Is Euron actually a red herring?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So when I re-read Victarion's POV from AFFC, i noticed something fishy about Euron sending Victarion to get Dany. On the surface it's clearly some kind of trap for Victarion to fall in. It's perfectly made to make Victarion try and take Dany for himself and thru some convoluted magic stuff, actually give Euron a dragon. There is just one small problem. Why did Euron tell Victarion what happened to the guy that blew the Dragon Horn? Hear me out. Suppose that Euron send Victarion packing with the dragon horn, without telling him the truth about it's effect. Victarion would, highly predictably, try and steal a dragon for himself, would blow the dragon horn, would die and the dragon would go to Euron. So in such a case Euron shoots 2 bird with one stone. Now Victarion is on the alert about the dragon horn and is trying to tame a dragon by making thralls blow the horn. Even if by some magic bs Euron gets the dragon, in this case Victarion is still alive, so whatever happens Euron is worse off then if he just kept his mouth shut about the fate of the blower.

So this logical mistake on Euron's part is the first reason why I think he's a red herring with no real end game potential. If I'm being honest however there is no other textual evidence (from what I remeber at least) to suggest this (tho there is no evidence that he is a threat besides what he says). There is however some more meta-textual evidence.

The first is that magic was never as wild as whatever Euron is planing (it seems to be something very weird and potent). Given what we know about how magic works in this world (and it being a sword without a handle) I find it very possible that his magic will backfire horrifically for him.

The second would be the fact that there are too many dragon riders. FAegon, Jon Snow, Dany, Euron, the WW and a couple more depending on what theories you believe (for example Varys). So personally I find it far more probable that the 3 dragon riders would be Dany (obviously), Jon Snow and FAegon. And maybe we'll get some resurrected dragons. I don't think Euron will be one of the dragon riders.

Now you might say: ,,Well in that case, what narrative point does Euron serve?". Well I would say he serves 2 points, both being related to FAegon. First off his raiding of the Reach made the Redwyne fleet move into the Sunset Sea, allowing FAegon to land uncontested and not be smashed at sea. The second narrative point is getting the dragon horn to Dany, where I think it will be stolen by Varys when Dany lands in Westeros, allowing FAegon to tame a dragon.

So what do you think? Is Euron just a red herring or is he an existential threat to Westeros?

[McGuv19]

I agree in that Euron won’t be an endgame character. I don’t think he will succeed in taking Oldtown, much less the entire Reach, though I do think he will destroy the Redwyne fleet, making the ironborn ships much more valuable as the only sea fleet in Westeros, aside from Manderly’s and maybe Salladhor Saan’s. I think that Euron has never been to Valyria and doesn’t even know for sure how the magic items he has work, which will not end up going well for him.

[frenin]

Everything Euron says sound so bullshit that is impossible to me not seeing a big fat  liar swindling some hicks.

[chrisdaw]

No Euron is not a red herring. His goal is not to ride a dragon but to become a dragon, that's what his horn does, makes a person's soul fire and allows it to fly. It requires he sacrifice his child to do it, and the bloodline matters, hence why he needs Dany. He will succeed, his soul will manage its way into Drogon and when it does he/Drogon will become the stone beast. The stone beast will not be like a normal dragon, it will reflect Euron's blood and nature, it will not breathe fire and become waterborne (sphinx).

His story will explain how Valyrians were/able to ride dragons, the process of sacrificing children so that relatives can sacrifice themselves to become dragons so that other family members can ride them as humans. And this sets up the series climax, will Dany/Jon sacrifice their child to wake the dragon from stone (turn the stone beast back to a normal fire breathing dragon) to save the world from the Others.

[Lord Varys]

Most definitely not. Euron is played up very deliberately to become the most important mortal/human danger and threat to the good folk of Westeros in the second half of the series.

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So when I re-read Victarion's POV from AFFC, i noticed something fishy about Euron sending Victarion to get Dany. On the surface it's clearly some kind of trap for Victarion to fall in. It's perfectly made to make Victarion try and take Dany for himself and thru some convoluted magic stuff, actually give Euron a dragon.

Actually, I don't think Euron would use such a plan. He wanted to go to Slaver's Bay himself - he only changed his mind because his people were unwilling to go. Sending Victarion is plan B, he didn't want to do that (and we actually get indpendent confirmation that this is so in 'The Forsaken' where Euron himself outlines that he/they are going to his dragon queen at a point where it is not yet clear that they won't).

Euron may have had a plan in motion to ensure Victarion would not betray him - via the dusky woman - but chances are not good that he has some plan to make Victarion give him a dragon somehow via the horn. Because for all his magics he doesn't really understand how Dragonbinder works.

Also, Euron's plan is to lay claim to the Iron Throne via both Dany and the dragons (with him likely becoming a dragonrider, too). The Targaryen queen at his side would give him the legitimacy he needs to take the throne.

