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Careerchat IV


Stannis Eats No Peaches

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@Iskaral Pust i like way you have spelled all of it out to make it relatable.

the hours areb what the job is. i have always put in long hours as a chef. that is kind of the deal. our industry is a bit broken in that regard. 

he has a larger dream for me as corporate chef of his growing restaurant group but that transition is dependent upon contracts being signed and investors handing over cash. it would be a role that would pay more to my expectations but not a role that actually excites me. it would satisfy my need to bring order and systems to kitchens and to mentor chef teams though. 

that is all cool sounding but i still want to cook. i still want to create and express myself. i still have things i want to share culinary with  guests.

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like a bechamel the plot had thickened. 

the incoming chef du cuisine i wasn't too thrilled about bailed on the position. owner has now taken my advice and is using a recruiter to fill the position properly. 

we had hired a very very good floor manager stealing her away from another michelin star restaurant. she lasted 1 week and quit. she was suffering anxiety issues with the stress of our restaurant. 

a cook quit right before service. he said he just couldn't keep up. i got to work his station plus my own as we simply have no backup.

we debuted 5 new dishes last night that were absolute struggles to get right. 

this weekend one of the other remaining two cooks begins a 6 day vacation. we have very solid bookings. 

only my personal and professional pride keeps me going. i am mentally preparing myself for more 15 hour days of slogging through prep and service.

but, at least i have a job?

 

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Looking for some advice on how to phrase a response to something that was said to me (spoken in a remote meeting AND written in a follow up email) by my HoD. I need to rebutt what was said but I need to get the tone right.

Last week I had a long awaited 1:1 with my HoD covering topics like 'what is my future here/are there opportunities for me to advance' etc. In preparation for the meeting I emailed some notes on what topics I wanted to discuss - we have been working on different teams since April 2020 and haven't met in the flesh since then. One of things I mentioned was that I do most of the training of staff and visitors and could this be acknowledged on my JD and that I would happily take some additional responsibility too. I also said that I had taken the industry standard qualification in training (self funded and in my own time). My HoD said they didn't see this as a role for me, they would rather I focus on X instead - which is fine, it was only a suggestion and I am genuinely not that fussed. HOWEVER, they said they were disappointed that I had not told them I was doing the training qualification. I reiterated that it was in my own time and I paid for it myself. It did not in any way affect my work, nor did I spend any of my work time on it.

I thought that would be the end of it. But we both sent emails afterwards where we clarified what we had agreed in the meeting (and 90% of this is fine, I am totally happy with what we agreed) and AGAIN she has mentioned that she was disappointed that I didn't tell her I was taking a training course (in my own time that I paid for myself!). I was just slightly annoyed about her response in the meeting but I am absolutely fuming that she has doubled down and mentioned it again in the email.

As a registered healthcare professional and a Chartered Scientist I have certain standards I have to hold myself to outside of work - so yes, if I do something stupid that is a breach of guidance on social media use or if I have a gambling or drug habit then yes, those are things outside of work hours which an employer or my regulatory body can berate me for. But studying a course in my own time? Absolutely not. So far as I am concerned this crosses a line and moves into inappropriate communication between manager and employee.

How should I respond to this email?

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22 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

@Isis I suppose the first question to ask them is 'why is this an issue for you/the organisation'?

'Mind your own business' is always an option as well though. 

Are you in a union? 

Yes, I'm a union rep (specifically H&S). I already decided to contact the workplace rep (i.e. Main union person at work) to discuss it. 

I mean, yeah, I could be rude and say 'mind your own business'. But I'd like to not burn any bridges if possible. 

I was planning to ask for an explanation of why she believes she needed to be informed of something I did in my own time. Because really, it's for her to explain herself here, not me. But I additionally need her to know that what she's said is wholly inappropriate and she's overstepped her role. 

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@Isis

Is there a chance she meant 'I wish we would have had a chance to discuss this first, so we could have reviewed professional training opportunities more suited to our goals for you.' or some such thing. Not that you completed that training, but that you had a desire or expectation that ultimately doesn't align with theirs and something mutually beneficial could have been lined up instead? Of course, she probably should have expressed that, if it's the case. 

