Careerchat IV

[S John]

Re: PhD’s - if I could make my same salary and do one in my field, I would. I feel like, correctly or not, nothing quite expresses the concept of ‘expert’ in a given field to the general public like having a PhD does. I fully confess that the idea of being Dr. Otter has significant appeal to me, even if it serves no practical purpose.

It’s unlikely that I’ll ever go that route because I am now in a family situation where can no longer afford to sacrifice my income - and that’s totally OK.

But I will say that my ‘I won the lottery’ plan would be to work toward a PhD out of pure interest and then spend the rest of my life as a tweed jacketed sit about with a well appointed private study who splits time between Europe and his estate in the the Virginia foothills.

[Iskaral Pust]

@Triskele you have two different issues ahead of you.  

If the higher-up wants to ask you whether you were unhappy about X or Y, then that’s an exit interview.  Decide in advance what you’re willing to say in an exit interview — don’t get into an uncontrolled rant.  I would overall keep it positive and not be influenced by any of the quotidian frustrations.  Keep the emphasis on career growth and opportunity, which implicitly means pay too.

OTOH if they want to persuade you to stay, then be very clear about what it would take: role, comp, responsibilities, etc.  It’s ok to decide that there is a number that would make you stay (this isn’t Indecent Proposal), but think big.  The numbers you mention sound like they’re nice to have right now, but you’re not thinking about the growth in your value over the next five years.  If you stay now, then they are buying your future development too.  Make sure there’s a clear path for how that will be compensated too.  Don’t just bring forward your next five pay raises to today and then get stuck indefinitely at the new pay level.

@Chataya de Fleury yes, I accepted a counter offer once.  It worked out well enough because I negotiated a new role and relocation that gave me the space/opportunity I wanted.  I still left that firm two years later, but those were two good years of building my experience and value.  They paid me well and that wasn’t an issue either way.  But I was only open to that counter-offer because I had some reservations (well founded, as it turned out) about the health of the firm who made me an offer — they didn’t collapse or anything, but they did retrench in the years after the Financial Crisis (it wasn’t Lehman Brothers, but not a million miles away either).

[Iskaral Pust]

@Triskele I want you to draw a line graph for yourself.  X-axis is years of your career from start to retirement, y-axis is total comp.  Draw three lines that represent a not-great, a middling and a very good career outcome for you in your chosen field.

If you don’t already know enough to draw that, then go learn more quickly. 

Look at the gap between those lines.  How much does your current employer vs new employer change your odds of being on one line or another?

Don’t fixate on the gap between lines now in the early years.  But the gap should widen significantly over time (if not, choose a new career).  Look at the total area difference — yes, do some quick integral calculus in your head — below the lines over a full career.

Most professions eventually offer a steep rate of comp growth, usually at least 10 years in when your accumulated knowledge and experience compound through a whole new level of productivity.

Make your career decisions in the early years based on how they help you maximize the high value period in the future.

 

[Iskaral Pust]

11 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Talked to other boss who really seems to want to pay me more if that's all it is, says other big people are freaked out I'm leaving, etc...left it with thinking about it for a few days but does seem all but assured that I could get a counter-offer that exceeds the new offer by some margin.  Feels slightly icky though.  Really not sure how I'm going to figure it out.  Luckily the world outside is completely stable, and there's nothing else to worry about.

These are champagne problems to have.  Enjoy it. 

[HoodedCrow]

We have an expression that you don’t usually get more money than you ask for. Be icky and enjoy being in the catbird seat. If you ask for too much( unless it’s insane) they will probably counter, because it’s easier than calling number two and they have already decided on you. Yahoo!

[baxus]

11 hours ago, Triskele said:

Talked to other boss who really seems to want to pay me more if that's all it is, says other big people are freaked out I'm leaving, etc...left it with thinking about it for a few days but does seem all but assured that I could get a counter-offer that exceeds the new offer by some margin.  Feels slightly icky though.  Really not sure how I'm going to figure it out.  Luckily the world outside is completely stable, and there's nothing else to worry about.

If the only problem you have at your current company is money-related, then your decision should be simple enough. You go to whoever offers you more money.

On the other hand, if there are other problems that getting paid more money won't solve then it's not as clear.

Regarding feeling icky, I see no reason why you should feel that way. At the end of the day, you probably haven't been fantasising about working for your current (or potentially you next) employer. It's a job that might or might not be interesting, fulfilling and all that, but the bottom line is that you probably wouldn't be doing it if you won the lottery. If you would even then, then there's your answer right there.

[Datepalm]

On 9/17/2020 at 4:38 AM, baxus said:

Glad to hear it's working out well for you. It's just that I've seen some PhDs whose stories were quite different.

I'm currently really happy with my in-progress PhD, after being extremely nervous going into it. A big part of it is that the international mobility and general cachet - and actual training, once in a while - of the PhD has helped me land a lot of consulting work that may translate into the kind of job I think I would be extremely happy with, maybe more so than most academic positions. This is also after finding out my field at least is not all that saturated, and that most (though not all) of my program's graduates do find academic jobs, if they want them (many don't.) 

