What if Robb was the sole survivor of RW?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

29 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

Stannis isn't of the North.

You didn't say Robb was the only one of the North would listen, you said he was the only one who would listen. As @sweetsunray has pointed out, it's pretty unlikely Robb would have listened at any rate. 

As we've all pointed out, there are other people listening. You then moved the goal posts saying but they aren't Warden of the North. So what your first statement should have been is "The current warden of the North won't listen" to which yes, you are probably right. But he won't be in that position long & probably in part, thanks to Stannis - who does & will listen. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

. He might have listened, eventually, if Roose didn't nip that chance in the bud

The same could be said of anyone, even Roose. 

3 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

That is supposing that Rickon would think that Jon ought to be listened to, which he might not

Sure, he might not but he might & given his current supposed position & the fact that Jon is his brother, I think the chances are good he would listen. 

4 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

And that makes Roose/Stannis/Alys more likely to help how? The North (and South) won't listen to Stannis because they don't view him as their King. They won't listen to wildlings/mountain clans because they deem them as a threat. They won't listen to Roose because he stabbed their King - one that they chose - in the heart.

You know who the North will listen to though? Jon. 

The point is there wasn't anyone other than the North that would have listened to Robb either & they will listen to Jon as well. 

5 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

And? None of the people who listened to him are Wardens of the North as far as I know, and it's ultimately Warden of the North's decision, not theirs

Like I stated above, if your stance was the current WotN won't listen, you should have said that rather than saying No one will listen. Something I think is arguable anyway. Has Roose been told anything about the Others? If not, we really can't say he won't listen. 

 

[Eternally_Theirs]

And that's just re: Others.

There is also a question of morality there. Say you have a 16-year-old who is generally likeable and who strives to do good. Then two men well past their prime decide 'well fuck it, he is making bad choices despite his good intentions'. One of them is like 'I wanna wash the dishonor that was done to me with his blood', and the other be like 'lemme stab him so I can steal his ancestral home because I am the descendant of the Red Kings, bwahahaha'.

And then they did, and they rubbed their hands and congratulated themselves on the job well done, and he was like 'why me?' and the fans were like 'burrnnnnn for your sins'

They committed at least three serious crimes: betraying their respective liege lords, who were allied at a time, killing a defenseless youth, and breaking guest rights. And they got rewarded for that.

See for yourself.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

And that's just re: Others.

There is also a question of morality there. Say you have a 16-year-old who is generally likeable and who strives to do good. Then two men well past their prime decide 'well fuck it, he is making bad choices despite his good intentions'. One of them is like 'I wanna wash the dishonor that was done to me with his blood', and the other be like 'lemme stab him so I can steal his ancestral home because I am the descendant of the Red Kings, bwahahaha'.

And then they did, and they rubbed their hands and congratulated themselves on the job well done, and he was like 'why me?' and the fans were like 'burrnnnnn for your sins'

They committed at least three serious crimes: betraying their respective liege lords, who were allied at a time, killing a defenseless youth, and breaking guest rights. And they got rewarded for that.

See for yourself.

That's the show, we don't discuss that here. 

But none of the 3 of us are saying the RW was right in the slightest or that we thought Robb deserved to die so I'm not sure what the point is. 

[Eternally_Theirs]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's the show, we don't discuss that here. 

But none of the 3 of us are saying the RW was right in the slightest or that we thought Robb deserved to die so I'm not sure what the point is. 

You're implying it nonetheless.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, DR Supporter said:

You're implying it nonetheless.

No, lol we are not. I haven't seen one thing that implied that & I certainly am not because that is not what I think. 

[Eternally_Theirs]

Then read all the posts in this thread again and tell me this wasn't implied in any of them.

[Back in Black-Snow]

5 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

Then read all the posts in this thread again and tell me this wasn't implied in any of them.

Figured I would chime in here. I just read this thread and think you have no legs.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

Then read all the posts in this thread again and tell me this wasn't implied in any of them.

I have read them all & no, absolutely not. None of them have implied Robb should die for his sins. 

[sweetsunray]

57 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

1 & 2. He might have listened, eventually, if Roose didn't nip that chance in the bud.

Yes, he might have, just as other people eventually end up listening to Jon.

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3. That is supposing that Rickon would think that Jon ought to be listened to, which he might not.

We know that Rickon wants to be united most of all with his family.

We also know that the Starks are connected to each other's wolves. Both Jon and Bran can sense the whereabouts of their siblings (or at least their siblings's wolves) via that bond.

We also know that Rickon is a strong warg, deeply connected with Shaggy and that he had a dream about Ned as strongly as Bran had. He was just too young at the time to fully understand it all.

