconsistencies in the various histories, where you have knights and the like thousands of years before any such kind of troops would have existed.

[Lord Varys]

58 minutes ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Personally speaking, it was always doomed to eventual destruction because of the "life sentence" of taking the black. Had it been more like the French Foreign Legion, there would have eventually been a ready-reserve force settled on The Gift (and then New Gift) that could be called up at a moment's notice. The "take no wife, have no children" was another stupid move that doomed the organization because it, again, limited the pool of potential new recruits. I'd almost have to wonder if that wasn't something that came later and the original Night's Watch wasn't more loose in its strictures, but was "reformed" into a near-monastic military order and the original concept became swallowed by the newer one. I mean, Samwell Tarly does indicate there are serious inconsistencies in the various histories, where you have knights and the like thousands of years before any such kind of troops would have existed.

I don't think so because there is a lot of truth in the words Aemon says. Families at the Wall would fail as a defense against all the realms of men, just as families living alongside families from the other Hundred Kingdoms (many of which potentially hostile and mortal enemies of the others) wouldn't work.

The whole life sentence thing goes back to it being a committment for life - which is also part of many of the other holy orders you can take.

Instead, it seems taking the black simply was a tremendous honor for any man in the Hundred Kingdoms for millennia - even at a point when they slowly started to doubt whether those Others actually existed.

The idea that especially the Andals could have changed the Watch when the Wall is close to the North where the Andals never ruled - and where the First Men lords lived who always supported the Watch - doesn't make much sense. If the Northmen taking the black originally never swore an oath of celibacy then the Andals in the Watch couldn't have forced the Northmen to do that.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The part that was likely not thought through properly was Martin’s offhand reference to the 10000 men in Aegon’s day, just because it made Aemon’s point to Jon more dramatic in that scene. Frankly, if men don’t remember a legendary threat from 8000 years ago today, they wouldn’t have taken it any more seriously when it was 7700 years in the past. 10000 men sitting at the edge of the world guarding against a ragtag bunch of wildlings who can’t even muster 10,000 armoured warriors, and with a 700 foot Wall added to boot. With powerful armies waiting as backup in lands of lords Karstark, Umber, Mormont and every other Northern lord.

Nope, the 10,000 men were ridiculous 300 years ago. But Aemon needed the Lord Commander to have 10,000 men to make him a credible threat to Aegon the Dragon, else the moral lesson would not have had the impact Martin desired it to have on Jon in that scene.

[TheNecromancerofMirkwood]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think so because there is a lot of truth in the words Aemon says. Families at the Wall would fail as a defense against all the realms of men

History shows Men fighting for hearth and home are willing to endure far more than men fighting for a cause they have no clue or don't care about...

Plus, the Night's Watch is inspired the Roman Limitanei who manned Hadrian's Wall. In the latter years of the Empire they had families and their sons often followed them as the ready-reserve militia to repel Hibernian-Scot and Pict raiders.

 

Quote

The whole life sentence thing goes back to it being a commitment for life - which is also part of many of the other holy orders you can take.

Except you're more likely to have men desert or rebel because they cannot find respite from "duty". Again, there is land on the Gift and New Gift that could have served as farmsteads for men who fulfilled their duty to the Night's Watch, allowing them to supply excess grain and foodstuffs (or whatever if they were blacksmiths, etc). Some may choose to continue as lifetime members of The Night's Watch since they may like where they are, etc.

 

Quote

The idea that especially the Andals could have changed the Watch when the Wall is close to the North where the Andals never ruled - and where the First Men lords lived who always supported the Watch - doesn't make much sense. If the Northmen taking the black originally never swore an oath of celibacy then the Andals in the Watch couldn't have forced the Northmen to do that.

Except celibacy is an Andal religious custom as practiced by those who follow The Seven, not one associated with the religion of the First Men. Again, it feels more like the kind of military order like the Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon, the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem or the Military and Hospitaller Order of St. Lazarus. I mean the Wildlings don't practice celibacy and they're most certainly First Men.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Hi, guys, wanna go sit in the cold and get bossed around all day, with no sex for the rest of your life? Want to wear drab, dreary black and ride out into colder climates to deal with cannibals, rapists and other such bastards?

 

Anyone? Anyone at all? No? How about you guys threatened with loss of limb and life for the crimes you committed? Half of you want to go? That’ll have to do, there’s a 14 day refusal still once you’re up there if you don’t like being picked on by the Master of Arms or don’t fancy carrying the Lord commanders shit away. Don’t forget the no sex clause, there’s a whorehouse just down the road but we don’t like that kind of thing. Only a quarter of you now? Oh, well, saddle up then, we need all we can get our blokes keep getting poked full of holes. Hey! Where you going?

[TheThreeEyedCow]

4 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

Hi, guys, wanna go sit in the cold and get bossed around all day, with no sex for the rest of your life? Want to wear drab, dreary black and ride out into colder climates to deal with cannibals, rapists and other such bastards?

