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Annalee

The Myth of the Self-made Person

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

The Dothraki do only follow the strong, but this doesn't mean they don't have a hereditary elite. Many a khal became khal as the khalakka of his father - the difference between the Dothraki system and a stricter herditary system like that in the Seven Kingdoms is that Dothraki weed out the weaklings. People like Tommen, Tyrion, Samwell, Tytos, etc. would never rise to a position of power among the Dothraki, no matter who their father was. It also means that old or crippled khals are toppled and replaced by younger and stronger men, meaning that a particular reign is not going to last as long as it can potentially in Westeros.

But you have to keep in mind that out of a pool of able-bodied youths the khal is best positioned to ensure his son(s), nephews, cousins, other kin have what it takes to succeed him than the father of some long-level follower. And we can assume that most khals were either born as children or kinsmen of previous khals or come from the other elite riders/warriors in a particular khalasar (i.e. those guys who are called ko, or perhaps also from the families of bloodriders). Once in a while there might be some very powerful outsider fighting his way to the top, and/or seizing the moment when a khal dies suddenly (like Drogo did), but one assumes that this doesn't happen all that often.

In that sense I doubt the Dothraki are that different from the Westerosi chivalry where the overwhelming majority of knights also comes from the ranks of the hereditary nobility despite the fact that you can technically also earn yourself a knighthood as a commoner. But if you are an able-bodied youth of noble birth your path to become a squire and knight is clear from the day of your birth - and the household of your father will ensure you get great or at least adequate training at arms - something which the overwhelming majority of commoners will never get.

There is very little social mobility in any of those society - although I'd say the Dothraki are rather mobile on the way down considering that even a mightly khal might end up a slave if a mightier khal defeats his khalasar in battle.

Very well.  Would you say Greyworm rose to his rank on merit?  They do weed out the weak so the cream rises to the top but it is an equal opportunity system among the trainees.  Promotion is based on merit within their system.  Emphasize their system. 

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Euhm nope, all it requires is a stick and a post at a gate where you get to decide who passes or doesnt. Any low recruit will do.

Do you honestly believe that or are you just being facetious?

They seem to be more influential than you are suggesting. From the Fire and Blood we know that such positions hold more power than that

Amongst those he named were the late Ser Amaury Peake and Ser Mervyn Flowers of the Kingsguard, Tessario the Tiger, Septon Bernard, Ser Gareth Long, Ser Victor Risley, Ser Lucas
Leygood of the gold cloaks with six of the seven captains of the city gates.

Ser Jacelyn's three years as captain of one the Gates is seen as one of the reasons why he was promoted to Lord Commander by Tyrion.

"I had been considering Ser Jacelyn Bywater. He's been captain on the Mud Gate for three years, and he served with valor during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. King Robert knighted him at Pyke. And yet his name does not appear on your list."

Other former captains of the Gates include Ser Adrian Thorne, Ser Harwin Strong and Ser Balon Byrch. Not that it is cannon, but this sites MUSH game also highlights the type of men who became commanders of these gates. https://www.westeros.org/BoD/Houses/Entry/House_Targaryen/

I definitly thinking you are downplaying the ease of a commoner reaching the ranks that Janos reached.

Quote

Hmm, whenever I read about a review of his potrayarl it's mostly about how delusional he is, rather than that he's self-made.

Under the wiki page for self made men Gatsby is one of the prime examples.

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3 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

Very well.  Would you say Greyworm rose to his rank on merit?  They do weed out the weak so the cream rises to the top but it is an equal opportunity system among the trainees.  Promotion is based on merit within their system.  Emphasize their system. 

Greyworm's rise to the top was just arbitrary, was he not? He was just the guy in command - and the guy with that name - the day Dany bought the Unsullied.

The Unsullied also are a professional slave infantry - the Dothraki don't seem to have the same kind of professionalism/discipline. But I certainly would say that an Unsullied only became an Unsullied because he survived the barbaric training that made him an Unsullied, yes.