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

There is just one small problem. Why did Euron tell Victarion what happened to the guy that blew the Dragon Horn? Hear me out. Suppose that Euron send Victarion packing with the dragon horn, without telling him the truth about it's effect. Victarion would, highly predictably, try and steal a dragon for himself, would blow the dragon horn, would die and the dragon would go to Euron. So in such a case Euron shoots 2 bird with one stone. Now Victarion is on the alert about the dragon horn and is trying to tame a dragon by making thralls blow the horn. Even if by some magic bs Euron gets the dragon, in this case Victarion is still alive, so whatever happens Euron is worse off then if he just kept his mouth shut about the fate of the blower.

Don't think much of Vic's mission relies on the horn stuff. Vic is supposed to fetch Dany and her dragons somehow which means either negotation or, more likely with the Ironborn, abduction. That this is not going to fly is clear, but it could have flown if Euron had taken his entire armada to Slaver's Bay as he intended.

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The first is that magic was never as wild as whatever Euron is planing (it seems to be something very weird and potent). Given what we know about how magic works in this world (and it being a sword without a handle) I find it very possible that his magic will backfire horrifically for him.

I don't think Euron will ever get Dany or any of her dragons - they are far too away from each other and not likely to meet soon - but this doesn't mean he cannot become very powerful at Cersei's side. And his magics will help him with that. He has broken warlocks and stolen their stash of shade of the evening which really seems to fuel whatever magical potential he has. He will use a spell - likely a storm or a summoning of giant krakens or both - to destroy the Redwyne fleet. But his magics might not stop there. We know Melisandre could assassinate people with magic - Euron could do much, much worse.

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The second would be the fact that there are too many dragon riders. FAegon, Jon Snow, Dany, Euron, the WW and a couple more depending on what theories you believe (for example Varys). So personally I find it far more probable that the 3 dragon riders would be Dany (obviously), Jon Snow and FAegon. And maybe we'll get some resurrected dragons. I don't think Euron will be one of the dragon riders.

I don't think Euron will become a dragonrider, either (although he might very well become a dragonslayer in his Valyrian armor, especially if also acquires a Valyrian sword). Dany is likely going to ride Drogon until the end of the series (or until her death which is likely to occur at the end of the series if she dies), the other two dragons are likely to get riders in Slaver's Bay. If Tyrion claims a dragon he would be stuck with that creature until his death, too, likely also at the end of the series or not at all, leaving the third dragon for Jon Snow eventually - but he would only have a chance to claim a dragon in the far future from now, meaning the third dragon could have a succession of riders until he is finally claimed by Jon, starting with Victarion (very unlikely) or Brown Ben Plumm (more likely). Perhaps Aegon claims this dragon after they get to Westeros, perhaps some Volantene or Lyseni with dragonlord ancestors will claim it before they get there. I think both dragons definitely need riders to convince them to leave Meereen/Slaver's Bay and accompany the gang to Westeros. On their own they would not leave and they are far too wild now to simply be caged and transported by ship. The attempt would be a disaster.

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Now you might say: ,,Well in that case, what narrative point does Euron serve?". Well I would say he serves 2 points, both being related to FAegon. First off his raiding of the Reach made the Redwyne fleet move into the Sunset Sea, allowing FAegon to land uncontested and not be smashed at sea. The second narrative point is getting the dragon horn to Dany, where I think it will be stolen by Varys when Dany lands in Westeros, allowing FAegon to tame a dragon.

Such plot points could be accomplished much more easily. Aegon definitely is not going to need the horn to claim a dragon if he is genuine or has some Targaryen/Blackfyre ancestors.

What the point of the horn at all is I really don't know. But I don't think it will work the way it is supposed to. Moqorro very strongly implies that this thing is not going to end well for Victarion...

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So what do you think? Is Euron just a red herring or is he an existential threat to Westeros?

Clearly the latter.

In fact, many people thought Euron was a lot of hot air ... until we got that 'The Forsaken' sample chapter. But even before that I was pretty sure Euron is going to become a major threat by eventually teaming up with Cersei. George would not waste so many pages on this character to just use him as little diversion/plot device. Euron is a much more important character than Roose or Ramsay (who are just placeholders to occupy the gang until the Others finally make their move). But Euron is built up as a really great adversary - he is informed and connected to a lot of things (Dany, the warlocks of Qarth, Valyria, the Faceless Men, and, obviously, the Ironborn), he is very smart and capable, he is a mad psychopath with sadistic tendencies, he is a sorcerer, and he may be a failed greenseer and may have still have greenseer potential.

All that makes him the most dangerous character alive at this point.