 

Anyone? Anyone at all? No? How about you guys threatened with loss of limb and life for the crimes you committed? Half of you want to go? That’ll have to do, there’s a 14 day refusal still once you’re up there if you don’t like being picked on by the Master of Arms or don’t fancy carrying the Lord commanders shit away. Don’t forget the no sex clause, there’s a whorehouse just down the road but we don’t like that kind of thing. Only a quarter of you now? Oh, well, saddle up then, we need all we can get our blokes keep getting poked full of holes. Hey! Where you going?

Yeah. This. 
Whatever the reasons are for having an enormous wall and a group of devout and celibate men patrolling it religiously, have all been lost to time. I suspect that there is a method to their madness. There is a reason that these men should have no family. It's just buried under the centuries. I'm certain that there is more to learn and we'll probably know more once George stops hiding the 'others' from us. It's clear that this wall isn't designed to keep out Wildlings.  

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

History shows Men fighting for hearth and home are willing to endure far more than men fighting for a cause they have no clue or don't care about...

But they did know. They did built the Wall. They knew about the Others and what they did to their ancestors. They knew why they built that Wall in this insane effort and why they built it ever higher and higher.

4 hours ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Plus, the Night's Watch is inspired the Roman Limitanei who manned Hadrian's Wall. In the latter years of the Empire they had families and their sons often followed them as the ready-reserve militia to repel Hibernian-Scot and Pict raiders.

That might be. Yet, if they NW ever had had families then the need for new volunteers would have dropped. The Watch would have become a hereditary establishment, with sons following their fathers. It didn't. But if it happened then no power on earth could have forced them to give that up and turn celibate.

The reason why the Watch abandon their families is simple. If they still had families they would (1) care more about them than the task at hand, making it impossible to work together with the enemies of their families who also took the black (who would have been everywhere in the Watch back when there were still the Hundred Kingdoms), and (2) if they had had families up at the Wall they would have cared more about them and their safety in a time of crisis. You don't want any family with you when the Others and wights attack the Wall.

4 hours ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Except you're more likely to have men desert or rebel because they cannot find respite from "duty". Again, there is land on the Gift and New Gift that could have served as farmsteads for men who fulfilled their duty to the Night's Watch, allowing them to supply excess grain and foodstuffs (or whatever if they were blacksmiths, etc). Some may choose to continue as lifetime members of The Night's Watch since they may like where they are, etc.

Apparently the Watch rarely, if ever rebelled. The Gift is for the peasants of the Watch, not the Watch themselves. They are warriors, not farmers.

4 hours ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Except celibacy is an Andal religious custom as practiced by those who follow The Seven, not one associated with the religion of the First Men. Again, it feels more like the kind of military order like the Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon, the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem or the Military and Hospitaller Order of St. Lazarus. I mean the Wildlings don't practice celibacy and they're most certainly First Men.

The Watch isn't a religious order. It is a military order which is not religious in nature. Celibacy isn't necessarily something the Andals invented.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think the reason for the celibacy was born in the Long Night, when the Watch first discovered the way in which the Others procreate. By using the life force of a newborn child to raise another Other. So by keeping babies from the Wall, the idea was that the Others got robbed of their source of procreation. 

But the Wildlings messed that up, by resettling the dead lands in the centuries after the Long Night, but before the Wall was fully established -  invalidating the value of celibacy among the Watch.

[TheNecromancerofMirkwood]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yet, if they NW ever had had families then the need for new volunteers would have dropped. The Watch would have become a hereditary establishment, with sons following their fathers. It didn't. But if it happened then no power on earth could have forced them to give that up and turn celibate.

Except they WOULD still need new recruits (we're talking about a wall hundreds of miles long) and not every former member of The Nights Watch would have sons that would either follow in their footsteps (maybe they remained yeoman farmers, became Maesters or the like). And if you think people will not give up marriage and turn to celibacy, might I suggest you study the early Christian church and the change to a celibate priesthood centuries after the establishment of the Christian religion.

Quote

The reason why the Watch abandon their families is simple. If they still had families they would (1) care more about them than the task at hand, making it impossible to work together with the enemies of their families who also took the black (who would have been everywhere in the Watch back when there were still the Hundred Kingdoms), and

Baloney. Again, history shows men will fight for hearth and home much more readily than they will for something they don't believe in or know about.

Quote

(2) if they had had families up at the Wall they would have cared more about them and their safety in a time of crisis. You don't want any family with you when the Others and wights attack the Wall.

Yes, they would have cared about them, making them stay at their post longer to ensure their loved ones were safe.

Quote

Apparently the Watch rarely, if ever rebelled.

Or the rebellions were long forgotten? Remember, Sam says there can't have been as many Lord Commanders as claimed because the records simply don't confirm it (by a margin of 30%, which is a gigantic amount).

Quote

The Gift is for the peasants of the Watch, not the Watch themselves. They are warriors, not farmers.

Seriously, does the term "Swords into plowshares" not ring a bell? Again, the Night's Watch doomed itself by being stupidly restrictive .

Quote

The Watch isn't a religious order. It is a military order which is not religious in nature. Celibacy isn't necessarily something the Andals invented.