 

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2 hours ago, kairparavel said:

@Isis

Is there a chance she meant 'I wish we would have had a chance to discuss this first, so we could have reviewed professional training opportunities more suited to our goals for you.' or some such thing. Not that you completed that training, but that you had a desire or expectation that ultimately doesn't align with theirs and something mutually beneficial could have been lined up instead? Of course, she probably should have expressed that, if it's the case. 

 

This is how I read it too @Isis, but I think your best path here is to ask the HoD why they’re disappointed about this.  Use a non-accusatory tone: “I’m surprised that you are disappointed that I would pursue extra development on my own time and at my own cost.  Can you help me see why?”

Also, do some self-assessment of your feelings here before you go into that conversation.  This sounds like a much bigger deal to you than to the HoD.  It sounds like you have a sense of ownership and of ambition in this area, neither of which are easy to let go.  Do you resent that the HoD did not endorse your ownership and ambition?  Do you feel disrespected because of this?   Does the HoD have a different view of your capabilities/potential than you?  Or a different view of what would be the most valuable contribution to the team? e.g. have you prioritized something that you like but isn’t aligned with HoD’s priorities for the group?  Why did you not share your intention before doing the training?

Make sure you understand the ultimate issue before you start discussing the proximate issue.

To answer your specific question, I don’t think the HoD has over-stepped to express disappointment, unless that manifests as some sort of censure.  Disappointment is just a feeling and everyone is entitled to have them, just not to impose them on others.  I don’t think they could use this as a negative in your performance assessment, but they may view it negatively on how you’re approaching your development plan and how much they want to invest in your development.  That separation of jurisdiction is important.

Best of luck.  

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On 4/8/2021 at 7:06 AM, MercenaryChef said:

like a bechamel the plot had thickened. 

the incoming chef du cuisine i wasn't too thrilled about bailed on the position. owner has now taken my advice and is using a recruiter to fill the position properly. 

we had hired a very very good floor manager stealing her away from another michelin star restaurant. she lasted 1 week and quit. she was suffering anxiety issues with the stress of our restaurant. 

a cook quit right before service. he said he just couldn't keep up. i got to work his station plus my own as we simply have no backup.

we debuted 5 new dishes last night that were absolute struggles to get right. 

this weekend one of the other remaining two cooks begins a 6 day vacation. we have very solid bookings. 

only my personal and professional pride keeps me going. i am mentally preparing myself for more 15 hour days of slogging through prep and service.

but, at least i have a job?

 

If that many people are quitting, and making it more stressful for the stayers to absorb the loss, then it’s time for an intervention with the owner.  Sorry that it has started to spiral.

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21 hours ago, kairparavel said:

@Isis

Is there a chance she meant 'I wish we would have had a chance to discuss this first, so we could have reviewed professional training opportunities more suited to our goals for you.' or some such thing. Not that you completed that training, but that you had a desire or expectation that ultimately doesn't align with theirs and something mutually beneficial could have been lined up instead? Of course, she probably should have expressed that, if it's the case. 

 

It's always good to walk into these conversations with a charitable assumption about the others motives and let them explain themselves. 

I am an employer, and tbh I would be disappointed as well (and I have been in that situation), even if would have avoided putting it in writing. Maybe my reasons will help you in your reply, maybe it doesn't apply at all to your situation:

1. I support and fund extra qualifications and training and if any employee would rather not speak to me about their training and qualification even to a point where it means that they forego employer funding which can easily be in the thousands of Euros, I'd ask myself wether this person actually wants to work with me. On an emotional level, I would probably feel it as a personal slight, that they would't want to discuss their plans with me. But then again, we are a small, more close-knit firm. So there's perhaps an element of personal hurt feelings in there, depending what kind of HoD she is and how her leadership-style is.

2. If know beforehand what the actual qualification plans are, I can discuss which qualifications are useful, which ones aren't and how the training could be integrated in the work, i.e. picking projects, clients and internal tasks accordingly. People who have the kind of motivation to do additional training, self-funded an in their own time are a valuable ressource. They are those who keep the wheels turning. So from an employer perspective, the disappointment is that you have "wasted" a qualification run and are now more likely to go looking for another job, because your qualification doesn't match your focus at work. As an employer you want to channel that motivation into a training that will make an employee with a great work attitude even more valuable - not more likely to quit.  So that would be disappointing in the sense of a missed opportunity to find a more mutually beneficial training and qualification. 