As for Oldtown: Nothing in the plot indicates Euron is particularly interested in Oldtown (he wanted to go to Meereen, not Oldtown - right now he is just keeping his men occupied) and I don't think he will really try to raid or conquer it. Instead, I think the Hightowers will bend the knee and do him homage as their king after he crushes the Redwyne fleet and conquers the Arbor. Because then they won't have any other choice if they want to continue the trade which is the backbone of their wealth. Without the Redwyne fleet the Hightowers won't have any chance to get rid of the Ironborn in their waters for the next decade or so - and that only if they could actually build another war fleet without Euron's Ironborn destroying them before they are finished.

[Platypus Rex]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

On the surface it's clearly some kind of trap for Victarion to fall in. It's perfectly made to make Victarion try and take Dany for himself and thru some convoluted magic stuff, actually give Euron a dragon. There is just one small problem. Why did Euron tell Victarion what happened to the guy that blew the Dragon Horn? 

The only problem I see is that we have no idea how the horn really works, or what Euron's plan is.  And until we do, it seems pointless to me to argue that his plan does not make sense.

Generally speaking, his plan seems to be War, Chaos and Death.  And the success of that plan does not necessarily depend on Euron himself having direct control over any one dragon.

[Platypus Rex]

On 1/22/2020 at 7:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

As for Oldtown: Nothing in the plot indicates Euron is particularly interested in Oldtown (he wanted to go to Meereen, not Oldtown - right now he is just keeping his men occupied) and I don't think he will really try to raid or conquer it. 

I think this statement does not go far enough.  There is no good reason to suppose that Euron has spent much time at or near Oldtown at all.  He can keep his men occupied without his actual presence, just as he has done with Victarion.

We know many months elapsed between the time he knocked up Falia Flowers and the time he lashed her to his prow with her tongue cut out, because by the latter point she was visibly pregnant.  Does this mean he has spent 5 months at the Shields and the Arbor?  I don't think so.  

He was headed to Meereen.  He said or hinted as much.  He has been there and back, and now he is returning yet again.  He uses blood sacrifice to ride the winds on his ship of silence.

[Lord Lannister]

As many Ironborn chapters as we're got, especially in Feast, I sincerely hope Martin's going somewhere with that. There's times I think that plot is wasting our time as is. A meaningless conclusion would only beg, why bother including it?

[Megorova]

Euron's nickname is the Crow's Eye, he knows all sorts of magic, and his story is similar to the story of Urrathon Badbrother.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Urrathon_IV_Goodbrother

There's a character named Urrathon in Qarth.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Urrathon_Night-Walker

Quaithe was staying in Qarth for some unknown period of time, prior she met Dany and told her that glass candles are burning in Urrathon's house.

I'm absolutely sure that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar and the Three-Eyed Crow. I think that, same as maester Marwyn and Mirri Maz Duur, in the past Euron was something like Quaithe's disciple. I think that they have some sort of blood-magic-based connection. In my opinion Euron's dark eye, the one that he is covering, is the Three-Eyed Crow's third eye, that's why Euron is the Crow's Eye. It's likely that Euron and Urrathon Night-Walker is the same person. Seems that some years ago, after Quaithe left Asshai and came to Qarth, that's when she met Euron and he became her disciple. But then something happened, and it seems that now they are enemies. Possibly because he is using magic for evil purposes.

Most likely Euron knows that the dragon-binding horn won't work, and thus he sent Victarion on a death mission. Based on Aeron's dreams, it seems that Euron will defeat fAegon and Golden Company, and will temporarely become the King of 7K.

Aeron's dreams from TWOW:

Spoiler

He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.”

“Never. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair!”

“Why would I want that hard black rock? Brother, look again and see where I am seated.”

Aeron Damphair looked. The mound of skulls was gone. Now it was metal underneath the Crow’s Eye: a great, tall, twisted seat of razor sharp iron, barbs and blades and broken swords, all dripping blood.

Impaled upon the longer spikes were the bodies of the gods. The Maiden was there and the Father and the Mother, the Warrior and Crone and Smith … even the Stranger. They hung side by side with all manner of queer foreign gods: the Great Shepherd and the Black Goat, three-headed Trios and the Pale Child Bakkalon, the Lord of Light and the butterfly god of Naath.

And there, swollen and green, half-devoured by crabs, the Drowned God festered with the rest, seawater still dripping from his hair. Then, Euron Crow’s Eye laughed again, and the priest woke screaming in the bowels of Silence, as piss ran down his leg. It was only a dream, a vision born of foul black wine.

 

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

The first dream seems to be about events after Euron will defeat Golden Company (that mound of blackened skulls). And second seems to be after Dany's dragons will burn Euron's fleet, already after Euron will become the King of 7K. Most likely a shadow in a woman's form is Quaithe's "shadow", and her hands are "alive with pale white fire" because she is holding glass candle in her hands, and she's not actually there with Euron in the Iron Throne's chamber, only her "apparition" is there, same as this:

AGOT, Dany IX - "Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade." <- those ghosts is actually one person, Shiera Seastar/Qauithe, and those swords is a glass candle.