To me it seems there is a professional class of warrior-riders and they do have some kind of leadership. But not all the Dothraki would be warriors first and foremost. There would be some who focus on breeding horses, some who tend the flocks, some who oversee the slaves, etc. I'm pretty sure that the portion of warrior-riders would be very high among the Dothraki - and all free men among them but the old ones and cripples would be riders - but I don't think they are are an equal society where it is common that the lowest-born guy regularly does raise to the position of khal.

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Do you honestly believe that or are you just being facetious?

I'd say the latter. She does have some issues if people try to show her the holes in her theories ;-).

She isn't completely wrong - some man guarding/overseeing something can also be corrupt or extort people. But unless the City Watch under Robert and Jon Arryn was a completely corrupt system (sort of like law enforcement in Gotham City) it should be very hard (or rather impossible) for Slynt to rise from his common background high enough to be recognized by the high and mighty. The rank and file can only profit from corruption if they are literal nobodies if a corrupt system back them. Thus young Slynt would have quickly been dismissed from the Watch or would have ended in the dungeons if he had tried to collect bribes from people who didn't want to pay, for example. People who are threatened or blackmailed and extorted can and would complain to Slynt's superiors in such a scenario - unless everybody was corrupt and Slynt was doing his corruption/criminal stuff on the orders of his captains and Lord Commander.

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

They seem to be more influential than you are suggesting. From the Fire and Blood we know that such positions hold more power than that

Amongst those he named were the late Ser Amaury Peake and Ser Mervyn Flowers of the Kingsguard, Tessario the Tiger, Septon Bernard, Ser Gareth Long, Ser Victor Risley, Ser Lucas
Leygood of the gold cloaks with six of the seven captains of the city gates.

Ser Jacelyn's three years as captain of one the Gates is seen as one of the reasons why he was promoted to Lord Commander by Tyrion.

"I had been considering Ser Jacelyn Bywater. He's been captain on the Mud Gate for three years, and he served with valor during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. King Robert knighted him at Pyke. And yet his name does not appear on your list."

Other former captains of the Gates include Ser Adrian Thorne, Ser Harwin Strong and Ser Balon Byrch. Not that it is cannon, but this sites MUSH game also highlights the type of men who became commanders of these gates. https://www.westeros.org/BoD/Houses/Entry/House_Targaryen/

I definitly thinking you are downplaying the ease of a commoner reaching the ranks that Janos reached.

Under the wiki page for self made men Gatsby is one of the prime examples.

The City Watch in general was historically a more powerful institution as it seems to be now. Qarl Corbray even sat on the Small Council as Lord Commander of the City Watch during the reign of Jaehaerys I.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She isn't completely wrong - some man guarding/overseeing something can also be corrupt or extort people. But unless the City Watch under Robert and Jon Arryn was a completely corrupt system (sort of like law enforcement in Gotham City) it should be very hard (or rather impossible) for Slynt to rise from his common background high enough to be recognized by the high and mighty.

If it was completely corrupt then it is even more impressive that Janos rose so high, as richer, wealthier people would be able to reserve those places of power within the Gold Cloaks for themselves.

It is not like Janos Slynt was the only person willing to bend the rules. So even if he was hand-picked it was down to some merit he had himself that made him the better option than the better educated, trained or richer competitors for his position. Janos has, or had, some distinguishable qualities that set him apart from the usual suspects who got those positions.

 

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

If it was completely corrupt then it is even more impressive that Janos rose so high, as richer, wealthier people would be able to reserve those places of power within the Gold Cloaks for themselves.

It is not like Janos Slynt was the only person willing to bend the rules. So even if he was hand-picked it was down to some merit he had himself that made him the better option than the better educated, trained or richer competitors for his position. Janos has, or had, some distinguishable qualities that set him apart from the usual suspects who got those positions.

Sure, I just tried to imagine a scenario where Janos rose on the basis on his evilness/corruption - and that would require a completely (or at least somewhat different) setting. You are right that the high and mighty would likely advance their own men and clients in the City Watch rather than allow some nobody rise. I was trying to imagine the Watch and the court at large as some kind of mafia family, and there you definitely can rise high on the basis of your merits as a criminal - and I could see some real lowlifes to rise to power in the City Watch and at court during the corrupt rule of Aegon IV.