So in summary, I don't think that the expression of disappointment is overstepping as such - especially as you have brought up the topic yourself and have therefore opend the subject to discussion. Your best path forward is probably just asking why she feels disappointed and wait what kind of response you'll get. 

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On 4/11/2021 at 2:01 PM, kairparavel said:

@Isis

Is there a chance she meant 'I wish we would have had a chance to discuss this first, so we could have reviewed professional training opportunities more suited to our goals for you.' or some such thing. Not that you completed that training, but that you had a desire or expectation that ultimately doesn't align with theirs and something mutually beneficial could have been lined up instead? Of course, she probably should have expressed that, if it's the case. 

 

There is always back story. I actually expressed an interest in doing some 'training about training' in 2019. I was told I could do a one day external course (funded by work). As the date drew closer I got told I couldn't do it as someone else was off on leave that day and I had to wait 21 months. I said, 'don't worry, I'm going to do the certificate and fund it myself'. (i.e. course my HoD is upset about now). The response was, 'no, don't do that, you can go ahead and do the one day course. Now, the HoD has official responsibility for training in our department. I can only guess they don't want me treading on their toes. But just because I have the same qualification as them now doesn't devalue theirs!

So, no, there was no money or approval for me to do this training from my employers. Had I gone to my boss and said btw, 'I want to do this course with my own time and money, just letting you know' and they said 'oh no, don't do that' - I still would have done it. It is something I was very interested in doing and I am glad I did it. I have gained skills which I will likely use in doing the training that gets dumped on me in my current role because I am good at it, even though my boss doesn't want to give me credit for that... 

So it's a win: win for my boss - from a service delivery point of view.

Another part of the HoD response was 'I don't see training as part of your reponsibilites, your additional responsibility is health and safety and I would like you to focus on that'. That's fine. I am focused on it. 

But the fact remains that I don't need permission to do personal development with my own time and money when it has zero impact on my work and I am not asking for it to change my role. I am absolutely still performing my agreed role. 

What about if I took a course in flower arranging or creative writing? Am I obliged to discuss that with my boss before I spend my own time and money on it? Where do we draw the line? 

Thank you for the responses, it is definitely useful to get these different perspectives. I appreciate that. I am still musing on my own response...

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On 4/11/2021 at 5:05 PM, Iskaral Pust said:

This is how I read it too @Isis, but I think your best path here is to ask the HoD why they’re disappointed about this.  Use a non-accusatory tone: “I’m surprised that you are disappointed that I would pursue extra development on my own time and at my own cost.  Can you help me see why?”

Also, do some self-assessment of your feelings here before you go into that conversation.  This sounds like a much bigger deal to you than to the HoD.  It sounds like you have a sense of ownership and of ambition in this area, neither of which are easy to let go.  Do you resent that the HoD did not endorse your ownership and ambition?  Do you feel disrespected because of this?   Does the HoD have a different view of your capabilities/potential than you?  Or a different view of what would be the most valuable contribution to the team? e.g. have you prioritized something that you like but isn’t aligned with HoD’s priorities for the group?  Why did you not share your intention before doing the training?

Make sure you understand the ultimate issue before you start discussing the proximate issue.

To answer your specific question, I don’t think the HoD has over-stepped to express disappointment, unless that manifests as some sort of censure.  Disappointment is just a feeling and everyone is entitled to have them, just not to impose them on others.  I don’t think they could use this as a negative in your performance assessment, but they may view it negatively on how you’re approaching your development plan and how much they want to invest in your development.  That separation of jurisdiction is important.

Best of luck.  

Your initial point is exactly what I was planning to do - ask for clarification on why this would be a problem (rather than it being a plus from a business perspective).

In fact, it is the HoD who has the ownership issues here. They are a controlling, micro-managing person. And from this meeting I have discovered that they feel that training belongs to them and they don't want anyone else on their territory (even though it would be beneficial to them and lessen their workload). This issue genuinely was a minor point in a meeting about much bigger things (what is required for my promotion to the next grade; the more senior position I can apply for when the current incumbent retires; my intent to obtain dual registration as a more advanced type of healthcare scientist). So that's another reason it's kind of weird that their response was so negative. It should have just been something we brushed off in the remote meeting, i.e. 'I would have preferred if you had spoken to me about this first' and I say ok. The end. We leave it there. But no! They had to double down on it in the written follow up to the meeting, compounding what I see as an error of judgment on their part.

