Red Wedding: Robb's fate

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's all in who you talk to. Some people are so against the Starks that they think anything that contributed to their downfall is justified, no matter how heinous it was. I, personally, think those people will not be happy when the books are finished (if they are finished) because we can see already the name Frey has made for himself & I'll almost guarantee Roose will suffer from this also. 

When people take against a character, they take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.  It's like supporting the slavers against Daenerys. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

When people take against a character, they take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.  It's like supporting the slavers against Daenerys. 

Yeah absolutely. It kind of sucks because it hinders real discussion. Certainly, every character has made mistakes but it's hard to discuss that with someone when you are having to constantly defend them against things that are absurd. 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah absolutely. It kind of sucks because it hinders real discussion. Certainly, every character has made mistakes but it's hard to discuss that with someone when you are having to constantly defend them against things that are absurd. 

I don't think that Martin is writing in code.  There's a limit to how far you can take " a hero is a villain to their opponents".  I don't think we are meant to sympathise with Walder Frey, or Roose Bolton (although, as a villain, I think he's a great character) or Ghiscari slavers, or the Bloody Mummers.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that Martin is writing in code.  There's a limit to how far you can take " a hero is a villain to their opponents".  I don't think we are meant to sympathise with Walder Frey, or Roose Bolton (although, as a villain, I think he's a great character) or Ghiscari slavers, or the Bloody Mummers.

Oh I agree. I just mean that it's hard to discuss the ramifications of things like Robb breaking his marriage betrothal or Daenerys killing the slavers above the age of 12 with someone who says that because Robb broke his betrothal or because Daenerys ordered the killing of 13 year olds they are inherently evil & deserve anything bad that comes to them. 

[The Fattest Leech]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

I don't think anything from that statement you quoted indicates that. It could be simply a difference of opinion on what constitutes 'a while'.

It's pretty clear what the basic plot timeline is here, and that includes this betrayal being in development in some manner (that seems to grow in complexity with time) and it happens before Robb married Jeyne <- and that is the key in these arguments here. Certain fans stating Robb should have died/whatever because he betrayed Walder, when in fact something was in the works for a while. 

I have no idea why you tend to whitewash the antagonists of the story, especially ones that GRRM says he wrote as rotten to the core like Tywin, Janos Slynt, Walder Frey. It is fine to like a character for who they are, "good" or "bad", but at least admit what they are first. Martin does write very dark characters despite what some readers might think. GRRM is speaking and telling things from the perspective of the character in that quote, as he most often does. This is about the closest GRRM comes to giving his own personal feelings on how he would act within the story video link.

[Eternally_Theirs]

I'll just put this poem I wrote here:

Stabbed through the heart
And Roose is to blame
He played his part
And he stole my home
I gave it my all
And I was the one to fall 

Relevant.

[TheNecromancerofMirkwood]

The blowback from the Red Wedding has already spun completely out of control. Walder Frey stupidly let that genie out of the bottle because he's a near-sighted, grasping weasel and the likelihood of it being stuffed back into the bottle is remote at best (if not impossible). As it is, he's doomed his entire house which will likely be completely extinguished in the male line during The Winds of Winter. Question is will revocation of Guest Right spread outside The Riverlands?

[Eternally_Theirs]

I've posted this in another topic, and I'm posting it here too.

Walder Frey: Oh, so he did what he did to preserve a girl's honor, and he was willing to bend over backwards to please me? No matter, I'll lure him into a trap and kill all of his men and leave him for last, and I'll sacrifice my innocent grandson while I am at it!

Roose Bolton: Let me stab him! Let me take his castle! LoL!

Jinglebell: Grandpa, no.....

Ryman: Grandpa yes.

Robb: Why me?

Jinglebell: Unjustly Murdered Youths Society. UMYS for short. Is it a go?

Robb: It is.

[sweetsunray]

25 minutes ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

The blowback from the Red Wedding has already spun completely out of control. Walder Frey stupidly let that genie out of the bottle because he's a near-sighted, grasping weasel and the likelihood of it being stuffed back into the bottle is remote at best (if not impossible). As it is, he's doomed his entire house which will likely be completely extinguished in the male line during The Winds of Winter. Question is will revocation of Guest Right spread outside The Riverlands?

Well, I do hope Olivar gets to live. I also hope he's the ward of Rosby and decides to change his name to Rosby.

[Eternally_Theirs]

18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I do hope Olivar gets to live. I also hope he's the ward of Rosby and decides to change his name to Rosby.

No response to my little skit above?

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

No response to my little skit above?