But we should not imagine Slynt as this monstrous champion of corruption - he committed/arranged some heinous crimes but only in service to the king and regent, not, as far as we know, like some mobster. Chances are that Daemon Targaryen was more corrupt in his days as Lord Flea Bottom than Janos Slynt. If Slynt had allowed himself to be bribed by Ned he would be a great hero in the eyes of many, despite the fact that this would be a very ugly betrayal if the man actually believed Joffrey was Robert's son. And if he had helped Renly or Stannis to make Cersei and her children disappear he would have been involved in pretty much the same heinous crime he was doing for Cersei/Joffrey - with the difference that he may actually have believed Joffrey was the rightful king.

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Do you honestly believe that or are you just being facetious?

They seem to be more influential than you are suggesting. From the Fire and Blood we know that such positions hold more power than that

Amongst those he named were the late Ser Amaury Peake and Ser Mervyn Flowers of the Kingsguard, Tessario the Tiger, Septon Bernard, Ser Gareth Long, Ser Victor Risley, Ser Lucas
Leygood of the gold cloaks with six of the seven captains of the city gates.

Ser Jacelyn's three years as captain of one the Gates is seen as one of the reasons why he was promoted to Lord Commander by Tyrion.

"I had been considering Ser Jacelyn Bywater. He's been captain on the Mud Gate for three years, and he served with valor during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. King Robert knighted him at Pyke. And yet his name does not appear on your list."

Other former captains of the Gates include Ser Adrian Thorne, Ser Harwin Strong and Ser Balon Byrch. Not that it is cannon, but this sites MUSH game also highlights the type of men who became commanders of these gates. https://www.westeros.org/BoD/Houses/Entry/House_Targaryen/

I definitly thinking you are downplaying the ease of a commoner reaching the ranks that Janos reached.

Yup, I honestly believe that.

Ah, Slynt is to the former captains what Robert's or Cersei's KG are to those prior. A Kettleback becoming KG isn't praise for the Kettlebacks on how they are self-made men. It's evidence of the rot of that institution. Slynt is something similar for the Gold Cloaks.

And yes, it's not a coincidence that Slynt is a "butcher's son". As a character he's comparable to the likes of the Butcher King in Astapor.

But hey, I guess by your reasoning, we should call the Butcher King as well as Mo Kraznis self-made man too.

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Under the wiki page for self made men Gatsby is one of the prime examples

Then I'll leave a note there to question his additoin to that list.

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Then I'll leave a note there to question his additoin to that list.

Umm, dont do that. Lol. The wiki folk may not like it.

Highschools American Literature class is flooding back. Yes Jay was a fraud and sham, as delusional as any East Egg (or was it West Egg? Lol) resident, but the man oozed success. 

Its very American like, we measure our success by material gains, nothing else.

(Jay did have gonnegtions though, like Bronn or Dunk)

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Then I'll leave a note there to question his additoin to that list.

As @Hugorfonics says, there's no real reason to do this. Both Gatsby's self-mythologization and his _real_ history are that of a "self-made man", as recognized by Nick when he learns the truth of James Gatz and what he really came from and how he really came to have his wealth. You will find endless references in scholarly literature of Gatsby's self-made nature, as seen here in Professor Jeffrey Louis Decker's article for NOVEL:

Quote

Through the eyes of Fitzgerald's narrator, Nick Carraway, Gatsby appears in the guise of the archetypal, if somewhat misguided, self-made man in America. Gatsby's upward struggle is inspired by traditional purveyors of middle-class success, such as Ben Franklin and Horatio Alger Jr.. However, another less virtuous narrative of Gatsby's self-making unfolds, which connects our hero's business schemes to the tainted hand of immigrant gangsters.

FWIW, Decker's something of an expert on the concept and mythmaking of self-made people, having published a book on the subject.