ADWD, Dany II - " "What are you doing here? How did you get past my guards?"

"I came another way. Your guards never saw me."

"If I call out, they will kill you."

"They will swear to you that I am not here."

"Are you here?"

"No."

<- Based on all that it seems that when Dany's dragons will burn Euron's Iron Fleet, Quaithe will be spying after Euron by using glass candle. Either that shadow in a woman's form is Quaithe (and she's laughing because Euron, who betrayed her, had lost), which seems to be most likely, or Euron gave glass candle to Cersei (and she's laughing because of what she sees thru that candle, and it's not a happy laugh. If Euron's Iron Fleet was Cersei's last defence, and she even married with him, but then Dany came to Westeros and her dragons burned Euron's ships, then her laugh is maniacal desperate laugh of someone who just now has lost everything because of a younger more beautiful queen, whom Cersei thought to be Margaery, but it turned out that it was Daenerys).

So no, Euron is not a red herring. Both Euron and fAegon seems to be GRRM's parallels to Biblical Anthichrist (the Beast out of the sea).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_(Revelation)#Beast_from_the_sea

Euron is the scarlet beast; Cersei is a harlot who reigns over the kings of the earth; fAegon and Golden Company is the beast with seven heads, one of which was mortally wounded and then healed itself; Varys is the Dragon/Satan who gave authority to the Beast out of the sea; and the False Prophet, the Beast out of the earth, who has lambs horns and dragons voice is Littlefinger (because I think that he is descendant of Aegon IV (that's why he has dragon's voice) and his mistress Falena Stokeworth (their House's sigil is a lamb, that's why he has lambs horns), thru their daughter Jeyne Lothston, whose son with Aegon, the Bastard of Harrenhal is Littlefinger's ancestor and at the same time the founder of House Whent, who were ancestors of Catelyn Tully (which is why all current Starks from younger generation, including Bran and Sansa, are carriers of dragongenes).

GRRM will use Euron as an instrument to get rid of fAegon. Both of them are not "end game characters", they will be offed prior the final battle.

[frenin]

Nah i bet Euron is only a threat Young Griff has to deal with. He's a bluff.

[Narsil4]

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

His goal is not to ride a dragon but to become a dragon

Yea, I think he may intend to recreate Dany's dragon hatching ritual by trying to conduct similar sacrifices. 

Dany = Falia
Drogo/Drogon = Euron
Viserys/Viserion = Victarion
Rhaego/Rhaegal = EurBaby
Mirri Maz Duur = Dusky Woman

Which if it fails might result in a Summerhall-like explosion. 

And if it succeeds.. I'm kinda hoping for a 3 headed drowned-dragon.   

[chrisdaw]

28 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

Yea, I think he may intend to recreate Dany's dragon hatching ritual by trying to conduct similar sacrifices. 

Dany = Falia
Drogo/Drogon = Euron
Viserys/Viserion = Victarion
Rhaego/Rhaegal = EurBaby
Mirri Maz Duur = Dusky Woman

Which if it fails might result in a Summerhall-like explosion. 

And if it succeeds.. I'm kinda hoping for a 3 headed drowned-dragon.   

Yes he is trying to recreate what happened in the tent that lead to Dany's dragons. It resulted in Drogo second lifing a dragon and he wants to do the same.

He doesn't have everything completely set in his mind but he's close or on the right track. He's fact finding, trying to work it all out, he's experimenting. Cragorn was an experiment to see what the horn does, that's why he had an autopsy done. He learned it kills the blower, burns them from inside out.

Falia is another experiment. He's not trying to use Falia and their child to second life a dragon, he's using her/it to try and better understand the process, probably he's going to try and skinchange a kraken out of it (Falia is to be a salt wife, Dany the rock wife, like sisters Falia said). Falia is the prototype for what he intends to do with Dany. I'm unsure if he will get to control krakens, but what I'm confident of is the sacrifice of Falia's child (Aeron's nephew, his blood) will see her and Aeron second life a leviathan after they die (that's the drowned god's Watery Hall).

The horn must be bound in blood, and possibly Euron gave it to Vic hoping Vic would blow it and die and that would bind the horn to Euron because he and Vic both have the same blood. And/Or it's just about more general experimentation, and he's eagerly watching through dusty woman eyes what happens when Vic has the horn blown.

To succeed Euron is going to need his own child to sacrifice (the more dragon blood the better, thus the more Targaryen blood of the mother the better, hence why he wants Dany), his horn to set his soul alight and into flight, and a dragon/egg on hand to "fly" into. And he is going to succeed (though with a child by Arianne, not Dany). Perhaps there will be an explosion, but it will happen during a great storm at the top of the tower/drum at Storm's End, it is the stone beast scene from Dany's HOTU vision.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I think Euron is trying to bring about whatever he is seeing in those visions he's been getting from the shade-of-the-evening. He wants the dragons to conquer, Dany because she has the dragons. Damphair sees him sitting atop a throne of skulls, which pretty much looks to be carnage in his wake, and he sees him as a kraken-like figure sitting the Iron Throne with a mysterious woman beside him, which seems (the kraken) to somewhat align with Moqorro's vision of the tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood. 