No idea what to respond to it, no.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It's pretty clear what the basic plot timeline is here, and that includes this betrayal being in development in some manner (that seems to grow in complexity with time) and it happens before Robb married Jeyne <- and that is the key in these arguments here. Certain fans stating Robb should have died/whatever because he betrayed Walder, when in fact something was in the works for a while.  

Agreed. Walder and Roose would have set up the RW regardless whether Robb was wed to Jeyne or a bachelor still. Stannis losing at the Blackwater and Tywin uniting with the Tyrells was the moment that Roose decides to go hunting wolves in Arya's POV at Harrenhal, and even if the Freys at HH didn't consider treason at that point, you can betcha that Walder at the Twins' mind was bending that way already. And even far earlier than that, Roose orders Glover and Harrion to attack Duskendale. At this point, Tywin is still trying to cross the Fords; Stannis is expected to win against KL; and Robb has a successful blitz campaign in the Westerlands. The sole reason why Roose could becoming so blatant in setting Glover and Harrion up at the time is because he received news from Ramsay about the IB invasion, Theon having taken WF and Theon making people believe he killed Bran and Rickon. When Roose took Harrenhal and sent those two men to Duskendale, he had insider information that soon there would be news about WF not being in Stark hands anymore.

These two events were what put Robb in a tactical weak and trapped position, regardless whether KL was in Stannis' or the Lannister power. The rest was just window dressing. And if Robb had still been a bachelor, Walder wouldn't even want Robb to wed any of his daughters anymore. He'd organize a wedding, but would have Robb killed before there's any bedding.

[Bowen 747]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that Martin is writing in code.  There's a limit to how far you can take " a hero is a villain to their opponents".  I don't think we are meant to sympathise with Walder Frey, or Roose Bolton (although, as a villain, I think he's a great character) or Ghiscari slavers, or the Bloody Mummers.

The criticism (or the blame) is directed more at human nature itself rather than the individuals.  Human love can lead to very bad decisions which hurt many.  Love is seen as beautiful and positive; however, George is showing us how it is the reason why a lot of shitty things happen.  There appear no salvation on the horizon.  Hence the future seem bleak. 

[Hugorfonics]

40 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The sole reason why Roose could becoming so blatant in setting Glover and Harrion up at the time is because he received news from Ramsay about the IB invasion, Theon having taken WF and Theon making people believe he killed Bran and Rickon. When Roose took Harrenhal and sent those two men to Duskendale, he had insider information that soon there would be news about WF not being in Stark hands anymore.

Ramsay is only capable to write his father after the sack of Winterfell, so after Duskendale too. (Roose still knew about Theon and his story though, maybe he wanted to keep his options open)

Roose was scattered in the south wishing upon weasel soup while Ramsay was being chased out of Hornwood, no idea where to write and no time either. He winds up in jail giving Jojen bad dreams but no raven to send his father. The prince comes along and murders his exs kids so Ramsay can whittle away, was he rewarded with a trip to Luwins ravens? Course not, Reek cant write, right? Eventually hes given a hundo to buy the famous sellswords of Winterfells suburbia, and that's when the party starts. I suppose now is a time he could write to Harrenhall from the Dread and be like "Im alive. Attacking Winterfell. May find Frey children. May not find mute ironborn thrall children." But by the time hes hi fiving Ser Rodrik the raven would be like halfway to the neck with old information. Eventually he burns Luwins house, along with everything else and goes back home where he writes daddy a arent you proud of me letter, the same letter that had Theons flayed (finger? Lets say finger...) skin that Catelyn thought of putting on her dashboard.

 

Roose was backed into a corner. His son practically won the game for him, all he needed to do was subtract a Robb. 

Tywin kept a good distance from the shenanigans. Hes already a war criminal who orders the rape of princesses and son, so whats a rumor about a wedding gonna do?

Walder, I mean how stupid could he have been? Obviously Petyr gotta reign, he just got the job plus that whole Tywin distancing thing, but Darry? That's like Drogon working overtime for a month, plus it actually goes to Lancel and his son, or the mailmans son. And then Riverrun, but thats no place to raise a family. Stupid angry Walder, cant even keep his hostages. 

 

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It's pretty clear what the basic plot timeline is here, and that includes this betrayal being in development in some manner (that seems to grow in complexity with time) and it happens before Robb married Jeyne <- and that is the key in these arguments here.

I don't think that is clear. The Freys are still calling Robb King after the Blackwater. It is only after news of the Robb's marriage to Jeyne reaches Harrenhal do the Freys get pissed and leave (before later returning).