Then the PhD itself, so far, has actually been a really stable, and even relatively well paying position compared to my BA/MA years, and probably even compared to what my career would be looking like if I had stayed in Israel and been currently working for a local firm as a junior planner or the like. Except my current environment is way more interesting and supportive and is opening, rather than closing, doors. So it's been a really good thing both personally and professionally so far, but this is all knowing - even as I started - that professor positions are scarce, not all that great even if you can get them, and very possibly not what I want.

[Plessiez]

 

On 9/14/2020 at 7:59 AM, baxus said:

Maybe this should be taken to a new thread altogether, but what @Starkess said really got me thinking about PhD. Not getting one, since that was never my thing but the reasons people are getting one. I mean, I thought that the point of getting a PhD was to either go into academia or to do some big research and stay at the forefront of your field.

As Altherion says, there simply aren't enough open positions in academia for anything but a minority of people who do a PhD to end up in a full time academic job, even if they all wanted one.

A few of the people I did my PhD with (a bit over five years ago, now) are still working in academia, but most of us are working elsewhere, primarily in finance or in government/public sector roles where having a PhD is (maybe) marginally useful but is very rarely a requirement of the position.  And if anything, I'm surprised there are as many still in academia as there are; the filtering process just going from postgraduate study to early career postdoc positions is pretty brutal (both in terms of the reduction in places available, and in the sheet amount of extra effort and flexibility needed).

But honestly, I never thought of doing a PhD as part of a career plan in the first place: doing a PhD was something I was doing instead of starting a career.  I had a funded studentship, which meant I had enough money to live reasonably well on, and in exchange I got to spend most of my time studying and researching things I found interesting.  Seemed like a pretty good deal to me at the time, and still does.  (My current job pays rather better, but if it didn't then I wouldn't be doing it.)

On 9/14/2020 at 7:59 AM, baxus said:

A lot of people I know did it for some ego-related reasons and so that they can say they have it

... you mean telling strangers on the internet you have a PhD isn't the whole point?

There have been a handful of times when it's been quite satisfying to pull the whole "um, it's Doctor, actually..." card.  As S John says, it's a nice shorthand for "no, seriously, I am an expert on this", even though often the 'this' in question has not been particularly linked to the actual subject of my PhD.  (Frankly, most of the times I've done this I could have just been bluffing: very rarely has anybody responded by asking to see evidence.)

[Iskaral Pust]

8 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Real talk though - I need some advice, but I don’t really know the question I'm trying to ask 

I guess it's this: I'm trying to do some really revolutionary stuff in my field, stuff that no one else is doing. Right now, my career is a pretty shitty one - low pay floor, low pay ceiling. If my reforms are able to get off the ground, I've calculated that they could increase our divisional revenues between 300-500% within 24-30 months, with potentially even larger gains if some other things I'm working on pan out.

So, my overall goal is to change the perception of my industry to make it more a "real" career, instead of a collecting place for burnouts. I want to propose things that will increase the prestige of the field, and commensurately, the pay structure. Is delivering on the promised revenues enough to say "Hey, you all should really be paying us what we're really worth since you literally couldn't do this without us", or would I need to bring even more ammunition to bear? 

Yes, it’s usually enough to deliver significant new revenue in order to get your business proposal supported.  

Make sure that the revenue growth will be sustainable and profitable.  So be prepared for questions around cost of acquisition, total addressable market, operating capacity and implications for operating costs (will it require large investment to increase or adapt capacity), assumptions around growth of market and/or growth of market share, and whether there will be a moat — how to prevent competitors from copying you and driving down your market share and margins.

[A True Kaniggit]

First day next Monday! (They were waiting for the results of a drug test)

And this gives me an excuse to go shopping for a couple outfits this weekend.

I currently only own two things that can be described as “business casual”. 

Edit: Though I am sad this will be the last week of me babysitting the 4 y/o niece.

[Iskaral Pust]

I’m absolutely crushing it at work.

It’s always the same with a new role: the first few months are needed to get acclimated, get to know people, get a clearer picture of what you’ll be doing, and how it will fit in this new place, evaluate your team members, persuade people of your vision and start laying groundwork everywhere.  But it’s all a bit awkward with unfamiliar territory, new culture and a learning curve.

And then, after six months or so, results start flowing in, everyone gets more comfortable and confident, the gaps in knowledge are closing and you can start aiming higher and higher.

Of course, I’ve picked a very bad time to be so awesome at my job.  I expect that COVID means a smaller bonus pool this year, both for financial prudence and to avoid the vulgarity of big payouts while the world suffers.  I’ll need to improve my timing, but still glad to be knocking the leather off the ball here. 