Euron has a red priest as a prisoner, which could mean that he knows exactly what the glyphs on the dragon horn mean. I think Cragorn blowing the horn at the kingsmoot was a test run to see how it works and that he is already the master of the horn in which case, Victarion has already lost anyway and that Westeros may have to contend with Rhaegal and Viserion before Dany even arrives in Westeros.

So no, I don't think he's a red herring.

 

[BlackLightning]

On 1/22/2020 at 4:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

Most definitely not. Euron is played up very deliberately to become the most important mortal/human danger and threat to the good folk of Westeros in the second half of the series.

Exactly. Except the second half of the series became the final third of the series lol. Unless Martin has to write another book, Euron only has the time to show up and show out in The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.

Even so, I fully believe that that is enough time for Euron to become the tremendously powerful supervillain that no one (except for Daenerys, Moqorro, Asha, Victarion, Aeron and maybe Samwell) saw coming.

I'm serious. The Others are horrible enough (I'm not convinced that they are evil monsters) but no one is going to be prepared for Euron. I think Euron is going to use Cersei to take the Iron Throne from Aegon while all of the heroes and non-villains are busy elsewhere. Everyone is going to see Euron on the Iron Throne and think "Okay, so now that that's out of the way, let's put down this usurper real"....only for them to get completely blindsided and get their asses kicked.

By the way, I think Euron is a skinchanger. I think Euron possessed Victarion's wife in the same way Bran possesses Hodor and forced her to initiate consensual sex with him. That's probably what Victarion's wife was trying to tell Victarion. And the fact that Euron's entire crew is comprised of mutes with no sense of agency and personality and nothing in common with each other or Euron. Yeah...the moment Euron finds a way to amplify his powers will be awful. Talk about a puppet state. But hey...it gives Bran something to do.

In any case, with Euron kicking ass and taking names, that's when I think Daenerys will swoop in and wipe King's Landing off the face of the map. Which brings me to my next point...

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes he is trying to recreate what happened in the tent that lead to Dany's dragons. It resulted in Drogo second lifing a dragon and he wants to do the same.

He doesn't have everything completely set in his mind but he's close or on the right track. He's fact finding, trying to work it all out, he's experimenting. Cragorn was an experiment to see what the horn does, that's why he had an autopsy done. He learned it kills the blower, burns them from inside out.

Falia is another experiment. He's not trying to use Falia and their child to second life a dragon, he's using her/it to try and better understand the process, probably he's going to try and skinchange a kraken out of it (Falia is to be a salt wife, Dany the rock wife, like sisters Falia said). Falia is the prototype for what he intends to do with Dany. I'm unsure if he will get to control krakens, but what I'm confident of is the sacrifice of Falia's child (Aeron's nephew, his blood) will see her and Aeron second life a leviathan after they die (that's the drowned god's Watery Hall).

The horn must be bound in blood, and possibly Euron gave it to Vic hoping Vic would blow it and die and that would bind the horn to Euron because he and Vic both have the same blood. And/Or it's just about more general experimentation, and he's eagerly watching through dusty woman eyes what happens when Vic has the horn blown.

To succeed Euron is going to need his own child to sacrifice (the more dragon blood the better, thus the more Targaryen blood of the mother the better, hence why he wants Dany), his horn to set his soul alight and into flight, and a dragon/egg on hand to "fly" into. And he is going to succeed (though with a child by Arianne, not Dany). Perhaps there will be an explosion, but it will happen during a great storm at the top of the tower/drum at Storm's End, it is the stone beast scene from Dany's HOTU vision.

I have never taken the stone beast vision literally. In fact, I never was quite sure what it was. I thought that part of the vision was about Jon Connington (sigil of House Connington = griffin = type of gargoyle statue you see on towers) and the fact that he is Patient Zero in a greyscale epidemic and that he will tell many ugly, poisonous lies about Aegon and Daenerys both.

But if it is about Euron turning himself into a dragon (or any other sort of monstrosity), then I'm all for it. It's already been stated how it will be hard for Drogon to burn down King's Landing in the dead of winter given his size and the guaranteed abundance of snow and ice. But a battle between Daenerys on dragonback and Euron 2.0 above or within the streets of King's Landing could actually level the city.

But yeah: I definitely do foresee the fates of Falia and Cersei even as being experiments and trial runs for what Euron intends with Dany. After all, Euron did say that he wants to conquer the world and rule over it as a god.