It seems an odd thing to do if Roose and the Freys were already in cahoots and planning betrayal before news of Jeyne.

Quote

 

Certain fans stating Robb should have died/whatever because he betrayed Walder, when in fact something was in the works for a while.

No one deserves to die.

But I don't think it was in the works for a while either, certainly not before his marriage to Jeyne.

Quote

 

I have no idea why you tend to whitewash the antagonists of the story,

I don't. We have a difference in I see many being more grey, even dark grey, than you do.

Quote

 

especially ones that GRRM says he wrote as rotten to the core like Tywin, Janos Slynt, Walder Frey.

When does he say that?

 

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The criticism (or the blame) is directed more at human nature itself rather than the individuals.  Human love can lead to very bad decisions which hurt many.  Love is seen as beautiful and positive; however, George is showing us how it is the reason why a lot of shitty things happen.  There appear no salvation on the horizon.  Hence the future seem bleak. 

While that is so, the idea of prioritising duty over love is not always good either. It can result in the type of cold inhumanity that can justify any enormity.

[SeanF]

13 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It's pretty clear what the basic plot timeline is here, and that includes this betrayal being in development in some manner (that seems to grow in complexity with time) and it happens before Robb married Jeyne <- and that is the key in these arguments here. Certain fans stating Robb should have died/whatever because he betrayed Walder, when in fact something was in the works for a while. 

I have no idea why you tend to whitewash the antagonists of the story, especially ones that GRRM says he wrote as rotten to the core like Tywin, Janos Slynt, Walder Frey. It is fine to like a character for who they are, "good" or "bad", but at least admit what they are first. Martin does write very dark characters despite what some readers might think. GRRM is speaking and telling things from the perspective of the character in that quote, as he most often does. This is about the closest GRRM comes to giving his own personal feelings on how he would act within the story video link.

And even then, he doesn't tell us that much.  

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ramsay is only capable to write his father after the sack of Winterfell, so after Duskendale too. (Roose still knew about Theon and his story though, maybe he wanted to keep his options open)

Actually, Ramsay is able to write father before the sack. He can write from the Dreadfort after Theon releases Reek to find help.

Ramsay didn't get help by assembling people from Wintertown. He went to get the men that Roose left him at the Dreadfort. He even had time to change in his Bolton apparel. And that happens long after Roose settled in HH.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually, Ramsay is able to write father before the sack. He can write from the Dreadfort after Theon releases Reek to find help.

Ramsay didn't get help by assembling people from Wintertown. He went to get the men that Roose left him at the Dreadfort. He even had time to change in his Bolton apparel. And that happens long after Roose settled in HH.

I talked about that last post

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I suppose now is a time he could write to Harrenhall from the Dread and be like "Im alive. Attacking Winterfell. May find Frey children. May not find mute ironborn thrall children." But by the time hes hi fiving Ser Rodrik the raven would be like halfway to the neck with old information.

It makes no sense. Ramsay is preparing to fight a battle with forces five times less then his enemy. He has to guarantee the survival of two Walder Freys and a Theon. It just doesn't make sense to write Roose then, when the following letter would be filled with relevant and up to date information

[Eternally_Theirs]

I came across a quote from the book itself which perfectly illustrates where I stand: 'Your misfortune touched me.".

Robb's misfortune touched me. And quite rightfully too. People like Robb deserve pity. And then you have the person who said the quote above, who claims to feel pity for troubles of innocent people, when he didn't care one whit about Robb. Hypocrites, all of them. Filthy motherfuckers, the lot of them. People who murder their own children. People who stab promising youths under the guise of benevolence. People who smash children's heads against the wall and smash adult heads like overripe watermelons. They can rot in hell, the lot of them. Vengeance for being dishonored, Walder Frey says. 'Wash away the dishonor that was done to me." he says. Kill the dude who wanted to preserve someone else's honor, he says. Who cares about minor details like that when I was dishonored? Me, me, it's all about me, he says.

Then we have the Red Viper, a true symbol of what vengeance should look like, bless his soul. His vengeance was focused on people who really deserved it, and he also championed for a factually innocent man. We also have Jeyne Westerling, who is the living proof that Robb could and would preserve someone else's honor. A stand-up guy who was willing to bend over backward to appease that fat tub o' lard. Finally, we have Jinglebell, a living proof that said fat tub o'lard's prattling about how he wants to secure his family's future was a load of bollocks.

Then there is Roose Bolton, who I will not talk about, because his very name makes me want to smash something.