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6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Ah, Slynt is to the former captains what Robert's or Cersei's KG are to those prior. A Kettleback becoming KG isn't praise for the Kettlebacks on how they are self-made men. It's evidence of the rot of that institution. Slynt is something similar for the Gold Cloaks.

Except he really is not. He replaced Stokeworth and Bywater and Marbrand came after him. This is a position that is usually held by nobility, at one time a Prince and other times Lords. A man of Slynt's birth is not expected to raise to such a position in the world they live in.

There really is zero indication that the Gold Cloaks under Slynt are any more corrupt than they were throughout history. Certainly not more corrupt than under Ser Lucas Leygood.

Quote

And yes, it's not a coincidence that Slynt is a "butcher's son".

The two are not mutually exclusive. Something can have multiple meanings.

Quote

 

As a character he's comparable to the likes of the Butcher King in Astapor.

Hardly. One has risen in a rigid society where blood and birth is more important than anything else. Someone who has a career and has risen to the top. The other has risen in a system of chaos that no longer recognized the nobilities right to rule.

They are very, very different situations.

Quote

But hey, I guess by your reasoning, we should call the Butcher King as well as Mo Kraznis self-made man too.

Again, I really can't tell if you are being facetious again. We are talking about the set up in Westeros, with its culture. A position with a history of nobility occupying his  position, both before and after Slynt.

A real issue within the fandom is this idea that the antagonists of the series can't have any redeeming qualities. That they are all basically Orcs in Lord of the Rings who only exist to be mean to the protagonists. This is not the world GRRM created.

In real life many self-made men have become corrupt or some less than good people have still became self-made. Being self-made has little to do with how nice you are, it is about rising in a system that does not favour you. Slynt and Davos are both examples of self mademen in Westeros, even more so than Littlefineger (who also fits the criteria), given their birth. They've risen because they have abilities that set them apart from the other people competing for their positions.

Edited by Bernie Mac

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On 1/26/2020 at 4:16 AM, sweetsunray said:

Snip

I actually agree about Arya and was going to add her in, but I think there are ways that people can say her birth helped her.  The skills she learns from Syrio come from her special status of Hand’s daughter, the only reason Yoren gives a rats ass about her is because she’s a Stark. Same with her treatment of BwB and the Hound. 
 

alothough id say Arya has walked her own path DESPITE the issues placed on her because of her High Birth. I don’t think her birth has necessarily helped her all that much. 
 

with Brienne I think she would have had a hugely hugely different time and way of growing up had she not been highborn.  She legitimately doesn’t get raped because of her high birth and ransom. And she wouldn’t have had the access to a master at arms

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17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The two are not mutually exclusive. Something can have multiple meanings.

Exactly. The idea that we are not supposed to see the noble arrogance and presumption on side of the likes of Tywin and Tyrion who look down on Slynt because of his humble background - which is rather prominent both in AGoT and ACoK - makes little sense.

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Hardly. One has risen in a rigid society where blood is more important than anything else. Someone who has a career and is risen to the top. The other has risen in a system of chaos that no longer recognized the nobilities right to rule.

There are very, very different situations.

Not to mention that Cleon is essentially comparable to a guy who rose to power as inmate of a concentration camp that was freed. He was a slave himself and whatever he did later he tried to protect his own - the former slaves - and punish the people who tormented them. There is nothing wrong with that. Nobody has to be some enlightened, forgiving person after going through what the Good Masters did to them.

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Again, I really can't tell if you are being facetious again. We are talking about the set up in Westeros, with its culture. A position with a history of nobility occupying its position, both before and after Slynt.

We can easily enough imagine the origin of all so-called 'nobility' in Westeros as scum like Bronn, Slynt, the Kettleblacks, Cleganes, etc. - people smart or corrupt enough to set themselves as warlords and petty lords and petty kings. The idea that the founders of the noble houses were good and noble lads is ridiculous - especially for those who extended the power of those families in the early days.