My HoD's MO is to automatically tell me that I am doing too much and shouldn't take on anything else. Even though I have been saying for YEARS that I am under utilised and under challenged. I literally said in the meeting 'the only challenging thing about my role is the workload'. But the de facto response to any enquiries I make about my development is that they get shut down. Quashed. So this is why I do my own stuff outside of work. Work are totally cool with using all the skills I gain in my wider (outside of work) development. HoD even confirmed this in the same email - how invaluable I have been to help with X, because I have skills nobody else has. They are happy to take from me. They just don't want to give.

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Was successful in my interview few weeks ago, so my secondment as Strategic Workforce Planning Analyst is now permanent (once HR send me the paperwork). Main reason the temp position had to be advertised internally was that its also being upped a paygrade :D

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Hiring people you know. What’s your take on it? Is it unfair?

I’m in the process of trying to get a job in my company for someone who served under me previously in a different career. I know him. He’s a dedicated worker who doesn’t slack off. I’m 100% sure he will do the job above and beyond what is expected of him, and  I’m going to do everything in my power to make sure he gets the position. 
 

Should I feel bad about myself? I’m going to do it anyway. Just need to know if I should feel bad about myself.  

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50 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Hiring people you know. What’s your take on it? Is it unfair?

I’m in the process of trying to get a job in my company for someone who served under me previously in a different career. I know him. He’s a dedicated worker who doesn’t slack off. I’m 100% sure he will do the job above and beyond what is expected of him, and  I’m going to do everything in my power to make sure he gets the position. 
 

Should I feel bad about myself? I’m going to do it anyway. Just need to know if I should feel bad about myself.  

No way you should feel bad. This is what ‘networking’ is all about. You know him from a professional setting. It’s not getting your drinking buddy a job because he’s hilarious after a couple shots. You have confidence in his ability to do the job because you’ve seen him do a different job. The only reason we have headhunters and sites like indeed is to help hiring managers sort out who appears to be qualified for a given position. If you have personally seen those characteristics demonstrated that is more valuable than any blind candidate search or interview process ever could be, IMO.

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1 hour ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Hiring people you know. What’s your take on it? Is it unfair?

I’m in the process of trying to get a job in my company for someone who served under me previously in a different career. I know him. He’s a dedicated worker who doesn’t slack off. I’m 100% sure he will do the job above and beyond what is expected of him, and  I’m going to do everything in my power to make sure he gets the position. 
 

Should I feel bad about myself? I’m going to do it anyway. Just need to know if I should feel bad about myself.  

Definitely good to hire people who you already know are reliable, talented, etc.  That’s so much better than basing a decision on interviews.

One suggestion, though, is to at least look at some other candidates, especially internal colleagues looking for a step upward.  The one downside of everyone hiring someone they already know is that it tends to exclude people at the periphery of the collective network, e.g. young people, women, minorities.

Besides, if your friend arrived into a position that other colleagues didn’t even have a chance at, there could be resentment. 

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I don't know. I have experienced that a couple of times. A new director swoops in, brings a couple of mates from their former company and basically leaves scorched earth behind after a year or two. Then his mates are also gone except for the ones who are even too weak to follow the director again.

There was this one case where the director of sales EMEA came in from our biggest competitor (after the competitor stopped competing in this field) and did what highly payed sales team is supposed to do. Which is apparently raking up a astronomical T&L bill and selling for exactly 0 Euro. After that he has been reorganized away from the company and all of his mates either followed him or moved to other competitors. Leaving a big mess behind and of course no bonus for us because we depend on their sales success.

In short, I will be very careful working with new managers if they bring in their mates. They are like locust.