He's still young, but not a toddler anymore. It is indeed very likely that he would identify with Jon and would listen to him. In his warg dreams he would have seen glimpses of Ghost's journey north of the Wall, just like his siblings dream of Shaggy taking down a unicorn at Skagos.

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4. And that makes Roose/Stannis/Alys more likely to help how? The North (and South) won't listen to Stannis because they don't view him as their King. They won't listen to wildlings/mountain clans because they deem them as a threat. They won't listen to Roose because he stabbed their King - one that they chose - in the heart.

Actually, Northerners who aren't traitors are fighting on Stannis' side against Roose: mountain clans, Umbers. These are the men who deem wildlings as a threat, and yet they fight alongside Stannis and come down to the Wall and listen to Jon who's letting wildlings through.

And no, the mountain clans of the North are not seen as a threat whatsoever by the other Northern lords. You do know that there have been Lord Starks who were wed to a daughter of the mountain clans of the North, right? That a woman of the mountain clans has been Lady of WF?

Alys is now married to a wildling, the Magnar of the Thenns. She's indebted to Jon for her life, for not being wed to her nasty cousin Cregan and for gaining her own disciplined contingent of wildlings who can wield a sword. On top of it all, the Thenns are some of the most northern tribes, from beyond the Frostfangs, so they have seen a lot.

And it's not just the Umbers or mountain clans fighting alongside Stannis. Lady Glover is also a friend to Stannis now, and the Mormonts have joined Stannis too, despite initially writing they have no other king whose name is Stark.

Seems to me, you're relying way too much on Northern attitudes about widlings from the show.

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5. And? None of the people who listened to him are Wardens of the North as far as I know, and it's ultimately Warden of the North's decision, not theirs.

Change of goal posts and a claim that falls flat against all those Northerners not caring one iota what Roose decides or doesn't decide for the moment.

Now ,let me also provide other arguments that reveal how much Robb would be a problem for the Wall. Let's say that Robb wasn't killed at the Twins, that instead Walder Frey was happy with at least having a future Lady Tully of Riverrun, and that he would give Robb 2000 men to chase out the Ironborn; that Robb could start to execute his plan to retake the North from the Ironborn, starting with Moat Cailin.

If that happened then the Wall would have been fucked, you know that right? Because while Robb is sending a large number of men to their death to retake Moat Cailin from the south, even via the surrounding marshes of the Neck with the help of crannogmen guides, Mance would be attacking the Wall. Slynt and Allisser would still send Jon as negotiator to kill Mance. What we wouldn't have though is Stannis sailing North and come to the call of aid. He was dead set against negotiating anything with Robb for declaring himself kind and taking two regions out of the 7K. I agree that was a mistake by Stannis that cost him KL, but well that was the man he was at the time at Dragonstone deliberating what he should do. There's just no way Stannis would have sailed for Eastwatch, while Robb lived and tried to re-invade the North. The consequence would either be that Jon dies and Slynt becomes LC, and Slynt doesn't believe in wights and Others, so Robb never even gets a chance to "listen and help" until it's too late. Alternatively, the wildlings manage to storm the gate because of the incompetence of Bowen and cowardice of Slynt, and just created an easy passage for the Others in the future.

It's not just that Robb potentially would have ignored Jon's call for help, or most likely delayed it by arguing he needs to rebuild WF first and hunt this or that man. It's that Robb would have been in some remote location fighting without being reachable and in no position to come to Jon's or the Wall's aid from where he was. And once he has a victory over the Ironborn, he'd have to content with Slynt as LC of the Wall, or wildlings would have gotten through without having to kneel to Stannis or deliver hostages to Jon. And there's no way that Slynt would take the threat of the Others serious until it's too late, and even if he did, there's no way that Robb would listen to Slynt, suspecting a trap. Hell, if wildlings managed to invade the Gift, Robb would suspect Slynt of letting them pass (and getting his brother Jon killed) and attack the Wall from the South, making it easier for the Others.

[sweetsunray]

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I have read them all & no, absolutely not. None of them have implied Robb should die for his sins. 

^This. We certainly do think that Freys and Boltons should die for their sins, and very much looking forward to tWoW.

