Jace, Extat Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 The planet is literally on fire. Unappealing allies is the least of my concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 I'd consider that quaintly geocentric, but don't know you well enough to parse it accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, JEORDHl said: Ok then, Machiavella [chuckles] To the bold, soggy, not from what I've read. Most criticism, some of it quite harsh, has more to do with his 'celebration' of the endorsement [Kal's larger point, less the details] I mean, Bernie could've possibly come out relatively unscathed in comparison if his campaign had just taken it in stride and otherwise ignored it. Or maybe not, I don't know. Rather than that it was announced like a point of pride. I follow a lot of black and poc activists and most of them are furious. Absolutely livid. Unlike trans and their allies however, some of the former have expressed a reluctant willingness to pinch their noses. I've seen this said a lot and maybe I'm just not following the right people, but I'm not actually seeing it in practice: it seems that anyone on Twitter that fits these categories who I follow is pretty much still where they were before this happened - those who were already supporting Sanders have continued to do so and those that didn't are using this as evidence of long held concerns that Sanders ignores everything except class. Going into this Sanders was leading among poc, will be interesting to see if that changes after this. I agree that Sanders probabaly could have helped address these concerns by not plugging the Rogan endorsement. I also firmly believe that Sanders is getting much more flak for this than Warren, Biden, Buttigieg or Klobuchar would have gotten over this endorsement. I'm guessing Warren would have gotten some but if he endorsed the other three you'd never have heard a word about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 jace-- absolutely agreed with your principle--though perhaps the leninists fucked up a bit through an overzealous use & discard praxis. jeor-- no doubt. sounds like the sanders campaign needs to hear some well-earned grievances. it would be bad if he were trying to set up a cult of personality, wherein the leader can do no wrong. but if he's just a progressive parliamentarian, we have to expect some dissatisfaction. he's too rightwing for me on his core competency; i am offended by his petit bourgeois dilettantism. he coopts 'socialism' for a set of policy preferences that are inconsistent with the ultimate objective thereof; he is a reformer, a step in the right direction--but risks through intentional half-measures and the unintentional risks that uncooperative coequal branches will result in no legislation, exacerbating the crisis of the present moment that he contends he can resolve, thereby souring 'socialism' unto the fourth generation. again. that said, i think i take his sorry pretense over the current occupant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Christ, it just occurred to me that Rogan probably has a political future if he wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, larrytheimp said: I've seen this said a lot and maybe I'm just not following the right people, but I'm not actually seeing it in practice: it seems that anyone on Twitter that fits these categories who I follow is pretty much still where they were before this happened - those who were already supporting Sanders have continued to do so and those that didn't are using this as evidence of long held concerns that Sanders ignores everything except class. Going into this Sanders was leading among poc, will be interesting to see if that changes after this. This is a good point, larry. I'm winging from memory here [don't hold me to it] but most of those I follow taking umbrage were leaning predominantly Warren anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, sologdin said: jace-- absolutely agreed with your principle--though perhaps the leninists fucked up a bit through an overzealous use & discard praxis. jeor-- no doubt. sounds like the sanders campaign needs to hear some well-earned grievances. it would be bad if he were trying to set up a cult of personality, wherein the leader can do no wrong. but if he's just a progressive parliamentarian, we have to expect some dissatisfaction. he's too rightwing for me on his core competency; i am offended by his petit bourgeois dilettantism. he coopts 'socialism' for a set of policy preferences that are inconsistent with the ultimate objective thereof; he is a reformer, a step in the right direction--but risks through intentional half-measures and the unintentional risks that uncooperative coequal branches will result in no legislation, exacerbating the crisis of the present moment that he contends he can resolve, thereby souring 'socialism' unto the fourth generation. again. that said, i think i take his sorry pretense over the current occupant. I give Sanders a pass on watering down the wine by assuming he’s just using the term as understood by his particular (ie American) audience. Under which consideration it’s actually decently ballsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, larrytheimp said: I've seen this said a lot and maybe I'm just not following the right people, but I'm not actually seeing it in practice: it seems that anyone on Twitter that fits these categories who I follow is pretty much still where they were before this happened - those who were already supporting Sanders have continued to do so and those that didn't are using this as evidence of long held concerns that Sanders ignores everything except class. Going into this Sanders was leading among poc, will be interesting to see if that changes after this. I agree that Sanders probabaly could have helped address these concerns by not plugging the Rogan endorsement. I also firmly believe that Sanders is getting much more flak for this than Warren, Biden, Buttigieg or Klobuchar would have gotten over this endorsement. I'm guessing Warren would have gotten some but if he endorsed the other three you'd never have heard a word about it. Not been on the internet much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 19 minutes ago, sologdin said: jeor-- no doubt. sounds like the sanders campaign needs to hear some well-earned grievances. it would be bad if he were trying to set up a cult of personality, wherein the leader can do no wrong. but if he's just a progressive parliamentarian, we have to expect some dissatisfaction. he's too rightwing for me on his core competency; i am offended by his petit bourgeois dilettantism. he coopts 