On 1/22/2020 at 4:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

As for Oldtown: Nothing in the plot indicates Euron is particularly interested in Oldtown (he wanted to go to Meereen, not Oldtown - right now he is just keeping his men occupied) and I don't think he will really try to raid or conquer it. Instead, I think the Hightowers will bend the knee and do him homage as their king after he crushes the Redwyne fleet and conquers the Arbor. Because then they won't have any other choice if they want to continue the trade which is the backbone of their wealth. Without the Redwyne fleet the Hightowers won't have any chance to get rid of the Ironborn in their waters for the next decade or so - and that only if they could actually build another war fleet without Euron's Ironborn destroying them before they are finished.

I disagree. While I would agree that Euron is not interested in Oldtown itself, I do think that Euron is very interested in the Citadel for the information and tools it contains.

Isn't the Citadel the scientific and academic center of all Westeros? Isn't the Citadel the Westerosi home of glass candles galore? Didn't Archmaester Marwyn tell Sam that the Citadel houses many books and tomes on magic and dragonlore? Isn't that the reason why Sam went to the Citadel in the first place: to gain intel on the magical inhuman beings that are the Others?

So yeah, while I think Euron would've preferred to take Dany and/or a dragon for himself first, I do think he is very interested in perusing the spellbooks (for lack of a better term) in the Citadel's library.

The Faceless Men are also apparently interested in the Citadel which is certainly not nothing. Plus, there appears to be this theory about how the Hightower is a magical battery for the Wall. So if Melisandre miscalculates and overreaches at the Wall and Euron (or Lord Leyton or his daughter) tampers with the actual Hightower lighthouse, then the Wall's integrity can be seriously weakened beyond repair. Which makes it easy for the Others to launch their invasion.

As for the Hightowers bending the knee to Euron and becoming his vassals? I've never thought about that. It was my prediction that the Hightowers would perish in battle against Euron. But for them to become his vassals it makes sense. It actually makes him look scarier as he will have that much more men to field (men who can actually fight on land and besiege castles) and be that much more wealthy. Granted, I feel like Dany will stop 90% of trade to Westeros (which would hurt House Hightower and thus Euron) and the other 10% of traders will stay far away from Westeros due to superstition and/or common sense...

On 1/22/2020 at 1:16 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So when I re-read Victarion's POV from AFFC...

So what do you think? Is Euron just a red herring or is he an existential threat to Westeros?

For one, if anything is a red herring, it's the dragon horn. I think that's completely fake.

Number two, the key is not to re-read Victarion's POV from Feast. Victarion is dumb. The key is to re-read Aeron's POV chapters from Feast. Aeron is very afraid of Euron for multiple reasons.

 

[chrisdaw]

12 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I have never taken the stone beast vision literally.

Obviously those vision passages are rife with symbolism, whether Dany ends up physically witnessing them in her life or not. But analysing that vision symbolically should lead anyone to Euron.

Quote

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . .

Quote

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

Euron's dream/goal in this whole thing is to fly, he won't know if he can unless he dares to leap from a tall tower. The stone beast takes flight from a tower. It is him taking the leap and successfully flying.

In literal terms, he learned blowing his horn will kill him, it is suicide, akin to jumping from a tall tower. But it is a risk he is going to have to take to know if he really can become a dragon - fly.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Exactly. Except the second half of the series became the final third of the series lol. Unless Martin has to write another book, Euron only has the time to show up and show out in The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.

I don't think for a moment that George can finish this series just in two books.

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm serious. The Others are horrible enough (I'm not convinced that they are evil monsters) but no one is going to be prepared for Euron. I think Euron is going to use Cersei to take the Iron Throne from Aegon while all of the heroes and non-villains are busy elsewhere. Everyone is going to see Euron on the Iron Throne and think "Okay, so now that that's out of the way, let's put down this usurper real"....only for them to get completely blindsided and get their asses kicked.

No idea how things will go but I certainly could see Euron taking the Iron Throne while Aegon is absent (fighting a war in the West or the Riverlands, say). All I'm comfortable predicting is that Euron is going to take the Arbor after crushing the Redwyne fleet, setting himself up as king there. I also aspect his marriage with Cersei to take place there, while Cersei visits him there on her way back to Casterly Rock by ship (she cannot go west overland since she would have to cross the Riverlands and would risk getting captured by the Tyrells or outlaws before she got back home). And I could see Euron attacking and destroying Sunspear and the Water Gardens (and the shadow city and the Planky Town) next, to punish the Martells for Aegon's existence (he is not going to see him coming) and their support of him. Doran and Trystane could both die in the process of this (or not, depending where they are and how exactly it goes).

Eventually I think Euron could assemble a mighty armada in an alliance with the Three Daughters against Daenerys, to prevent her armada from coming west. This giant battle might be where his power is broken, but if he survives this he and Cersei could come back to haunt to good guys during/after the War for the Dawn.