Robb didn't deserve to die, certainly not in the way he did. I love Robb, for the person he is, or trying to be. But I also recognize that he made mistakes when it came to certain priorities he should have taken into consideration as king or warden. He had a responsibility towards the North and he failed it. No matter how much it hurts to read it or say, in a way it is objectively true - he was a king who lost the North, and it wasn't all on Ramsay and Roose or Freys or even Theon. Robb went souhth and was too focused on kicking Lannister ass and neglected his duties to the North as ruler (and no I don't mean bethrothal duties), but governance: if a castle ends up without a clear heir, Robb should have settled on that ASAP. If there's a king beyond the Wall potentially threatening to invade the North, you don't turn your back on him and go South with the risk of ending up trapped, while your home may be raided by wildlings. It weren't the wildlings after all, but worse - his best friend raided it and his highest miltiary commander from the North (Blackfish is south) took ownership of it. They betrayed him, but he trusted them against warnings and/or his own gut. He didn't even listen to his own gut or his wolf. 

[Eternally_Theirs]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

^This. We certainly do think that Freys and Boltons should die for their sins, and very much looking forward to tWoW.

Robb didn't deserve to die, certainly not in the way he did. I love Robb, for the person he is, or trying to be. But I also recognize that he made mistakes when it came to certain priorities he should have taken into consideration as king or warden. He had a responsibility towards the North and he failed it. No matter how much it hurts to read it or say, in a way it is objectively true - he was a king who lost the North, and it wasn't all on Ramsay and Roose or Freys or even Theon. Robb went souhth and was too focused on kicking Lannister ass and neglected his duties to the North as ruler (and no I don't mean bethrothal duties), but governance: if a castle ends up without a clear heir, Robb should have settled on that ASAP. If there's a king beyond the Wall potentially threatening to invade the North, you don't turn your back on him and go South with the risk of ending up trapped, while your home may be raided by wildlings. It weren't the wildlings after all, but worse - his best friend raided it and his highest miltiary commander from the North (Blackfish is south) took ownership of it. They betrayed him, but he trusted them against warnings and/or his own gut. He didn't even listen to his own gut or his wolf. 

And it's precisely the posts like this one that make me think you're implying it. Sure, you say you aren't, but then you make posts such as this one, detailing all the reasons why he 'deserved' to die.

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

And it's precisely the posts like this one that make me think you're implying it. Sure, you say you aren't, but then you make posts such as this one, detailing all the reasons why he 'deserved' to die.

No, you're mistaking honestly discussing his mistakes and flaws with victim blaming. It's just that Robb isn't perfect or flawless.

And I don't "imply". Instead of reading between the lines to look for enemies of Robb in every post, perhaps accept that people mean what they write in a post literally.

[Eternally_Theirs]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, you're mistaking honestly discussing his mistakes and flaws with victim blaming. It's just that Robb isn't perfect or flawless.

And you're using his mistakes to justify one of the conspirators wanting to 'wash away their dishonor' with his blood, while the other stabbed him in order to gain his ancestral castle, betraying their respective liege lords in the process. In medieval times that the book is set in, betraying your liege lord(s) is a serious crime that usually ends with the betrayer's execution.

 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, DR Supporter said:

And you're using his mistakes to justify one of the conspirators wanting to 'wash away their dishonor' with his blood, while the other stabbed him in order to gain his ancestral castle.

@sweetsunray is not in any way, shape or form justifying the horrific, inexcusable and treacherous way in which Robb was killed, and I don’t even understand how that’s what you take away from her post. 

[Eternally_Theirs]

Also, isn't what they did victim blaming too?

Walder Frey: Oh, so he did what he did to preserve a girl's honor, and he was willing to bend over backwards to please me? No matter, I'll lure him into a trap and kill all of his men and leave him for last, and I'll sacrifice my innocent grandson while I am at it!

Roose Bolton: Let me stab him! Let me take his castle! LoL!

Jinglebell: Grandpa, no.....

Ryman: Grandpa yes.

Robb: Why me?

Jinglebell: Unjustly Murdered Youths Society. UMYS for short. Is it a go?

Robb: It is.

[Free Northman Reborn]

He would slip into the Neck, return to the North, use White Harbor as a base to  raise a new army, kick the Ironborn out of the North, eradicate the Boltons and fortify Moat Cailin. 

The North would be secure, but the Riverlands would have to be abandoned for now.

At some point in the future the Wolves would descend on the Twins and Theon Stark their asses. With heads mounted on poles every mile along the Causeway, warning southroners of the fate that awaits any who dare approach the North uninvited.

[Bowen 747]

He would have been sent to the Wall.  Although his reputation for a dishonorable oathbreaker would mean he will need watching. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Bowen 747 said:

He would have been sent to the Wall.  Although his reputation for a dishonorable oathbreaker would mean he will need watching. 

He doesn't have a reputation as a dishonorable oath breaker. 

[Bowen 747]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He doesn't have a reputation as a dishonorable oath breaker. 

He would if he had lived.  He's dead, decapped, and buried.  But if he had lived, yes, he would be known as an oathbreaker.