It most certainly is a military order...but celibacy is most certainly a RELIGIOUS institution of the Andals and once they became members of The Watch, they would have brought their religion with them. Over time it could very well have caused a "reform" of The Watch. As it is, there is no canon answer since there haven't been any POV characters from the earliest days of Westeros.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Except they WOULD still need new recruits (we're talking about a wall hundreds of miles long) and not every former member of The Nights Watch would have sons that would either follow in their footsteps (maybe they remained yeoman farmers, became Maesters or the like). And if you think people will not give up marriage and turn to celibacy, might I suggest you study the early Christian church and the change to a celibate priesthood centuries after the establishment of the Christian religion.

Now, if the Wall and Watch was collectively owned by families then there would be no need for volunteers from anywhere. Why should any Dornishmen give a damn about the well-being or personal interest of some family up at the Wall? The Watch would have become hereditary lordships, not remained the military order it was.

Celibacy was enforced on the western priesthood through a long process to ensure church property remained church property. A NW being stuck with what little property they had and not acquiring more and more property through the ages as the church would have essentially no incentive to change itself into a celibate order.

In fact, it is utterly ridiculous the Andals would have any influence on the Watch which was an institution the Andals couldn't even sent men without the permisson of the Kings in the North and Northern lords. Recruits going up north to the Wall would have to cross the North if they were to go there by foot or on horseback.

The Northmen never became andalized nor did do they follow the Seven. They would know their ancestors lived with their families at the Wall and they would have not suffered it to make this a lifelong celibate prison sentence if that hadn't been the way it always was.

3 minutes ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Baloney. Again, history shows men will fight for hearth and home much more readily than they will for something they don't believe in or know about.

The founders of NW knew the Others existed. And their descendants would have known/believed that for many centuries.

3 minutes ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Seriously, does the term "Swords into plowshares" not ring a bell? Again, the Night's Watch doomed itself by being stupidly restrictive.

They did always have their own smallfolk. There was no need to become peasants themselves. The NW is like a powerful monastery having their own peasants and serfs work for them.

3 minutes ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

It most certainly is a military order...but celibacy is most certainly a RELIGIOUS institution of the Andals and once they became members of The Watch, they would have brought their religion with them. Over time it could very well have caused a "reform" of The Watch. As it is, there is no canon answer since there haven't been any POV characters from the earliest days of Westeros.

We actually don't know whether the Andals knew/cared about celibacy back in Andalos (whatever stories we get from their time back there doesn't mention any of that). The first proper septons and septas we meet show up in Westerosi history and whether their vows were originally Andal or influenced by the vows of the NW (like the Kingsguard vows later were) is by no means clear.

Westerosi culture is an amalgamation of First Men, Andal, and Rhoynar (in Dorne) influences as can be seen, for instance, by the First Night. Something that goes back to the First Men but was adopted by the Andals in various territories they conquered.

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think the reason for the celibacy was born in the Long Night, when the Watch first discovered the way in which the Others procreate. By using the life force of a newborn child to raise another Other. So by keeping babies from the Wall, the idea was that the Others got robbed of their source of procreation. 

That is actually a pretty good idea I never considered. It sounds plausible that the First Men back at the end of the Long Night knew what the Others originally were (after all, for there to be any Others many First Men must have given their children to them or existing Others must have stolen them), and if it is not possible to transform an adult man into an Other (or use him in a ritual to create an Other) then it would make sense that the men founding the NW would not want to have (m)any children near the Others.

[Arthur Peres]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think the reason for the celibacy was born in the Long Night, when the Watch first discovered the way in which the Others procreate. By using the life force of a newborn child to raise another Other. So by keeping babies from the Wall, the idea was that the Others got robbed of their source of procreation. 

But the Wildlings messed that up, by resettling the dead lands in the centuries after the Long Night, but before the Wall was fully established -  invalidating the value of celibacy among the Watch.

You just blowed my mind. Never thought about it and sounds very reasonable.

[Buried Treasure]

Oh I don't buy the theory is babies being turned into Others at all, that is just a superstition of Craster's wives. When the cold came and he didn't have a boy to leave out he'd sacrifice livestock - are we to believe there are sheep Others too?

The forbidding of wives is part of the structure of the society. The ratio of men in the Watch and women in the Gift makes prostitution viable, and while it is not officially permitted it is knowingly tolerated. Marriage would require a greater ratio of women to be supported, and the Starks would have even less support than they do because gifts or taxes to provision the people at the Wall would be supporting not just men sworn to the neutral NW but to their wives and children who owe fealty to Winterfell.

And where would these women to marry come from? When there aren't famines or plagues, then war and exile serve to bleed off the pressure of excess men who would otherwise have no place - who don't stand to inherit or take the family trade. Women are lost instead to childbirth; war and exile aren't never to relieve the other kingdoms and regions of excess women - those women stay and marry the sons and brothers left behind.

As for why the NW has declined since Aegon's time, @TedBear said it upthread - Essos. The criminal element can flee there, as we have seen with several examples in the books. Furthermore, since the creation of the Golden Company there has been an alternative to the NW for honourable exile. Look at their roster of lords (JonCon), bastards (Franklyn Flowers) and wannabes (Rolly Duckfield) and say none of them might have joined the Watch is the GC had never been formed.