In fact, if one looks at the present-day 'nice Starks' one cannot but wonder whether they being all nice and honorable, etc. isn't a sign of decadence and decline. If Ned had been a little bit more like those harsh and stern and cruel Kings in the North Cersei would have never been able to defeat him. If Robb hadn't been as soft (towards Theon) and honorable (to Jeyne) as he was things would have been very different, and so on. The surviving children will have to take many a page from Littlefinger's, Bloodraven's, and the Faceless Men's book to come back into their own again.

In a very real sense this is a story about good guys becoming ugly.

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39 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except he really is not. He replaced Stokeworth and Bywater and Marbrand came after him. This is a position that is usually held by nobility, at one time a Prince and other times Lords. A man of Slynt's birth is not expected to raise to such a position in the world they live in.

There really is zero indication that the Gold Cloaks under Slynt are any more corrupt than they were throughout history. Certainly not more corrupt than under Ser Lucas Leygood.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Something can have multiple meanings.

Hardly. One has risen in a rigid society where blood is more important than anything else. Someone who has a career and is risen to the top. The other has risen in a system of chaos that no longer recognized the nobilities right to rule.

There are very, very different situations.

Again, I really can't tell if you are being facetious again. We are talking about the set up in Westeros, with its culture. A position with a history of nobility occupying its position, both before and after Slynt.

A real issue within the fandom is this idea that the antagonists of the series can't have any redeeming qualities. That they are all basically Orcs in Lord of the Rings who only exist to be mean to the protagonists. This is not the world GRRM created.

In real life many self-made men have become corrupt or some less than good people have still became self-made. Being self-made has little to do with how nice you are, it is about rising in a system that does not favour you. Slynt and Davos are both examples of self mademen in Westeros, even more so than Littlefineger (who also fits the criteria), given their birth. They've risen because they have abilities that set them apart from the other people competing for their positions.

I actually see what your position is and I want to agree but I think it muddys the waters of the question. 
 

Being “self made” is usually something by your OWN actions in which your power or skill doesn’t derive from anyone else, and that your own actions have been what propelled you to become what you currently are. 
 

i thinkJanis started as a self made man, but by the end of his story it’s quite clear that apart from him being an officer of the Gold Cloaks, his power and position derived from Littlefinger’s protection. This is pointed out to us by Stannis

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Snip 

 This is very true and actually goes on to say something that I agree with that Bronn says to or eludes to in the show  

basically he states that all their families were killers and just killed enough/the right people  “kill a hundred people they make you a knight.  Kill a thousand they make you a Lord.” 
 

which is absolutely true since that’s how many of them became who they were and then just consolidated power.  Bronn is the ultimate self made person in this sense  

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1 minute ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

I actually see what your position is and I want to agree but I think it muddys the waters of the question. 
 

Being “self made” is usually something by your OWN actions in which your power or skill doesn’t derive from anyone else, and that your own actions have been what propelled you to become what you currently are. 
 

i thinkJanis started as a self made man, but by the end of his story it’s quite clear that apart from him being an officer of the Gold Cloaks, his power and position derived from Littlefinger’s protection. This is pointed out to us by Stannis

You can argue he may have maintained his position because of the faith Littlefinger and Robert had in him, but he did not get the position because of it.

Why did Littlefinger want Janos to remain there? If Littlefinger's position with Robert is that influential and Janos is nothing special, why does Baelish not simply suggest a replacement? Why risk his political capital with both Jon and Robert to keep Janos in that role?

I'd also argue that Robert must have wanted him to remain. Him ignoring his Hand's request to replace him, given that Arryn was the man who made Slynt Commander in the first place, would not have been done simply because Robert favoured Littlefinger over his adopted father.

 

Jimmy Hoffa is regarded in real life as a self mademan. He started off at the bottom (grocery assistant) and made it to the top, one of the leading political voices of his day. Everyone understands that he was corrupt and once at the top used other powerful backers to keep him there. But that does not make him any less of a self mademan.