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

By the way, I think Euron is a skinchanger. I think Euron possessed Victarion's wife in the same way Bran possesses Hodor and forced her to initiate consensual sex with him. That's probably what Victarion's wife was trying to tell Victarion. And the fact that Euron's entire crew is comprised of mutes with no sense of agency and personality and nothing in common with each other or Euron. Yeah...the moment Euron finds a way to amplify his powers will be awful. Talk about a puppet state. But hey...it gives Bran something to do.

People have speculated about that before, not sure if I buy that. I can see Euron eventually becoming a skinchanger, too, since I think one can make a case that he was once contacted and then discarded by Bloodraven. But I think his present magical powers are fueled by the shade of the evening he drinks - which, strangely enough - might also be connected somehow to weirwood magics if you keep in mind that the trees from which it is made might be relations of the weirwoods.

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

I disagree. While I would agree that Euron is not interested in Oldtown itself, I do think that Euron is very interested in the Citadel for the information and tools it contains.

Isn't the Citadel the scientific and academic center of all Westeros? Isn't the Citadel the Westerosi home of glass candles galore? Didn't Archmaester Marwyn tell Sam that the Citadel houses many books and tomes on magic and dragonlore? Isn't that the reason why Sam went to the Citadel in the first place: to gain intel on the magical inhuman beings that are the Others?

'Jaqen' seems to be after a very specific book - the book that contains how to kill a dragon without leaving a trace (that blood-soaked tome that's called 'Blood and Fire' or 'The Death of the Dragons').

There are hints that Euron might already own a glass candle - and if he has Valyrian armor he should have many lesser trinkets as well.

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

As for the Hightowers bending the knee to Euron and becoming his vassals? I've never thought about that. It was my prediction that the Hightowers would perish in battle against Euron. But for them to become his vassals it makes sense. It actually makes him look scarier as he will have that much more men to field (men who can actually fight on land and besiege castles) and be that much more wealthy. Granted, I feel like Dany will stop 90% of trade to Westeros (which would hurt House Hightower and thus Euron) and the other 10% of traders will stay far away from Westeros due to superstition and/or common sense...

Euron would never actually sack Oldtown. I don't even think he will commit many atrocities on the Arbor. He is after the Iron Throne - and while he is a mad psychopath he has his smiling eye and knows how to play nice, use his charisma to woo other people to his cause rather than to antagonize them. He showed that at the Kingsmoot.

Euron will likely mercilessly crush the Redwyne fleet with some spell (a magical storm or summoned krakens, something like that) but he will allow the Hightower ships to return to Oldtown to report what they saw, putting fear in the hearts of the Oldtowners. And then he will send word to the Hightower and invite envoys to the Arbor to come to a mutual understanding. The Hightowers won't like it, but they usually bend the knee rather than fight till the end - they did this with the ancient Driftwood Kings, the Gardeners, and eventually the Targaryens. Especially if they don't have to. And on the Arbor it will go similarly. They might kill some people there, but Euron will play everything, treat Mina Tyrell Redwyne and her daughter Desmera (if she is there) with all honors, to show the Seven Kingdoms that they don't have to fear anything from him.

If Euron were show his brutal side constantly he would gain no foothold on the mainland, no supporters at all. And that way he would never become a real threat no matter what he call pull off magically.

A sack of both Oldtown and/or the Arbor would make him as popular as Walder Frey or Roose Bolton - and he doesn't want that. If he had wanted that there wouldn't have been a Kingsmoot. Instead he would have repeated the feat of Urron Redhand, butchering the assembled captains.

If Euron is interested in some Citadel artifacts and stuff he would have every opportunity to check them out once he visits the city when Lord Leyton and his family formally do him homage as their king.

Such a scenario also fits better with Sam's story - who, I think, is not running away from Oldtown a fortnight after he has arrived there. In fact, I expect his gang to eventually hook up with Aeron who I think is likely to survive his present predicament insofar as he is going to evade being sacrificed. They used leather straps to bind him, and leather widens when it gets soaked (which Aeron gets at the end of the chapter when the Silence moves out), possibly enabling him the wiggle himself free and entrusting himself to his god. He survived being drowned once, he might survive again.

Sam, Sarella and their group might end up working to convince Lord Leyton (who I expect is only going to bend the knee to Euron to gain time) and the Mad Maid and whoever pulls the strings in Oldtown to eventually side with Daenerys - because they know about the Others and believe her to be the savior they need for the coming War for the Dawn.

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

For one, if anything is a red herring, it's the dragon horn. I think that's completely fake.

Number two, the key is not to re-read Victarion's POV from Feast. Victarion is dumb. The key is to re-read Aeron's POV chapters from Feast. Aeron is very afraid of Euron for multiple reasons.

Well, it needed 'The Forsaken' for most people to get this. Both Aeron and Asha are very wary of Euron, and while Vic hates him more that he fears him, he also realizes that there is something very wrong with his brother.