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well i am no longer employed by my own very rash choice. i walked out last night. never in my career have i walked out of a job. 

yesterday i called a meeting with the owner/chef, exec sous chef and pastry chef. i was very honest with them about my frustrations and mental state. i am completely worn down by the place. there are not enough people to run it properly and some of the ones we do have lack the seriousness and drive i would expect from employees in a kitchen of that caliber. without tooting my own horn i truly carry that kitchen each day. it was weighing heavily on me and i told them that it was not sustainable. i should not in my position be working harder and contributing more to the success of the operation than my boss and the owner.

there are innate issues in the culture of the establishment where employees who may not be good enough are allowed to persist simply out of a mutual loyalty with the chef. he wants people who are loyal to him. he will excuse their abilities and attitudes if there is loyalty. 

he also doesn't pay that well. i took what was offered in september as i needed to work post pandemic and there was the greater promises of bigger things in his expanding operations. these operations i am coming to realize are based on his dreams and desires but not fleshed out well, organized or planned out. i was realizing how much additional work i would need to do to realize his dreams.

our meeting was basically fruitless. the pastry chef who i am close with and is new to the operation recognizes what i was expressing. the other two paid some lip service and little more. 

we battled through getting set up for dinner service as we do each night as there is little focus or sense of urgency among the staff and that comes down from the executive sous chef. they follow his disorganized lead. it feels like herding cats each day. at 4:50 the guests arrived for our very expensive chef's counter experience. i announce it to the team and we keep them in the lobby until five. they sit and i alert the cooks to each bring their respective canapes to the table for plating. one of them owed a wagyu tartare. she is only seasoning it now. we have known for 15 minutes it is needed. in a calm tone i said 'let's have this ready before the guests sit, please.' as is too normal i got backtalk. she tells me how hard she is working and that if i have a problem she can go home. i instead said 'nah. i think i will go.' it was a sudden and emotional response. i calmly rolled up my knives and made for the exit. the exec sous tried to stop me. he asked if he could do anything. i told him the overall professionalism and culture of his kitchen was not something i was interested in trying to rehabilitate anymore and wished him luck.

 

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2 hours ago, MercenaryChef said:

well i am no longer employed by my own very rash choice. i walked out last night. never in my career have i walked out of a job. 

yesterday i called a meeting with the owner/chef, exec sous chef and pastry chef. i was very honest with them about my frustrations and mental state. i am completely worn down by the place. there are not enough people to run it properly and some of the ones we do have lack the seriousness and drive i would expect from employees in a kitchen of that caliber. without tooting my own horn i truly carry that kitchen each day. it was weighing heavily on me and i told them that it was not sustainable. i should not in my position be working harder and contributing more to the success of the operation than my boss and the owner.

there are innate issues in the culture of the establishment where employees who may not be good enough are allowed to persist simply out of a mutual loyalty with the chef. he wants people who are loyal to him. he will excuse their abilities and attitudes if there is loyalty. 

he also doesn't pay that well. i took what was offered in september as i needed to work post pandemic and there was the greater promises of bigger things in his expanding operations. these operations i am coming to realize are based on his dreams and desires but not fleshed out well, organized or planned out. i was realizing how much additional work i would need to do to realize his dreams.

our meeting was basically fruitless. the pastry chef who i am close with and is new to the operation recognizes what i was expressing. the other two paid some lip service and little more. 

we battled through getting set up for dinner service as we do each night as there is little focus or sense of urgency among the staff and that comes down from the executive sous chef. they follow his disorganized lead. it feels like herding cats each day. at 4:50 the guests arrived for our very expensive chef's counter experience. i announce it to the team and we keep them in the lobby until five. they sit and i alert the cooks to each bring their respective canapes to the table for plating. one of them owed a wagyu tartare. she is only seasoning it now. we have known for 15 minutes it is needed. in a calm tone i said 'let's have this ready before the guests sit, please.' as is too normal i got backtalk. she tells me how hard she is working and that if i have a problem she can go home. i instead said 'nah. i think i will go.' it was a sudden and emotional response. i calmly rolled up my knives and made for the exit. the exec sous tried to stop me. he asked if he could do anything. i told him the overall professionalism and culture of his kitchen was not something i was interested in trying to rehabilitate anymore and wished him luck.

 

Hope you find something better quickly.

Did you hear how the night went aftrr your departure?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Mondays are jean days. I’ve been fairly tame for the last seven months shirt wise concerning what I’ve worn with the jeans, (only wearing long sleeve solid colors) but my supervisor has worn some crazy stuff (band T-shirts/motor cycle club shirts/etc.)
 

I’m wearing a cartoon T-shirt in the morning. Let us find out if she is a hypocrite......

Science!
 

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