 

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

As @Hugorfonics says, there's no real reason to do this. Both Gatsby's self-mythologization and his _real_ history are that of a "self-made man", as recognized by Nick when he learns the truth of James Gatz and what he really came from and how he really came to have his wealth. You will find endless references in scholarly literature of Gatsby's self-made nature, as seen here in Professor Jeffrey Louis Decker's article for NOVEL:

FWIW, Decker's something of an expert on the concept and mythmaking of self-made people, having published a book on the subject.

Thanks, but Decker does phrase it as "appears in the guise of the archetypal..." So, he also recognizes that when people use the phrase "self-made man" they use it to indicate the archetype, which is how the OP used it. Decker continues to recognize Gatsby as self-made in a completely different context, and also points out that he definitely isn't the first archetypal self-made man, but only appears it to be.

The OP argued that Gendry doesn't qualify at being an archetypal self-made man because he started apprenticing, because a rich man paid for it. But somehow thugs are? If so, then that definition of the word uses two weights that contradict one another, or in reference to the mythologization of it: there are no real self-made (wo)men, because it either takes benefactors or thuggery (or magic) to get anywhere.

@Lord Varys I agree that whomever became Lord at some point in Westeros' history got there by being a thug, not much different than Bronn. And I agree they're hypocrites to look down on Slynt for this reason.

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5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The OP argued that Gendry doesn't qualify at being an archetypal self-made man because he started apprenticing, because a rich man paid for it. But somehow thugs are? If so, then that definition of the word uses two weights that contradict one another, or in reference to the mythologization of it: there are no real self-made (wo)men, because it either takes benefactors or thuggery (or magic) to get anywhere.

Gendry is a royal bastard. He isn't a selfmade person in any sense. That he could only be if nobody had known who he was - which wasn't the case. Tobho Mott is one of the greatest armorers in the Seven Kingdoms, and possibly one of the richest commoners in King's Landing - becoming his apprentice means you must have a lot of money. Which is something only privileged people have.

If Gendry had himself stolen or himself acquired the money that allowed him to start his apprenticeship then we could consider him a selfmade man. But he didn't. Not to mention he didn't get anywhere in life at this point anyway. Being an outlaw isn't a career.

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1 hour ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

I actually agree about Arya and was going to add her in, but I think there are ways that people can say her birth helped her.  The skills she learns from Syrio come from her special status of Hand’s daughter, the only reason Yoren gives a rats ass about her is because she’s a Stark. Same with her treatment of BwB and the Hound. 
 

alothough id say Arya has walked her own path DESPITE the issues placed on her because of her High Birth. I don’t think her birth has necessarily helped her all that much. 

She is. Yes, a few people tried to help her or helped her because she's a Stark, but also because of her attitude. For example, Jaquen was interested in Arya because she was a Stark, but it wasn't because she was a Stark that he decided to kill 3 people for her (he killed 2 and was strongarmed into releasing prisoners) or gave her the coin. Jaquen deciding to recruit her was based on her personal merit.

And yes, Ned hired Syrio, but he only did, because Ned realized that Arya would do it anyway and she'd better be taught how to handle a weapon, and she works for her skill.

I also agree that Arya is walking her path despite her birth, that she experiences it as a hindrance.

But well, Arya's case shows that self-made is pretty much an oxymoron. It always requires someone else to believe in the character, to give a boon, to teach or train them.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Being self-made has little to do with how nice you are, it is about rising in a system that does not favour you.

Well, it thus is about which definition you use for self-made. For you it just means acquiring a status in a system that doesn't favour you, and it doesn't matter to you how someone got there. Others define it as 'not getting any name or financial help'. Etc.  The OP stipulated the context as 'not getting any help'. And if that's the case, then how you acquired a status in a system does matter. And when Slynt extorted other people, murdered people and had LF helping him, then he doesn't qualify for the bar that the OP set. He got help, even if that was involuntarily help in some cases.

And that's got nothing to do with Slynt being a jerk or not. It's how the OP restricted it. If buying a kid an apprenticeship disqualifies that kid from ever being self-made because of it, then Slynt's corruption disqualifies him too. 

Edited by sweetsunray

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