'socialism' for a set of policy preferences that are inconsistent with the ultimate objective thereof; he is a reformer, a step in the right direction--but risks through intentional half-measures and the unintentional risks that uncooperative coequal branches will result in no legislation, exacerbating the crisis of the present moment that he contends he can resolve, thereby souring 'socialism' unto the fourth generation. again. Eloquently put as always, bud. I'm a passionate outsider myself, who doesn't see any subsequent winning if Bernie does win. Even if the Dems flip the Senate, Bernie would be in for a tough slog and while he's not a sobber, he isn't endearing either. I suspect Warren would meet with more success therein; Biden probably the most. A Biden Presidency isn't capable [imo] of addressing the undercurrent of discontent though. Warren's could, given time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, James Arryn said: Christ, it just occurred to me that Rogan probably has a political future if he wants it. Here's the thing, though, and why I wouldn't dismiss these people out of hand even if they may be odious. You can reason with Joe Rogan on some things. Not everything. I understand why people dislike the man, not a fan myself unless he's interviewing someone I really want to listen to while they're baked. But he will admit to basic facts of our shared universe. That's a start! For the love of god, people! It's a start! That is your ray of hope. Not that Murkowski and Alaska Face are going to let Bolton testify and that that's going to matter in the realm of anyfuckingthing. It's that there are assholes out there like Joe Rogan and his devotees who just don't want to pay taxes and don't like people who are different. Normal assholes who aren't all Nazis. If that's not an ally you can stomach then you're fighting just to lose as prettily as possible. Nobody said life was fair. You think I want some mouthbreathing gamergater who happens to take Rogen seriously sharing in my side's victory over Trump? I mean get the fuck out with this attitude that every person doesn't have a calculus of their own to make and skin in the game. But none of it is going to matter if we keep losing. Suck it the fuck up, people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Have you really hitched your wagon this resolutely, Jace? Bernie or bust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Just now, JEORDHl said: Have you really hitched your wagon this resolutely, Jace? Bernie or bust? No, I'm Democrat or bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 ditto. in 2020, ABT or bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said: No, I'm Democrat or bust. Ok then why give a fuck if Bernie loses support over the Rogan fiasco? Seems nonsensical. The other contenders will have hopefully cottoned some wisdom therefrom and react accordingly should something likewise occur, right? The people who are NOT happy about this aren't going to vote for Trump out of spite. Or is everyone that scared of the seriously fucking douchey Berniebros undermining the Dem nominee again? Just trying to understand the alarm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liffguard Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 25 minutes ago, larrytheimp said: I also firmly believe that Sanders is getting much more flak for this than Warren, Biden, Buttigieg or Klobuchar would have gotten over this endorsement. I'm guessing Warren would have gotten some but if he endorsed the other three you'd never have heard a word about it. This is from Rogan himself, so take it with a firm pinch of salt, but he claims that the Biden and Warren campaigns both requested appearances on his show. It's not like others haven't courted Rogan, Sanders just succeeded. I don't want to defend Rogan, because I really really don't like his output, but has he consistently said things much worse than what's regularly published or broadcast by mainstream media outlets? If Sanders should repudiate Rogan's endorsement (and honestly, maybe he should), then shouldn't Warren also repudiate the New York Times, for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 douchey Berniebros undermining the Dem nominee again? plausible that sanderistas defect to trump if their guy isn't nominated? dunno. maybe part of the concern here is that sanders can rely on some portion of the center without sacrificing on his left. Under which consideration it’s actually decently ballsy. totally. definitely not a craven set of policy preferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Liffguard said: This is from Rogan himself, so take it with a firm pinch of salt, but he claims that the Biden and Warren campaigns both requested appearances on his show. It's not like others haven't courted Rogan, Sanders just succeeded. Both of those camps have denied it. I don't take shit politicians say verbatim, mind, but Rogan is also a consummate bullshit artist with a unique flair for self deprecating, self promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 My concern is over the driving away of potential allies. Be they Sanderites, Rogananians, or indeed both. I want them to come back to the party. But, I also call them out when they're attack other candidates in ways I find unproductive. Because I want whoever the fuck is voting for Klobuchar to also come back to the party. And I really, really, want you all to come back to the party when Joe wins the nom. He ain't my choice, neither. But that's what life's like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 come back to the party when Joe wins the nom. that was kucinich's role in the party--the token pinko hippy who can attract leftists to the otherwise staid bourgeois dems. can't tell if sanders auditioned for kucinich's role and is now trying to step into the spotlight proper, or if the dramatization of all the internecine rage is simply a further meta-theatricality designed to draw the left deeper into the neoliberal project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 19 minutes ago, sologdin said: come back to the party when Joe wins the nom. that was kucinich's role in the party--the token pinko hippy who can attract leftists to the otherwise staid bourgeois dems. can't tell if sanders auditioned for kucinich's role and is now trying to step into the spotlight proper, or if the dramatization of all the internecine rage is simply a further meta-theatricality designed to draw the left deeper into the neoliberal project. Or we're all just dust in the wind, man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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