As for Dragonbinder - well, I think Euron got that from the warlocks of Qarth he captured. And I think they either got it from some Valyrian dragonlords the Undying of Qarth defeated in ancient days or, perhaps, more likely, they got it because one of the Undying of Qarth actually was an exiled dragonlord of Valyrian who took a trinkets with him to Qarth when he left. That could also explain why the Undying were interested in Dany and why they had a lot of knowledge about her destiny. Pyat Pree would have only found that horn and the Valyrian armor, etc. after he and his buddies investigated the ruins of the House of the Undying.

And the warlocks would clearly have taken the horn as a weapon against Daenerys and her dragons, not as a tool to tame them. Perhaps it something to be used to steal dragons, to sever the bond between dragon and dragonrider, overriding it, and thus enabling a new rider to claim a dragon. It could also help claim wild dragons or it might have played a role in the original ritual of the Valyrians to create dragonlords.

We just don't know. But I doubt Pyat Pree/Euron knew how to use it exactly, nor do I think Victarion will use it correctly. Moqorro seems to have to have no interest in helping either Victarion or Euron (he joined Vic explicitly to prevent Euron from succeeding with his plan), so my best guess is that Dragonbinder is going to be the end of Victarion with Euron not profiting from that in any way. However, it might help/lead to Brown Ben and/or Tyrion claiming one of the riderless dragons.

[Davjos]

I hope he is a Red Herring who is smashed on the walls of OldTown. Gives us an opportunity to see Brightsmile and Greysteel shine, but I dislike him as an end game bad guy. I guess for a lack of build up and not a motivation I can relate with. 

[Bronn Urgandy]

It took me until that sample chapter to take him seriously, mainly cos Balon scared him off for two years and Victarion clearly intimidates him, but then Euron is much cleverer and probably my realises it was never worth trading blows with either of those two in case he didn’t come out on top, then all his grand plans will be for nothing.

 

Either way, so buy the hype now

[Rose of Red Lake]

I see him as just man #2308235 that Quaite warned Dany about, coming to her because they want power or need her to do something for them. None of them will be able to control her or a dragon for very long. I don't see much difference between Euron's desire for conquest and what Dany has to do if she wants Westeros. The Reader is usually correct in those chapters. So when he says "this dream of kingship is a madness in our blood," that's the dream of all these contenders, but Dany is the only one who controls all three nuclear weapons, as their "mother." She has the same "madness." The Reader also questions Euron's claim that he went to Valyria - so I think it's false. Therefore I agree that he is a Red Herring for "big bad." Dany is the existential threat in waiting. I think he will ally with whomever is on the IT at the end of Winds because he won't be able to get access to dragons like he wants, so he'll have to settle for the power of the chair to give the appearance that his plans are working. I'm more interested in who the woman is next to him on the IT. I can't decide which twist I like better, Euron defending King's Landing from Dany or Dany/Euron hooking up (Storm x Storm ).

 

[Seams]

I think the author wants us to compare Euron to Daemon Targaryen, brother of Viserys I and uncle / husband of Rhaenyra. The clues for this struck me during a recent revisit to the Asha POV chapters. Asha has a number of interesting uncles who enter the story after the death of her father, King Balon Greyjoy. Like Rhaenyra, Asha has a reasonable claim to be the rightful heir of the king yet she is opposed because she is a woman and because others aspire to the Seastone Chair.

You could make a case that others among Asha's uncles, aside from Euron, could also be Daemon parallels. I would not be surprised if GRRM sometimes "splits" one of his archetype characters so that several characters in the current story are echoes of the legendary or historical figure.

But the aspiration toward dragon riding and the ambition to occupy the Iron Throne make Euron the best fit as a Daemon parallel. A parallel doesn't have to be an exact match: Euron certainly doesn't seem to want to marry his niece Asha, although he arranges a marriage for her. Like Daemon, he covets the Targaryen princess.

Examining Daemon clues might help us to gain insight into (or make predictions about) Euron.

• The women in his life include Rhea Royce, Mysaria (spymaster and magical woman), Laena Velaryon, Rhaenyra and Nettles. How do Daemon's women match up with Victarion's wife, Falia Flowers (Lord Hewett's natural daughter), Dany, Asha, and the Dusky Woman? I would bet we will soon see an Alicent Hightower equivalent rising up in Euron's story line as well.
• He declared himself King of the Stepstones and the Narrow Sea.
• He hired Blood and Cheese to murder a Targ prince while his mother and brother looked on.
• He may or may not have died in the Battle above the Gods Eye involving the dragons Caraxes and Vhagar, ridden by Daemon and Aemond.
• Daemon I Blackfyre was named after Daemon. Daemon Blackfyre carried the sword Blackfyre; the earlier Daemon carried Dark Sister.