[Iskaral Pust]

29 minutes ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

@Iskaral Pust - I am desperately hoping for my full bonus this year, despite some missteps. No serious missteps, thank goodness...just ones that come with being new to an industry.

My full bonus will pay off my credit cards and a good student loan chunk (kid’s student loans) and would be sooooo good. 

I’ve committed to some image management this year in that I’m getting a facelift. Age discrimination has been proven to start for women at age 30. My profile pic is last year, and I’d had a neck lift, but I had to have the photographer photoshop my fucking jawline.

i had a recruiter tell me that I should start thinking of age discrimination, and I told him to look at my resume again - I have no more than 15 years of experience, and that would be 10, but I wanted to include a very long-term job and also the PwC experience. And I don’t have the year of graduation on my resume. I was like “seriously, 70 year old dude? You’re gonna mansplain to ME on age discrimination and how to avoid it?”

I’m sorry to hear that’s still a factor.  

I see a lot of companies trying to retain and advance women in their 30s and 40s because the senior ranks get so male dominated that it makes a mockery of their Diversity & Inclusion.  It’s easy to have lots of women in minor roles, especially admin assistants, HR, etc, but it’s much harder to have enough women in senior roles that are meaningful and visible. 

Perhaps you need a different recruiter to play to your strengths.

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

My temp contract’s been extended to March (as a Strategic Workforce Planning Analyst). My boss hopes to make it permanent, but if that doesn’t happen I’ll revert back to my base post in Resource Management. 
Just realised I’ve been with this organisation for 18 years (initial 14 months as an agency temp), in three roles.

Also learned I’ll be working from home until at least the end of March.

[Alarich II]

6 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Age discrimination has been proven to start for women at age 30.

The mind boogles. As an employer myself (I mostly employ accountants and tax specialists, 80% women), I find that the most productive age is between 35 and 55 - the experience really kicks in, the kids are big enough and the likelihood of more is rapidly decreasing, most people are through with their youthful workplace relationship-shenanigans and start acting like functional grown ups. They are usually more settled, will start to value mutual loyalty and build better client-relationships.

Then again, I have second hand witnessed and incident of sexual harrassment at a Big4 company, and afaik it never had any consequences. So I absolutely believe that age and look discrimination against women starts fairly early. From a purely productive pov it makes no sense, but once you have a certain mindset at the top, this shit will not go away.

[Iskaral Pust]

On 10/4/2020 at 9:01 PM, Chataya de Fleury said:

I cut off The Harasser on LinkedIn. 

He popped up in my LinkedIn feed again. A young female recruiter posted “Hot Job Alert!” and the Neanderthal replied “Hot alert, huh?” Unfollow, Unconnect. Ugh. 

The only way he can now get in touch with me is through calling my direct line at the office, which goes to my cell phone. And if that happens, I *am* filing a sexual harassment complaint with his employer.

His number is actually blocked on my cell phone, but if he rings through the office line (which is automatically switched over to my cell phone) I’m not sure. 

for those who aren’t aware of this, I had posted about it in the dating thread of all places, because I didn’t know the careerchat thread still existed, and I suppose in *his* mind we were on a date?? I looked back over the e-mails and I can’t figure out how he thought that, because it was 100% business until he had his 5th Tito’s vodka 

I don’t follow the dating thread so I don’t have any back story here.  But if someone is being that skeevy, after everything #metoo did to draw boundaries, then lower the boom on him.  It sounds like he has already transgressed plenty. 

[A True Kaniggit]

You know, I like not being a supervisor. I don't have to worry about evaluations, or anything else of consequence. I just have to take care of my own little area.

Do I get paid as much? No. But it's still pretty nice. I think I'll give this place 3 years.

I've lost enough hair as it is.

[A wilding]

8 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

You know, I like not being a supervisor. I don't have to worry about evaluations, or anything else of consequence. I just have to take care of my own little area.

One of the good things about working in IT is that in 30 years I have been able to escape becoming any sort of manager. Even if it required nifty footwork once or twice.

[Iskaral Pust]

20 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

You know, I like not being a supervisor. I don't have to worry about evaluations, or anything else of consequence. I just have to take care of my own little area.

Do I get paid as much? No. But it's still pretty nice. I think I'll give this place 3 years.

I've lost enough hair as it is.

I just finished doing my first year-end evaluations for my new team.  It takes a lot of extra effort to do it well.  I’ve found that it goes better when you’ve already got a good relationship on goals, expectations, career path and progression over time rather than just focused on current year, and feedback throughout the year plus managing the understanding of the company’s total performance.  But that all takes a lot of time.

[BigFatCoward]

 

Wrong thread. 

[Jaxom 1974]

Alright. Covid is getting me furloughed at least six weeks starting after Thanksgiving and there is no true guarantee that I'm gonna get a call back because no one still knows what college campuses will look like come the spring. And I know my section of the business is not coming back any time soon...might be time to find a new career path, even if I don't really want to...